Mansfield or Leyton Orient…

[GazLaz]

Plenty of talk on here about experience. Interesting that two teams promoted from L2 in recent years Mansfield and Orient have opted for different approaches to squad building.

Mansfield average age is 30yo and the more they have struggled the more they have doubled down on bringing in experienced short term options… and their results have got worse.

Orient average squad age is 25.5. They’ve recruited hungry, energetic young players that are aided by young, energetic young loan players… and they are in the playoffs.

Mansfield are paying wages to a keeper that is 38, strikers who are 36, 36, 35 and 34. Defenders who are 34 & 35 and a midfielder that is 39. And there is Bowery who’s 33 that can play anywhere!

Aidan Flint, Stephen Quinn, Lee Gregory, Jordan Rhodes…

They are paying a fortune for these players and plummeting towards relegation like a stone.

If there is ever a case study of how hot to approach the summer it’s Mansfield. 

[andyst79]

Seems we missed a trick not backing Wellens with a decent transfer budget

[IDM]

If Orient’s average age is 25.5, that still implies there’s a few players older..

I think we need a mix.  Many players are still great in their early thirties, and some would also qualify as “experienced” at 23/24..

It doesn’t matter so much for a goalie, and maybe for one of the CB’s where pace isn’t an issue provided the partner is quick.

An older forward/striker knows all the tricks too, as does a midfield director.

So for me, that’s 4 players in the squad, not necessarily starting, where it’s fine to be near the end of their careers.

Ideally we’d have a team full of 23/24 year olds with 5/6 years experience at our level, but who are still “young” quick and hungry..

It all depends on the players.  Guile and know how, speed of thought, knowledge of where players will be (including the opposition), come with experience.

I’d let Wood go - maybe stay as a coach?  Anderson can be the experienced CB if not first choice assuming we have Jay and Joe.

Sharp is a luxury - if we can afford to keep him he’s still capable of 10+ goals a season, but again, not as our main first choice perhaps?

If McCann can unearth another set of players like Wilkes and Kane etc, next season could be quite exciting..

[DonnyOsmond]

Stockport similar case to Leyton Orient

[Bessie Red]

Plenty of talk on here about experience. Interesting that two teams promoted from L2 in recent years Mansfield and Orient have opted for different approaches to squad building.

Mansfield average age is 30yo and the more they have struggled the more they have doubled down on bringing in experienced short term options… and their results have got worse.

Orient average squad age is 25.5. They’ve recruited hungry, energetic young players that are aided by young, energetic young loan players… and they are in the playoffs.

Mansfield are paying wages to a keeper that is 38, strikers who are 36, 36, 35 and 34. Defenders who are 34 & 35 and a midfielder that is 39. And there is Bowery who’s 33 that can play anywhere!

Aidan Flint, Stephen Quinn, Lee Gregory, Jordan Rhodes…

They are paying a fortune for these players and plummeting towards relegation like a stone.

If there is ever a case study of how hot to approach the summer it’s Mansfield. 

Omar Beckles (33) & Darren Pratley (39) are the 2 old heads at Leyton Orient

[ncRover]

I agree that the Mansfield approach is bad, but Peterbrough went for solely youth and have underperformed incredibly.

Ferguson said it was the mentally weakest group of players he’d managed or something?

Average age 22.7 and a big budget for the level.

I agree with IDM, you need a mix.

[Chris Black come back]

I agree that the Mansfield approach is bad, but Peterbrough went for solely youth and have underperformed incredibly.

Ferguson said it was the mentally weakest group of players he’d managed or something?

If he did then he's forgetting his 2015 /16 relegation season!

[dickos1]

I think a big factor also is that orient are in their second season in there whereas it’s Mansfield first.
Orient struggled in their first season too only
Getting 7 points more than what Mansfield currently have with 3 games to go.
So both had similar first season in league 1

[GazLaz]

I think a big factor also is that orient are in their second season in there whereas it’s Mansfield first.
Orient struggled in their first season too only
Getting 7 points more than what Mansfield currently have with 3 games to go.
So both had similar first season in league 1

That’s the point though, there was a chance to still progress for Orient. They had a developing team. Mansfield unlikely to improve next season if the squad/ recruitment plan stays the same.

Clubs like us can only develop into top end L1/Championship clubs. We can’t do it by recruiting “ready made” or people that have been there and done it. We need to sign players that are likely to have their best years here. That how we largely did it before.

[dickos1]

Orient signed around 14 players after that first season though with 7 on loan. So maybe they realised last season didn’t work so changed tact this year.
Mansfield may do the same

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I think a big factor also is that orient are in their second season in there whereas it’s Mansfield first.
Orient struggled in their first season too only
Getting 7 points more than what Mansfield currently have with 3 games to go.
So both had similar first season in league 1

That’s the point though, there was a chance to still progress for Orient. They had a developing team. Mansfield unlikely to improve next season if the squad/ recruitment plan stays the same.

Clubs like us can only develop into top end L1/Championship clubs. We can’t do it by recruiting “ready made” or people that have been there and done it. We need to sign players that are likely to have their best years here. That how we largely did it before.

If we look at the core of our squad we probably are doing that with a few experienced heads thrown in. I imagine it's also why Hurst was extended with the hope he'd develop onwards, but his loan doesn't appear to have gone that well.

I'm sure McCann will want both young and older players in the summer.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I often think on the back of a promotion, you would be casting your net over good players that may have been left behind from teams who missed out on promotion, particularly if they're out of contract. I'm sure we've seen opposition players who could make the step up.

As with any good team, we need a strong spine. Centre forward, centre mid, centre half's. That's where you look for that extra bit of quality.

We're fine on the right side with Sterry and Moly but we're not as strong on the left. Of course the centre forward/striker positions need attention with Ironside and Sharp struggling to hang on with time not on their side and of course Street not being ours.

The no 10 role at the tip of midfield is one we need more quality than quanity with Clifton and Sbarra unlikely to be able to step up and hold that position. Broadbent and Bailey can make the transition but back up and competition in the engine room maybe required.

Centre half obviously depends on any movement from Olowu and whether McGrath, Faulkner can fulfil as natural successors. Suspect Wood finished but I'd keep Anderson as insurance.

We can see where money needs to be invested but how GM chooses to fill them depends on his broad knowledge of players and what funds are available on top of the extra money from EFL and the freeing up of waves from current personnel.

[Petche]

If McCann can unearth another set of players like Wilkes and Kane etc, next season could be quite exciting..
[/quote]

Anyone see Wilks' two goals for Rotherham the other day? Absolutely stunning efforts!

[IDM]

I did, and they were..

[GazLaz]

Orient signed around 14 players after that first season though with 7 on loan. So maybe they realised last season didn’t work so changed tact this year.
Mansfield may do the same

It’s more about what the clubs ethos should be. For me everything should revolve around development. It should be the first thought in everyone’s mind when making every decision. If you think having a couple of experienced players in the team can help the dressing room and assist this development, then fine, do it.

I’m also not saying we are not doing it currently quite well. JM, Olowu, Bailey, Mols, Maxwell, and others have developed with us. I just think that after getting promoted into a higher league it’s easy to move away from what the best solution may be and look for what is seen to be more of an instant solution. Don’t fall into that trap please.

[GazLaz]

Orient signed around 14 players after that first season though with 7 on loan. So maybe they realised last season didn’t work so changed tact this year.
Mansfield may do the same

The two “experienced” players they signed permanently that summer, Jordan Graham and Joe Piggott, have been a disaster and added very little. Both players, although not in their 30s, are past their best and were signed on memory, as I like to refer to it as.

Managers remember them being good at one point and think they can rekindle that, but if you scratch the surface a bit you can see they have pretty obviously gone. Graham not helped by fitness and Piggott just generally not good enough for that level. Easy traps to fall into.

[IDM]

Orient signed around 14 players after that first season though with 7 on loan. So maybe they realised last season didn’t work so changed tact this year.
Mansfield may do the same

It’s more about what the clubs ethos should be. For me everything should revolve around development. It should be the first thought in everyone’s mind when making every decision. If you think having a couple of experienced players in the team can help the dressing room and assist this development, then fine, do it.

I’m also not saying we are not doing it currently quite well. JM, Olowu, Bailey, Mols, Maxwell, and others have developed with us. I just think that after getting promoted into a higher league it’s easy to move away from what the best solution may be and look for what is seen to be more of an instant solution. Don’t fall into that trap please.

If our first and foremost priority with players is development, then in my opinion this needs to be alongside stability, ie established in the division.  Then again, should we be promoted, isn’t the first priority staying in the higher division, consolidating that stability and then maybe look towards more development in the following season?  I’m not saying don’t have any development players, just not necessarily the main focus.

[GazLaz]

Orient signed around 14 players after that first season though with 7 on loan. So maybe they realised last season didn’t work so changed tact this year.
Mansfield may do the same

It’s more about what the clubs ethos should be. For me everything should revolve around development. It should be the first thought in everyone’s mind when making every decision. If you think having a couple of experienced players in the team can help the dressing room and assist this development, then fine, do it.

I’m also not saying we are not doing it currently quite well. JM, Olowu, Bailey, Mols, Maxwell, and others have developed with us. I just think that after getting promoted into a higher league it’s easy to move away from what the best solution may be and look for what is seen to be more of an instant solution. Don’t fall into that trap please.

If our first and foremost priority with players is development, then in my opinion this needs to be alongside stability, ie established in the division.  Then again, should we be promoted, isn’t the first priority staying in the higher division, consolidating that stability and then maybe look towards more development in the following season?  I’m not saying don’t have any development players, just not necessarily the main focus.

Players aren’t generally signed on a one year deal are they.

I think to have a clear structure at a club you need a consistent way of working. Your ethos this season has to be the same as last season and the same as next season. The teams that think short term with a view to doing things differently in the future, never get to the future.

What you do after getting promoted or not getting promoted has to be approached in the same way.

For me getting promoted for us shouldn’t be the goal. Football results shouldn’t be the goal. The primary objective of the football club (and any business really) needs to be something more specific and strategic than that. Results and success then become a byproduct of that. We don’t currently have a club in that identity IMO. We have a club in the managers identity focused on getting results on Saturday.

People may think I waffle clap trap and that football is about getting results in any way possible. I look at a bigger picture of creating a club that can punch above its weigh for as long as possible by making sustainable decisions. I want us to be the next Brentford or Brighton.

“But they spent millions” is the cry. I know how Tony works at Brighton and I know he knew how much he had to put in to reap an exponential return on investment. It wasn’t a gamble blindly throwing cash at the situation. They are now plotting a route to champions league football in the next couple of years.

[sedwardsdrfc]

The reason this becomes relevant for us is how we are choosing players. McCann like most managers is focused only on the next match which is why we start the season with Olowu and McGarth on the bench and Wood 39 and Anderson 33? 1st choice.

The point Gaz is making is someone is making a conscious decision to sign been there done it types. That’s probably a manager who thinks it’s low risk signing players he knows and trusts to be reliable in the here and now.

McCann has a big say in signings which is fair enough but as a club we need to be strong in what is signed off. I’d hope there’s some clear parameters on what suits us as a club in the long run rather than manager opinion on what he needs.

The fact we gave extensions to Wood, Close, Westbrooke, hurst and even Anderson not long ago all makes me a bit nervous that

[IDM]

I’m not sure I mentioned one year contracts anywhere.??

[bpoolrover]

Orient signed around 14 players after that first season though with 7 on loan. So maybe they realised last season didn’t work so changed tact this year.
Mansfield may do the same

It’s more about what the clubs ethos should be. For me everything should revolve around development. It should be the first thought in everyone’s mind when making every decision. If you think having a couple of experienced players in the team can help the dressing room and assist this development, then fine, do it.

I’m also not saying we are not doing it currently quite well. JM, Olowu, Bailey, Mols, Maxwell, and others have developed with us. I just think that after getting promoted into a higher league it’s easy to move away from what the best solution may be and look for what is seen to be more of an instant solution. Don’t fall into that trap please.

If our first and foremost priority with players is development, then in my opinion this needs to be alongside stability, ie established in the division.  Then again, should we be promoted, isn’t the first priority staying in the higher division, consolidating that stability and then maybe look towards more development in the following season?  I’m not saying don’t have any development players, just not necessarily the main focus.

Players aren’t generally signed on a one year deal are they.

I think to have a clear structure at a club you need a consistent way of working. Your ethos this season has to be the same as last season and the same as next season. The teams that think short term with a view to doing things differently in the future, never get to the future.

What you do after getting promoted or not getting promoted has to be approached in the same way.

For me getting promoted for us shouldn’t be the goal. Football results shouldn’t be the goal. The primary objective of the football club (and any business really) needs to be something more specific and strategic than that. Results and success then become a byproduct of that. We don’t currently have a club in that identity IMO. We have a club in the managers identity focused on getting results on Saturday.

People may think I waffle clap trap and that football is about getting results in any way possible. I look at a bigger picture of creating a club that can punch above its weigh for as long as possible by making sustainable decisions. I want us to be the next Brentford or Brighton.

“But they spent millions” is the cry. I know how Tony works at Brighton and I know he knew how much he had to put in to reap an exponential return on investment. It wasn’t a gamble blindly throwing cash at the situation. They are now plotting a route to champions league football in the next couple of years.

would you not need a billionaire owner that would put ridiculous amounts of money in thou? Im sure i read somewhere that brighton owe the owner at least a couple of hundred million

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Orient signed around 14 players after that first season though with 7 on loan. So maybe they realised last season didn’t work so changed tact this year.
Mansfield may do the same

It’s more about what the clubs ethos should be. For me everything should revolve around development. It should be the first thought in everyone’s mind when making every decision. If you think having a couple of experienced players in the team can help the dressing room and assist this development, then fine, do it.

I’m also not saying we are not doing it currently quite well. JM, Olowu, Bailey, Mols, Maxwell, and others have developed with us. I just think that after getting promoted into a higher league it’s easy to move away from what the best solution may be and look for what is seen to be more of an instant solution. Don’t fall into that trap please.

If our first and foremost priority with players is development, then in my opinion this needs to be alongside stability, ie established in the division.  Then again, should we be promoted, isn’t the first priority staying in the higher division, consolidating that stability and then maybe look towards more development in the following season?  I’m not saying don’t have any development players, just not necessarily the main focus.

Players aren’t generally signed on a one year deal are they.

I think to have a clear structure at a club you need a consistent way of working. Your ethos this season has to be the same as last season and the same as next season. The teams that think short term with a view to doing things differently in the future, never get to the future.

What you do after getting promoted or not getting promoted has to be approached in the same way.

For me getting promoted for us shouldn’t be the goal. Football results shouldn’t be the goal. The primary objective of the football club (and any business really) needs to be something more specific and strategic than that. Results and success then become a byproduct of that. We don’t currently have a club in that identity IMO. We have a club in the managers identity focused on getting results on Saturday.

People may think I waffle clap trap and that football is about getting results in any way possible. I look at a bigger picture of creating a club that can punch above its weigh for as long as possible by making sustainable decisions. I want us to be the next Brentford or Brighton.

“But they spent millions” is the cry. I know how Tony works at Brighton and I know he knew how much he had to put in to reap an exponential return on investment. It wasn’t a gamble blindly throwing cash at the situation. They are now plotting a route to champions league football in the next couple of years.

As I keep pointing out though, you have to have access to alot of money to be prepared to underwrite the risks. A number of clubs try that approach but haven't been quite as successful, therefore it becomes more difficult to sustain.

Just a snippet from Brentfords financial report...

"It also owes £29.8 million to external lenders, up from just £0.5 million in 2023. The report also mentions that Brentford FC Owner Matthew Benham's total investment remained unchanged at £104.4 million as of 30 June 2024, including £22.8 million in loans related to the Gtech Community Stadium project"

Brighton always had so much untapped potential and yes, they really are in the big boys league and they have something to sell if things become more difficult.

Luton on the other hand may have made strategic mistakes which leave them in a precarious position. I would imagine their owners are sweating right now and might be questioning their sustainability. They have a new stadium in the pipeline but that won't be ready for next season so they'll have to wait for the extra match income.

[GazLaz]

Orient signed around 14 players after that first season though with 7 on loan. So maybe they realised last season didn’t work so changed tact this year.
Mansfield may do the same

It’s more about what the clubs ethos should be. For me everything should revolve around development. It should be the first thought in everyone’s mind when making every decision. If you think having a couple of experienced players in the team can help the dressing room and assist this development, then fine, do it.

I’m also not saying we are not doing it currently quite well. JM, Olowu, Bailey, Mols, Maxwell, and others have developed with us. I just think that after getting promoted into a higher league it’s easy to move away from what the best solution may be and look for what is seen to be more of an instant solution. Don’t fall into that trap please.

If our first and foremost priority with players is development, then in my opinion this needs to be alongside stability, ie established in the division.  Then again, should we be promoted, isn’t the first priority staying in the higher division, consolidating that stability and then maybe look towards more development in the following season?  I’m not saying don’t have any development players, just not necessarily the main focus.

Players aren’t generally signed on a one year deal are they.

I think to have a clear structure at a club you need a consistent way of working. Your ethos this season has to be the same as last season and the same as next season. The teams that think short term with a view to doing things differently in the future, never get to the future.

What you do after getting promoted or not getting promoted has to be approached in the same way.

For me getting promoted for us shouldn’t be the goal. Football results shouldn’t be the goal. The primary objective of the football club (and any business really) needs to be something more specific and strategic than that. Results and success then become a byproduct of that. We don’t currently have a club in that identity IMO. We have a club in the managers identity focused on getting results on Saturday.

People may think I waffle clap trap and that football is about getting results in any way possible. I look at a bigger picture of creating a club that can punch above its weigh for as long as possible by making sustainable decisions. I want us to be the next Brentford or Brighton.

“But they spent millions” is the cry. I know how Tony works at Brighton and I know he knew how much he had to put in to reap an exponential return on investment. It wasn’t a gamble blindly throwing cash at the situation. They are now plotting a route to champions league football in the next couple of years.

would you not need a billionaire owner that would put ridiculous amounts of money in thou? Im sure i read somewhere that brighton owe the owner at least a couple of hundred million

Yes £200m in theory. He took over in L1, built a £100m stadium and they own £500m worth of players…

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Don't get me wrong GazLaz, I'm not doubting the system, what I'm saying is you need the owner(s) first with the resources who are prepared to take the risks with the system.

[Usher wide.]

Well slap my thighs & well done Brighton & Brentford.

1. We’re building something here that we hoped Darren Moore was going to pick up & run with..Club Doncaster. This is a concept that isn’t detrimental to the football club going forward, it’s a determination to have an ‘umbrella’ that whilst it projects the image of the City & its people, it does so by involving other events by & for the people of Doncaster ‘through’ the football club thus making ‘that’ (the football club) the focul point for such events.

2. We have Terry Bramall & his deep pockets to thank for enabling us to recruit the best manager we’ve had at the club since Sean. Gavin ‘gets’ Club Doncaster & its importance to the football club that Darren Moore only ever paid lip service to.

3. All that having been said, you either trust our clubs recruitment with Gavin & his management team when we are promoted or, you take the line that we have to ‘look for better’ (whatever that might entail given where we’ve been the last 5 seasons or more) in order to become the next Brighton or Brentford. Perhaps those that ‘spout’ as much might ‘hold our hands’ & step by step guide us to the ‘promised land’ of Premiership Football & (be still my beating heart) the glories of European nights.

So, ultimately it seems do we ‘trust’ Grant McCann to get us back into the Championship or have we simply employed a manager who looks to build a team “in his likeness” (didn’t SOD do that?) that will (if I read a certain poster correctly)  eventually flatline at league one or may, with far more funds than the current board may or may not be able to cough up, give us one season at best, with a fair wind, poor teams relegated from the Premiership (aka Luton Town) & poor team’s promoted into the Championship (aka Rotherham) then maybe perhaps two seasons in that division?

4. Is it truly ‘our dream’ as Doncaster Rovers supporters to eventually taste life in the Premiership…ever?

I trust this manager to achieve Championship football for our club & that will do for me.

[Colemans Left Hook]

I was waiting for him to be sacked on was it October 26th but the owner with deep pockets brought in players and more players

As we all know the Manager is aor was allowed to live in a flat that was part of the ground

[Colemans Left Hook]

and to think where the Old men of Mansfield were on October 26th after match 13

Orient were 20th

[Colemans Left Hook]

Now Folks    some of you couldn't see the wood from the trees almost ten years ago when I said I thought Wellens would make a manager

certainly don't agree jones,remember penney had walker to lean on and that helped I don't see anybody at the club to guide jones thro,my choice would be brian deane itching for a chance in this country maybe with jones.that could be the cheap option the rovers will look for.other names that have been talked about would cost

errr anyone thought of

wellens & Jones

not  jones & wellens

feel certain one day wellens will become a manager

which reminds me of  an Indiana Jones film the Holy Grail  ?  a Nazi picks the wrong chalice to drink and dies  and someone says " he chose poorly"

-- well " we chose poorly " that day just because a bloke was tall