George Galloway MP

[mugnapper]

This may help some know where they sit

https://www.britainschoice.uk/the-quiz/

Wow!! That survey got me bang on. Progressive Activist. 'Well Educated, urban and more likely to be in work'. (1 out of 3 ain't bad).
I must admit I've always been sceptical about surveys since I did one in the mid 70's which said that Woody was my favourite Bay City Roller when everyone knows it was Alan!

[ncRover]

Inflation is a major factor in the current stagnation.

That inflation was driven by the energy price increases linked to Russia's invasion. Unless Labour had a plan in the 2010s to produce more of our own energy, they would not have had an effect on that.

But Labour have argued that their "Windfall Tax" would have eased the cost of living crisis for consumers. Would that have sorted the problem or just kicked the can down the road? People forget that those record energy profits will still have had lots of tax paid on them. BP argues that those profits are reinvested in to supporting green initiatives. Perhaps those profits are needed to cover the impending energy transition and to protect themselves? That green energy transition won't be possible without the private sector.

That green transition is also taking a step back to potentially take 2 forwards (I hope). Labour want to speed that up.

Record tax burden and government spending

The current conservative government has overseen both the UK's largest peacetime tax burden and rates of government borrowing. 36.9% of GDP and 14.5% of GDP respectively.

This drives inflationary pressure.

But in the last few years from Labour quarters we have seen calls to have increased government support in terms of:

- Covid support (wider furlough scheme, stricter and longer restrictions)
- Increased mortgage support
- A more extensive energy support scheme.

And then of course calls for increased spending on infrastructure and education. I'm not necessarily knocking those but they cost money and feeds back in to the main driver here - Inflation.

These things would help in the long term and benefits would take time to see, but the calls for increased spending and support over the last few years would have surely increased inflationary pressure over the short term of the last 5 years?

Poor productivity is another aspect which needs a deep dive. My worry is that when things take time for Labour to turn around that that just leads to calls for further gov regulation, intereference and spending until we spiral further left and in to poorer productivity and bankruptcy.

Open for debate and correction here, I've rushed this a bit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

NC

We have never ever spiralled into poorer productivity and bankruptcy under any previous Labour govt. Why do you see that as a problem this time?

[ravenrover]

Fossil Fuel companies investing in green, but the Tory colour is blue. Someones a bit colour blind

[selby]

No Billy your right they just took peoples pension money  to cover it.

[ncRover]

NC

We have never ever spiralled into poorer productivity and bankruptcy under any previous Labour govt. Why do you see that as a problem this time?

The world is a more volatile place now and as Tommy C has said the global economy is stagnating and there are supply chain issues. 90s were the good times, big technological boom then that will have driven progress. Maybe AI will speed things up again now.

Ageing population and further declining birth rates below replacement rate will cause more problems too.

Energy market drives everything and the gov is guiding it now less so natural choice.

I’d be interested to hear your thoughts on the points in my post though mate

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tommy.

I entirely agree that few countries dealt with the aftermath of the GFC well, but that absolutely doesn't let off the Tories for the disastrous mistakes they made.

There was nothing written in stone insisting that the global performance should have been below par. Each actor made their own errors, and the fact that others did so does not absolve the Tories.

The EZ ran very tight monetary policy, and stupidly insisted on not underwriting national debt for too long, making the Euro crisis worse than it should have been. In more recent years, Germany has allowed it's phobia of Govt debt to militate against fiscal stimulus after COVID (their Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional, which is the economic equivalent of making a swimmer compete while using only one arm).

In America, Obama knew that fiscal stimulus was required after the 2008 crash and they did borrow and spend, although most economists think they didn't go hard enough. But they had by far the best response of any G7 nation as a result, until the Republicans took over Congress in 2010 and blocked further stimulus spending for party political reasons. Biden's victory in 2020 was followed by very big fiscal stimulus spending, since when their economic growth has streaked away from that of the UK and EZ.

We chose the madness of Austerity because deficit and debt were what the Tories alighted on as their way to beat Brown. The economics was idiotic. It was all driven by political opportunism. And worse, we did Austerity in THE most damaging way, by cutting capital investment.

Like I say, there was nothing inevitable about a decade and more of suppressed growth. Countries chose it. The fact that several did does not diminish the individual responsibility of each one.

[ncRover]

I was born in ‘95 so I’d like to ask:

Why did Blair’s majority decrease with every election?

Was it solely over Iraq and losing votes to the Lib Dem’s over that or were there other criticisms?

[wilts rover]

TC, you make some excellent observations in your two above posts which many people will see and understand to be correct.
Others will try to dissuade you and lecture you on why you are wrong, which is their right of course.
It will be interesting to read what will inevitably follow.
I’m just wondering though why you are talking about 15 years of Tory government when it is actually coming up to 14 years.
I spotted that another poster had said 15 years a day or two ago but I thought it was just to back up his dislike of the Tory’s.

Good point regarding the 15/14 years. I hadnt actually counted but just took it from what another poster said.

Yes I think it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years of Labour rule. I look forward to seing whether they do indeed have the magic wand required to fix our broken economy.

I'm reminded of the rather tasteless letter left by Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury Liam Byrne when the Tories got in back in 2010. He left a note on his desk for his Conservative successor that simply said "I'm afraid there is no money left....signed Liam Byrne." 

 

It was meant as a joke. All outgoing chancellors since Churchill in the 1930's had done it - but in only one case had it been weaponised by the incoming party.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

The National Debt is now two and a half times what is was when he wrote that note - so we now have two and a half times more less money than 2010. If you want to pick-up on that.

[wilts rover]

I'm not really disagreeing with you or the article though Syd. Economic performance for the last 15 years has been terrible. How could anyone argue otherwise?!

What I'm saying is that the extent to which it can be blamed on the party that has been in Government for the last 15 years is being somewhat overstated, including by that Article. Do you really think things would be massively different if we'd had a Labour government for the last 15 years? I mean the stuff you see and experience in every day life, the cost of living, how much money you get in your pay packet, NHS waiting lists etc. A different Government may indeed have been better at tinkering around the edges and we may indeed be in a better position now had Labour been in power. I'm absolutely happy to acknoweldge that. However, the effect of hat positive impact they may have had, is still a drop in the ocean when placed in the context of a global economic picture that has been terrible for everyone.

Of course the economy would be in a totally different place now o what it was in 2010 if Labour had been in power.

We would not have followed an Austerity policy that hollowed out our public services and left the NHS in no fit state to manage people's health never mind fight a pandemic (which the Tories own report said). It's gone from one of the best in the world to one of the worst.

We also would not have had a Brexit referendum and the subsequent economic fall off. Or the economic crash under Truss & Kwarteng.

I dont have a cyrstal ball so I cant say what would have happened. But it would certainly have been different to what the Tories brought.

[drfchound]

TC, you make some excellent observations in your two above posts which many people will see and understand to be correct.
Others will try to dissuade you and lecture you on why you are wrong, which is their right of course.
It will be interesting to read what will inevitably follow.
I’m just wondering though why you are talking about 15 years of Tory government when it is actually coming up to 14 years.
I spotted that another poster had said 15 years a day or two ago but I thought it was just to back up his dislike of the Tory’s.

Good point regarding the 15/14 years. I hadnt actually counted but just took it from what another poster said.

Yes I think it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years of Labour rule. I look forward to seing whether they do indeed have the magic wand required to fix our broken economy.

I'm reminded of the rather tasteless letter left by Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury Liam Byrne when the Tories got in back in 2010. He left a note on his desk for his Conservative successor that simply said "I'm afraid there is no money left....signed Liam Byrne." 

 

It was meant as a joke. All outgoing chancellors since Churchill in the 1930's had done it - but in only one case had it been weaponised by the incoming party.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

The National Debt is now two and a half times what is was when he wrote that note - so we now have two and a half times more less money than 2010. If you want to pick-up on that.

I suppose that if we hadn’t heaped all that financial support to the Ukraine over the last two years, or employed the furlough scheme during covid to preserve many UK businesses, that our ND would have been a bit lower.
Shame on the government for doing those things.

[wilts rover]

I was born in ‘95 so I’d like to ask:

Why did Blair’s majority decrease with every election?

Was it solely over Iraq and losing votes to the Lib Dem’s over that or were there other criticisms?

Not the whole answer but this is a good starting point. A graph of how the media sets the agenda depending on which party is in power:

[BillyStubbsTears]

They didn't lose many between 97 and 01. 418 to 412.

That is an astonishingly high level of seats for any one election, never mind 2 in a row.

My recollection though is that popularity was already slipping because things didn't change much. The first Blair Govt stuck remorselessly to the tax and spending plans they'd inherited from Major. It wasn't until 2001 that Brown released the reins a bit and we started to see sustained investment in schools, rail and the NHS.

I've never been convinced that Iraq was a defining issue as regards the popularity of Blair's Government. Yes a few stopped supporting Labour on principle, but it was only a few according to polls.



The big drop in support had already happened between 01 and early 03.

My recollection is that there wasn't any huge event that it could be put down to. More a wearing off of the gloss that Blair came in with, and perhaps the first inklings that something had changed. The pie was getting bigger but wages weren't. Brown tried dealing with that by a large set of tax credits, and the result of that WAS more money in more people's pockets. But getting what people see as a handout is not the same as seeing it in your top line wage. Perhaps, I dunno.

But whatever the reason, Blair was a spent force after 05. He was deeply unpopular by then. If you're going to put yourself forward as the Messiah, you'd better deliver, and overall he didn't. There was a big boost in Labour support after Brown took over, but he was torpedoed by the GFC and was never going to win in those economic circumstances.

[wilts rover]

TC, you make some excellent observations in your two above posts which many people will see and understand to be correct.
Others will try to dissuade you and lecture you on why you are wrong, which is their right of course.
It will be interesting to read what will inevitably follow.
I’m just wondering though why you are talking about 15 years of Tory government when it is actually coming up to 14 years.
I spotted that another poster had said 15 years a day or two ago but I thought it was just to back up his dislike of the Tory’s.

Good point regarding the 15/14 years. I hadnt actually counted but just took it from what another poster said.

Yes I think it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years of Labour rule. I look forward to seing whether they do indeed have the magic wand required to fix our broken economy.

I'm reminded of the rather tasteless letter left by Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury Liam Byrne when the Tories got in back in 2010. He left a note on his desk for his Conservative successor that simply said "I'm afraid there is no money left....signed Liam Byrne." 

 

It was meant as a joke. All outgoing chancellors since Churchill in the 1930's had done it - but in only one case had it been weaponised by the incoming party.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

The National Debt is now two and a half times what is was when he wrote that note - so we now have two and a half times more less money than 2010. If you want to pick-up on that.

I suppose that if we hadn’t heaped all that financial support to the Ukraine over the last two years, or employed the furlough scheme during covid to preserve many UK businesses, that our ND would have been a bit lower.
Shame on the government for doing those things.

I posted this the other week when someone else posted that (or was it you?). That has produced a very minor rise in National Debt.

And not forgetting that the scheme(s) the government (Sunak) came up with during covid are thought to have cost the taxpayer around £16 billion in fraud and overpayment (dodgy deals with Tory donors - including Sunak's wife etc).

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/23/uk-lost-up-to-16bn-due-to-and-error-in-covid-loans-schemes

[Bristol Red Rover]

The question is not whether the country has a debt, it's who owns the assets, who is the debt oweed to? And how much money are those individuals making?

Some will say it's "investments", pension schemes etc. No, it is individuals making vast wealth on this and other asset grabbing.

And those individuals, like Sunak, not paying their taxes here, as in the correct amount for such profitting, but paying cheap tax to off shore countries. Scum they are, as are the establishment that protects them, the media that protects them. And then there's the fools that are letting them take it.

[Metalmicky]

George Galloway vows his party will take Angela Rayner's seat...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68467359

Anyone be happy with this.......?

[Sprotyrover]

George Galloway vows his party will take Angela Rayner's seat...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68467359

Anyone be happy with this.......?

Galloway is the ‘turd’ in Between the cheeks of the Bum!

[tyke1962]

George Galloway vows his party will take Angela Rayner's seat...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68467359

Anyone be happy with this.......?

I suppose Gaza is just about big enough to warrant a couple more MPs to represent them !!!

[danumdon]

They didn't lose many between 97 and 01. 418 to 412.

That is an astonishingly high level of seats for any one election, never mind 2 in a row.

My recollection though is that popularity was already slipping because things didn't change much. The first Blair Govt stuck remorselessly to the tax and spending plans they'd inherited from Major. It wasn't until 2001 that Brown released the reins a bit and we started to see sustained investment in schools, rail and the NHS.

I've never been convinced that Iraq was a defining issue as regards the popularity of Blair's Government. Yes a few stopped supporting Labour on principle, but it was only a few according to polls.



The big drop in support had already happened between 01 and early 03.

My recollection is that there wasn't any huge event that it could be put down to. More a wearing off of the gloss that Blair came in with, and perhaps the first inklings that something had changed. The pie was getting bigger but wages weren't. Brown tried dealing with that by a large set of tax credits, and the result of that WAS more money in more people's pockets. But getting what people see as a handout is not the same as seeing it in your top line wage. Perhaps, I dunno.

But whatever the reason, Blair was a spent force after 05. He was deeply unpopular by then. If you're going to put yourself forward as the Messiah, you'd better deliver, and overall he didn't. There was a big boost in Labour support after Brown took over, but he was torpedoed by the GFC and was never going to win in those economic circumstances.

So Brown by releasing the reigns abit by investing in schools, rail and NHS by creating what will become one of the biggest scandals with the PFI farce.

A great many of these schemes have cost local government a ridiculous amount of money to service.

The buy now and pay massively at a later date will come back to haunt every local council that became subsumed by these "contracts"

[ravenrover]

TC, you make some excellent observations in your two above posts which many people will see and understand to be correct.
Others will try to dissuade you and lecture you on why you are wrong, which is their right of course.
It will be interesting to read what will inevitably follow.
I’m just wondering though why you are talking about 15 years of Tory government when it is actually coming up to 14 years.
I spotted that another poster had said 15 years a day or two ago but I thought it was just to back up his dislike of the Tory’s.

Good point regarding the 15/14 years. I hadnt actually counted but just took it from what another poster said.

Yes I think it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years of Labour rule. I look forward to seing whether they do indeed have the magic wand required to fix our broken economy.

I'm reminded of the rather tasteless letter left by Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury Liam Byrne when the Tories got in back in 2010. He left a note on his desk for his Conservative successor that simply said "I'm afraid there is no money left....signed Liam Byrne." 

 

It was meant as a joke. All outgoing chancellors since Churchill in the 1930's had done it - but in only one case had it been weaponised by the incoming party.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

The National Debt is now two and a half times what is was when he wrote that note - so we now have two and a half times more less money than 2010. If you want to pick-up on that.

I suppose that if we hadn’t heaped all that financial support to the Ukraine over the last two years, or employed the furlough scheme during covid to preserve many UK businesses, that our ND would have been a bit lower.
Shame on the government for doing those things.

.
Not forgetting the billions spaffed up to their cronies during the pandemic or the billions written off, yeah but they did a good job

[SydneyRover]

And all the money the government spent on piss during covid

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

George Galloway vows his party will take Angela Rayner's seat...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-68467359

Anyone be happy with this.......?

Not a chance.  The local labour party there spout plenty of rubbish but its staunch labour territory.

[Sprotyrover]

And all the money the government spent on piss during covid

link to evidence you’re post please?

[SydneyRover]

And all the money the government spent on piss during covid

link to evidence you’re post please?

Shouldn't you be getting ready to go out on your rounds?

[drfchound]

And all the money the government spent on piss during covid

link to evidence you’re post please?

Just something else he has made up sproty.

[SydneyRover]

And all the money the government spent on piss during covid

link to evidence you’re post please?

Just something else he has made up sproty.

I'm amazed you can keep all these petty feuds and spats going all over both boards hilda

This is a compliment before you start off again, it takes a lot of skill

[TommyC]

TC, you make some excellent observations in your two above posts which many people will see and understand to be correct.
Others will try to dissuade you and lecture you on why you are wrong, which is their right of course.
It will be interesting to read what will inevitably follow.
I’m just wondering though why you are talking about 15 years of Tory government when it is actually coming up to 14 years.
I spotted that another poster had said 15 years a day or two ago but I thought it was just to back up his dislike of the Tory’s.

Good point regarding the 15/14 years. I hadnt actually counted but just took it from what another poster said.

Yes I think it will be very interesting to see what happens over the next few years of Labour rule. I look forward to seing whether they do indeed have the magic wand required to fix our broken economy.

I'm reminded of the rather tasteless letter left by Labour Chief Secretary to the Treasury Liam Byrne when the Tories got in back in 2010. He left a note on his desk for his Conservative successor that simply said "I'm afraid there is no money left....signed Liam Byrne." 

 

It was meant as a joke. All outgoing chancellors since Churchill in the 1930's had done it - but in only one case had it been weaponised by the incoming party.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/09/liam-byrne-apology-letter-there-is-no-money-labour-general-election

The National Debt is now two and a half times what is was when he wrote that note - so we now have two and a half times more less money than 2010. If you want to pick-up on that.

Yes I know it was meant as a joke. But do you not think it could be taken as tacit acknowledgement that the incoming Government was inheriting a bit of a sh*tshow?

On the national debt point, yes its true. As I said to Syd in my earlier post, nobody can argue against the hard stats as to how terrible our economic performance has been over the last 14/15 years. My point however is that the financial crash and subsequent recession, a pandemic that shut down the world and latterly a war in Ukraine, have contributed massively to that. It doesn't take much in the way of critical thought to conclude that economic conditions globally (and therefore largely outside of our control) have contributed massively to it. Do you think National Debt wouldn't have doubled if we'd had a Labour Government for the last 14 years? Do you have some stats for what has happened to the National Debt for other countries in the West during that same period? The stats only make sense when looked at in a global context.

Look, I'm not naive enough to think that this isn't how the game is played. Of course the oppositon/incoming Government will use those stats as a massive stick to beat the Tories with. The Tories would do exactly the same. I'm just suggesting that the actual extent to which a national Government could have mitigated these global issues is being over exaggerated by Labour and its supporters.

Personally speaking, the Tories deserve everything they get. I hope they get wiped out. Not because I think they could have done much to address our distrous economic performance, but because they've totally abandoned Conservative policies. They're the other side of the same coin as Labour. Labour will win by a landslide because people like me have abandoned them and won't be bothering to vote for them ever again. Bizarrely (and I await the heckling for this), Liz Truss did actually ask the correct questions regarding the economy, where she went wrong was that she came up with spectacularly wrong answers/solutions.

[drfchound]

And all the money the government spent on piss during covid

link to evidence you’re post please?

Just something else he has made up sproty.

I'm amazed you can keep all these petty feuds and spats going all over both boards hilda

This is a compliment before you start off again, it takes a lot of skill

How have you got the nerve to say that after what you had just posted to sproty about doing his rounds.
Did you have the evidence that he asked for by the way, or was it something you had made up.

[SydneyRover]

And all the money the government spent on piss during covid

link to evidence you’re post please?

iJust something else he has made up sproty.

I'm amazed you can keep all these petty feuds and spats going all over both boards hilda

This is a compliment before you start off again, it takes a lot of skill

How have you got the nerve to say that after what you had just posted to sproty.

It's banter hilda, it's funny. apparently, don't you remember?

[Sprotyrover]

Some idiot who ran away from this country many years ago keeps making disparaging comments about a government that he has no right to criticise , when he or one of his wet lettuce chums paints themselves into a corner he makes multiple irrelevant posts ,how do you counter such childish Trolling from a person who clearly has mental health issues?