Israel

[Sprotyrover]

A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!

[SydneyRover]

A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!

Your logic is a bit off sprot, vis a vis: don't worry I only punched you in the nose but I could have kicked you in the nuts and run over you, so that makes this ok.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.

Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.

So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.

It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.

I'm glad to see you are so up on international law Albie.

The 1 Hamas figure you mention, in this case was a very senior military leader, said to have planned the attack that killed 1500 Israelis. And he had, apparently, located himself in the middle of a refugee camp.

Ask yourself if, during WWII, the Allies had located, say, Himmler, and launched an attack that killed him and in doing so also killed several thousand civilians. Would that have been a war crime?

BST insinuating that Hamas has a lot of Himmlers, and that they have killed or will kill several million civilians. Or maybe he could be clearer with his points and not make wild rhetorically exaggerated, misleading similies.

[BobG]

I'm  afraid that is an entirely tendentious post BRR.

The question Billy asked is both lucid and logical. From the manner and tone of your response to the question I'm sad to say that agenda appears to have wholly overridden sense.

Regards

BobG

[ncRover]

https://x.com/keir_starmer/status/1719410392445644949?s=46

Starmer speaking well on this issue. Sounds like a leader.

As long as Hamas hold power a successful Palestinian state and the alleviation of the suffering of its people is not possible. And Jewish people living in the Middle East would continue to be terrorised.

There was a ceasefire that Hamas agreed to between May 20 2021 and October 6th 2023. If you try to broker peace with “our friends from Hamas” they will use you as a useful idiot and just start planning their next attack.

I find it strange that the far-left try to justify the actions and buy the narrative proposed to them by far-right Islamic fascists. Then try to justify genocidal slogans such as “from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free”. Are they just predisposed to sticking up for the perceived underdog?

That map showing Palestine land loss is misleading, as Palestine has never been a country. Just a name given to an area of land.

Something also needs to be done about the violence and the creeping land grabs from Israeli settlers on the West Bank as this is throwing fuel on the fire as well as being wrong.

Both sides need to back a 2 state solution. 1948 borders is the ideal situation. Does saying so make me an “evil Zionist”? No because if for example you put any Jewish family in a house in Gaza they would be instantly killed.

I’m open to be pointed out by level headed posters if I’m wrong anywhere here.

[i_ateallthepies]

I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.

Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.

So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.

It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.

It seems from this its ok for the 'Freedom Fighters' to commit war crimes.

[ravenrover]

Raven,

Well, I suppose the UN are best considered independent, and they seem to think the figures are sound.

Newsnight interview with Francesca Albanese, UN Rapporteur. ( with apologies for the silly Kirsty Wark );
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1719706563584065536/pu/vid/avc1/1280x712/S7GXn46U1Xn_G4tR.mp4?tag=12
part 2;
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1719703964608823296/pu/vid/avc1/1280x712/TC95TKZBC6qaJ8Ti.mp4?tag=12

The United Nations have condemned the actions of Israel as genocide:
https://nitter.net/pic/media%2FF92JhsBWYAEyUQF.jpg%3Fname%3Dsmall%26format%3Dwebp

Just under 50% of the Gaza population are children and adolescents, so bombing the civilian infrastructure will knowingly impact these groups.

Thanks for the reply Albie you are the only one, the answer then is no

[ncRover]

https://x.com/memrireports/status/1719662664090075199?s=46

[Bristol Red Rover]

I'm  afraid that is an entirely tendentious post BRR.

The question Billy asked is both lucid and logical. From the manner and tone of your response to the question I'm sad to say that agenda appears to have wholly overridden sense.

Regards

BobG

The character of his point may or may not hold water, the scales, proportions are what are wildly rhetorical and misleading.

[albie]

Raven,

The number of children killed in Gaza is over 3500, a figure given by the UN and international humanitarian agencies...so the answer is yes.

Pies,

No, that is not true, and I pointed out in post 497 that the Hamas actions were a war crime.

ncRover,

All of your post 514 is misleading, except where you say:
"Something also needs to be done about the violence and the creeping land grabs from Israeli settlers on the West Bank as this is throwing fuel on the fire as well as being wrong"...this is true.

Israel is opposed to a 2 state solution, and has been for many years.
Your claim that "you put any Jewish family in a house in Gaza they would be instantly killed"...err, you seem to be unaware of the influx of settlers from Israel across the Palestinian territories which has been going on for years.

No-one is justifying the actions of Hamas at all, they are gross.
The circumstances which lead to Palestinian resistance will continue, even if certain individuals are removed.
The root cause of the dispute is occupation of the land, and settler colonialism.

[albie]

BST,

The reference to Himmler is very disturbing and strange. The idea that a bomb or missile can be justified by reference to the off chance of hitting one specific person in a crowd is both unlawful and unethical. Surely that applies to both parties in any conflict.

In WW2, the Nazi forces occupied France, and were opposed by the French resistance.
Are you saying that those under hostile invasion cannot resist to protect their own country?

The occupying force in Palestine is Israel, who have imposed severe sanctions on the local population. It is entirely right that the international community puts pressure on Israel to cease, but in this case, western governments have turned a blind eye.

So if you want Palestinian responses to be more moderate, perhaps make sure that Israel withdraws from occupation to its own borders might be a start.
That includes removing Israeli settlers back to their own land.

Once again the UN giving a view on the Israeli actions:
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1720015937154289664/pu/vid/avc1/720x720/689uI61_H52WnF6N.mp4?tag=12

[glosterred]

As a matter of interest Albie where are the UN getting their casualty figures from?

[albie]

Here you go, glosterred;
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

Verified by external sources, and recognised as the best data source by humanitarian organisations.

[glosterred]

Here you go, glosterred;
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

Verified by external sources, and recognised as the best data source by humanitarian organisations.

Have you read the disclaimer at the bottom of the page which says that the figures are provided by the Ministry of Health (Hamas) and Israel and are not yet independently verified?

https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-26

[albie]

The verification is an ongoing process, I presume.

With the figures changing constantly, best to see the most recent as subject to change, but within an uncertainty bound.

This is the most reliable dataset to hand, and is recognised as such.

[glosterred]

I have got to say any numbers coming out of the Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) have to be taken with a large pinch of salt after 500-800 killed in a self inflicted rocket attack that turned out to be approx 50 and 400 in the killing of a Hamas leader which also turned out to be 50 and those where probably Hamas terrorists. So until fully verified I ain’t believing those figures

[wilts rover]

A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!

They also have nuclear bombs & missiles.

So they have only killed a few thousand women & children and injured tens of thousands more - how lucky they are when they could have killed hundreds of thousands and injured millions all across the Near East.

[wilts rover]

As a matter of interest Albie where are the UN getting their casualty figures from?

UN staff in Gaza. 62 of whom have been killed so far. Definitely.

Where are the IDF getting their figures from?

[wilts rover]

I have got to say any numbers coming out of the Gaza Ministry of Health (Hamas) have to be taken with a large pinch of salt after 500-800 killed in a self inflicted rocket attack that turned out to be approx 50 and 400 in the killing of a Hamas leader which also turned out to be 50 and those where probably Hamas terrorists. So until fully verified I ain’t believing those figures

No problem - I dont believe your figures seeing as you are several thousand miles away.

[Nudga]

Rockets fired into Israel from Lebanon tonight

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST,

The reference to Himmler is very disturbing and strange. The idea that a bomb or missile can be justified by reference to the off chance of hitting one specific person in a crowd is both unlawful and unethical. Surely that applies to both parties in any conflict.

In WW2, the Nazi forces occupied France, and were opposed by the French resistance.
Are you saying that those under hostile invasion cannot resist to protect their own country?

The occupying force in Palestine is Israel, who have imposed severe sanctions on the local population. It is entirely right that the international community puts pressure on Israel to cease, but in this case, western governments have turned a blind eye.

So if you want Palestinian responses to be more moderate, perhaps make sure that Israel withdraws from occupation to its own borders might be a start.
That includes removing Israeli settlers back to their own land.

Once again the UN giving a view on the Israeli actions:
https://video.twimg.com/ext_tw_video/1720015937154289664/pu/vid/avc1/720x720/689uI61_H52WnF6N.mp4?tag=12

Albie.

You're rambling away from the point as you tend to do, but I'll follow you. Are you seriously comparing Hamas to the French Resistance?

[Sprotyrover]

A note for folks who think The IDF is being heavy handed, The Israeli Air Force has Circa 320 very modern air craft(f15, f16,F35 , 80 apache Helicopters.) each capable of carrying 8 tons of Bombs, they could turn the Gaza Strip into a pile of Ash in a single night, they could ‘merry go round’ and each plane could easily make 4 sorties in 8 hours, that’s about 10,000 tons of Bombs, they would create a fire storm and that would be that!

Your logic is a bit off sprot, vis a vis: don't worry I only punched you in the nose but I could have kicked you in the nuts and run over you, so that makes this ok.

Congratulations you got a like from Bristol red rover!

[MachoMadness]

I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.

Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.

So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.

It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.

I'm glad to see you are so up on international law Albie.

The 1 Hamas figure you mention, in this case was a very senior military leader, said to have planned the attack that killed 1500 Israelis. And he had, apparently, located himself in the middle of a refugee camp.

Ask yourself if, during WWII, the Allies had located, say, Himmler, and launched an attack that killed him and in doing so also killed several thousand civilians. Would that have been a war crime?

Next time a far right nutjob shoots up a school in America and locks himself inside, Biden should just give the order to level the place with ballistic missiles.

The answer to your question is yes, by the way.

[wilts rover]

Rockets fired into Israel from Lebanon tonight

Not good.

[ncRover]

Raven,

The number of children killed in Gaza is over 3500, a figure given by the UN and international humanitarian agencies...so the answer is yes.

Pies,

No, that is not true, and I pointed out in post 497 that the Hamas actions were a war crime.

ncRover,

All of your post 514 is misleading, except where you say:
"Something also needs to be done about the violence and the creeping land grabs from Israeli settlers on the West Bank as this is throwing fuel on the fire as well as being wrong"...this is true.

Israel is opposed to a 2 state solution, and has been for many years.
Your claim that "you put any Jewish family in a house in Gaza they would be instantly killed"...err, you seem to be unaware of the influx of settlers from Israel across the Palestinian territories which has been going on for years.

No-one is justifying the actions of Hamas at all, they are gross.
The circumstances which lead to Palestinian resistance will continue, even if certain individuals are removed.
The root cause of the dispute is occupation of the land, and settler colonialism.

I was talking about Gaza, Albie.

How many Jews live in Hamas-led independent since 2005 Gaza?

When you say “root cause of the dispute is occupation of the land” what land do you mean? From the river to the sea?

Where was I misleading on Hamas not wanting peace? Did you see the comments made by Gahzi Hamad on Lebanese TV?

“Israel is a country that has no place on our land, we must remove that country. We are not ashamed to say that, with full force.”

“The Al-Asqa flood is just the first time. There will be a second, a third, a fourth”

“Will we have to pay a price? Yes. And we are ready to pay it. We are called a nation of martyrs and we are proud to sacrifice martyrs.”

“The occupation must come to an end”

Reporter: “of the Gaza Strip?”

“No, I am talking about all of the Palestinian lands”

Reporter: “does that mean the annihilation of Israel?”

“Yes, of course”.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.

Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.

So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.

It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.

I'm glad to see you are so up on international law Albie.

The 1 Hamas figure you mention, in this case was a very senior military leader, said to have planned the attack that killed 1500 Israelis. And he had, apparently, located himself in the middle of a refugee camp.

Ask yourself if, during WWII, the Allies had located, say, Himmler, and launched an attack that killed him and in doing so also killed several thousand civilians. Would that have been a war crime?

Next time a far right nutjob shoots up a school in America and locks himself inside, Biden should just give the order to level the place with ballistic missiles.

The answer to your question is yes, by the way.

I'm very surprised at you on both those comments.

You are legally wrong about the second. It would pass ANY assessment of "proportionality".

As for the first comment, that's just childish silliness.

[wilts rover]

Amichai Eliyahu, far-right nationalist & Heritage Minister in Netanyahun's government:

North Gaza in now more beautiful than ever.

Blowing up everything is amazing.

When finished we will hand over the lands of Gaza to the soldiers doing the fighting & the settlers who lived in Gush Katif.

https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719959469067550824

[BillyStubbsTears]

Amichai Eliyahu, far-right nationalist & Heritage Minister in Netanyahun's government:

North Gaza in now more beautiful than ever.

Blowing up everything is amazing.

When finished we will hand over the lands of Gaza to the soldiers doing the fighting & the settlers who lived in Gush Katif.

https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719959469067550824

Disgusting comments. He should be arraigned by the Hague International Court.

[ncRover]

Amichai Eliyahu, far-right nationalist & Heritage Minister in Netanyahun's government:

North Gaza in now more beautiful than ever.

Blowing up everything is amazing.

When finished we will hand over the lands of Gaza to the soldiers doing the fighting & the settlers who lived in Gush Katif.

https://twitter.com/clashreport/status/1719959469067550824

Also bad.

[MachoMadness]

I fully answered it in post 497, Billy.

Israel must observe international law.
That means that they cannot bomb indiscriminately, and without proportion.

So bombing a refugee camp in pursuit of 1 Hamas figure is unlawful, because the military objective does not justify the cost in terms of innocent lives.

It is really very clear, and not in any way subject to doubt.

I'm glad to see you are so up on international law Albie.

The 1 Hamas figure you mention, in this case was a very senior military leader, said to have planned the attack that killed 1500 Israelis. And he had, apparently, located himself in the middle of a refugee camp.

Ask yourself if, during WWII, the Allies had located, say, Himmler, and launched an attack that killed him and in doing so also killed several thousand civilians. Would that have been a war crime?

Next time a far right nutjob shoots up a school in America and locks himself inside, Biden should just give the order to level the place with ballistic missiles.

The answer to your question is yes, by the way.

I'm very surprised at you on both those comments.

You are legally wrong about the second. It would pass ANY assessment of "proportionality".

As for the first comment, that's just childish silliness.

I am equally surprised to see you equivocating over the bombing of a refugee camp.

Childish and silly, perhaps. But unserious WWII analogies invite that.

Gaza is an open air prison. So of course Hamas are embedding themselves among civilians. The answer to that problem cannot be the kind of indiscriminate savagery we see from Russia.