Israel

[River Don]

That hospital incident is one of many incidents of civilians being killed in Gaza, most of them,  if not all, were deliberate Israeli attacks.

It doesn't mean this was definitely an Israeli attack. You would admit there is some doubt in this case, wouldn't you?

[Bristol Red Rover]

That hospital incident is one of many incidents of civilians being killed in Gaza, most of them,  if not all, were deliberate Israeli attacks.

It doesn't mean this was definitely an Israeli attack. You would admit there is some doubt in this case, wouldn't you?

I think what I said was 100% clear,  including the bit where I said there were a great many other current Israeli crimes. The family told to move,  then targeted by Israel and murdered. The Christian child killed in the Greek Orthodox Church murder. Hundreds of other cases, all sanctioned by Stsrmer, Sunak, Cleverly, Thornberry,  Biden and so many other accomplices.

Why not discuss that? Or are you of the mind that an Israel cleared of the hospital bombing (by real balanced means, or even the likely pro Israel means) is in some way acting with humanity, or has been boxed into a corner, or isn't encouraged in the murder by western leaders?

[River Don]

That hospital incident is one of many incidents of civilians being killed in Gaza, most of them,  if not all, were deliberate Israeli attacks.

It doesn't mean this was definitely an Israeli attack. You would admit there is some doubt in this case, wouldn't you?

I think what I said was 100% clear,  including the bit where I said there were a great many other current Israeli crimes. The family told to move,  then targeted by Israel and murdered. The Christian child killed in the Greek Orthodox Church murder. Hundreds of other cases, all sanctioned by Stsrmer, Sunak, Cleverly, Thornberry,  Biden and so many other accomplices.

Why not discuss that? Or are you of the mind that an Israel cleared of the hospital bombing (by real balanced means, or even the likely pro Israel means) is in some way acting with humanity, or has been boxed into a corner, or isn't encouraged in the murder by western leaders?

You can't even bring yourself to admit there is doubt?

Half the world believes Israel deliberately targeted 500 innocent people and they are furious about it. But Israel may well  not have.

Personally I think there has been enough killing of innocents on both sides for a ceasefire to be called now. I think we're on the verge of something very dangerous, with implications that go way beyond Israel and both sides need to pull back.

I don't think that's going to happen though.

[Colemans Left Hook]

 For the non goldfish out there Thank you Tony Blair the blood will never wash off your legacy

[Bristol Red Rover]

You can't even bring yourself to admit there is doubt?

Half the world believes Israel deliberately targeted 500 innocent people and they are furious about it. But Israel may well  not have.

Personally I think there has been enough killing of innocents on both sides for a ceasefire to be called now. I think we're on the verge of something very dangerous, with implications that go way beyond Israel and both sides need to pull back.

I don't think that's going to happen though.

Yes, there is doubt over slot in the immediacy of war,  that included. That's what I was saying. But the weight of murderous actions falls on Israel, it consistently has done throughout its existence.

The west's leaders with their "stand behind Israel stance have ramped this up. It is deliberate and disgusting, and does fit with a Zionists conspiracy. Why else be so warmongering?

I see people losing their jobs for daring to be anti Israel. That state is filth that courses throughout the west.

[MachoMadness]

There's no Zionist conspiracy. The US (and by extension the West) will support anything Israel does, up to and including genocide of the Palestinian people, because Israel is important to its interests in the region. But rather than admit that they're fine with wiping millions of people off the map for cynical realpolitik reasons, they dress it up in all this pearl-clutching. It's no more complex than that.

The US controls Israel, not the other way around.

[Bristol Red Rover]

To be clear, I said it fits with a Zionist conspiracy.

Yes, Israel is a Western outpost in the middle east. If it wasn't there then other nations would be used in the same way - Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, anywhere. The whole politics there would be different.

Israel is there because lots of people with big political influence in the west and especially the US and UK, wanted it there for perverse religious reasons. Mainly Christians, but also a lot of Jews. Since its creation it also serves other purposes, including being that military outpost. Even now, the US could switch to using some other nation in the region as that outpost - the cost would likely be far less.

When you say the US controls Israel - you have to see it in the context of the above, plus ask "who" in the US is wanting Israel there and why.

But getting back to the western leaders saying what they have said, how can that hypocrisy, and evil be justified, and continually has been justified in the same way since Israel was created. Just for the sake of a military outpost? I think you can sense there is more than that. In Biden its more just being the mouthpiece for policy and US domination, but the ferver in Starmer and some others, is palpable. It's insane.

[glosterred]

Found this and all those saying Isreal has committed war crimes

[Bristol Red Rover]

Found this and all those saying Isreal has committed war crimes

As you will also know, any "defence" has to be proportionate. Sure there is some flexibility around that. So, imagine someone has been punched by someone in the past, and has heard a threat that the person will beat their living brains out. Do you think it is the case that, in law, it is allowed for that threatened person to get a bunch of mates, a posse, together and go lynch that other man? That's what the article implies, very much so, and therefore what you are saying.

An indeed what our "human rights lawyer" is saying. Plus of course boy wonder Sunak, and brain dead Biden. And all those hangers on like Cleverly, Thornberry, the Board of Deputies. Complicit in murder the lot of them.

[glosterred]

As the letter says

“What is reasonable must be judged against the severity of the threatened outcome, which in Israel’s case, would be violent extinction.”

So any defence in Israel’s case would be proportional

[albie]

On the issue of proportion, here is the UN data from earlier years leading up to the current conflict;
https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF83O6HnWwAA48GY.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp

Some of the reasons for the disparity are;
1) a brutal 50 year occupation
2) a blockade of Gaza
3) continued settlement expansion in the West Bank
4) IDF snipers shooting protesters
5) carpet bombing Gaza
6) targeting civilian infrastructure

Much more besides, so what is the appropriate proportionate response to that documented history?

[DRFC_AjA]

Don't worry everyone,  the LGBQWERTY community is backing Palestine  yes, the people who would probably stone them in they went to Palestine 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V04FrWOH_0Y&pp=ygUTR2F5cyBmb3IgcGFsaWVzdGluZQ%3D%3D

[selby]

  Bristol, it is war and all the wars in my lifetime anyone who is interested in the slightest picks a side, and the others are the wrong doers, when both are, because soldiers are trained to kill as the opposition is going to kill them if they don't get in first.
  Someone writing down the rules of war and waving their pieces of paper will not save anyone's life when the soldiers are in battle, add to that the hatred both sides in this conflict have for each other, and their on both sides total disdain and lack of sympathy for civilians in the area and you have what is unfolding before our eyes, both news agencies depicting the horrors committed by the other side, when their side are doing exactly the same things if they can get into a position to do so, killing and warmongering is what both sides have been training and planning for years.
  So us bystanders at the moment pick a side and go along with them, your sympathy is with the Palestinians others Israel, very few will change their mind. It's not worth arguing about, its gone too far what will be will be now, the same in Ukraine. 

[River Don]

No. I refuse to pick a side, even though a member of our family by marriage is an Israeli Jew who happens to have discovered one of her best friends has had her mother abducted. One of my best friends at school was an Egyption Muslim, his Dad of course being a doctor working in the NHS.

It may be because I have never had religious beliefs, for me what it comes down to essentially is a massive blood feud over fairy tales. I can't comprehend how people can actually murder one another about it. It is insanity.

As far as I'm concerned eventually there has to be a political solution. Things have calmed down massively in Ireland in my lifetime. It hasn't gone away yet but it shows things can change. Attitudes can change and people can change.

[albie]

Preliminary forensics now looking at the claims made by the Israelis after the hospital bombing, reported by Ch4News;
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1715437255840407552/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/A75k01Pv8pwBD8Lz.mp4?tag=12

It seems that the "evidence" produced by the IDF has been manipulated, and should be disregarded.
It does not give proof of what did happen, but appears to rule out some of the IDF explanations.
As has been pointed out, they have form for this sort of deception.

Still, there will be useful idiots who repeat the propaganda to all who will listen.

[selby]

  Albie, the hospital thing has gone, done, dusted, only something to argue about, the media using it on both sides to blame the other side, who did it does it matter? just something to argue about that cannot be put back right, just like the shooting down of the Dutch airliner in the Ukraine nothing will be done about it for years if at all.
  My fear is there will be worse things to come, the Israelis seem intent on flattening the place if that is what it takes to get rid of Hamas, and are doing it without a full scale invasion at the moment.

[River Don]

Preliminary forensics now looking at the claims made by the Israelis after the hospital bombing, reported by Ch4News;
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1715437255840407552/pu/vid/avc1/1280x720/A75k01Pv8pwBD8Lz.mp4?tag=12

It seems that the "evidence" produced by the IDF has been manipulated, and should be disregarded.
It does not give proof of what did happen, but appears to rule out some of the IDF explanations.
As has been pointed out, they have form for this sort of deception.

Still, there will be useful idiots who repeat the propaganda to all who will listen.

This report is produced by Earshot. An entity of one Lawrence Abu Hamdan, an artist based in Beirut, born in Jordan who grew up in York.

He seems to do an awful lot of work investigating Israeli actions. A quick Google reveals this about his working practices...

His way of investigating refuses the classic modes of critique, implicating himself into the story he is analyzing, and using the tools he has available, as well as his training as an artist, in order to produce an aesthetic outcome which collapses the question and the relationship between aesthetics and politics. For Abu Hamdan any aesthetic has a political impact and implications, as well as critical consequences. Aesthetics can produce narratives as well.

....now to me an artist who is refusing "classic modes of critique" and using "aesthetics to produce narratives" doesn't appear to be particularly forensic.

It is unconventional, I'm not dismissing this, I just wondered where this evidence was coming from and how reliable it is. There maybe more to it.

[BobG]

I've never understood why both sides, but especially the Israelis as the newcomers, don't remind themselves that when something isn't working doing more and more of the same, will absolutely not change the outcome.

No matter what one might think of Tony Blair and his government , at least he realised that more and more of the same in Ulster just would not do. Colombia and FARC. Perú and Sendero Luminoso. Even Spain and ETA. There's plenty of examples around that all these cretins could look at. Just what future does more of the same offer both sides???? Israel will never 'crush' Hamas no matter how violent they become. Hamas will never eject the Israelis.

Brain dead the lot of 'em.

If something isn't working then change what you do!! f**king rocket science that eh??

BobG

[River Don]

Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.

[wilts rover]

Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.

Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.

The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?

And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.

[River Don]

Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.

Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.

The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?

And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.

They aren't going to eliminate 2 million Gazans. Even if they push them all off the land, which I doubt they will, those people will still exist somewhere, Egypt, the West Bank, Jordan, Labanon, somewhere.  The consequence will likely be another radicalised generation bent on revenge and more violence in future.

[DRFC_AjA]

That next generation of radicalised individuals is already on a boat ready to be safely let into this country courtesy of the liberals.

[danumdon]

I've never understood why both sides, but especially the Israelis as the newcomers, don't remind themselves that when something isn't working doing more and more of the same, will absolutely not change the outcome.

No matter what one might think of Tony Blair and his government , at least he realised that more and more of the same in Ulster just would not do. Colombia and FARC. Perú and Sendero Luminoso. Even Spain and ETA. There's plenty of examples around that all these cretins could look at. Just what future does more of the same offer both sides???? Israel will never 'crush' Hamas no matter how violent they become. Hamas will never eject the Israelis.

Brain dead the lot of 'em.

If something isn't working then change what you do!! f**king rocket science that eh??

BobG

I think like someone else said previously the parallel to be draw is with the lessons learnt in Northern Ireland.

No issue is totally unsolvable but it marks a very a very big difference when your main sponsors realise what their blood money has been achieving.

Once the Irish American lobby realised what in effect they were buying into the whole bubble burst.

Its going to take the same sort of mindset from the Israeli lobby in the states for this problem to reach some sort of a conclusion. These atrocities may just be the start, i'm thinking its going to get very much worse before it can get better.

[BobG]

There must be a good chance of that DD. And that worries me even more. Imagine if Israel really does go in as they say they will. What odds then on a huge broadening of the scope and scale of the conflict? The consequences of that for us all are incalculable - though it's easy to see the probable result in Ukraine.

BobG

[Bristol Red Rover]

As the letter says

“What is reasonable must be judged against the severity of the threatened outcome, which in Israel’s case, would be violent extinction.”

So any defence in Israel’s case would be proportional

Yep, if you violate and oppress a people, they will come after you. However, that genocide theory is bullshit, definitely proposed by the psycho ultra Zionists, a d then promoted by folks that fall for it.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.

Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.

The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?

And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.

Israel can't anhilate Hamas. They can treat all people with respect. They constantly choose not to. Those right wing Zionists, and all the apologists for them I clouding the moderate Israelis, and most definitely the likes of Starmer,  are the problem.

[ravenrover]

Educate me please how can Israel wipe out Hamas? They are basically a guerilla organisation hidng amongst the civilian population. Unless Israel intends to round up every male from early teenager onwards they will never wipe it out

[wilts rover]

Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza through military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.

Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.

The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?

And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.

Israel can't anhilate Hamas. They can treat all people with respect. They constantly choose not to. Those right wing Zionists, and all the apologists for them I clouding the moderate Israelis, and most definitely the likes of Starmer,  are the problem.

Read that again. Israel can anhilate Hamas - in Gaza.

[DonnyOsmond]

That next generation of radicalised individuals is already on a boat ready to be safely let into this country courtesy of the liberals.

F*cking hell you're boring.

[River Don]

Yep Bob. Hamas can't eject the Israelis and Israel can't succeed in their objective of anhilating Hamas in Gaza ifthrough military means. What this will be doing is hardening attitudes and radicalising new generations.

Oh Israel can certainly anhilate Hamas in Gaza. They can anhilate Gaza itself and probably intend to.

The question the rest of the world should be asking is will the consequences from that action across the world be worth it?

And as I said previously - as soon as you pick one side in this conflict (probably without ever going there) - you are responsible for prolonging it. Not the other side.

Israel can't anhilate Hamas. They can treat all people with respect. They constantly choose not to. Those right wing Zionists, and all the apologists for them I clouding the moderate Israelis, and most definitely the likes of Starmer,  are the problem.

Read that again. Israel can anhilate Hamas - in Gaza.

Alright if you're being pedantic, it might be possible to remove the Hamas threat from Gaza if the objective is a landgrab but it would be highly controversial and very, very difficult and costly. My point is it won't get rid of the Palestinian extremists anyway.