Cenotaph

[roverstillidie91]

See that JSO protesters have been doing a silent protest but then dragged by the police to the Cenotaph to make it look as if they was trying to desecrate it.

Police state before our very eyes and see Labour are supporting it as well. Tories 2.0 I mean.

Makes you wonder what this country has become.

 https://twitter.com/OwenJones84/status/1721526557896802620?s=19

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The police removed them from blocking a pretty important road, seems fair to me.  The police have also been quite clear that the protestors were doing nothing to the cenotaph.  Seems fair to me.

The politicians claiming otherwise need to think before they react (and apologise), all of them.

[roverstillidie91]

The police removed them from blocking a pretty important road, seems fair to me.  The police have also been quite clear that the protestors were doing nothing to the cenotaph.  Seems fair to me.

The politicians claiming otherwise need to think before they react (and apologise), all of them.

Just seen the latest from it.

I see MP's including 30p Lee Anderson and Yvette Cooper. Tories and the latter Labour.

Not looking great for Labour.

Clearly when you have a Fascist government who want to stop protesting.

And even the extremes of blocking roads it gets the public attention on the wrongdoings of our elected party system.

Unfortunately the majority of people will see them blocking the roads as part of the problem not the perpetrators of the VIP lane during covid.

Sad really.

[DRFC_AjA]

Id say whats sadder and says more about you is that youve not condoned the vandalism of cenotaphs about the UK by pro palestinian mobs - how vandalising the memory of folks who helped stop the nazis has anything to do with the apparent "free" Palestine - youve simply glossed over that to make some 'saddo tin hat, its the governments fault ive failed in life' point about a police state.

Oh and of course lefty word bingo - "fascists" ding ding. Winner winner. Im sure anyone who defends the cenotaphs is a NAzi, skinhead, uneducated couth in your eyes. Of course, the pig headed (pun intended) Muslim extremists and uneducated Antifa who have hijacked what should genuinely be a valid discussion about the innocent lives being lost are just simply 'protestors', 'free speech', etc

[Bristol Red Rover]

Id say whats sadder and says more about you is that youve not condoned the vandalism of cenotaphs about the UK by pro palestinian mobs - how vandalising the memory of folks who helped stop the nazis has anything to do with the apparent "free" Palestine - youve simply glossed over that to make some 'saddo tin hat, its the governments fault ive failed in life' point about a police state.

Oh and of course lefty word bingo - "fascists" ding ding. Winner winner. Im sure anyone who defends the cenotaphs is a NAzi, skinhead, uneducated couth in your eyes. Of course, the pig headed (pun intended) Muslim extremists and uneducated Antifa who have hijacked what should genuinely be a valid discussion about the innocent lives being lost are just simply 'protestors', 'free speech', etc

For real?

[Bristol Red Rover]

Hopefully Bristol City Council get moved on too then. I spent ages trying to negotiate a maze of recently blocked roads. I think it's to protect students who are notoriously bad at walking across roads and avoiding traffic. Maybe students are endangered, I don't know.

[roverstillidie91]

Id say whats sadder and says more about you is that youve not condoned the vandalism of cenotaphs about the UK by pro palestinian mobs - how vandalising the memory of folks who helped stop the nazis has anything to do with the apparent "free" Palestine - youve simply glossed over that to make some 'saddo tin hat, its the governments fault ive failed in life' point about a police state.

Oh and of course lefty word bingo - "fascists" ding ding. Winner winner. Im sure anyone who defends the cenotaphs is a NAzi, skinhead, uneducated couth in your eyes. Of course, the pig headed (pun intended) Muslim extremists and uneducated Antifa who have hijacked what should genuinely be a valid discussion about the innocent lives being lost are just simply 'protestors', 'free speech', etc

I'm assuming that's aimed for me?


The purpose of the topic was to discuss the item mentioned not Palestine.

For obvious reasons I condemn any vandalism of the cenotaph as I do have relatives who fought and was killed in the war.

So how isn't this government not fascist?

I am doing pretty well in my life if that's what you are referencing too.

You are just stereotyping. I am confused as to what you're getting at.

[Bentley Bullet]

The police removed them from blocking a pretty important road, seems fair to me.  The police have also been quite clear that the protestors were doing nothing to the cenotaph.  Seems fair to me.

The politicians claiming otherwise need to think before they react (and apologise), all of them.

Just seen the latest from it.

I see MP's including 30p Lee Anderson and Yvette Cooper. Tories and the latter Labour.

Not looking great for Labour.

Clearly when you have a Fascist government who want to stop protesting.

And even the extremes of blocking roads it gets the public attention on the wrongdoings of our elected party system.

Unfortunately the majority of people will see them blocking the roads as part of the problem not the perpetrators of the VIP lane during covid.

Sad really.

Fascist government! If we really had a fascist government you would be imprisoned or killed for your opinions expressed on this thread!

[roverstillidie91]

The police removed them from blocking a pretty important road, seems fair to me.  The police have also been quite clear that the protestors were doing nothing to the cenotaph.  Seems fair to me.

The politicians claiming otherwise need to think before they react (and apologise), all of them.

Just seen the latest from it.

I see MP's including 30p Lee Anderson and Yvette Cooper. Tories and the latter Labour.

Not looking great for Labour.

Clearly when you have a Fascist government who want to stop protesting.

And even the extremes of blocking roads it gets the public attention on the wrongdoings of our elected party system.

Unfortunately the majority of people will see them blocking the roads as part of the problem not the perpetrators of the VIP lane during covid.

Sad really.

Fascist government! If we really had a fascist government you would be imprisoned or killed for your opinions expressed on this thread!

That's what it is slowly becoming.  Facts show that is how the Germany Nazi with Hitler started with policies like theres.

I imagine though you aren't going to agree with what I'm saying.

[wilts rover]

Id say whats sadder and says more about you is that youve not condoned the vandalism of cenotaphs about the UK by pro palestinian mobs - how vandalising the memory of folks who helped stop the nazis has anything to do with the apparent "free" Palestine - youve simply glossed over that to make some 'saddo tin hat, its the governments fault ive failed in life' point about a police state.

Oh and of course lefty word bingo - "fascists" ding ding. Winner winner. Im sure anyone who defends the cenotaphs is a NAzi, skinhead, uneducated couth in your eyes. Of course, the pig headed (pun intended) Muslim extremists and uneducated Antifa who have hijacked what should genuinely be a valid discussion about the innocent lives being lost are just simply 'protestors', 'free speech', etc

What's even sadder is someone making stories up about war memorials being vandalised by certain people they don't like.

I note you ignore the far-right, anti-muslim, anti-immigrant protests and marches. As they do desecrate war memorials:

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/north-wales-war-memorial-desecrated-25513521

[wilts rover]

The police removed them from blocking a pretty important road, seems fair to me.  The police have also been quite clear that the protestors were doing nothing to the cenotaph.  Seems fair to me.

The politicians claiming otherwise need to think before they react (and apologise), all of them.

Just seen the latest from it.

I see MP's including 30p Lee Anderson and Yvette Cooper. Tories and the latter Labour.

Not looking great for Labour.

Clearly when you have a Fascist government who want to stop protesting.

And even the extremes of blocking roads it gets the public attention on the wrongdoings of our elected party system.

Unfortunately the majority of people will see them blocking the roads as part of the problem not the perpetrators of the VIP lane during covid.

Sad really.

Fascist government! If we really had a fascist government you would be imprisoned or killed for your opinions expressed on this thread!

That's what it is slowly becoming.  Facts show that is how the Germany Nazi with Hitler started with policies like theres.

I imagine though you aren't going to agree with what I'm saying.

The German government only banned marches and protests by groups they didn't like. They allowed the groups they did like to go about unhindered.

Draw your own conclusions on why certain posters like to attack certain groups. But not others.

[Bentley Bullet]

The police removed them from blocking a pretty important road, seems fair to me.  The police have also been quite clear that the protestors were doing nothing to the cenotaph.  Seems fair to me.

The politicians claiming otherwise need to think before they react (and apologise), all of them.

Just seen the latest from it.

I see MP's including 30p Lee Anderson and Yvette Cooper. Tories and the latter Labour.

Not looking great for Labour.

Clearly when you have a Fascist government who want to stop protesting.

And even the extremes of blocking roads it gets the public attention on the wrongdoings of our elected party system.

Unfortunately the majority of people will see them blocking the roads as part of the problem not the perpetrators of the VIP lane during covid.

Sad really.

Fascist government! If we really had a fascist government you would be imprisoned or killed for your opinions expressed on this thread!

That's what it is slowly becoming.  Facts show that is how the Germany Nazi with Hitler started with policies like theres.

I imagine though you aren't going to agree with what I'm saying.

No, I'm not. Because it's b*llocks.

[roverstillidie91]

The police removed them from blocking a pretty important road, seems fair to me.  The police have also been quite clear that the protestors were doing nothing to the cenotaph.  Seems fair to me.

The politicians claiming otherwise need to think before they react (and apologise), all of them.

Just seen the latest from it.

I see MP's including 30p Lee Anderson and Yvette Cooper. Tories and the latter Labour.

Not looking great for Labour.

Clearly when you have a Fascist government who want to stop protesting.

And even the extremes of blocking roads it gets the public attention on the wrongdoings of our elected party system.

Unfortunately the majority of people will see them blocking the roads as part of the problem not the perpetrators of the VIP lane during covid.

Sad really.

Fascist government! If we really had a fascist government you would be imprisoned or killed for your opinions expressed on this thread!

That's what it is slowly becoming.  Facts show that is how the Germany Nazi with Hitler started with policies like theres.

I imagine though you aren't going to agree with what I'm saying.

No, I'm not. Because it's b*llocks.

It is just my opinion, other people will support it just like people will disagree with it.

You seem very wound up by my comments.

[BobG]

It is incontrovertible that this is how fascism began in Germany. So that part at least is indubitably not b*llocks.

BobG

[Bentley Bullet]

Clearly "When you have a Fascist government who want to stop protesting", they will imprison or kill protesters.

It is legal to protest in the UK, and the right to protest in England and Wales is protected under the European Convention of Human Rights. However, it is important to note that this legal right only applies to peaceful demonstrations, and does not extend to any acts of violence or damage caused during a protest.

That is not fascism, that is just stopping nutcases with too much time on their hands from causing disruption.

[roverstillidie91]

Clearly "When you have a Fascist government who want to stop protesting", they will imprison or kill protesters.

It is legal to protest in the UK, and the right to protest in England and Wales is protected under the European Convention of Human Rights. However, it is important to note that this legal right only applies to peaceful demonstrations, and does not extend to any acts of violence or damage caused during a protest.

That is not fascism, that is just stopping nutcases with too much time on their hands from causing disruption.

I understand what you're saying however even those protests are peaceful and aren't causing any damage. It's merely a tactic to get the government to listen.

Clearly the government are losing the argument with the public order bill, anti strike bill.

They are even trying to stop journalists reporting on things. That is a dictatorial government if something similar happened in Russia or China we'd be condemning it.

They are making it illegal even to peacefully protest as it doesn't suit their agenda.

Brexit was to get rid of people's rights and they want us to come out of the ECHR.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

If they wanted to do all of that they'd have done it by now with a conservative majority, they haven't and won't.

These protests are not peaceful, blocking roads isn't peaceful.  You have to laugh at just stop oil. In the recent court case one of them wanted a delay because they'll be on holiday flying to India, you couldn't make it up...

[ravenrover]

I see 30pLee deleted his tweet when the Met gave the facts of the matter

[Bentley Bullet]

Clearly "When you have a Fascist government who want to stop protesting", they will imprison or kill protesters.

It is legal to protest in the UK, and the right to protest in England and Wales is protected under the European Convention of Human Rights. However, it is important to note that this legal right only applies to peaceful demonstrations, and does not extend to any acts of violence or damage caused during a protest.

That is not fascism, that is just stopping nutcases with too much time on their hands from causing disruption.

I understand what you're saying however even those protests are peaceful and aren't causing any damage. It's merely a tactic to get the government to listen.

Clearly the government are losing the argument with the public order bill, anti strike bill.

They are even trying to stop journalists reporting on things. That is a dictatorial government if something similar happened in Russia or China we'd be condemning it.

They are making it illegal even to peacefully protest as it doesn't suit their agenda.

Brexit was to get rid of people's rights and they want us to come out of the ECHR.

Peaceful means quiet and free from disturbance. Blocking roads, for instance, is disturbing the peace in that it violates public order by disturbing the public, and therefore incites violence.

[TommyC]

The conditions that enabled fascism were a direct result of the limp wristed leadership of the Weimar Government after WW1. The effects of rampant hyper-inflation resulting in middle classes being made poorer, losing their homes and businesses and working people being hit ever harder in the pocket. Add to that the complete national and very deliberate humiliation of Germany on the word stage after WW1 and the total loss of national identity/pride and you have a perfect breeding ground for a nationalist/fascist type party.

The parallels are (worryingly) there but they were sown a long time ago, way before GB News and Russia started stirring the pot. I'd suggest a good starting point to look for where this started would be 1997 onwards and the increasingly "progressive" policies of successive governments since then.

You take away the national identity of a country, tell people they're thick racists for caring about immigration and loss of national identity for long enough and you're going to see a reaction to that which extremist parties will be able to exploit. The national flag of this country is now something we're supposed to be ashamed of (compare that to Scotland or Wales who take pride in their flag) bashed over the head about our "white-privilege" and admonished for events taking place hundreds of years ago that led to us becoming a global superpower. Statues torn down and history erased. You're damn right, fascism is on the rise. Fascism is not however purely a preserve of the right.

We absolutely are in times that are comparable to the rise of fascism in Germany, but people may not like the inconvenient truth as to why we find ourselves here.

[idler]

Like most groups and protests they usually attract a minority that just want confrontation and aggravation which is counter productive to the aims of the majority.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The conditions that enabled fascism were a direct result of the limp wristed leadership of the Weimar Government after WW1. The effects of rampant hyper-inflation resulting in middle classes being made poorer, losing their homes and businesses and working people being hit ever harder in the pocket. Add to that the complete national and very deliberate humiliation of Germany on the word stage after WW1 and the total loss of national identity/pride and you have a perfect breeding ground for a nationalist/fascist type party.

The parallels are (worryingly) there but they were sown a long time ago, way before GB News and Russia started stirring the pot. I'd suggest a good starting point to look for where this started would be 1997 onwards and the increasingly "progressive" policies of successive governments since then.

You take away the national identity of a country, tell people they're thick racists for caring about immigration and loss of national identity for long enough and you're going to see a reaction to that which extremist parties will be able to exploit. The national flag of this country is now something we're supposed to be ashamed of (compare that to Scotland or Wales who take pride in their flag) bashed over the head about our "white-privilege" and admonished for events taking place hundreds of years ago that led to us becoming a global superpower. Statues torn down and history erased. You're damn right, fascism is on the rise. Fascism is not however purely a preserve of the right.

We absolutely are in times that are comparable to the rise of fascism in Germany, but people may not like the inconvenient truth as to why we find ourselves here.

Point of fact. It wasn't the hyperinflation that led to the rise of the Nazis. It was the Austerity policies of the Brüning Government.

[TommyC]

The conditions that enabled fascism were a direct result of the limp wristed leadership of the Weimar Government after WW1. The effects of rampant hyper-inflation resulting in middle classes being made poorer, losing their homes and businesses and working people being hit ever harder in the pocket. Add to that the complete national and very deliberate humiliation of Germany on the word stage after WW1 and the total loss of national identity/pride and you have a perfect breeding ground for a nationalist/fascist type party.

The parallels are (worryingly) there but they were sown a long time ago, way before GB News and Russia started stirring the pot. I'd suggest a good starting point to look for where this started would be 1997 onwards and the increasingly "progressive" policies of successive governments since then.

You take away the national identity of a country, tell people they're thick racists for caring about immigration and loss of national identity for long enough and you're going to see a reaction to that which extremist parties will be able to exploit. The national flag of this country is now something we're supposed to be ashamed of (compare that to Scotland or Wales who take pride in their flag) bashed over the head about our "white-privilege" and admonished for events taking place hundreds of years ago that led to us becoming a global superpower. Statues torn down and history erased. You're damn right, fascism is on the rise. Fascism is not however purely a preserve of the right.

We absolutely are in times that are comparable to the rise of fascism in Germany, but people may not like the inconvenient truth as to why we find ourselves here.

Point of fact. It wasn't the hyperinflation that led to the rise of the Nazis. It was the Austerity policies of the Brüning Government.

It isn't a point of fact at all. That's your opinion.

Richard Evans agrees with me so i'm alright with that....

[BillyStubbsTears]

The conditions that enabled fascism were a direct result of the limp wristed leadership of the Weimar Government after WW1. The effects of rampant hyper-inflation resulting in middle classes being made poorer, losing their homes and businesses and working people being hit ever harder in the pocket. Add to that the complete national and very deliberate humiliation of Germany on the word stage after WW1 and the total loss of national identity/pride and you have a perfect breeding ground for a nationalist/fascist type party.

The parallels are (worryingly) there but they were sown a long time ago, way before GB News and Russia started stirring the pot. I'd suggest a good starting point to look for where this started would be 1997 onwards and the increasingly "progressive" policies of successive governments since then.

You take away the national identity of a country, tell people they're thick racists for caring about immigration and loss of national identity for long enough and you're going to see a reaction to that which extremist parties will be able to exploit. The national flag of this country is now something we're supposed to be ashamed of (compare that to Scotland or Wales who take pride in their flag) bashed over the head about our "white-privilege" and admonished for events taking place hundreds of years ago that led to us becoming a global superpower. Statues torn down and history erased. You're damn right, fascism is on the rise. Fascism is not however purely a preserve of the right.

We absolutely are in times that are comparable to the rise of fascism in Germany, but people may not like the inconvenient truth as to why we find ourselves here.

Point of fact. It wasn't the hyperinflation that led to the rise of the Nazis. It was the Austerity policies of the Brüning Government.

It isn't a point of fact at all. That's your opinion.

Richard Evans agrees with me so i'm alright with that....

There are recent, detailed academic studies that show a clear link, city by city, with the economic effect of Brüning's Austerity and the increase in Nazi Party vote share in local elections.

Then there's the obvious big picture. Hyperinflation occured in 1922-23. By mid 1924 it was over. Yet the Nazi party and it's partner the NSFB won only 2.5-3% of the vote in 1924-28. By 1932, almost a decade after Hyperinflation, but immediately after Brüning's Austerity, they were on 37%.


Ian Kershaw notes that without the collapse due to the Brüning Austerity (unemployment up to 9 million, from 1.5 million in 1929, economic output down 42% on 1929) it is inconceivable that Hitler would have come to power.

Whichever way you look at it though, comparisons with modern Britain are a bit OTT.

The Tory Austerity undoubtedly led to the rise of Farage and all the shite that led to, but Cameron wasn't Brüning, our Austerity wasn't anywhere near as vicious,  and Farage wasn't Hitler.

Similarly, 10% inflation over the past couple of years is scarcely Weimar Take 2.

The issue is, Braverman IS a fascist at heart. She has nothing to offer but hatred of The Other and division. She's gambling that that will be enough to win her the Tory leadership. And given that the golf club bores that make up the party membership elected someone as patently batshit as Liz Truss, who knows? She might be right. But no more than the nastiest, most bigoted 10-15% of the UK population would ever vote for a party led by a ghoul like her.

[Sprotyrover]

Germany was not defeated in the First World War, that caused a great deal of Ill feeling and Hitler played on it and German national pride.

[Bristol Red Rover]

If they wanted to do all of that they'd have done it by now with a conservative majority, they haven't and won't.

These protests are not peaceful, blocking roads isn't peaceful.  You have to laugh at just stop oil. In the recent court case one of them wanted a delay because they'll be on holiday flying to India, you couldn't make it up...

That's an individual. The issue is far bigger than that. Peaceful protests are the bottom line to keep free. If a few individuals are not peaceful, that is no reason to stop a protest. It's also a fact that governments over the years, centuries, have employed agent provocateurs to give them the permission to go in hard with army or police. In a situation where police are predicting violence in order to stop protests, there is a lot of room for abusive control, and steps towards authoritarianism.

It's all about keeping the masses under control, subservient.

[Sprotyrover]

If they wanted to do all of that they'd have done it by now with a conservative majority, they haven't and won't.

These protests are not peaceful, blocking roads isn't peaceful.  You have to laugh at just stop oil. In the recent court case one of them wanted a delay because they'll be on holiday flying to India, you couldn't make it up...

That's an individual. The issue is far bigger than that. Peaceful protests are the bottom line to keep free. If a few individuals are not peaceful, that is no reason to stop a protest. It's also a fact that governments over the years, centuries, have employed agent provocateurs to give them the permission to go in hard with army or police. In a situation where police are predicting violence in order to stop protests, there is a lot of room for abusive control, and steps towards authoritarianism.

It's all about keeping the masses under control, subservient.

Sounds like PUTINS Russia!

[BillyStubbsTears]

It's both simpler and more sophisticated than what BRR says.

It IS about controlling people, but not the marchers.

Braverman has absolutely nothing to offer apart from keeping ill-informed, angry people ill-informed and angry. She controls them by feeding them a diet of "Woke" folk who have the temerity to demonstrate on issues that are "clearly" only things that rich liberal-minded people would care about. The current legislation just keeps such issues in the news, whether the marches go ahead or not.

Job done.

[tyke1962]

If anyone proves the saying " That an empty vessel makes the most noise " it's Braverman .

A Poundland Fascist and I'm being generous .

The women is absolutely gutless .

If we were unfortunate enough to ever get a real far right government Braverman would probably be one of its victims .

[scawsby steve]

The conditions that enabled fascism were a direct result of the limp wristed leadership of the Weimar Government after WW1. The effects of rampant hyper-inflation resulting in middle classes being made poorer, losing their homes and businesses and working people being hit ever harder in the pocket. Add to that the complete national and very deliberate humiliation of Germany on the word stage after WW1 and the total loss of national identity/pride and you have a perfect breeding ground for a nationalist/fascist type party.

The parallels are (worryingly) there but they were sown a long time ago, way before GB News and Russia started stirring the pot. I'd suggest a good starting point to look for where this started would be 1997 onwards and the increasingly "progressive" policies of successive governments since then.

You take away the national identity of a country, tell people they're thick racists for caring about immigration and loss of national identity for long enough and you're going to see a reaction to that which extremist parties will be able to exploit. The national flag of this country is now something we're supposed to be ashamed of (compare that to Scotland or Wales who take pride in their flag) bashed over the head about our "white-privilege" and admonished for events taking place hundreds of years ago that led to us becoming a global superpower. Statues torn down and history erased. You're damn right, fascism is on the rise. Fascism is not however purely a preserve of the right.

We absolutely are in times that are comparable to the rise of fascism in Germany, but people may not like the inconvenient truth as to why we find ourselves here.

Good post, Tommy. I warned people on here about Labour Party members accusing Brexit voters in staunch Labour strongholds of being thick, racist, gammon faced old farts, and the effect it would have on the 2019 GE. Then there was lardarse Thornberry with her "white van man" insults.

To be fair to Starmer, despite looking unimpressive, he seems to be trying to nip this kind of thing in the bud with potential Labour voters, insisting that people need to move on from Brexit.