Post Office v COVID inquiry

[Donnywolf]

Interesting that Chalk the Justice Secretary says people will be subpoenaed to appear at Hearings / Court etc


Fine , but what if (playing devils advocate) they turn up and " can't remember" or have "lost" their records etc etc as a certain person has done recently AND let's face it he was only trying to remember back 18 months or so.


ALSO .. and yes I know and am really angered by the fact that unfortunate , desperate people lost their lives in this the PO scandal and lots are suffering and have suffered in a myriad of ways and for them I have NOTHING but my total sympathy


Now contrast that with Sunak and all the other , truth twisting , memory lapsing , WhatsApp losing people who have been CALLED to the COVID enquiry to help it to get insight into how we lost 200,000 lives and how to be prepared for and react to such a pandemic in the future and hopefully just hopefully drive that 200,000 death toll way way down


Yet they choose to conveniently forget

[Bentley Bullet]

Maybe the Labour Party of that time along with the Crown Prosecution Service will conveniently forget events from the Post Office scandal.

[Not Now Kato]

The prosecutions were private ones brought by the Post Office. In essence the PO were Perpetrator, Investigator and Accuser in court. The CPS were not involved, (in England & Wales - slightly different in Scotland).

[Donnywolf]

Well that was the "thrust" of my point in that Chalk says they HAVE to appear and give evidence. They, I suspect, being the bloke who says he will give evidence as long as he is given immunity beforehand

I immediately thought well what if they / he cant actually remember anything way back then and it goes back to 1999 and so involves all 3 main Parties in HOC ? What will Chalk and others do then ? Get the thumbscrews out ?

If I were one of "them" I would say just look at Sunak who couldnt remember 75% of things he was asked at COVID , and couldnt provide the WhatsApps nor hundreds of documents AND where any one of the 3 elements may have been evIdential in exposing any wrongdoing by him or others , all in the framework of trying to avoid 200,000 deaths in the future

Who knows who will be in charge next time a Pandemic calls ? Maybe a Green Lib Dem middle of the road Govt , but it would be fairer on whoever is / was in charge next time round to have the reference book to show them what was learned from the last Covid Pandemic surely

[Bentley Bullet]

The prosecutions were private ones brought by the Post Office. In essence the PO were Perpetrator, Investigator and Accuser in court. The CPS were not involved, (in England & Wales - slightly different in Scotland).

10 cases taken by the CPS resulted in convictions.

[Bentley Bullet]

Well that was the "thrust" of my point in that Chalk says they HAVE to appear and give evidence. They, I suspect, being the bloke who says he will give evidence as long as he is given immunity beforehand

I immediately thought well what if they / he cant actually remember anything way back then and it goes back to 1999 and so involves all 3 main Parties in HOC ? What will Chalk and others do then ? Get the thumbscrews out ?

If I were one of "them" I would say just look at Sunak who couldnt remember 75% of things he was asked at COVID , and couldnt provide the WhatsApps nor hundreds of documents AND where any one of the 3 elements may have been evIdential in exposing any wrongdoing by him or others , all in the framework of trying to avoid 200,000 deaths in the future

Who knows who will be in charge next time a Pandemic calls ? Maybe a Green Lib Dem middle of the road Govt , but it would be fairer on whoever is / was in charge next time round to have the reference book to show them what was learned from the last Covid Pandemic surely

My point is, and always has been, had a Labour government been in office during and after the COVID pandemic the attitude and sympathy towards the task would have been far different, not least on this forum.

[Not Now Kato]

Well that was the "thrust" of my point in that Chalk says they HAVE to appear and give evidence. They, I suspect, being the bloke who says he will give evidence as long as he is given immunity beforehand

I immediately thought well what if they / he cant actually remember anything way back then and it goes back to 1999 and so involves all 3 main Parties in HOC ? What will Chalk and others do then ? Get the thumbscrews out ?

If I were one of "them" I would say just look at Sunak who couldnt remember 75% of things he was asked at COVID , and couldnt provide the WhatsApps nor hundreds of documents AND where any one of the 3 elements may have been evIdential in exposing any wrongdoing by him or others , all in the framework of trying to avoid 200,000 deaths in the future

Who knows who will be in charge next time a Pandemic calls ? Maybe a Green Lib Dem middle of the road Govt , but it would be fairer on whoever is / was in charge next time round to have the reference book to show them what was learned from the last Covid Pandemic surely

One of the postmasters, a lady, was on TV this morning. Apparently she's going to attend the inquiry and is taking with her a notepad and pen to jot down the number of times the "I can't remember" words are used.  A case of expect the expected.
 
If I were running the enquiry I'd start with the people on the Help Desk - the ones who told each postmaster they were the only one experiencing this problem. Question. "did you decide to say this off your own bat or were you told to do so and, if so, by who"; and so on up the ladder. I can't see someone at the lower levels taking the fall for those above; follow the chain.

[Not Now Kato]

The prosecutions were private ones brought by the Post Office. In essence the PO were Perpetrator, Investigator and Accuser in court. The CPS were not involved, (in England & Wales - slightly different in Scotland).

10 cases taken by the CPS resulted in convictions.

Out of over 700 cases!  Were they ones taken in Scotland as I pointed out the e rules were different there? Also, do you have a time frame for when these 10 were taken?

[Bentley Bullet]

The prosecutions were private ones brought by the Post Office. In essence the PO were Perpetrator, Investigator and Accuser in court. The CPS were not involved, (in England & Wales - slightly different in Scotland).

10 cases taken by the CPS resulted in convictions.

Out of over 700 cases!  Were they ones taken in Scotland as I pointed out the e rules were different there? Also, do you have a time frame for when these 10 were taken?

You said the CPS was not involved. It was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS has confirmed it carried out prosecutions linked to the Post Office Horizon scandal - but can't (or won't) say when it happened.

Why are you so defensive of the CPS around that time? Is it because Keir Starmer was the leader of it by any chance?
 

[Not Now Kato]

The prosecutions were private ones brought by the Post Office. In essence the PO were Perpetrator, Investigator and Accuser in court. The CPS were not involved, (in England & Wales - slightly different in Scotland).

10 cases taken by the CPS resulted in convictions.

Out of over 700 cases!  Were they ones taken in Scotland as I pointed out the e rules were different there? Also, do you have a time frame for when these 10 were taken?

You said the CPS was not involved. It was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS has confirmed it carried out prosecutions linked to the Post Office Horizon scandal - but can't (or won't) say when it happened.

Why are you so defensive of the CPS around that time? Is it because Keir Starmer was the leader of it by any chance?

Again, out of over 700 cases brought BB!  And you didn't answer my question, were they brought in Scotland where the rules, as I'd already pointed out, were different anyway?
 
And where on earth do you get me defending the CPS and/or Starmer from?
 
Seems to me you're just nit picking.

[Bentley Bullet]

YOU SAID THE CPS WAS NOT INVOLVED! I'm correcting you by saying it was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS might learn of a private prosecution via a press report. However, the CPS' legal guidance on private prosecutions explains that in such circumstances, in the absence of a specific request, “no action will generally be taken unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

The CPS must have (obviously) thought a vast majority of those cases weren't exceptional!

I don't know whether the cases were brought in Scotland. Do you? I'm basing my point on the CPS, and if the CPS doesn't have authority in Scotland, I am unaware of it.

Why did you say The CPS was not involved in ANY of the convictions if you're not defending it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well that was the "thrust" of my point in that Chalk says they HAVE to appear and give evidence. They, I suspect, being the bloke who says he will give evidence as long as he is given immunity beforehand

I immediately thought well what if they / he cant actually remember anything way back then and it goes back to 1999 and so involves all 3 main Parties in HOC ? What will Chalk and others do then ? Get the thumbscrews out ?

If I were one of "them" I would say just look at Sunak who couldnt remember 75% of things he was asked at COVID , and couldnt provide the WhatsApps nor hundreds of documents AND where any one of the 3 elements may have been evIdential in exposing any wrongdoing by him or others , all in the framework of trying to avoid 200,000 deaths in the future

Who knows who will be in charge next time a Pandemic calls ? Maybe a Green Lib Dem middle of the road Govt , but it would be fairer on whoever is / was in charge next time round to have the reference book to show them what was learned from the last Covid Pandemic surely

My point is, and always has been, had a Labour government been in office during and after the COVID pandemic the attitude and sympathy towards the task would have been far different, not least on this forum.

And, as always, your bike and bias means you miss the point.

If a Labour government had been in power during the start of COVID, we wouldn't have had a PM turning in front of the nation saying he'd just been to a hospital and shook hands with everyone, immediately after the Chief Medical Officer had implored people to reduce contact.

Actually, I'm sure you DO get it, but you're too obsessively partisan to admit it.

[Not Now Kato]

YOU SAID THE CPS WAS NOT INVOLVED! I'm correcting you by saying it was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS might learn of a private prosecution via a press report. However, the CPS' legal guidance on private prosecutions explains that in such circumstances, in the absence of a specific request, “no action will generally be taken unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

The CPS must have (obviously) thought a vast majority of those cases weren't exceptional!

I don't know whether the cases were brought in Scotland. Do you? I'm basing my point on the CPS, and if the CPS doesn't have authority in Scotland, I am unaware of it.

Why did you say The CPS was not involved in ANY of the convictions if you're not defending it?

Ah, so it's all the fault of the CPS.  Who'd have thought it!
 
Stop nit picking and grow up!

[Not Now Kato]

The enquiry is proving very interesting, much buck passing.  The live link is well worth following if anyone is interested....
 
https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk
 
Currently taking a break and resumes around 11:50

[Bentley Bullet]

Well that was the "thrust" of my point in that Chalk says they HAVE to appear and give evidence. They, I suspect, being the bloke who says he will give evidence as long as he is given immunity beforehand

I immediately thought well what if they / he cant actually remember anything way back then and it goes back to 1999 and so involves all 3 main Parties in HOC ? What will Chalk and others do then ? Get the thumbscrews out ?

If I were one of "them" I would say just look at Sunak who couldnt remember 75% of things he was asked at COVID , and couldnt provide the WhatsApps nor hundreds of documents AND where any one of the 3 elements may have been evIdential in exposing any wrongdoing by him or others , all in the framework of trying to avoid 200,000 deaths in the future

Who knows who will be in charge next time a Pandemic calls ? Maybe a Green Lib Dem middle of the road Govt , but it would be fairer on whoever is / was in charge next time round to have the reference book to show them what was learned from the last Covid Pandemic surely

My point is, and always has been, had a Labour government been in office during and after the COVID pandemic the attitude and sympathy towards the task would have been far different, not least on this forum.

And, as always, your bike and bias means you miss the point.

If a Labour government had been in power during the start of COVID, we wouldn't have had a PM turning in front of the nation saying he'd just been to a hospital and shook hands with everyone, immediately after the Chief Medical Officer had implored people to reduce contact.

Actually, I'm sure you DO get it, but you're too obsessively partisan to admit it.

I've been asked to ignore you, otherwise, I'd tell you that your partisan support of The Labour Party is rather obsessive, especially given how piss-poor it is.

[Bentley Bullet]

YOU SAID THE CPS WAS NOT INVOLVED! I'm correcting you by saying it was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS might learn of a private prosecution via a press report. However, the CPS' legal guidance on private prosecutions explains that in such circumstances, in the absence of a specific request, “no action will generally be taken unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

The CPS must have (obviously) thought a vast majority of those cases weren't exceptional!

I don't know whether the cases were brought in Scotland. Do you? I'm basing my point on the CPS, and if the CPS doesn't have authority in Scotland, I am unaware of it.

Why did you say The CPS was not involved in ANY of the convictions if you're not defending it?

Ah, so it's all the fault of the CPS.  Who'd have thought it
Stop nit picking and grow up!

I didn't say that, I'm sure The Labour Party was also responsible in some way or another!

Dad.

[drfchound]

YOU SAID THE CPS WAS NOT INVOLVED! I'm correcting you by saying it was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS might learn of a private prosecution via a press report. However, the CPS' legal guidance on private prosecutions explains that in such circumstances, in the absence of a specific request, “no action will generally be taken unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

The CPS must have (obviously) thought a vast majority of those cases weren't exceptional!

I don't know whether the cases were brought in Scotland. Do you? I'm basing my point on the CPS, and if the CPS doesn't have authority in Scotland, I am unaware of it.

Why did you say The CPS was not involved in ANY of the convictions if you're not defending it?

Ah, so it's all the fault of the CPS.  Who'd have thought it!
 
Stop nit picking and grow up!

BB has not said that it’s all the fault of the CPS.
Just where are you suggesting he did say that.

[Not Now Kato]

YOU SAID THE CPS WAS NOT INVOLVED! I'm correcting you by saying it was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS might learn of a private prosecution via a press report. However, the CPS' legal guidance on private prosecutions explains that in such circumstances, in the absence of a specific request, “no action will generally be taken unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

The CPS must have (obviously) thought a vast majority of those cases weren't exceptional!

I don't know whether the cases were brought in Scotland. Do you? I'm basing my point on the CPS, and if the CPS doesn't have authority in Scotland, I am unaware of it.

Why did you say The CPS was not involved in ANY of the convictions if you're not defending it?

Ah, so it's all the fault of the CPS.  Who'd have thought it!
 
Stop nit picking and grow up!

BB has not said that it’s all the fault of the CPS.
Just where are you suggesting he did say that.

I see BB's lap dog is quick to jump in on something that doesn't concern him. Appropriately named 'hound', appropriately named.   

[Bentley Bullet]

YOU SAID THE CPS WAS NOT INVOLVED! I'm correcting you by saying it was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS might learn of a private prosecution via a press report. However, the CPS' legal guidance on private prosecutions explains that in such circumstances, in the absence of a specific request, “no action will generally be taken unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

The CPS must have (obviously) thought a vast majority of those cases weren't exceptional!

I don't know whether the cases were brought in Scotland. Do you? I'm basing my point on the CPS, and if the CPS doesn't have authority in Scotland, I am unaware of it.

Why did you say The CPS was not involved in ANY of the convictions if you're not defending it?

Ah, so it's all the fault of the CPS.  Who'd have thought it!
 
Stop nit picking and grow up!

BB has not said that it’s all the fault of the CPS.
Just where are you suggesting he did say that.

Cheers Hound! I thought I was cracking up at first! Talking with the likes of NNK can result in rather contagious brain confusion.

[drfchound]

YOU SAID THE CPS WAS NOT INVOLVED! I'm correcting you by saying it was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS might learn of a private prosecution via a press report. However, the CPS' legal guidance on private prosecutions explains that in such circumstances, in the absence of a specific request, “no action will generally be taken unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

The CPS must have (obviously) thought a vast majority of those cases weren't exceptional!

I don't know whether the cases were brought in Scotland. Do you? I'm basing my point on the CPS, and if the CPS doesn't have authority in Scotland, I am unaware of it.

Why did you say The CPS was not involved in ANY of the convictions if you're not defending it?

Ah, so it's all the fault of the CPS.  Who'd have thought it!
 
Stop nit picking and grow up!

BB has not said that it’s all the fault of the CPS.
Just where are you suggesting he did say that.

I see BB's lap dog is quick to jump in on something that doesn't concern him. Appropriately named 'hound', appropriately named.   

But it does concern me NNK.
I have an interest in this thread and reserve the right to comment.
Why did you jump in when BB was conversing with DW on the subject.
I also haven’t resorted to personal insults either.

[Bentley Bullet]

Well said that man!

[Not Now Kato]

YOU SAID THE CPS WAS NOT INVOLVED! I'm correcting you by saying it was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS might learn of a private prosecution via a press report. However, the CPS' legal guidance on private prosecutions explains that in such circumstances, in the absence of a specific request, “no action will generally be taken unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

The CPS must have (obviously) thought a vast majority of those cases weren't exceptional!

I don't know whether the cases were brought in Scotland. Do you? I'm basing my point on the CPS, and if the CPS doesn't have authority in Scotland, I am unaware of it.

Why did you say The CPS was not involved in ANY of the convictions if you're not defending it?

Ah, so it's all the fault of the CPS.  Who'd have thought it!
 
Stop nit picking and grow up!

BB has not said that it’s all the fault of the CPS.
Just where are you suggesting he did say that.

Cheers Hound! I thought I was cracking up at first! Talking with the likes of NNK can result in rather contagious brain confusion.

You cracked up years ago BB.

[Bentley Bullet]

YOU SAID THE CPS WAS NOT INVOLVED! I'm correcting you by saying it was linked to up to 38 cases where it brought criminal cases, but only 10 were convicted.

The CPS might learn of a private prosecution via a press report. However, the CPS' legal guidance on private prosecutions explains that in such circumstances, in the absence of a specific request, “no action will generally be taken unless there are exceptional circumstances”.

The CPS must have (obviously) thought a vast majority of those cases weren't exceptional!

I don't know whether the cases were brought in Scotland. Do you? I'm basing my point on the CPS, and if the CPS doesn't have authority in Scotland, I am unaware of it.

Why did you say The CPS was not involved in ANY of the convictions if you're not defending it?

Ah, so it's all the fault of the CPS.  Who'd have thought it!
 
Stop nit picking and grow up!

BB has not said that it’s all the fault of the CPS.
Just where are you suggesting he did say that.

Cheers Hound! I thought I was cracking up at first! Talking with the likes of NNK can result in rather contagious brain confusion.

You cracked up years ago BB.

Aye, I cracked up at your responses years ago, and I'm still laughing now!

[SydneyRover]

''Post office owner says Horizon system was used to frame him for wife’s murder
Robin Garbutt hopes for fresh appeal against conviction that came after jury heard evidence using data from discredited IT system''

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-owner-says-horizon-system-was-used-to-frame-him-for-wifes-murder

[drfchound]

It is good to see that people are now talking about PO executives having to pay back bonuses that they received while the Horizon debacle was taking place.

[ravenrover]

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/feb/18/former-post-office-boss-stall-horizon-compensation-payouts
Make of it what you will

[Not Now Kato]

If you watch anything about the Horizon scandal witch one of their legal bods....
 
https://www.postofficehorizoninquiry.org.uk/hearings/phase-4-30-november-2023
 
 
His responses to things he's done/said are very BB esque.

[SydneyRover]

This maybe covered in your vid kato

''Cameron government knew Post Office ditched Horizon IT investigation''

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68146054

It just keeps on growing .............

[drfchound]

Amazing how the bbc are discredited by posters on here, unless of course they happen to fall in line with government bashing.
It’s a bit like when Cummings was apparently a pathological liar when he was supporting Johnson’s government (some said he was actually running the government) and yet these days when he is giving evidence against them he is the purveyor of the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

[Bentley Bullet]

Amazing how the bbc are discredited by posters on here, unless of course they happen to fall in line with government bashing.
It’s a bit like when Cummings was apparently a pathological liar when he was supporting Johnson’s government (some said he was actually running the government) and yet these days when he is giving evidence against them he is the purveyor of the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

You couldn't make it up, could you? Grown-up politics eh!