The Descent

[Campsall rover]

The descent has been alarming.
Could never have imagined we would be where we are right now at Christmas 3 yrs ago.
Quite unbelievable how far we have fallen.

The rot has to stop NOW or we are in big big trouble
Go down into the National league and it could be a marathon trying to get back.

We need some serious character from our players now.
When the going gets tough the tough get?  Do the players know what the missing word is I wonder. Well we are going to see.

[les@donr]

Probably be between us and Colchester who go down. Forest Green are set to recruit big in Janauary to save their season.

[GazLaz]

We stopped publishing full accounts effective for the end of the 2014/15 season and in recent times didn't publish them prior to the 2009/10 season. Absolutely insane to think we had a wage bill of nearly £10m (during The Experiment season of all seasons).

Total wage costs

2014/15 season - £4.12m (League One)
2013/14 season - £7.3m (Championship)
2012/13 season - £7.05m (League One)
2011/12 season - £9.36m (Championship)
2010/11 season - £7.5m (Championship)
2009/10 season - £6.6m (Championship)

Now? Probably between £2-£2.5m?

£7m for that L1 season? Can’t be right surely.

[Chris Black come back]

That’s how we got straight back up. We spent big to give Saunders that squad.

[GazLaz]

That’s how we got straight back up. We spent big to give Saunders that squad.

I suppose in a promotion season the wage bill will be higher due to lots of bonus’ being paid.

[normal rules]

I don’t look down there often. But a quick look at the National lge shows some interesting days out. Southend. York. Hartlepool, our fa cup friends Oldham, Rochdale, Halifax and Aldershot.

[In the box]

That’s how we got straight back up. We spent big to give Saunders that squad.

I very much doubt that .. Saunders was brought in to clear out the big earners and reduce wage bill and was rewarded by his mate at Wolverhampton taking him to do the same and leaving Bryan Flynn to see us over the line We had a very a good squad winning more away than at home , but apart from a few named players it was thrown together with Rob Jone and Jamie Mcombe  playing a huge part with Paul keegan and Paul Quin .

[Chris Black come back]

It’s not really a matter of doubting whether it is true, because that is what the statutory accounts say. Perhaps more so a question of wondering where that wage bill was spent and there were lots of hefty wages in that squad - Cotterill, Coppinger (on such a good wage we had to loan him out to Forest for a period), Brown, Sullivan and Spurr to name but five lads. There were obviously more than those.

[BillyStubbsTears]

We stopped publishing full accounts effective for the end of the 2014/15 season and in recent times didn't publish them prior to the 2009/10 season. Absolutely insane to think we had a wage bill of nearly £10m (during The Experiment season of all seasons).

Total wage costs

2014/15 season - £4.12m (League One)
2013/14 season - £7.3m (Championship)
2012/13 season - £7.05m (League One)
2011/12 season - £9.36m (Championship)
2010/11 season - £7.5m (Championship)
2009/10 season - £6.6m (Championship)

Now? Probably between £2-£2.5m?

That explains the boardroom revolt that turfed Ryan out. Absolute madness, the way we were run that season.

[Chris Black come back]

Gap was pretty small due to Championship privileges of huge relative crowds and TV cash - income was around £8.3m against wage bill of around a million more. Overall loss that season was much higher though, of £3.5m. This was in spite of booking £1.5m from player sales, which would have been mostly or entirely upfront payment on sale of Billy Sharp.

[i_ateallthepies]

Weren’t McSheffrey and Schofield the outstanding candidates from all of the applications we had though?

You don’t throw away the opportunity when Moore left by giving the job to a first timer unless you don’t want promotion . Every other manager since left under a cloud WHY ? Imo the club was cutting back the amount money available and settling on playing L2 as wage bills and running costs can be managed prudently! Until Terry Bramhall stepping at the start of this season , ticket sales had nose dived and supporters were viewing with their feet . TB has pulled another stroke by bringing in a managers liked by the supporters but still put restraints on the wage bill . Imo we are not long for this league unless TB can find a buyer as even he has a limited on what he can put in .
Results are gained in this division by providing a positive outlook and the funds to back up the wishes of the club intent .
There are no guarantees of success but over time results grow as a consistency and momentum also grows with better results .?
But remove the positives and you end up 20th in L2 ..

We have a first team squad of more than 30 players. I'd guess that the wage bill is north of £40k/week.

Yet stop for a moment and ask yourself how many of those players would be regulars in any of the top three sides.

I'll start the bidding at "none".

It's not lack of funds that is the issue. It is three years of utterly dreadful recruitment. Culminating in that gutless abomination today.

Whatever people think, we literally cannot afford to get rid of McCann anyway.

We tried to introduce a system where we had a squad of players fit for a certain way of playing. We then just had to recruit managers who could make that system work. Recruitment was handled by the Head of Football.

This got dumped and McCann brought in, to have much more control over recruitment. So if people want him to go, then fine but we are then left yet again with a squad full of all sorts, signed by literally five different managers all with different styles of play.

So whether people like it or not we need to double down on McCann and let him build a squad over the next two windows. If we are 20th in League Two this time next season, then let's talk about him.

I completely agree with this, CBcb and I would say that if we actually are in League Two this time next season I will count that a success on McCann's account.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It seems to me that the club has been in descendency since we were last relegated from the Championship in 2015 after financial restraints were introduced as a means of self-sufficiency.

You keep quoting self sufficiency BB. You won't find any reference to self sufficiency. Self sustainable losses has been the way they have operated for the most part.

If we lose two out of three of our main benefactors, then is it any wonder they had to try to be a bit more prudent?

If self-sustainability isn't the right approach, then I'd just like to know how you would keep losses in check if you were to plan to be unsustainable?

JR said himself recently when reflecting, it wasn't sustainable. One of the factors he quoted was falling attendances despite playing championship football.

Maybe they reigned things in too far, maybe too cautious particularly with Covid hitting on the back of losing Dick Watson. Either way, it looks like TB has reassessed the situation but we have only just started the transition.

[i_ateallthepies]

DBR, I too make occasional comment about the sustainability claim made by the club but my ire is not at sustainability as an aspiration (I would love it to be achieved) but rather the crowing about having achieved sustainability when anyone with an ounce of sense can see that it has to be sustained along with all of the factors that affect it, namely stability of the club's league status.

What has been happening to the club since sustainability was claimed is that the league position has declined consistently resulting in a massive loss of gate revenues along with ongoing relative reduction in the playing budget.

So please tell me how where we are now can be called sustainability.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

DBR, I too make occasional comment about the sustainability claim made by the club but my ire is not at sustainability as an aspiration (I would love it to be achieved) but rather the crowing about having achieved sustainability when anyone with an ounce of sense can see that it has to be sustained along with all of the factors that affect it, namely stability of the club's league status.

What has been happening to the club since sustainability was claimed is that the league position has declined consistently resulting in a massive loss of gate revenues along with ongoing relative reduction in the playing budget.

So please tell me how where we are now can be called sustainability.

I was pointing out there's a difference between self sufficient and sustainable.

TB ultimately decides what is sustainable. However, there are some major factors contributing to why we haven't been getting value for money headed by instability.

The revolving door of managers, backroom staff including heads of recruitment.
Players brought in serving under different managers who have different ideas and methods.
An injury list that has eaten up a fair chunk of the each budget plus players who were just not up to it.

All these things compound and as you say.

If TB has indeed upped the ante by a) appointing the experience manager fans were crying out for and b) providing an enhanced budget for him to work with, he knows he has to sustain that over multiple seasons in order to provide the stability that's lacking.

McCann has so far assembled a bigger squad, appointed new backroom staff including key personnel in recruitment and medical. These will take time to see full benefit.

The signings made have been better but, we have a legacy which needs to be worked through. Plus, not every signing is going to be a potential money earner or can guarantee they stay injury free.

For a time, we will have to sustain a bigger squad while the poorer performers leave and hopefully the better performers are assembled.

[Bentley Bullet]

A system is self-sustaining (or self-sufficient) if it can sustain itself independently. The system's self-sustainability is the degree to which it can sustain itself without external support.

https://www.doncasterroversfc.co.uk/drfc/meet-the-owners---ownership/#:~:text=%22The%20Dons%20and%20Belles%20are,straight%20into%20the%20playing%20budget.%22

[DonnyBazR0ver]

You know full well, in the context of how the club was being run, the owners underwriting sustainable losses  They decided what was sustainable (or not as the case maybe)

Then there's the misinterpretation, or misunderstanding (some deliberate) of what the club communicated about the success of Club Doncaster, meaning that if anything happened to TB the club could still operate and not fold due to the income generated (obviously the level where we could operate is debatable) however TB chose to keep supporting the club (to what degree we've yet to see in the accounts). So people chose to interpret this as TB  intending to stop funding with a view to being self sufficient, rather than focusing on the positive that Club Doncaster means we are not just reliant on one man.

So, TB never intended to run the club to become purely self sufficient. Since then obviously he's stepped in to provide further funding up front as well as being there to underwrite the accounting losses.

[Bentley Bullet]

DBR.
Whether you call it self-sufficient or self-sustaining the point is the football team has been in decline for about 8 years now.

What do you think the problem is?

[In the box]

DBR.
Whether you call it self-sufficient or self-sustaining the point is the football team has been in decline for about 8 years now.

What do you think the problem is?

With the current direction still on the downward trend Terry Bramall has a big job to turn this around . Unless the fan base either grows or provides greater share of the clubs income .
John Ryan David Blunt  and Dick Watson have left or departed Rip .. and an octogenarian is now left holding the wooden spoon , trying to keep the faith in those  delegated to grow and expand the fortunes of DRFC and Club Doncaster .
Someone has failed the club and perhaps a fresh approach or new owners will change its course of direction .

[DonnyBazR0ver]

DBR.
Whether you call it self-sufficient or self-sustaining the point is the football team has been in decline for about 8 years now.

What do you think the problem is?

We've all covered it many times and will keep doing it but there is no one simple solution. 

As said above, it's turning out to be a more difficult job than many of us could foresee.

For starters, I bet we'd all love to find a way of reversing our fortunes on the injury front, so we aren't pissing so much good money on medical bills.

The changes that have already been made may bear fruit in the near future but we'll have to wait a while for that to be seen.

[Bentley Bullet]

It's something more than the fault of the team manager when you consider we've had nine different ones since our decline began around 2015.

Regarding injuries, it could be argued that we sign injury-prone or unfit players, or lightweights. Maybe it could be pitch issues, either the ECO power pitch or Cantley Park. Maybe it could be down to the medical staff, but as with the managers, they have come and gone and replacements don't seem to make any difference to the problem.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It's something more than the fault of the team manager when you consider we've had nine different ones since our decline began around 2015.

Regarding injuries, it could be argued that we sign injury-prone or unfit players, or lightweights. Maybe it could be pitch issues, either the ECO power pitch or Cantley Park. Maybe it could be down to the medical staff, but as with the managers, they have come and gone and replacements don't seem to make any difference to the problem.

Exactly. And that's why we need some stability to sort through the problems.

At least McCann said, post Notts he's excited about the challenge ahead. He has the benefit of knowing stuff we don't (yet).

Whichever way we look at it the manager (with the support of the board) has got to make some hard assessments on players (we do have some decent players too)  and not tar them all with the same brush. He'll have to be ruthless with some. A tactic that hasn't always gone well but he needs to weedle out the ones that have no future (or don't want to be here)

[Ronnie Dovers]

McCann is the biggest football related asset we have by a country mile. He's currently about 1.5 to 2 divisions below the level he's consistently and recently proven himself to be competent at. We've gotta get behind him and put some faith in him haven't we? I'm certainly prepared to.

[Lesonthewest]

McCann is the biggest football related asset we have by a country mile. He's currently about 1.5 to 2 divisions below the level he's consistently and recently proven himself to be competent at. We've gotta get behind him and put some faith in him haven't we? I'm certainly prepared to.

Bang on.

[pib]

McCann is the biggest football related asset we have by a country mile. He's currently about 1.5 to 2 divisions below the level he's consistently and recently proven himself to be competent at. We've gotta get behind him and put some faith in him haven't we? I'm certainly prepared to.

Bang on.

Thirded. I just pray we don’t panic and sack him. It’s shit at the moment, but he’s got a track record that should give us some reassurance that he can turn this around. Plus we just can’t afford to go through another overhaul. It hasn’t worked in the past. Now we’ve got an established manager, what we need is stability.

[Bentley Bullet]

I'm more concerned that he'll bugger off somewhere else if an offer comes along.

[normal rules]

 Bizarre situation to be in when the manager is a class or two above the playing staff . Very odd . But if he left we would be right royally fecked . And 20th in the National League would beckon

[drfchound]

Bizarre situation to be in when the manager is a class or two above the playing staff . Very odd . But if he left we would be right royally fecked . And 20th in the National League would beckon

…..and how long before a match against Rossington in August becomes a league game.

[Chris Black come back]

It’s been said before but warrants repeating - Terry must be sat with his head in his hands. All the hard work of the last 20 years and all the cash put into the club (probably most of which has come from him personally) yet we are pretty much back where we started almost. He built and ran a successful business. Must be shedding tears for how the club has eaten up his money and gone backwards at a prodigious rate. Every pound he is putting in over last couple of season is producing a negative return, we go backwards with no sign of this stopping.

[i_ateallthepies]

It’s been said before but warrants repeating - Terry must be sat with his head in his hands. All the hard work of the last 20 years and all the cash put into the club (probably most of which has come from him personally) yet we are pretty much back where we started almost. He built and ran a successful business. Must be shedding tears for how the club has eaten up his money and gone backwards at a prodigious rate. Every pound he is putting in over last couple of season is producing a negative return, we go backwards with no sign of this stopping.

That can only be because there have been and possibly still are people at the club in positions of influence who are not up to the job.  It can't possibly be all down to misfortune.

[NickDRFC]

It’s been said before but warrants repeating - Terry must be sat with his head in his hands. All the hard work of the last 20 years and all the cash put into the club (probably most of which has come from him personally) yet we are pretty much back where we started almost. He built and ran a successful business. Must be shedding tears for how the club has eaten up his money and gone backwards at a prodigious rate. Every pound he is putting in over last couple of season is producing a negative return, we go backwards with no sign of this stopping.

I agree to an extent and will always be extremely grateful for Terry’s continued and generous contributions but it’s not as though he’s been a silent investor with minimal influence into how the club has been operating. He’s been on a board of just 3 people the whole time and has continued to back Blunt as the Chairman during the decline (how many times have we heard that if Blunt were to go, Terry would too?) He deserves a huge amount of credit for the amount of money that he’s put in over the years, and equally a huge amount for stepping up now, but he also has to shoulder some of the responsibility for where we find ourselves now.