Ev drivers to pay daily £15 congestion charge in London from Dec 2025.

[normal rules]

That’s going to help ev sales.

[danumdon]

Just the pre-cursor to introducing pay per mile charging.

That's if they have any ULEZ cameras still standing.

[albie]

I hope you are right about pay per mile, dd.
It would be a big improvement on current road taxation.

Latest figures for those who like the data;
https://nitter.poast.org/DrSimEvans/status/1808789408830681193#m

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pay per mile has to come in eventually. The alternative is:

1) Congestion will make roads unusable
2) Taxes would have to be raised elsewhere, or spending on core things cut.

This is an excellent explainer.

https://x.com/MichaelDnes1/status/1809853434465591770

[selby]

  Everybody already pays duty per mile when they pay fuel duty at the pumps and road tax.
  It will just add more cost per mile, at the moment my costs are about 12p to 14p per mile plus road tax at £130  in an add blue diesel car and always use Jet ultra premium fuel.
   

[normal rules]

Ev drivers soon to pay a flat rate of £180 ved too.
I’ll stick with my Vw Up for now . £20 a year.

[BillyStubbsTears]

  Everybody already pays duty per mile when they pay fuel duty at the pumps and road tax.
  It will just add more cost per mile, at the moment my costs are about 12p to 14p per mile plus road tax at £130  in an add blue diesel car and always use Jet ultra premium fuel.
   

Read the link I just posted.

[danumdon]

I hope you are right about pay per mile, dd.
It would be a big improvement on current road taxation.

Latest figures for those who like the data;
https://nitter.poast.org/DrSimEvans/status/1808789408830681193#m

I'm just wondering how much of the increase in cars with a plug are down to company's car policy's changing to fit in with this policy, our company are pushing this policy big style to the extent that even us with PHEV vehicles are having to change to full EV.

How many private sales are actually EV's ?

[danumdon]

Pay per mile has to come in eventually. The alternative is:

1) Congestion will make roads unusable
2) Taxes would have to be raised elsewhere, or spending on core things cut.

This is an excellent explainer.

https://x.com/MichaelDnes1/status/1809853434465591770

I agree that a more progressive solution needs to be implemented in the major urban conurbations but would it be fair to also use the same policy in areas outside?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pay per mile has to come in eventually. The alternative is:

1) Congestion will make roads unusable
2) Taxes would have to be raised elsewhere, or spending on core things cut.

This is an excellent explainer.

https://x.com/MichaelDnes1/status/1809853434465591770

I agree that a more progressive solution needs to be implemented in the major urban conurbations but would it be fair to also use the same policy in areas outside?

Read that twitter thread.

The point is that effectively we already have road pricing through applying very high rates of tax to petrol.

The more you drive, the more you pay. So that a) provides tax funding for things like hospitals and pensions and b) acts as a discouragement against too much driving.

If everyone drove electric vehicles, it's impossible to tax the fuel without taxing other uses of electricity. And if you lose the petrol tax then a) you've got to tax something else or close hospitals/reduce pensions and b) there will be a LOT more driving because it would be cheap, therefore the roads would be unusable through congestion.

So, as we move towards full usage of EVs, road pricing becomes inevitable. But if you impose it on ICE cars now, they pay double tax (fuel tax AND road pricing). And because wealthier people can more easily afford EVs, it will be the poor who are left with ICEs and paying exorbitant tax.

Read that thread to see the clever solution. I suspect this Govt will introduce that idea. And the Right will scream about it.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Actually bst you could tax vehicles on their electric usage. The new vehicles can link with energy providers and be tracked that way.  Mine is with octopus and they decide exactly when to charge the car and at the same time give a cheap rate.  That could easily be aligned with taxation in time as they have that data.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually bst you could tax vehicles on their electric usage. The new vehicles can link with energy providers and be tracked that way.  Mine is with octopus and they decide exactly when to charge the car and at the same time give a cheap rate.  That could easily be aligned with taxation in time as they have that data.

Effectively it's the same thing.

Almost.

But using location data has a bonus. You can tier charges depending on whether drivers use busy roads or not. That would incentivise drivers and companies to avoid the congestion hot spots.

In principle it would be like the way flights and trains are more expensive at peak times and on popular routes.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It would but imagine the problems that also causes in the economy.  Nurses not picking shifts because it costs to drive in. Inflation in wages as rush hour travel costs spiral. It's not a simple or particularly strong idea.  Take Doncaster for example, what's the alternative to driving through town for crossing Doncaster?

Reducing non essential travel is a better idea.

[SydneyRover]

15 or even 10 minute cities combined with good cheap public transport can solve road congestion.

The tax system is something that needs a lot of work.

[BillyStubbsTears]

It would but imagine the problems that also causes in the economy.  Nurses not picking shifts because it costs to drive in. Inflation in wages as rush hour travel costs spiral. It's not a simple or particularly strong idea.  Take Doncaster for example, what's the alternative to driving through town for crossing Doncaster?

Reducing non essential travel is a better idea.

I agree that reducing unnecessary travel is important.

The problem is with allowing unfettered travel is that everyone loses through hours spent in congestion. That's why big cities all over he world are bringing in congestion charges and will have to keep them when everyone has EVs.

There's no easy answer I'll admit. It would be better if course if we had functional public transport but we've made spectacularly bad political choices on that ever since Thatcher decided it wasn't the way forward. That'll be a 50 year job to put right.

[SydneyRover]

Thatcher privatised bus services 1986 and ever since there has been a mishmash of regulations that has not helped. Many bus routes have been cancelled since 2008 and in 2017 councils were stopped from setting up bus companies, not that it would be easy to find the funding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_deregulation_in_Great_Britain#:~:text=It%20began%20in%201980%20with,those%20powers%20to%20bus%20operators.

gleaned from wiki

[Sprotyrover]

I Have Just re registert my car, it’s now down to Silly Syd,no 4 Prudential Chambers Silver Street,
Doncaster! Along with 168 others!

[SydneyRover]

I Have Just re registers my car, it’s now down to Silly Syd,no 4 Prudential Chambers Silver Street,
Doncaster! Along with 168 others!

CLH can you get this one please

[drfchound]

Thatcher privatised bus services 1986 and ever since there has been a mishmash of regulations that has not helped. Many bus routes have been cancelled since 2008 and in 2017 councils were stopped from setting up bus companies, not that it would be easy to find the funding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_deregulation_in_Great_Britain#:~:text=It%20began%20in%201980%20with,those%20powers%20to%20bus%20operators.

gleaned from wiki

Syd, what did Labour do between 1997 and 2010 to improve the bus services.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Thatcher privatised bus services 1986 and ever since there has been a mishmash of regulations that has not helped. Many bus routes have been cancelled since 2008 and in 2017 councils were stopped from setting up bus companies, not that it would be easy to find the funding.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bus_deregulation_in_Great_Britain#:~:text=It%20began%20in%201980%20with,those%20powers%20to%20bus%20operators.

gleaned from wiki

Bus usage is down massively post covid, people do not want to use buses and with more working from home funding them is very difficult.  Bus companies wouldn't axe routes if people used them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Chicken and egg.

Bus services have become expensive, patchy and unreliable. Sort that out and people would use them.

[SydneyRover]

Chicken and egg.

Bus services have become expensive, patchy and unreliable. Sort that out and people would use them.

beat me to it bst.

''Doncaster
Bus services frequency (trips per hour) 2010   241.2
Bus services frequency (trips per hour) 2023   148.5
Change in service frequency 2010 - 2023   -38.4%''

https://policy.friendsoftheearth.uk/insight/how-britains-bus-services-have-drastically-declined

Build more/improve roads people will drive more, simple as that, it's called induced demand.

Many people assume that building more roads will miraculously clear up traffic jams, but the reality is the opposite. The reason why building more roads doesn’t reduce traffic congestion is due to the phenomenon of Induced Demand. It’s driven by a simple principle: people don’t want to be stuck in traffic.

https://www.goget.com.au/blog/do-new-roads-reduce-traffic-congestion#:~:text=Do%20more%20roads%20lead%20to,the%20phenomenon%20of%20Induced%20Demand.

There's some PT figures here showing bus/train usage before and after covid, it's definitely down and varies between about 10-15-20%

https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/transport-use-during-the-coronavirus-covid-19-pandemic/domestic-transport-usage-by-mode

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've said times many, when I first moved to Sheffield 30 years ago, there were 13 buses an hour from the end of our road to the city centre a couple of miles away.

You didn't need to check the timetable - just turn up at the stop and one would come within 10 mins. The buses were packed at rush hour.

Today there are four an hour. Frequently they don't turn up and you could be waiting 30-40 minutes. Even in rush hour they are half empty, because people don't use a service they can't rely on.

[ravenrover]

We used to have a twice a day service through our village to Nottingham 2 morning 2 afternoon.
Both at peak travel time for working people. Rammed  every day. What did the silly sods do...... cancelled them.
The nearest bus stop for half the village is now a 20-25mins walk uphill. Those buses increased to every 10mins why ?who knows most ran almost
Empty. Since Covid these buses have gone to one might come if you are lucky in the next 20mins! There is supposed to be a real time interval timer for the bus often it is shown as 10mins away then disappears
Then they wonder why people aren't using them

[BillyStubbsTears]

Because of the topology of Sheffield, with lots of valleys meeting at the city centre, everything is focussed on the city centre. So from Walkley for example, 99% of travellers want to go to the city centre.

We used to have busses that shuttled from the terminus at Walkley to the city centre. Quick. Frequent. Reasonably reliable. Heavily used.

Then First Bus decided it would be a really good idea if these busses went on from the city centre to Firth Park and Meadowhall. No-one gets the bus from Walkley to Meadowhall. It takes about 90 minutes each way. So they are not providing an enhanced service by having a single route of that distance.

But the big effect of course is that this massively increases the possibility of any bus getting caught in congestion in different parts of town. Because every bus is literally going from one end of the city to the other. So if there is a knot of traffic anywhere on the route, the bus cops for it and gets delayed. Which is why at rush hour, you're in the lap of the Gods as to whether there'll be 3 busses in 5 mins or none for an hour.

It would be a far more robust service if they ran one line from Walkley to the city centre and and second one from the city centre to Meadowhall. I'm assuming that costs more for the bus provider.

And there's the problem. If you run busses as a business to make a profit, you run it in a way that doesn't actually work as a service to society as a whole.