Israel

[Bristol Red Rover]

Where's the Israeli style peace action when you need it? 

[Bristol Red Rover]

Racism big in Barnsley is it? You and Israel are evidently a great fit.

Anytime you want to challenge the points I raised in my post in an intelligent and credible way I'll be happy to debate with you .

But no that's not how people such as yourself roll is it .

Out comes the card , well unlucky sweetheart because you've dropped on the wrong person to play that one with me .

You'll not silence me with your absurd allegations .

Now then grow the feck up , be a man , stop hiding behind a keyboard 200 miles away and tell me which of the points I've raised aren't the truth .

Your comments in that post were racist. Nasty. I'm playing no card, just telling you to take a breath, read what you said, and think. Check out what you said about the Palestinian education system for a start.

[Bristol Red Rover]

Palestine wasn't the UN's to give.

Palestinians were asked to move along specific routes and were killed - shelled/bombed there.

It's not acts of self defence,  it is a consistent policy of getting Palestinians out of their homeland. This is explicit, been said by many Israeli officials,  IDF, ministers. They're bold as brass about it. It is genocide as defined.

Giving Palestine half the land of Israel would be a way of compromise. Not murdering Palestinians would be a way of defending itself. Not creating hundreds of thousands of, rightly, furious kids to become fighters in the future.

So many problems with your posts NC. JLM have a very dubious recent history, as you should know, not least in their manipulation of Labour.

Using info from Lawyers for Israel.... hmmm... How many women and children were "terrorists"? If you really by those figures you're easily manipulated. What's your skin in this?

What lies do you see Israel telling? By Israel I mean IDF, Netanyahu, government ministers and officials.

I guess you won't be shocked by this evil either NC?

It seems Israel is on a mission of digging up graveyards in Gaza. It also seems they are lieing about their reasons.

https://youtu.be/14DaFsTsrt8?si=ROdoWTl7nkoXJoaD

Why do I need skin in the game? “This person doesn’t agree with me so must be a selfish person who gains benefit somehow.” No I’m just interested in the truth of things. Not following the knee jerk angry mob that were shouting genocide before Israel even retaliated after Oct 7th.

You can’t accuse me of falling for propaganda if you can’t answer the questions in post #933.

Perhaps you could answer my question about how Arabs make up 20% of the Israeli population and have the same rights in an apartheid state. I’ve asked you about 3 times now.

Can you answer my question about war too?

I posted the efforts of Israel to minimise civilian casualties because that isn’t the behaviour of a state trying to commit genocide. Do Hamas try to limit Palestinian casualties by tunneling under schools, hospitals and mosques along with firing their rockets from civilian areas?

Israel’s tactics and long term strategy are debatable, yes. But if your ideal personal endgame for this conflict was to come true and Israel wasn’t allowed to defend itself because it shouldn’t exist, the loss of life would be far far greater. They would all be indiscriminately murdered by the millions by Hamas and Hezbollah. And what would you say then?

Unless you have evidence that Jews have ever been able to live in the Middle East alongside Muslims without facing religious persecution?

Or maybe you think Israel can exist and that it should just choose pacifism against those who carried out Oct 7th and continue to launch missiles at its people? Those who believe in martyrdom and vow to attack over and over again. So ultimately it would lead to the same genocidal outcome.

To quote Sam Harris speaking on this “Pacifism only works against a morally sane adversary”. 

Being sceptical of information from Jihadists is perfectly reasonable.

Yet a lot of people are now starting to deny anything wrong even took place on October 7th, does that not upset or concern you?

https://x.com/afalkhatib/status/1753108773676495166?s=46

NC. Your posts are long, ask several questions, so the points get lost in a forum such as this.

Skin in the game - I asked so as to get a sense of where you're coming from - family out there,  Jewish connections,time spent in Israel.... who knows,

You diss people claiming genocide before the recent murdering. Its been going on for decades. What is the west bank scenario if not genocide?

Bring sceptical of info all round is wise. Being sceptical of info from a state surrounded by enemies that it has aggravated, and a state so wrapped up in internal delusion. That's the Israeli state. Do you think the Israeli health dept would be lying to you? The Israeli lawyers you refer to? The IDF? The many self declared fascists bent on genocide - they freaking say it loud and proud! - in the Israeli government? But you focus on not believing the Gazan health officials. That's not scepticism is it?

Jewz lived in Palastine before the invasion. It was fairly peaceful,  had been for centuries. The invasion made it not peaceful. The invasion was, obviously, from the external Jews, Palestinian Jews mainly weren't wanting that.

[tyke1962]

Racism big in Barnsley is it? You and Israel are evidently a great fit.

Anytime you want to challenge the points I raised in my post in an intelligent and credible way I'll be happy to debate with you .

But no that's not how people such as yourself roll is it .

Out comes the card , well unlucky sweetheart because you've dropped on the wrong person to play that one with me .

You'll not silence me with your absurd allegations .

Now then grow the feck up , be a man , stop hiding behind a keyboard 200 miles away and tell me which of the points I've raised aren't the truth .

Your comments in that post were racist. Nasty. I'm playing no card, just telling you to take a breath, read what you said, and think. Check out what you said about the Palestinian education system for a start.

Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread  called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S  a dozen times ( I've checked )  , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .

You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .

Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .

I made several points in my post that compelled you to call me a racist initially , none of which you've addressed , so I'll put some meat on the bones with the comments I made to substantiate that very post .

Let's start with the area that compelled you to accuse me of racism a second time relating to education in Gaza .

It's quite a tragic situation because the attainment amongst Palestinian children is quite high , unfortunately Religious Education seems to be placed above academic education , Human Rights Watch are investigating this .

Let's move on to my points you haven't addressed .

The amount of aid Gaza has received is $6bn and further funding since this conflict began is as follows :

US $95m directly and through UNRWA .

EU €80

Egypt $500m

Qatar $1.3bn

Yet before this conflict began 53% of the population of Gaza lived in poverty .

So the failed state assessment I made has some justification .

I also made a reference that quite a few Islamic State's fail and it's pretty reasonable to suggest that the creation of a new so called Palestinian State as part of a Two State solution would also fail .

They fail because of Modern Fundamental Islam which again teaches primarily religious education and has a huge aversion to intellectualism and science , business tends not to prosper under those conditions , a lack of democracy and corruption is also a major contributing factor .

Their hostility towards Israel is also a contributing factor when it comes to trade .

People who want to make a better life for themselves tend not to stay in Islamic State's and are prepared to risk their life to escape from them .

I made a point about Palestinians not too popular in neighbouring country's , the PLO were expelled from Jordan by King Hussein , which is understandable given they tried to assassinate him .

They were also kicked out of Lebanon when they became involved in the Lebanese civil war .

The PLO also supported Iraq in the first Gulf War , the invasion of Kuwait seemed fine by them apparently .

Today Egypt aren't willing to accept Palestinian refugees because they are fearful of security issues .

Do I think the Israelis are angels , no I don't , however with neighbours like that plus the other hostile Islamic State's surrounding them it's perfectly understandable why they are the way they are .

However to conclude perhaps if Palestinians or their elected terrorist organisation Hamas decided to refrain from murdering innocent Israelis and tried to make the state they do have a successful one they may find the Israelis more hospitable , 10k work visas for Palestinians who going to be made available for them to work in Israel subject to security clearance before this present conflict began and join 20% other Arabs in the prosperity Israel has created .

So much for genocide .

[Bristol Red Rover]

Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread  called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S  a dozen times ( I've checked )  , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .

You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .

Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .

Let's deal with this one first. The rest I will come to afterwards,

You conflate "Jews" with "The State of Israel". They are not the same group of people. You are playing the very same "anti semetic" card as the State of Israel does, as the Labour Party does, as the Tory Party does, and the Board of Deputies do, as the Jewish Labour Movement does. It is definitively non sensical. It is manilulative rhetoric. It is deliberately used to shut down discussion on the evil of the State of Israel. It is also not recognsed as anti semetic by vast numbers fo Jews worldwide. I wager you know this.

So, do show where I have "referred to Jews as Nazis".

The state of Israel as Nazis - yup, I'm fully behind that statement. But then you claim I did that a dozen times, and that you checked. Let's see...

"Zionists ... mirror the Nazis,"
"There's been a huge amount of paid propaganda on all forms of media pushing the Zionist angle on this. ........It's about as convincing as Nazi propaganda."
".....Possibly puts Israel a notch above the Nazis in humanitarianism? "
"Israel is more of a terror organisation,  maybe due to them learning from the Nazis how that works well?"
""preemptive strikes" - such a callously misleading phrase. I don't suppose any arrests of the Jewish settlers who murdered people including kids. So in effect, just more Nazi style killing, genocide."

A Barnsley Dozen then, known as 5 times in the rest of Britain. But then you folk aren't known for counting. Twice referring to Zionists, three times to Israel. That's not what your "counted" claim said.

[Sprotyrover]

Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread  called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S  a dozen times ( I've checked )  , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .

You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .

Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .

Let's deal with this one first. The rest I will come to afterwards,

You conflate "Jews" with "The State of Israel". They are not the same group of people. You are playing the very same "anti semetic" card as the State of Israel does, as the Labour Party does, as the Tory Party does, and the Board of Deputies do, as the Jewish Labour Movement does. It is definitively non sensical. It is manilulative rhetoric. It is deliberately used to shut down discussion on the evil of the State of Israel. It is also not recognsed as anti semetic by vast numbers fo Jews worldwide. I wager you know this.

So, do show where I have "referred to Jews as Nazis".

The state of Israel as Nazis - yup, I'm fully behind that statement. But then you claim I did that a dozen times, and that you checked. Let's see...

"Zionists ... mirror the Nazis,"
"There's been a huge amount of paid propaganda on all forms of media pushing the Zionist angle on this. ........It's about as convincing as Nazi propaganda."
".....Possibly puts Israel a notch above the Nazis in humanitarianism? "
"Israel is more of a terror organisation,  maybe due to them learning from the Nazis how that works well?"
""preemptive strikes" - such a callously misleading phrase. I don't suppose any arrests of the Jewish settlers who murdered people including kids. So in effect, just more Nazi style killing, genocide."

A Barnsley Dozen then, known as 5 times in the rest of Britain. But then you folk aren't known for counting. Twice referring to Zionists, three times to Israel. That's not what your "counted" claim said.

I didn’t see many Nazi Jews or Zionists getting raped and murdered on 7th October did you?

[tyke1962]

Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread  called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S  a dozen times ( I've checked )  , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .

You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .

Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .

Let's deal with this one first. The rest I will come to afterwards,

You conflate "Jews" with "The State of Israel". They are not the same group of people. You are playing the very same "anti semetic" card as the State of Israel does, as the Labour Party does, as the Tory Party does, and the Board of Deputies do, as the Jewish Labour Movement does. It is definitively non sensical. It is manilulative rhetoric. It is deliberately used to shut down discussion on the evil of the State of Israel. It is also not recognsed as anti semetic by vast numbers fo Jews worldwide. I wager you know this.

So, do show where I have "referred to Jews as Nazis".

The state of Israel as Nazis - yup, I'm fully behind that statement. But then you claim I did that a dozen times, and that you checked. Let's see...

"Zionists ... mirror the Nazis,"
"There's been a huge amount of paid propaganda on all forms of media pushing the Zionist angle on this. ........It's about as convincing as Nazi propaganda."
".....Possibly puts Israel a notch above the Nazis in humanitarianism? "
"Israel is more of a terror organisation,  maybe due to them learning from the Nazis how that works well?"
""preemptive strikes" - such a callously misleading phrase. I don't suppose any arrests of the Jewish settlers who murdered people including kids. So in effect, just more Nazi style killing, genocide."

A Barnsley Dozen then, known as 5 times in the rest of Britain. But then you folk aren't known for counting. Twice referring to Zionists, three times to Israel. That's not what your "counted" claim said.

Is that all you can muster on the points I raised ?

Attempting to hide behind technicalities when it's clear the level of hatred you have for Israel and a dig at Barnsley people .

Mind you it fits with the same sort of cowardice you clearly admire , terrorists hiding in tunnels and behind women and children and only dare show their face when they attack and murder innocent civilians before running back to hide once more .

What an embarrassing spectacle the left has become these last few months .

I could live with the rather romantic Palestinian support but when the left  calendar suddenly jumped from October 6th to October 8th and missed a day out it was time to disassociate myself from these fruitcakes  once it emerged what had occurred and the depths of deprivation that could only be carried out by sub humans .

[Bristol Red Rover]

Again with the racism but you yourself have during the life of this thread  called or referred to Jews or the state of Israel as NAZI'S  a dozen times ( I've checked )  , a term generally associated with racism and as I remember in the 80's a group known as The Anti Nazi League was formed to fight racism and racists .

You also stated earlier in this thread that you wished to see Israel annihilated , by definition that would mean thousands of Jews would die .

Perhaps a bit of self reflection is required by yourself .

Let's deal with this one first. The rest I will come to afterwards,

You conflate "Jews" with "The State of Israel". They are not the same group of people. You are playing the very same "anti semetic" card as the State of Israel does, as the Labour Party does, as the Tory Party does, and the Board of Deputies do, as the Jewish Labour Movement does. It is definitively non sensical. It is manilulative rhetoric. It is deliberately used to shut down discussion on the evil of the State of Israel. It is also not recognsed as anti semetic by vast numbers fo Jews worldwide. I wager you know this.

So, do show where I have "referred to Jews as Nazis".

The state of Israel as Nazis - yup, I'm fully behind that statement. But then you claim I did that a dozen times, and that you checked. Let's see...

"Zionists ... mirror the Nazis,"
"There's been a huge amount of paid propaganda on all forms of media pushing the Zionist angle on this. ........It's about as convincing as Nazi propaganda."
".....Possibly puts Israel a notch above the Nazis in humanitarianism? "
"Israel is more of a terror organisation,  maybe due to them learning from the Nazis how that works well?"
""preemptive strikes" - such a callously misleading phrase. I don't suppose any arrests of the Jewish settlers who murdered people including kids. So in effect, just more Nazi style killing, genocide."

A Barnsley Dozen then, known as 5 times in the rest of Britain. But then you folk aren't known for counting. Twice referring to Zionists, three times to Israel. That's not what your "counted" claim said.

Is that all you can muster on the points I raised ?

Attempting to hide behind technicalities when it's clear the level of hatred you have for Israel and a dig at Barnsley people .

Mind you it fits with the same sort of cowardice you clearly admire , terrorists hiding in tunnels and behind women and children and only dare show their face when they attack and murder innocent civilians before running back to hide once more .

What an embarrassing spectacle the left has become these last few months .

I could live with the rather romantic Palestinian support but when the left  calendar suddenly jumped from October 6th to October 8th and missed a day out it was time to disassociate myself from these fruitcakes  once it emerged what had occurred and the depths of deprivation that could only be carried out by sub humans .

Oh dear, you can't read as well as can't count. Glad anyway to get your admission of telling porkies even if not man enough to apologise.

[Bristol Red Rover]

....Self acknowledged porky pies.....

I made several points in my post that compelled you to call me a racist initially , none of which you've addressed , so I'll put some meat on the bones with the comments I made to substantiate that very post .

Let's start with the area that compelled you to accuse me of racism a second time relating to education in Gaza .

It's quite a tragic situation because the attainment amongst Palestinian children is quite high , unfortunately Religious Education seems to be placed above academic education , Human Rights Watch are investigating this .

Lets look at what you originally said that prompted me to call you racist:

I bet the Gaza education system in that length of time (18 years) have produced some real pillars of society , behead Jews , jihad , learn to fire rockets over the border from military points disguised as hospitals , some one day may even land on Israeli soil , you never know .

You are using a few specifics of the terrible actions of a few to entirely give content to your statement about the Palestinian education system. You provide no evidence of how even those few were taught those specific actions within the Palestnian education system. You also throw in the word Jihad deliberately using it in the context of the Western misuse of the term - racist in itself. Maybe you don't understand the term - add this to the list of not being able to count or read and we are building a picture, though obviously in engaging in dialogue here with you I am hoping for something better.

In fact you do now make the positive point of Palestinian children having high attainment, but then you make a judgemnt of the "religious" side of their education being a negative. Personally I don't rate religion of any kind. Spirituality is another story. Given the paucity of meat on the bones you have delivered, I can only make the link of your reference to religious education being about the beheading etc etc you used in a racist way in your earlier post. Sad you revert back there, at least as far as the lack of meat goes. My general experience of muslims is of people that are very generous, very engaged culturally, socially, locally, and politically, and their religious ways are fully entwined with that. Historically their academic abilities have been top of the tree by a long way, and that came hand in hand with their religion. So what you say there in your latter criticism doesn't fit. Now, if they are being taught beheading in schools, maybe you can give us the meat of your evidence.

[Sprotyrover]

Looks like we are entering the end game in Gaza.
https://www.bignewsnetwork.com/news/274119617/we-are-on-way-to-complete-victory-israel-pm-netanyahu-dismisses-hamas-proposals-for-ceasefire
Israelis refusing to negotiate a truce on any terms favourable to Hamas, seems they have completely annihilated 19 Hamas Battalions and are currently destroying the few that remain (6).

[SydneyRover]

Gosh, I hope nobody jumped to conclusions ..........

 ................ ''But Israel refuses to share either its evidence or the intelligence dossier – a summary of which was seen by FRANCE 24 – with UNRWA, posing a challenge for the UN agency as it tries to complete its inquiry''

https://www.france24.com/en/middle-east/20240205-as-donors-suspend-critical-funding-to-unrwa-allegations-against-staff-remain-murky


''Sixteen countries have suspended their funding to the agency following the allegations by Israel.
The U.N.'s oversight office is carrying out the investigation. UNRWA has said it acted quickly to address the allegations, with its head Philippe Lazzarini firing those allegedly involved and informing the U.N.'s secretary-general, as well as the United States and other donors.
Israel had informed Lazzarini of the accusations against the 12 staff members verbally, but other allegations were leaked to media that a larger number of UNRWA employees have Hamas links''

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unrwa-says-report-into-israeli-claims-against-staff-due-early-march-2024-02-06/#:~:text=Israel%20had%20informed%20Lazzarini%20of,UNRWA%20employees%20have%20Hamas%20links.

[selby]

  It is going to go on and on until Israel say so, all they will do is refuse any exchange of hostages because of the demands in numbers by Hamas, Israel will want 1 to 1 while continuing the assault and Hamas will want the Earth to save face.
  It isn't going to work this time also pressure is building on Egypt, Syria, Lebanon to take the Palestinians in and save their butt, something they themselves are reluctant to do while the Israeli's  are solving their problems.
  If they cared what happened to the Palestinian's they would have either been in there alongside them or opened the borders to refugees, although they might be hoping that problem will come to Europe.

[Bristol Red Rover]

This is Israel
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68261286

If you heard the recording I posted earlier, and now can see this report, from the BBC, including the deliberate targeting and destruction of the ambulance and crew sent to help, that even after coordinates of it being given to Israel, and a green light being given, if you can still back Israel, whoah. It's far from the only similar occurance of recent times but the graphic brutality recorded is stunning.

The UK is entirely complicit in this.

[SydneyRover]

An interesting article on the long game ...........

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history

[Sprotyrover]

An interesting article on the long game ...........

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history

ArticleAuthor is Kenan Malik a Marxist!!!
Well done Syd, you Wlii post articles written by Stalin next!

[Bristol Red Rover]

An interesting article on the long game ...........

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history

ArticleAuthor is Kenan Malik a Marxist!!!
Well done Syd, you Wlii post articles written by Stalin next!

I think you meant you'll post article by Hitler or Goebels, Pinochet or Thatcher, that parallel works. Although best deal with alive people for relevance eh?

[drfchound]

Funny that it is by someone called Kenan. 

[Sprotyrover]

An interesting article on the long game ...........

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/feb/11/denouncing-critics-of-israel-as-un-jews-or-antisemites-is-a-perversion-of-history

ArticleAuthor is Kenan Malik a Marxist!!!
Well done Syd, you Wlii post articles written by Stalin next!

I think you meant you'll post article by Hitler or Goebels, Pinochet or Thatcher, that parallel works. Although best deal with alive people for relevance eh?

No I referred to Stalin!

[Bristol Red Rover]

Stalin was a Marxist according to himself, hardly taking the important centre of Marxism. Kinda the same as Hitler or Netanyahu are humanitarians.

Relating to specifically to Malik - what is your point?

[Bristol Red Rover]

But whilst you're working that out Sprotty, do tell me your thoughts on the murder of that girl that I posted. It would make you the the first pro Israel, Zionist type on here not to gloss over it.

[SydneyRover]

Typical that the mindless attack the person rather than what he wrote, nothing changes.

[SydneyRover]

Hmmm, I wonder how a kibbutz would be described in a political sense.

[Sprotyrover]

But whilst you're working that out Sprotty, do tell me your thoughts on the murder of that girl that I posted. It would make you the the first pro Israel, Zionist type on here not to gloss over it.

BRR I don’t know what you are talking about. I ignore your Posts they are generally garbage!

[Sprotyrover]

Hmmm, I wonder how a kibbutz would be described in a political sense.

have a go Syd

[SydneyRover]

sproty, I think the onus is on yourself and other within the vacuum to explain why you would dismiss a view because of your own shortcomings?

[Bristol Red Rover]

But whilst you're working that out Sprotty, do tell me your thoughts on the murder of that girl that I posted. It would make you the the first pro Israel, Zionist type on here not to gloss over it.

BRR I don’t know what you are talking about. I ignore your Posts they are generally garbage!

It wasnt too hard to comprehend, and your evasion of that is desperate, and deceitful. Palestinian family murdered in cold blood by IDF tank ffs, and then the ambulance crew sent out to rescue the only survivor in that car, a 6 year old girl, were deliberately targeted and murdered by the IDF.

Too much for your brain. I understand.

[Sprotyrover]

sproty, I think the onus is on yourself and other within the vacuum to explain why you would dismiss a view because of your own shortcomings?

Have a go Syd!

[Not Now Kato]

I found this interesting today.  Interesting and worrying.
 
www.youtube.com/watch?v=xv0vYtC-RUg
 

[albie]

Oborne is a voice of reason on the whole middle east question, from the start of this recent episode, NNK.

Also interesting is that the SNP have put in a ceasefire motion to be considered in the HoC shortly.
It will not pass, but it will show if people will deviate from their party line.

A free vote is the only reasonable approach on the issue.

[Not Now Kato]

Oborne is a voice of reason on the whole middle east question, from the start of this recent episode, NNK.

Also interesting is that the SNP have put in a ceasefire motion to be considered in the HoC shortly.
It will not pass, but it will show if people will deviate from their party line.

A free vote is the only reasonable approach on the issue.

Yes, but even with a free vote, (unlikely), it won't pass.  I'm not sure what it would take to stop the carnage out there as there doesn't seem to be a real desire on anyones part in the West to do so, and I fear that because of our stance we will likely feel the repercussions at some point in the future.