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Quote from: Not Now Kato on February 07, 2024, 10:59:59 amReform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party? If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole. Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it. https://www.britannica.com/topic/populismWhere is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t?
Reform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party? If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole. Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it. https://www.britannica.com/topic/populism
Quote from: Sprotyrover on February 08, 2024, 02:12:09 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on February 07, 2024, 10:59:59 amReform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party? If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole. Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it. https://www.britannica.com/topic/populismWhere is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t? The link was about populism with examples of why and how it fails. But if you're on about Germans protesting against the far right it was on all the UK news networks the other day and it's also readily available on the Net. For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjOc0F-n4w
Quote from: Not Now Kato on February 08, 2024, 02:17:55 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on February 08, 2024, 02:12:09 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on February 07, 2024, 10:59:59 amReform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party? If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole. Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it. https://www.britannica.com/topic/populismWhere is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t? The link was about populism with examples of why and how it fails. But if you're on about Germans protesting against the far right it was on all the UK news networks the other day and it's also readily available on the Net. For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjOc0F-n4wSo you think a bunch of sooty students and Gays are voicing the concerns of German society as whole, the childish remark on the cardboard placard says it all!
Quote from: Sprotyrover on February 08, 2024, 04:11:26 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on February 08, 2024, 02:17:55 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on February 08, 2024, 02:12:09 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on February 07, 2024, 10:59:59 amReform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party? If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole. Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it. https://www.britannica.com/topic/populismWhere is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t? The link was about populism with examples of why and how it fails. But if you're on about Germans protesting against the far right it was on all the UK news networks the other day and it's also readily available on the Net. For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjOc0F-n4wSo you think a bunch of sooty students and Gays are voicing the concerns of German society as whole, the childish remark on the cardboard placard says it all! So Walter, what do you know about how the Germans think?
This thread is sadly indicative of the tribalist attitude and lack of nuance permeating society. If you're not in fabvour of X then you must be in favour of Y. You're speaking out against something, why aren't you speaking out against another? It's frustrating and infuriating.I share Billy's contempt for the wilful mismanagement of the economy to benefit the few, not the many and the way the Conservative party have swung drastically to the right, shouting "look over here at the brown people on boats" while they dip into the working people's back pockets to feather then nests of their mates. And more so how so many hard-working lower or mid income people have lapped it up. The politics of hate and division backed up by a few "jam tomorrow" promises that are never kept.I genuinely don't feel there's a party that fully represents my broadly centrist views but the nearest one is the Lib Dems of which I'm a member. If I had a lot more time on my hands I'd be more actively involved in trying to influence policy but pretty much the only recreational activity I have time for at the moment is following a godawful fourth division football team.I'll be voting tactically in the next election to support whichever candidate to the left of the now almost comically right wing Tory party has the best chance of winning. Not because I hate the Conservative Party per-se but because I am appalled at what it has become and how it has utterly failed the nation whilst a select few have had their noses firmly in the trough.
The key for a Tory Chancellor is to create conditions such as recession and inflation to enable the rich to buy cheap then sell at a profit. This has always been the case. Leaving or being thrown out after creating a catastrophe for the many, and a bumper harvest for the few, is simply part of the game.
Some good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.
Quote from: scawsby steve on February 08, 2024, 09:37:12 pmSome good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.
Quote from: Not Now Kato on February 08, 2024, 04:48:30 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on February 08, 2024, 04:11:26 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on February 08, 2024, 02:17:55 pmQuote from: Sprotyrover on February 08, 2024, 02:12:09 pmQuote from: Not Now Kato on February 07, 2024, 10:59:59 amReform? The seriously ultra right far right wing party? If they take away Labour's traditional support then the country is well and truly f*%ked! The rise of the ultra right and populism is a serious risk to the country as a whole. Even the Germans see it as a serious risk and are protesting about it. https://www.britannica.com/topic/populismWhere is the evidence to supply your remark the link you posted doesn’t? The link was about populism with examples of why and how it fails. But if you're on about Germans protesting against the far right it was on all the UK news networks the other day and it's also readily available on the Net. For example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_PjOc0F-n4wSo you think a bunch of sooty students and Gays are voicing the concerns of German society as whole, the childish remark on the cardboard placard says it all! So Walter, what do you know about how the Germans think?I think you are childish for a start!https://www.cnbc.com/2023/10/03/germany-shifts-to-the-right-with-anti-immigration-afd-ahead-in-polls.htmlhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eS90uDEbJDI
Quote from: Mike_F on February 09, 2024, 11:33:40 amQuote from: scawsby steve on February 08, 2024, 09:37:12 pmSome good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.For Christ's sake, don't criticise pensioners in here!As for Clegg, he wasn't naive. He was simply unprincipled. He campaigned on being more economically left wing than Labour, then when the chance of a seat at the top table was offered, he enabled the most right wing batshit economics experiment since the 1930s. He justified that (and I shit you not) by saying he (him personally) had "changed his mind" in the last couple of days before the 2010 Election.He now plays the role of Facebook's social conscience,while it's used to undermine democracies and enable genocide.In a strong field, he's the third biggest Kitson in our politics over the past 20 years, behind Farage and Johnson.
Quote from: Mike_F on February 09, 2024, 11:33:40 amQuote from: scawsby steve on February 08, 2024, 09:37:12 pmSome good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.For Christ's sake, don't criticise pensioners in here!As for Clegg, he wasn't naive. He was simply unprincipled. He campaigned on being more economically left wing than Labour, then when the chance of a seat at the top table was offered, he enabled the most right wing batshit economics experiment since the 1930s. He justified that (and I shit you not) by saying he (him personally) had "changed his mind" in the last couple of days before the 2010 Election.He now plays the role of Facebook's social conscience,while it's used to undermine democracies and enable genocide.In a strong field, he's the third biggest Kitson in our politics over the past 20 years, behind Farage and Johnson.
Quote from: scawsby steve on February 08, 2024, 09:37:12 pmSome good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.
Quote from: scawsby steve on February 08, 2024, 09:37:12 pmSome good points in there, Mike. However, have you forgotten the treachery of the Lib Dems in 2010, when they got into bed with the Tories in return for jobs for the boys in the Cabinet?It was a truly horrible spectacle of snake oil salesmanship, and lost the Lib Dems countless seats and supporters.I was waiting for a response like this, Steve. I'd like to think serious lessons have been learned and the party has moved on (after all, both Labour and the Tories are much further to the right than they were then). That said, the biggest sin of the Clegg coalition IMHO was political naivety. The Conservatives are experts at setting others up to fail and they did a great job of disenfranchising floating LD voters for a generation.Going into coalition, the LDs got numerous manifesto policies agreed on the condition that they capitulated on one policy. What Clegg was too blinded by ego to realise or consider was that the one policy they had to give up was the only one that mattered to a large swathe of their members and voters. While the changes to liberty on the roll-back of national ID cards, support for poorer children in education and the like all went under the radar, the failure of the pledge to end tuition fees is the only thing that Clegg and his cohort will be remembered for.Going off on a related tangent, see also how the Conservatives set up Labour councils to fail. They deliberately and knowingly made the biggest "austerity" cuts in poorer areas where Labour or No Overall Control councils operated so that people would blame the incumbent councils' parties for failing them. All the while, they (Cons) have been playing on the fears of working class people in demonising "the other" whether that's brown people, European politicians or international students. I 'll repeat my earlier assertion that sadly it's working. I see comments all the time about how the Labour council is failing Doncaster but very rarely an acknowledgement that the perceived failings are due to it having one hand tied behind its back and having its wallet pilfered by the Conservative central government.Too many people (including in my experience a high percentage of 50-70 year old age women, my own mother and mother-in-law included) fell for the "cuddly buffoon" image that was a front for the devious, Machiavellian workings of the current Conservative party.