Another Flag Issue

[tyke1962]

Can someone please explain to me why the Union Flag would be offensive amongst a certain demographic of the electorate ?

I'm not looking for a fight , I simply would like someone to explain to me what the problem is .

EKeir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/30/starmer-faces-discontent-as-labour-mps-criticise-election-flyers-union-jacks?CMP=share_btn_url

[Bristol Red Rover]

It says one of the main issues in the linked article, why didn't you refer to that? It also mentions other reasons.

So there's the obvious then, and the more recent Labour symbols that are being sidelined in favour of this attempt to play to the "patriotism" shift in focus,  which mirrors the shift in Labour's lurch to the right.

Theres nothing wrong in patriotism in itself, but we know it is often progressively embraced alongside a mentality that is about exclusivity. A slippery slope.

Labour has traditionally been more "internationalist" in its view, in contrast to the Tories. This was about identifying with humanity around the globe,  brothers and sisters at home and overseas. The red rose.

Tories and right wing groups used the flag as a focus on home,  an exclusion of overseas....  except to say we are better than them. A celebration of the empire, or dominance.

You could say Labour is trying to reclaim the flag, and the positives about national identity, unity. A brain washing thing really. It's not Labour's branding. It will confuse. It is reflective of the shift of the party in a very deep and weird way.

[Sprotyrover]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

[Bristol Red Rover]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Right wing fundamentalist drug induced weirdness alert.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Maybe there are groups of people in the country who grew up regularly being abused by far right Kitsons who had appropriated the national flag?

Different people, different experiences.

[Sprotyrover]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Maybe there are groups of people in the country who grew up regularly being abused by far right Kitsons who had appropriated the national flag?

Different people, different experiences.

It hasn’t got a Swastika on it it’s our National flag you Kitson!

[TonySoprano]

Can someone please explain to me why the Union Flag would be offensive amongst a certain demographic of the electorate ?

I'm not looking for a fight , I simply would like someone to explain to me what the problem is .

EKeir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/30/starmer-faces-discontent-as-labour-mps-criticise-election-flyers-union-jacks?CMP=share_btn_url

Comes down to ideology, some people would prefer a hammer and sickle for a flag.
They always complain about our great country, but yet never move to China, Russia, North Korea or Venezuela.
Funny that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Maybe there are groups of people in the country who grew up regularly being abused by far right Kitsons who had appropriated the national flag?

Different people, different experiences.

It hasn’t got a Swaziland on it it’s our National flag you Kitson!

Well THAT seems to have prodded a raw nerve. I'm used to receiving personal abuse on here, but was that REALLY necessary?

[River Don]

The majority of people in the UK probably are patriotic. I remember a mate of mine worked on a lads mag for a while, they always sold more copies if the union jack was on the cover in some form apparently. Because of Brit pop they were able to keep union flags on the cover a lot.

I'd suggest to Labour MPs that union flags on promotional material is probably going to be worth more votes than not.. Making an issue of it is probably the worst thing they could do.

In future perhaps take a leaf out of the UKIP book and display the flag in the colour of the party. Simply drop the blue segments for red. That may upset some but those people probably aren't going to be Labour voters anyway.

[DonnyOsmond]

I received one, usually could tell it's Labour because it's red, I assumed it was Tory to begin with.

[Sprotyrover]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Maybe there are groups of people in the country who grew up regularly being abused by far right Kitsons who had appropriated the national flag?

Different people, different experiences.

It hasn’t got a Swaziland on it it’s our National flag you Kitson!

Well THAT seems to have prodded a raw nerve. I'm used to receiving personal abuse on here, but was that REALLY necessary?

You most certainly did you insulted the National flag, you need to stop looking for fascists under your bed!

[Iberian Red]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Maybe there are groups of people in the country who grew up regularly being abused by far right Kitsons who had appropriated the national flag?

Different people, different experiences.

It hasn’t got a Swaziland on it it’s our National flag you Kitson!

Well THAT seems to have prodded a raw nerve. I'm used to receiving personal abuse on here, but was that REALLY necessary?

You most certainly did you insulted the National flag, you need to stop looking for fascists under your bed!

Oh dear.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Maybe there are groups of people in the country who grew up regularly being abused by far right Kitsons who had appropriated the national flag?

Different people, different experiences.

It hasn’t got a Swaziland on it it’s our National flag you Kitson!

Well THAT seems to have prodded a raw nerve. I'm used to receiving personal abuse on here, but was that REALLY necessary?

You most certainly did you insulted the National flag, you need to stop looking for fascists under your bed!

I didn't say a word of insult about the national flag you idiot. Can't you f**king read?

[Sprotyrover]

Reality check BST the Uk is not mostly populated by Jack booted morons going about the ethnic communities, waving the Xxx Union Jack and shouting “Raus Raus Raus!”

[BillyStubbsTears]

Once again. Are you able to read what I wrote?

[tyke1962]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Maybe there are groups of people in the country who grew up regularly being abused by far right Kitsons who had appropriated the national flag?

Different people, different experiences.

The flag isn't owned by anyone in my opinion Billy and most certainly not seen in the context the Confederate Flag is viewed in the US .

We've all seen the flag used in a positive manner , the swinging 60's , Noel Gallagher and the Spice Girls .

If the Labour Party want to put the Union Flag on all their campaigning material then good on em because in my opinion that represents all of us who live and work here .

If people don't see the flag that way then tough shyte but I most certainly wouldn't be removing it because a minority don't like it for what ever reason .

[wilts rover]

Can someone please explain to me why the Union Flag would be offensive amongst a certain demographic of the electorate ?

I'm not looking for a fight , I simply would like someone to explain to me what the problem is .

EKeir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/30/starmer-faces-discontent-as-labour-mps-criticise-election-flyers-union-jacks?CMP=share_btn_url

Well if you read the article it will tell you.

Although it would be interesting to know if you are on the side of Keir Starmer - who would like the flag on his election literature? Or the left wing activists who dont want to be handing out election literature with a symbol they identify with right-wing political parties on it?

[tyke1962]

Can someone please explain to me why the Union Flag would be offensive amongst a certain demographic of the electorate ?

I'm not looking for a fight , I simply would like someone to explain to me what the problem is .

EKeir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/30/starmer-faces-discontent-as-labour-mps-criticise-election-flyers-union-jacks?CMP=share_btn_url

Well if you read the article it will tell you.

Although it would be interesting to know if you are on the side of Keir Starmer - who would like the flag on his election literature? Or the left wing activists who dont want to be handing out election literature with a symbol they identify with right-wing political parties on it?

I just see it as the Union Flag Wilts and if Starmer wants it on the election material then good for him .

I doesn't make him any better or worse to me .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Maybe there are groups of people in the country who grew up regularly being abused by far right Kitsons who had appropriated the national flag?

Different people, different experiences.

It hasn’t got a Swastika on it it’s our National flag you Kitson!

So because a flag doesn't have a swastika on it the people waving it couldn't possibly be racist bully boys? Jesus, grow up and smell the coffee.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

Maybe there are groups of people in the country who grew up regularly being abused by far right Kitsons who had appropriated the national flag?

Different people, different experiences.

The flag isn't owned by anyone in my opinion Billy and most certainly not seen in the context the Confederate Flag is viewed in the US .

We've all seen the flag used in a positive manner , the swinging 60's , Noel Gallagher and the Spice Girls .

If the Labour Party want to put the Union Flag on all their campaigning material then good on em because in my opinion that represents all of us who live and work here .

If people don't see the flag that way then tough shyte but I most certainly wouldn't be removing it because a minority don't like it for what ever reason .

Tyke.

I'm not sure why you posted that to me, but you're not reading what I wrote, and apparently not reading the link you posted.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I get that "new" states need a flag to rally around.

I get that countries under attack need a flag to rally around.

I'm not sure I understand the need to venerate a flag in the absence of either of those scenarios.

That said, I do get why Starmer's Labour party are embracing the symbolism of the flag. Because under Corbyn, there was a more or less explicit feeling that Britishness was something unpleasant or blameworthy. Much of Starmer's work over the last 4 years has been trying to purge that sense from Labour.

All of THAT said, I am not in a position to understand the emotional response to the Union Jack of people from ethnic minority communities who may have suffered abuse or violence from people claiming the Union Jack as their emblem.

[tyke1962]

I get that "new" states need a flag to rally around.

I get that countries under attack need a flag to rally around.

I'm not sure I understand the need to venerate a flag in the absence of either of those scenarios.

That said, I do get why Starmer's Labour party are embracing the symbolism of the flag. Because under Corbyn, there was a more or less explicit feeling that Britishness was something unpleasant or blameworthy. Much of Starmer's work over the last 4 years has been trying to purge that sense from Labour.

All of THAT said, I am not in a position to understand the emotional response to the Union Jack of people from ethnic minority communities who may have suffered abuse or violence from people claiming the Union Jack as their emblem.

So wouldn't the win win be to show the Union Flag in a more positive way that celebrates what the country has given the world and continues to do so ? .

If you remove it aren't you handing it to the people you've mentioned ?

Or , does this go deeper than that ?

[wilts rover]

Can someone please explain to me why the Union Flag would be offensive amongst a certain demographic of the electorate ?

I'm not looking for a fight , I simply would like someone to explain to me what the problem is .

EKeir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/30/starmer-faces-discontent-as-labour-mps-criticise-election-flyers-union-jacks?CMP=share_btn_url

Well if you read the article it will tell you.

Although it would be interesting to know if you are on the side of Keir Starmer - who would like the flag on his election literature? Or the left wing activists who dont want to be handing out election literature with a symbol they identify with right-wing political parties on it?

I just see it as the Union Flag Wilts and if Starmer wants it on the election material then good for him .

I doesn't make him any better or worse to me .

It doesn't Tyke.

But as far as I am aware the Union Flag has never been displayed prominently (if at all) on Labour Party election literature for any election in it's 100+ year history until now.

Some people see this as part of the right-wing shift that Starmer has brought to Labour since he has been in charge. So it's always interesting to see who does and doesn't agree with him. And what it says about their politics.

[Iberian Red]

Can someone please explain to me why the Union Flag would be offensive amongst a certain demographic of the electorate ?

I'm not looking for a fight , I simply would like someone to explain to me what the problem is .

EKeir Starmer faces discontent as Labour MPs reject union jack election flyers https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/mar/30/starmer-faces-discontent-as-labour-mps-criticise-election-flyers-union-jacks?CMP=share_btn_url

Did you read above the headline?
Obviously not as it was explained just below.

[SydneyRover]

Maybe there are large groups who don’t like living in Britain in which case they should take a Sydders example and leave the country for a better place!

As I said, I decided to take a long holiday when gimp suits started to become popular spraty.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

People seeing that as a right wing shift in Labour politics are, I suspect, actively looking for a stick to beat Starmer with.

Anyone who canvassed for Labour in 2019 will know how often the response was "But Corbyn hates Britain". That needed neutralising. Labour doesn't hate Britain. It's stupid to even imagine they do. But unfortunately, Corbyn gave a feeling of doing so.

As regards past use of the flag, post WWII, there was precious little of it by either Labour or Tories in election literature until very recently.

It was pretty much taken as read that, whatever you thought of the opponents' policies, they were supporting Britain.

The Tories started using the flag when they lurched towards being a populist nationalist party.

Labour has the option of not following suit, but then risks the same anti-British stench that surrounded Corbyn.

But then, yes, that's easy for me to say when I've never been abused or threatened by a toxic sub-culture justifying its action by claiming the flag.

[River Don]

The Tory torch logo of the Thatcher era very clearly referenced the union jack. It was odd when Cameron  junked that in favour of a green tree logo...

It wasn't too long before they superimposed a union jack on the tree making a complete dogs breakfast of the design. But it was more important to include the union jack than worry about aesthetics.

I can't help but feel the current Tory logo (the squiggly tree rendered in pale blue) doesn't really suit them as they are now. They should go back to the torch maybe include an eagle.. or a skull.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD.

Yep, that one did. But there weren't many compared to the abundance of uses of the flag on more recent Tory images.

I've been saying for years. The modern Tory party has absolutely zero to offer but Culture War. This is one front in that war. The unspoken message is "We are patriots, the other lot aren't." Labour's problem was that Corbyn made that line easy for them to push.

[River Don]

It boils down to this, over their entire time in government, and it is a longtime now, what has actually improved?

Nothing much that I can see, other than the wealth of the richest. That's improved.

[SydneyRover]

There's another thread starter, what are the tangible benefits of tories to the majority since 2010?