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According to reports Labour are wanting only a 1 to 1 debate with the Tories and to not include SNP, independents, Greens, Lib Dems etc.Makes you wonder why?
Quote from: roverstillidie91 on May 25, 2024, 07:18:12 amAccording to reports Labour are wanting only a 1 to 1 debate with the Tories and to not include SNP, independents, Greens, Lib Dems etc.Makes you wonder why?During the last General Election campaign Boris Johnson didn’t want any leadership debates
I have to agree with Starmer on this one. If we had PR, as we all know we should, then all of the above parties' views and proposals would be relevant.As it is, with our ridiculous voting system, each GE just becomes a two horse race, so it's pointless cluttering the debate with any other than the two main parties.
Why is it then that we don’t change to PR?Is it that the two big Party’s don’t want to open the door to the others.
Quote from: scawsby steve on May 25, 2024, 08:37:58 pmI have to agree with Starmer on this one. If we had PR, as we all know we should, then all of the above parties' views and proposals would be relevant.As it is, with our ridiculous voting system, each GE just becomes a two horse race, so it's pointless cluttering the debate with any other than the two main parties.Surprised you're putting a case for currently maintaining the establishment status quo. Whatever you want.By the way, Bristol West... tho I think they changed the name... is very likely to go Green from Labour. Only hosting debates between the two right wing establishment parties is as undemocratic as it gets. That's Starmer for you.
Quote from: drfchound on May 25, 2024, 08:40:15 pmWhy is it then that we don’t change to PR?Is it that the two big Party’s don’t want to open the door to the others.Because when we had the opportunity to do so, we voted not to. Democracy's a bugger int'it?
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on May 25, 2024, 11:13:17 pmQuote from: drfchound on May 25, 2024, 08:40:15 pmWhy is it then that we don’t change to PR?Is it that the two big Party’s don’t want to open the door to the others.Because when we had the opportunity to do so, we voted not to. Democracy's a bugger int'it?Is there any wonder that happened?It was Clegg's policy. He led the campaign in the proportional representation referendum.And by the time it came, 7 months after the 2010 GE, his shower had fallen to about 8% in the polls and he was the most hated politician in the country, because he'd signed up lock, stock and barrel to the Tories' Austerity plans.
Quote from: drfchound on May 25, 2024, 08:40:15 pmWhy is it then that we don’t change to PR?Is it that the two big Party’s don’t want to open the door to the others.Because when we had the opportunity to do so, we voted not to. Democracy's a bugger int'it?
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on May 26, 2024, 12:33:56 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on May 25, 2024, 11:13:17 pmQuote from: drfchound on May 25, 2024, 08:40:15 pmWhy is it then that we don’t change to PR?Is it that the two big Party’s don’t want to open the door to the others.Because when we had the opportunity to do so, we voted not to. Democracy's a bugger int'it?Is there any wonder that happened?It was Clegg's policy. He led the campaign in the proportional representation referendum.And by the time it came, 7 months after the 2010 GE, his shower had fallen to about 8% in the polls and he was the most hated politician in the country, because he'd signed up lock, stock and barrel to the Tories' Austerity plans.So I’m guessing then that after Labour win the GE that they won’t be proposing a PR vote anytime soon.Like I said earlier, the big two don’t want it.
Quote from: drfchound on May 26, 2024, 09:38:15 amQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on May 26, 2024, 12:33:56 amQuote from: Glyn_Wigley on May 25, 2024, 11:13:17 pmQuote from: drfchound on May 25, 2024, 08:40:15 pmWhy is it then that we don’t change to PR?Is it that the two big Party’s don’t want to open the door to the others.Because when we had the opportunity to do so, we voted not to. Democracy's a bugger int'it?Is there any wonder that happened?It was Clegg's policy. He led the campaign in the proportional representation referendum.And by the time it came, 7 months after the 2010 GE, his shower had fallen to about 8% in the polls and he was the most hated politician in the country, because he'd signed up lock, stock and barrel to the Tories' Austerity plans.So I’m guessing then that after Labour win the GE that they won’t be proposing a PR vote anytime soon.Like I said earlier, the big two don’t want it.Regardless of forms the next government, the winners never mention or consider moving to this more democratic model. Its only ever been parties in opposition or who have no hope of ever achieving who discuss this.We need to learn from continental Europe in this instance. I'm quite sure that with PR we would increase the overall number of people who participate in elections, ensuring we don't have periods of overall dominance by individual parties that then force through legislation that's unwanted by the majority and by its very nature is short term thinking that then gets jettisoned when the next election throws up a different flavour of government.PR would rein in the excess of left and right leaning administrations, force parties to work together and enable longer term planning that would not be abandoned every election cycle.The issue we have is no mainstream political party have the vision or boll**ks to ever implement this. Its always been a case or party first before country, for all of them. They don't have the countries best interests at heart, only their own.
We didn't have a referendum on Proportional Representation at all.We had a referendum on swapping electing constituency MPs from First Past the Post to something called the Altenative Vote.The Alternative Vote would have ensured that the winning candidate in a constituency has at least some kind of majority support, but has nothing to do with proportional representation on a country-wide level.
Quote from: Branton Red on May 26, 2024, 07:17:00 pmWe didn't have a referendum on Proportional Representation at all.We had a referendum on swapping electing constituency MPs from First Past the Post to something called the Altenative Vote.The Alternative Vote would have ensured that the winning candidate in a constituency has at least some kind of majority support, but has nothing to do with proportional representation on a country-wide level.It was an opportunity to ditch First Past The Post. The electorate decided to keep it.
Electing local national representatives, like now, does have great value for localities, but it doesn't work nationally. Times have changed whereby we are all much more nationally engaged than in previous times. Maybe a better system that gives more power to localities is needed alongside a real PR nationally.Thinking just on the national level, I think the aim should be for votes for parties and seats dealt out proportionally. Simple. There could be a more local vote alongside this on named individuals that would be put forward for allocation who would then be plugged into localities. Complex.What isn't okay is for parties to simply choose individuals, though actually that is what happens already in many cases. Labour have increasingly been doing this, Tories have always tended to do it.With the local council elections, more power could be given to them in engaging with national issues.It's difficult, though necessary and doable. The transferred vote thing is a fudge, as is lumping together several seats like in the Euro elections.