Israel

[SydneyRover]

then it's good that you are a such lousy predictor of the future selby and forgetful of the past.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Yes NC, the ICJ ruling is an interim one. So far they have upheld the complaint and emphasised actions to be taken eg to avoid killing civilians etc. You can Google the rest. Israel is bound by this. The US and UK and bound to stop supporting Israel in any acts of genocide which is all very clear.

Israel hasn't changed tack, thereby being in violation of the ICJ to which it is a signed up member. Starmer, Sunak and Biden have gone quiet. I wonder what's next?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Actually Starmer might be quiet but is not inactive. He's suspended an MP, Kate Osamor, for naming the Israeli action in Gaza as genocide - the day after the ICJ ruled that there is a plausible, credible case of genocide there. She even later apologised (unnecessarily) for mentioning that alongside mentioning the 6 million Jews in Nazi Germany, but was still suspended.

And note that the UNRWA issue was publicised by Israel on the same day as the ICJ ruling despite having known all the info for weeks/months. Cynical media manipulation? Surely not. And the BBC, western media lapped this up. Sick. Israel have wanted shot of UNRWA for decades, primarily to oust Palestinians.

More so, by impeding and restricting the humanitarian assistance to Gaza an act of genocide is being committed. As said, this is like suspending funding to the NHS because Lucy Letby killed babies. The US is now more than complicit in genocide, it is a genocidal nation. Tories support this move, as do Labour - UK lapdogs, shameful, disgusting, embarressing. The perspective is that 12 out of 13,000 are being investigated for potentially taking part on the Oct 7th attack.

[ncRover]

Yes NC, the ICJ ruling is an interim one. So far they have upheld the complaint and emphasised actions to be taken eg to avoid killing civilians etc. You can Google the rest. Israel is bound by this. The US and UK and bound to stop supporting Israel in any acts of genocide which is all very clear.

Israel hasn't changed tack, thereby being in violation of the ICJ to which it is a signed up member. Starmer, Sunak and Biden have gone quiet. I wonder what's next?

We’ll see. I’m happy to admit I’m wrong if so.

You mention civilian deaths, but I think a case will be very hard to conclude on in that respect.

For example:

- According to the Gazan health ministry, how many Hamas fighters have been killed?

- According to the Gazan health ministry, how many Palestinians have been killed by Hamas rockets?

- What is the percentage of civilian deaths in this war compared to other wars? Yes it is a war, Hamas are firing rockets all the time they just don’t make it through.

Again, this is just me taking a sceptical approach to the general thinking on this thread, it’s a good way to help find out the truth for me on things. That’s why I ask you lot questions, it’s more informative than watching the news because there’s an array of political stances.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Yes, lots of IDF dead too. It is a war.

How many Gazan civilians do you think are murdered by Israel so far? It's not hard to see, to discern, beyond the insane Israeli propaganda is it.

Do you agree with the ICJ position? Do you think Israel should abide by that since a few days back? Do you think the Western backers, funders, abettors of Israel should be acting in accordance?

[ncRover]

Actually Starmer might be quiet but is not inactive. He's suspended an MP, Kate Osamor, for naming the Israeli action in Gaza as genocide - the day after the ICJ ruled that there is a plausible, credible case of genocide there. She even later apologised (unnecessarily) for mentioning that alongside mentioning the 6 million Jews in Nazi Germany, but was still suspended.

And note that the UNRWA issue was publicised by Israel on the same day as the ICJ ruling despite having known all the info for weeks/months. Cynical media manipulation? Surely not. And the BBC, western media lapped this up. Sick. Israel have wanted shot of UNRWA for decades, primarily to oust Palestinians.

More so, by impeding and restricting the humanitarian assistance to Gaza an act of genocide is being committed. As said, this is like suspending funding to the NHS because Lucy Letby killed babies. The US is now more than complicit in genocide, it is a genocidal nation. Tories support this move, as do Labour - UK lapdogs, shameful, disgusting, embarressing. The perspective is that 12 out of 13,000 are being investigated for potentially taking part on the Oct 7th attack.

Before I reply to your other post due to being short of time.

You liked Macho’s post saying mine was whataboutery but you can get behind Kate’s words here?

Holocaust Memorial Day is a specific day of remembrance to commemorate and reflect on the fact that the Nazis systematically murdered 6 millions Jews and would have ethnically cleansed them off the face of the earth had they had their way. Along with 5 million prisoners of war.

If she performed similar whataboutery and inversion on any other Memorial Day  / day dedicated to minorities she would be jumped on as a heretic by her fellow “progressives”.

And you I bet you wonder why everybody else thinks the left have an antisemitism problem.

It’s disgusting and Starmer is right to suspend her.

[MachoMadness]

Holocaust Memorial Day is openly, and has always been, inclusive of other genocides. It lists several on its homepage. https://www.hmd.org.uk/

Suspending someone for including Gaza in that list, when an international court has just found Israel has a case to answer for genocide and is under provisional orders to prevent it from occurring, isn't disgusting.

Now, I agree the Holocaust is unique in the way it systematically, methodically murdered people like working numbers through a spreadsheet. There are whole branches of my family tree I'll never meet because of it. It stands alone as an achievement of human cruelty. But the memorial day has always brought in other genocides around the world. Never Again means Never Again after all - apart from when it's politically convenient, apparently.

Really though, this is nowt to do with any of that, and everything to do with internal Labour Party factional bullshit.

[SydneyRover]

That adds a huge chunk of perspective MM

[Bristol Red Rover]

Spot on MM, very well put.

[Bristol Red Rover]

The IDF claims it has eliminated over 2k Hamas fighters. Interesting how that leaves 25k others dead, can't be the IDF were inaccurate with their killing?

Anyway, I was wondering how many Palestinian fighters they have created with extreme hatred for Israel, now and for the future. I suspect a great many more than that 2k, and more extreme too.

[ncRover]

Yes, I think Israel should not carry out acts of genocide and should stop increasing its territory by creep in the West Bank and Gaza. And they should deal with settler violence and heinous crimes.

Any situation that treats human life as a cheap commodity to be thrown away makes me sad. And the images and reports that come from Gaza are tragic.

We have to recognise the full situation and how things got to the point where they are in order for things not to escalate further.

I’m glad we can agree that this is a war. Now, are all victors of every war in history guilty of genocide?

Firstly, without the Iron Dome we would see far far more deaths in this war. That’s a good thing.

Without taking into account the Gazans who were killed by Hamas rockets and by Hamas itself, the ratio is, at the most, 1.8 civilians for every Hamas terrorist killed. (From UK lawyers for Israel).
Figures from the UN for previous wars are as high as 9 civilians for every combatant.
Then throw in the human shield behaviour of Hamas as another factor.

Israel provided days and then weeks of warnings, as well as time for civilians to evacuate multiple cities in northern Gaza before starting the main air-ground attack of urban areas. But then the anti-Israel crowd just beats Israel with a stick saying this is displacement.

And now that Israeli special forces assassinate a Hamas terrorist in a hospital without any civilian casualties you still have Owen Jones complaining? On these people just want Israel to be defenceless? Do you?

Israel is taking more measures to limit civilian casualties than any other war in history. Their measures are summarised here: https://www.newsweek.com/israel-implemented-more-measures-prevent-civilian-casualties-any-other-nation-history-opinion-1865613

I echo the thoughts of the writer. These civilian deaths are a very bad thing.

I also think Palestine should recognise its historical warmongering in the context of the changing borders of that region too. You can say the land was “stolen” all you like, but the UN gave it to Israel in 1948. They started a war in 1967 too. Hamas generals live a life of safety and comfort while putting Gazans in danger and saying they will do it again and again.

20% of Israel’s population are Arab Muslims with equal rights. I haven’t seen many “anti-Zionist” posters on here explain that about Israel in a way that is consistent with their view of Israel being an apartheid state.

One last question.

What would be a non-Zionist way of Israel defending itself?

[ncRover]

Holocaust Memorial Day is openly, and has always been, inclusive of other genocides. It lists several on its homepage. https://www.hmd.org.uk/

Suspending someone for including Gaza in that list, when an international court has just found Israel has a case to answer for genocide and is under provisional orders to prevent it from occurring, isn't disgusting.

Now, I agree the Holocaust is unique in the way it systematically, methodically murdered people like working numbers through a spreadsheet. There are whole branches of my family tree I'll never meet because of it. It stands alone as an achievement of human cruelty. But the memorial day has always brought in other genocides around the world. Never Again means Never Again after all - apart from when it's politically convenient, apparently.

Really though, this is nowt to do with any of that, and everything to do with internal Labour Party factional bullshit.

You always voice and explain your opinion well MM.

She knew it would antagonise and provoke Jewish people. People who are the primary victims remembered in the certain day of memorial.

For a political movement (progressivism) that is predicated on outing any sort of discrimination, the disgust from me comes in realising that they do not hold Jewish people to the same standard.

She would not provoke any other minority in a similar way. That makes it more insidious in my opinion.

The Jewish Labour Movement didn’t like it, and who are we to tell them how to feel on such a day?

As I’ve said before Israel / Palestine is not a black and white Oppressor / Oppressed dynamic

The issue comes when acts of self-defence are conflated with the accusations of genocide. And self-defence is another thing that Jews are obviously held to a different standard on.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Palestine wasn't the UN's to give.

Palestinians were asked to move along specific routes and were killed - shelled/bombed there.

It's not acts of self defence,  it is a consistent policy of getting Palestinians out of their homeland. This is explicit, been said by many Israeli officials,  IDF, ministers. They're bold as brass about it. It is genocide as defined.

Giving Palestine half the land of Israel would be a way of compromise. Not murdering Palestinians would be a way of defending itself. Not creating hundreds of thousands of, rightly, furious kids to become fighters in the future.

So many problems with your posts NC. JLM have a very dubious recent history, as you should know, not least in their manipulation of Labour.

Using info from Lawyers for Israel.... hmmm... How many women and children were "terrorists"? If you really by those figures you're easily manipulated. What's your skin in this?

What lies do you see Israel telling? By Israel I mean IDF, Netanyahu, government ministers and officials.

I guess you won't be shocked by this evil either NC?

It seems Israel is on a mission of digging up graveyards in Gaza. It also seems they are lieing about their reasons.

https://youtu.be/14DaFsTsrt8?si=ROdoWTl7nkoXJoaD

[Bristol Red Rover]

I'd recommend not watching this vid, but if anyone out there is supporting Israel in any way, listen. So disturbing.

A girl talking to the Red Cresent. In fear, hiding in a car when an IDF tank is next to her. She claims they are shooting at her. And then you hear the machine gun shots as she is apparently shot dead. Her 6 year old sister still trapped in the car continues to speak (not on this recording) asking for people to come for her, to help her. Pure evil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=erPIGgnUv08

[tyke1962]

Palestine wasn't the UN's to give.

Palestinians were asked to move along specific routes and were killed - shelled/bombed there.

It's not acts of self defence,  it is a consistent policy of getting Palestinians out of their homeland. This is explicit, been said by many Israeli officials,  IDF, ministers. They're bold as brass about it. It is genocide as defined.

Giving Palestine half the land of Israel would be a way of compromise. Not murdering Palestinians would be a way of defending itself. Not creating hundreds of thousands of, rightly, furious kids to become fighters in the future.

So many problems with your posts NC. JLM have a very dubious recent history, as you should know, not least in their manipulation of Labour.

Using info from Lawyers for Israel.... hmmm... How many women and children were "terrorists"? If you really by those figures you're easily manipulated. What's your skin in this?

What lies do you see Israel telling? By Israel I mean IDF, Netanyahu, government ministers and officials.

I guess you won't be shocked by this evil either NC?

It seems Israel is on a mission of digging up graveyards in Gaza. It also seems they are lieing about their reasons.

https://youtu.be/14DaFsTsrt8?si=ROdoWTl7nkoXJoaD

Why on earth would the Israelis give the Palestinians so much as a blade of grass ?

Other than the airspace the Israelis walked away from Gaza and let the Palestinians have their state .

The first thing the Palestinians did was to elect a terrorist organisation as their government .

Hamas then proceeded to weed out and execute practically anybody who didn't agree with them and paraded the mutilated corpses in the streets of Gaza City .

What are we now in to a Hamas government ? , 18 years is it ?

I bet the Gaza education system in that length of time have produced some real pillars of society , behead Jews , jihad , learn to fire rockets over the border from military points disguised as hospitals , some one day may even land on Israeli soil , you never know .

Fair to say the Palestinians had the opportunity to build a successful state , God knows they had enough money given to them to do just that but instead opted to be a terror state instead whilst their leaders bought mansions in neighbouring states with the money .

Mind you building a successful Islamic State fit for purpose in this day and age is perhaps pushing it no matter how much money is given .

Perhaps the Egyptians could offer a helping hand ? , Israel isn't the only border surrounding Gaza .

Wait a minute , they've tried that before and the Palestinians seem to bring nowt but trouble on their little expeditions in that region as they did in Lebanon , Jordan and Syria .

Not difficult to see who exactly are the problem is it when you dig down in to the weeds .

[Bristol Red Rover]

Racism big in Barnsley is it? You and Israel are evidently a great fit.

[SydneyRover]

''Barnsley ‘breeding ground’ for racist views, report finds'' (28/08/20)


''DECLINE and deprivation in Barnsley have made the town a breeding ground for far-right views, according to a new report.

The Hope Not Hate charitable trust report - part of the think tank’s ‘Hopeful Towns’ project - centres on how feelings of loss or rapid change, as well as economic decline and fewer opportunities, can create ‘pockets of hostility’.

Researchers believe tackling these issues can make areas more optimistic and resilient in the face of divisive narratives peddled by far-right groups - who they note ‘take root where hope is lost... offering simple answers to complex problems in order to stir up hate and division’''

https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19384/barnsley-breeding-ground-for-racist-views-report-finds

[ncRover]

Palestine wasn't the UN's to give.

Palestinians were asked to move along specific routes and were killed - shelled/bombed there.

It's not acts of self defence,  it is a consistent policy of getting Palestinians out of their homeland. This is explicit, been said by many Israeli officials,  IDF, ministers. They're bold as brass about it. It is genocide as defined.

Giving Palestine half the land of Israel would be a way of compromise. Not murdering Palestinians would be a way of defending itself. Not creating hundreds of thousands of, rightly, furious kids to become fighters in the future.

So many problems with your posts NC. JLM have a very dubious recent history, as you should know, not least in their manipulation of Labour.

Using info from Lawyers for Israel.... hmmm... How many women and children were "terrorists"? If you really by those figures you're easily manipulated. What's your skin in this?

What lies do you see Israel telling? By Israel I mean IDF, Netanyahu, government ministers and officials.

I guess you won't be shocked by this evil either NC?

It seems Israel is on a mission of digging up graveyards in Gaza. It also seems they are lieing about their reasons.

https://youtu.be/14DaFsTsrt8?si=ROdoWTl7nkoXJoaD

Why do I need skin in the game? “This person doesn’t agree with me so must be a selfish person who gains benefit somehow.” No I’m just interested in the truth of things. Not following the knee jerk angry mob that were shouting genocide before Israel even retaliated after Oct 7th.

You can’t accuse me of falling for propaganda if you can’t answer the questions in post #933.

Perhaps you could answer my question about how Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population and have the same rights in an apartheid state. I’ve asked you about 3 times now.

Can you answer my question about war too?

I posted the efforts of Israel to minimise civilian casualties because that isn’t the behaviour of a state trying to commit genocide. Do Hamas try to limit Palestinian casualties by tunneling under schools, hospitals and mosques along with firing their rockets from civilian areas?

Israel’s tactics and long term strategy are debatable, yes. But if your ideal personal endgame for this conflict was to come true and Israel wasn’t allowed to defend itself because it shouldn’t exist, the loss of life would be far far greater. They would all be indiscriminately murdered by the millions by Hamas and Hezbollah. And what would you say then?

Unless you have evidence that Jews have ever been able to live in the Middle East alongside Muslims without facing religious persecution?

Or maybe you think Israel can exist and that it should just choose pacifism against those who carried out Oct 7th and continue to launch missiles at its people? Those who believe in martyrdom and vow to attack over and over again. So ultimately it would lead to the same genocidal outcome.

To quote Sam Harris speaking on this “Pacifism only works against a morally sane adversary”. 

Being sceptical of information from Jihadists is perfectly reasonable.

Yet a lot of people are now starting to deny anything wrong even took place on October 7th, does that not upset or concern you?

https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1753108773676495166?s=46

[DRFC_AjA]

Sadly a member of staff from our company got sacked. They tweeted that the Palestine suffering is a hoax, and then also called black people parasites. Rightly so they were sacked

Oohhh hang on no it was BBC employee who called the holocaust a hoax and white people parasites, and they've still got a job at the taxpayer funded impartiality machine

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/bbc-employee-called-jewish-people-nazis-and-whites-parasites/ar-BB1hCO05

[tyke1962]

''Barnsley ‘breeding ground’ for racist views, report finds'' (28/08/20)


''DECLINE and deprivation in Barnsley have made the town a breeding ground for far-right views, according to a new report.

The Hope Not Hate charitable trust report - part of the think tank’s ‘Hopeful Towns’ project - centres on how feelings of loss or rapid change, as well as economic decline and fewer opportunities, can create ‘pockets of hostility’.

Researchers believe tackling these issues can make areas more optimistic and resilient in the face of divisive narratives peddled by far-right groups - who they note ‘take root where hope is lost... offering simple answers to complex problems in order to stir up hate and division’''

https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19384/barnsley-breeding-ground-for-racist-views-report-finds

Is that The Hope And Hate Group who are under investigation by three different Police Forces ?

[tyke1962]

Racism big in Barnsley is it? You and Israel are evidently a great fit.

Anytime you want to challenge the points I raised in my post in an intelligent and credible way I'll be happy to debate with you .

But no that's not how people such as yourself roll is it .

Out comes the card , well unlucky sweetheart because you've dropped on the wrong person to play that one with me .

You'll not silence me with your absurd allegations .

Now then grow the feck up , be a man , stop hiding behind a keyboard 200 miles away and tell me which of the points I've raised aren't the truth .

[SydneyRover]

What you are comes though in your posts tyke, I can only go on what you post.

[ncRover]

What you are comes though in your posts tyke, I can only go on what you post.

How do you think you come across on this site?

[SydneyRover]

What you are comes though in your posts tyke, I can only go on what you post.

How do you think you come across on this site?

Left to far left, bombastic on occasions, opinionated, reasonably politically aware, really really care about others in not as fortunate as myself for any reason, don't suffer fools and you nc?

one thing that maybe can't be seen from the forum, I'm not a bystander.

[wilts rover]

''Barnsley ‘breeding ground’ for racist views, report finds'' (28/08/20)


''DECLINE and deprivation in Barnsley have made the town a breeding ground for far-right views, according to a new report.

The Hope Not Hate charitable trust report - part of the think tank’s ‘Hopeful Towns’ project - centres on how feelings of loss or rapid change, as well as economic decline and fewer opportunities, can create ‘pockets of hostility’.

Researchers believe tackling these issues can make areas more optimistic and resilient in the face of divisive narratives peddled by far-right groups - who they note ‘take root where hope is lost... offering simple answers to complex problems in order to stir up hate and division’''

https://www.barnsleychronicle.com/article/19384/barnsley-breeding-ground-for-racist-views-report-finds

Is that The Hope And Hate Group who are under investigation by three different Police Forces ?

It's the one that has exposed a number of far-right terrorists and far-right sex-offenders - is that the same one? Can't think who might want to demean it's work?

Which Police forces btw?

[ncRover]

What you are comes though in your posts tyke, I can only go on what you post.

How do you think you come across on this site?

Left to far left, bombastic on occasions, opinionated, reasonably politically aware, really really care about others in not as fortunate as myself for any reason, don't suffer fools and you nc?

one thing that maybe can't be seen from the forum, I'm not a bystander.

Ok…

What made you emigrate to Australia over left and far-left countries such as Venezuela and Cuba?

[SydneyRover]

Sorry nc this is not 20 questions, put your books down and show me who your are

[wilts rover]

Sorry nc this is not 20 questions, put your books down and show me who your are

Do you mean his user name before he re-registered?

[SydneyRover]

Oh dear not another

[ncRover]

Excuse me? I’ve never had another profile