Faith Schools

[Mike_F]

A topic that I've not seen any party addressing in their manifesto but one that I'd like to see reformed significantly is Faith Schools. I'd be interested to hear other people's views on this.

I think that schools who have a vested interest in teaching a particular belief system as fact or as a preferential ideology to others do significantly more harm than good in driving division in society and I'd like to see them abolished.

There should IMHO be a uniform RE syllabus that is taught across all schools which teaches pupils that there are things called religions that some people follow then explain a bit about the core structures of the major religions so that children can grow up understanding and acknowledging some of the things that to varying degrees influence people's lifestyles and decision making but the emphasis should be on people being able to make the choice as to which religion (if any) they feel best suits them when they reach an age at which they can make an informed decision.

[i_ateallthepies]

100% with that, Mike.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think the problem is the schools isn't it?  My kids go to a C of E school and there's no real issue with that.  They teach all sorts of religion in the school aswell as they see it important that there's an understanding and respect of all religions.  The school also accepts non C of E students.

The problem is not all schools are like that and they should as you say be teaching similar things.

[Mike_F]

Exactly, BFYP. (as an aside, it turns out the breakfast club you mentioned isn't the one my oldest went to; he was at the bigger school round the corner).

Some denominational schools are fairly light-touch but others are very didactic and therein lies the problem.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Exactly, BFYP. (as an aside, it turns out the breakfast club you mentioned isn't the one my oldest went to; he was at the bigger school round the corner).

Some denominational schools are fairly light-touch but others are very didactic and therein lies the problem.

Ah makes sense.  I was also wrong on the breakfast club price from next year £6.25 per person, crazy.  The company I worked for in the past used to charge £1.50.....

[Herbert Anchovy]

It's an interesting argument and not one that I've given a great deal of thought about to be honest. A counter point to your argument could be that your view is based around your own belief (or lack of) any religion? In other words, you think faith schools should be reined in, because you don't believe? However, to those who do run these schools, the existence and teachings of religion are based on the belief that it is fact?

I'm not saying that this is my view in particular, and I do have a bit of sympathy with your opinion, but it's an interesting debate.

For the record though, there's 2 faith schools quite close to me (Catholic and Islam) and both seem to be excellent from what I can gather.

[SydneyRover]

Exactly, BFYP. (as an aside, it turns out the breakfast club you mentioned isn't the one my oldest went to; he was at the bigger school round the corner).

Some denominational schools are fairly light-touch but others are very didactic and therein lies the problem.

Ah makes sense.  I was also wrong on the breakfast club price from next year £6.25 per person, crazy.  The company I worked for in the past used to charge £1.50.....

Is 'care ' time included in that or is just a slice of toast?

[ravenrover]

Does a CofE school class as faith school?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Exactly, BFYP. (as an aside, it turns out the breakfast club you mentioned isn't the one my oldest went to; he was at the bigger school round the corner).

Some denominational schools are fairly light-touch but others are very didactic and therein lies the problem.

Ah makes sense.  I was also wrong on the breakfast club price from next year £6.25 per person, crazy.  The company I worked for in the past used to charge £1.50.....

Is 'care ' time included in that or is just a slice of toast?

It is a bit of both, it was £2.50 which seat fair but they've ramped up the price, but yes the food is just toast.

Does a CofE school class as faith school?

Well, it is a faith....

[SydneyRover]

How much baby sitting does one get for ₡6.50 these days?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

A lot more than that.  For reference some schools round here charge 50p a day and like I said, the private company I worked for charged 1.50 and made a very healthy margin on that.

[SydneyRover]

A lot more than that.  For reference some schools round here charge 50p a day and like I said, the private company I worked for charged 1.50 and made a very healthy margin on that.

It would be easier to just answer exactly what you were offered for your money instead of hedging around it pud.

edited

[Mike_F]

It's an interesting argument and not one that I've given a great deal of thought about to be honest. A counter point to your argument could be that your view is based around your own belief (or lack of) any religion? In other words, you think faith schools should be reined in, because you don't believe? However, to those who do run these schools, the existence and teachings of religion are based on the belief that it is fact?

I'm not saying that this is my view in particular, and I do have a bit of sympathy with your opinion, but it's an interesting debate.

For the record though, there's 2 faith schools quite close to me (Catholic and Islam) and both seem to be excellent from what I can gather.

I'm an atheist but I absolutely believe that the right to choose to practice any religion or none at all is a fundamental pillar of our society. What I don't agree with is children being indoctrinated intro specific faiths through their schools which should focus on a balanced and consistent education rather than promoting specific views or ideologies on deities.

The fact that two good schools near you are faith-based is part of the problem. Why should parents have to expose their children to specific religions in order to get them into better schools? I know several people who are not at all religious but had their kids baptised as catholics because of the two primary schools in their area, the catholic faith school delivers stronger results than the non-denominational state school. It's a farce that shouldn't exist in 2024.

[Herbert Anchovy]

It's an interesting argument and not one that I've given a great deal of thought about to be honest. A counter point to your argument could be that your view is based around your own belief (or lack of) any religion? In other words, you think faith schools should be reined in, because you don't believe? However, to those who do run these schools, the existence and teachings of religion are based on the belief that it is fact?

I'm not saying that this is my view in particular, and I do have a bit of sympathy with your opinion, but it's an interesting debate.

For the record though, there's 2 faith schools quite close to me (Catholic and Islam) and both seem to be excellent from what I can gather.

I'm an atheist but I absolutely believe that the right to choose to practice any religion or none at all is a fundamental pillar of our society. What I don't agree with is children being indoctrinated intro specific faiths through their schools which should focus on a balanced and consistent education rather than promoting specific views or ideologies on deities.

The fact that two good schools near you are faith-based is part of the problem. Why should parents have to expose their children to specific religions in order to get them into better schools? I know several people who are not at all religious but had their kids baptised as catholics because of the two primary schools in their area, the catholic faith school delivers stronger results than the non-denominational state school. It's a farce that shouldn't exist in 2024.

Understood, but that’s not the fault of the faith schools is it? As far as they’re concerned, they are dealing in fact when it comes to religion. If parents don’t want their kids taught something they don’t personally believe then they shouldn’t send their kids there! What should happen is the non-denominational schools improve their standards.

[Mike_F]

Yes they believe that and people are free to believe whatever they like but regardless of how strongly the teachers may hold their beliefs they shouldn't be teaching them as facts which can lead to a perpetuation of the division between different religious groups.

I have no issue with them saying in the RE lessons "Some people believe that this guy called Jesus was the son of a god and as it happens I'm one of them but others believe that another bloke called Mohammed was actually the main man. There are some people who think that different elements are controlled by different gods like Ra the Sun god or Hades, the god of the underworld. You can see the way that these different beliefs have shaped societies around the world.

[i_ateallthepies]

It should also be required that atheism and agnosticism be included in the teaching otherwise to simply teach only variants of God belief might be taken to suggest that these are your options, kids, choose which one seems most plausible to you.

[Bristol Red Rover]

It's a complex issue, and simplifying what I think, I agree that it's almost inevitable that a faith school will bring in some level of division even if subtle. All the positives of a faith school can be put in the form of a non faith format.

Especially in our strong multi faith society I think the argument for a faith school isn't a good one. I do however think that teaching the subject of faith in schools is an essential with the proviso that atheism, agnosticism, plus every other aspect of belief is taught. That would include paganism etc, "science belief" (including eg materialism, panpsychism), the politics of belief, the use of religion in politics, and even politics itself like marxism, Nazi-ism, mafia, "democracy", capitalism, neo liberalism. I think other culture beliefs like gangsterism, "celebrity culture", punk, hippies, skinheads etc etc are part of this same topic. The classic beliefs of the Greek and other philosophers too.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

A lot more than that.  For reference some schools round here charge 50p a day and like I said, the private company I worked for charged 1.50 and made a very healthy margin on that.

It would be easier to just answer exactly what you were offered for your money instead of hedging around it pud.

edited

I did answer the question, the kids go in to a hall, sit and eat toast and do a bit of colouring, not a lot to it.

What do you think it should cost?

[SydneyRover]

A lot more than that.  For reference some schools round here charge 50p a day and like I said, the private company I worked for charged 1.50 and made a very healthy margin on that.

It would be easier to just answer exactly what you were offered for your money instead of hedging around it pud.

edited

I did answer the question, the kids go in to a hall, sit and eat toast and do a bit of colouring, not a lot to it.

What do you think it should cost?

That depends on how long they are having paid supervision which again you haven't said.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

45 minutes. Would you agree with this being free or should it always be paid?

[SydneyRover]

45 minutes. Would you agree with this being free or should it always be paid?

₤6.50 for 45minutes of supervision and dry toast while you can go and earn money, and you're complaining pud?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Ses again Sydney you are picking rhe argument with me because you don't like me as a poster.

It makes very little difference to me as I just go to work after school starts, I'm salaried not paid by the hour.  But to someone on hourly pay perhaps minimum wage that's a lot of money to spend, probably more than they actually earn and that's a problem for them.  So instead of your little digs at forum posters think about the issue.

The good news for those people is that Labour will win the election and their policy is not that these clubs should be cheap but actually they will be free to all kids, because like the tories on nursery care they've seen it's an issue for low paid families.

[SydneyRover]

Ses again Sydney you are picking rhe argument with me because you don't like me as a poster.

It makes very little difference to me as I just go to work after school starts, I'm salaried not paid by the hour.  But to someone on hourly pay perhaps minimum wage that's a lot of money to spend, probably more than they actually earn and that's a problem for them.  So instead of your little digs at forum posters think about the issue.

The good news for those people is that Labour will win the election and their policy is not that these clubs should be cheap but actually they will be free to all kids, because like the tories on nursery care they've seen it's an issue for low paid families.

This is not at all true pud, I keep saying everyone is entitled to be heard and to be questioned. I just find it amusing that for a person that works in a field where it must be very close to 100% dealing in facts (and finance) you don't appear to do it on the forum, only my opinion and not that you have to of course.

I didn't think of the wider issue to be honest and you did say or imply (I think) that it was the cost that stopped you taking it up, but still I just thought you may have had the detail in your head, not to worry.

Thanks for your reply, I will take what you have said on board.

[Mike_F]

Some heartening debate here - BRR with whom I completely disagree on the Ukraine issue but has made some very snesible posts here. Syd acknowledging an oversight in thinking and taking Pud's points on board. So much better than the usual playground name-calling bullshit we seem to attract on the Off Topic board. That's more like it.