What's in a Title?

[Dutch Uncle]

Rovers are a bit like the girl with the curl, right in the middle of her forehead:
 when we are good, we are very very good and when we are bad, we are horrid.

The bad we know from 1997-98 (most defeats ever in a football league season) and 1904-05 (8 points, equal least ever points gained in a season)

All things being equal (which of course they are not), since the majority of our seasons have been in a Division of 24 teams, we should expect to win a title once every 24 years or so. However, in our 93 Football League seasons we have actually won 8 Divisional Titles since the FL began in 1888-89.

Amazingly only 10 teams have won more: Liverpool 24, Manchester United 22, Manchester City 17, Arsenal 13, Sunderland 11, Wolves 11, Everton 10, Aston Villa 10, Leicester 10 and Sheffield Wednesday 9.

We are equal with Chelsea, Newcastle, Leeds, Derby, Burnley, Preston, Portsmouth and Notts County.

We have thus won more titles than everyone else including e.g. Spurs, Forest, Blackburn, Sheffield United and whoever else you want to pick out.

Our 8 titles in Tier 3 and 4 make us the clear leaders ahead of Chesterfield and Plymouth (6 each).

Our 4 Tier 4 titles make us joint leaders with Chesterfield, and we have joined Notts County and Brentford as the only teams to have won it under each three of its names (Division 4, Division 3 and FL Division 2).

Only Plymouth with 5 have more Tier 3 (including the old regionalised Divisions 3 North and South up to 1957-58) titles than our 4. It would be good to put that one right 

[Chris Black come back]

I was pondering over the weekend that since 1997/98 there surely cannot have been another club that has had the volatility we have had?

Relegation in 1997/1998
Promotion in 2002/2003
Promotion in 2003/2004 (c)
Promotion in 2007/2008
Relegation in 2011/2012
Promotion in 2012/2013 (c)
Relegation in 2013/2014
Relegation in 2015/2016
Promotion in 2016/2017
Relegation in 2022/2023
Promotion in 2024/2025 (c)

In those 27 years we have moved league on average every 2.5 seasons.

[Dutch Uncle]

I have a table of history over each clubs stay in league football, but without easily looking at shorter periods. However the original Wimbledon club had 9 changes of level in its 27 years in the league.

I do know that both Northampton (1961-70) and Swansea (1978-87) went from Division 4 to Division 1 and back again in 9 seasons 

And Rotherham recently went Rel/Prom/Rel/Prom/Rel/Prom/survive/Rel from 2016-17 to 2023-24 - 7 changes in 8 years

[keyser_soze]

I was talking to a Port Vale fan last week, he was hoping for the title as they hadn’t won one since 1959!

[roversdude]

Was there much monetary difference in Champions and promotion in the previous campaigns

[Pancho Regan]

Fascinating information Dutch, many thanks for sharing!

[Mike_F]

Was there much monetary difference in Champions and promotion in the previous campaigns

A very interesting question. Historically there has been a reasonable bonus for the league title. Hopefully still the case!

[idler]

Wasn’t it posted a while ago that there is no extra money for winning the title as it is included in the tv money?

[rich1471]

Wasn’t it posted a while ago that there is no extra money for winning the title as it is included in the tv money?

I'm sure you get nothing extra the only extra money you get is if you are promoted through the playoffs I.E gate money and wembley appearance

[Fal]

I was pondering over the weekend that since 1997/98 there surely cannot have been another club that has had the volatility we have had?

Relegation in 1997/1998
Promotion in 2002/2003
Promotion in 2003/2004 (c)
Promotion in 2007/2008
Relegation in 2011/2012
Promotion in 2012/2013 (c)
Relegation in 2013/2014
Relegation in 2015/2016
Promotion in 2016/2017
Relegation in 2022/2023
Promotion in 2024/2025 (c)

In those 27 years we have moved league on average every 2.5 seasons.

Luton?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I was pondering over the weekend that since 1997/98 there surely cannot have been another club that has had the volatility we have had?

Relegation in 1997/1998
Promotion in 2002/2003
Promotion in 2003/2004 (c)
Promotion in 2007/2008
Relegation in 2011/2012
Promotion in 2012/2013 (c)
Relegation in 2013/2014
Relegation in 2015/2016
Promotion in 2016/2017
Relegation in 2022/2023
Promotion in 2024/2025 (c)

In those 27 years we have moved league on average every 2.5 seasons.

Luton?

That's a good shout. Top tier, all the way to the Conference and back again. Plus starting their second lap it seems!!

[Dutch Uncle]

I was pondering over the weekend that since 1997/98 there surely cannot have been another club that has had the volatility we have had?

Relegation in 1997/1998
Promotion in 2002/2003
Promotion in 2003/2004 (c)
Promotion in 2007/2008
Relegation in 2011/2012
Promotion in 2012/2013 (c)
Relegation in 2013/2014
Relegation in 2015/2016
Promotion in 2016/2017
Relegation in 2022/2023
Promotion in 2024/2025 (c)

In those 27 years we have moved league on average every 2.5 seasons.

Luton?

That's a good shout. Top tier, all the way to the Conference and back again. Plus starting their second lap it seems!!

Just checked - Luton have had a total of 10 changes of league in the last 24 seasons compared with our 11 in 28 seasons

[Branton Red]

in our 93 Football League seasons we have actually won 8 Divisional Titles since the FL began in 1888-89.

Amazingly only 10 teams have won more: Liverpool 24, Manchester United 22, Manchester City 17, Arsenal 13, Sunderland 11, Wolves 11, Everton 10, Aston Villa 10, Leicester 10 and Sheffield Wednesday 9.

We are equal with Chelsea, Newcastle, Leeds, Derby, Burnley, Preston, Portsmouth and Notts County.

Fascinating stuff - thank you.

I have a question.

Given the top flight has decided they're too big for the old Football League and so IMO we can therefore justify expunging top flight titles from Football League records.

Have Rovers won the most (according to the current day split of divisions) Football League divisional titles i.e won more tier 2, 3 and 4 divisional titles than anyone else?

I'm imagining this maybe the case given that each of the teams listed above must include top flight titles in their title counts?

[Dutch Uncle]

in our 93 Football League seasons we have actually won 8 Divisional Titles since the FL began in 1888-89.

Amazingly only 10 teams have won more: Liverpool 24, Manchester United 22, Manchester City 17, Arsenal 13, Sunderland 11, Wolves 11, Everton 10, Aston Villa 10, Leicester 10 and Sheffield Wednesday 9.

We are equal with Chelsea, Newcastle, Leeds, Derby, Burnley, Preston, Portsmouth and Notts County.

Fascinating stuff - thank you.

I have a question.

Given the top flight has decided they're too big for the old Football League and so IMO we can therefore justify expunging top flight titles from Football League records.

Have Rovers won the most (according to the current day split of divisions) Football League divisional titles i.e won more tier 2, 3 and 4 divisional titles than anyone else?

I'm imagining this maybe the case given that each of the teams listed above must include top flight titles in their title counts?

Hi Branton and thanks. I see what you are trying to say but not sure I agree for two reasons. First, following your reasoning, it would not be fair to expunge all old Division 1 pre-premiership titles since the attitude began at that point. Secondly, while there is still promotion and relegation to and from the Premier league, it is still connected to the EFL, albeit  with an ever growing gap.

But nevertheless, it we count only tier 2, 3 and 4 titles our 8 would put us equal second behind Leicester with 9. Wolves would also be on 8, as would only Notts County from the rest. Pretty impressive actually 

Now if only Fergie hadn't bottled 2016-17 

[Branton Red]

But nevertheless, it we count only tier 2, 3 and 4 titles our 8 would put us equal second behind Leicester with 9. Wolves would also be on 8, as would only Notts County from the rest. Pretty impressive actually 

Now if only Fergie hadn't bottled 2016-17 

Thanks Dutch.

That's hugely impressive - especially given we haven't been members of the Football League for anywhere near as many seasons as Wolves and Notts County.

[Dutch Uncle]

The point I was making in my initial post is that is the seasons we have been good enough to win promotion, we have won the title far more often than expected.

Back in the Div 3 North days only champions were promoted, but excluding those 3 titles, we have only had 5 other promotions to go with the other 5 titles, i.e. winning a title half of the time.

In one case (Conference) only two were promoted, and in two cases (FL1 to Championship) three were promoted, but in the other 7 cases 4 were promoted from Tier 4 to 3. So in those 10 promotions, we have taken 10 out of 36 places for promotion. If the championship titles were spread evenly we would expect to win only 3 titles, not 5. Hence 'when we are good, we are very very good'. 

[NigelJ]

So, we have more Championships than any other team not to have played at the top level?

[Dutch Uncle]

Yes indeed, we have more Tier 2, 3, & 4 championships than anyone who has never played in tier 1

[NigelJ]

Yes indeed, we have more Tier 2, 3, & 4 championships than anyone who has never played in tier 1

Just tiers 3&4, surely!

[Upton Rover]

Great stats, very interesting

[idler]

Yes indeed, we have more Tier 2, 3, & 4 championships than anyone who has never played in tier 1

Just tiers 3&4, surely!

I think that Dutch means Leagues 1 & 2 plus Division 4 as they have changed names over the years.

[Donnywolf]

I was talking to a Port Vale fan last week, he was hoping for the title as they hadn’t won one since 1959!

And surely Rochdale must be the ones who stay put traditionally

Their record of promotions is abysmal . IF they get out of Conference it will be worth an open topped Bus parade for sure


They were "promoted" when Div 3North and South were split and they ended up in Div 3 but immediately relegated


They then waited till 68/9 for promotion from basement when we were Champs


Since then only 2 more Promos  but 3 relegations including into Conference ... so 3 promos in 56 years

[Dutch Uncle]

Apologies, reading the thread back this has become a little convoluted and confusing. Let me summarise here:

We have won 8 Titles (4 tier 3, 4 tier 4). This is more than anyone else (Chesterfield & Plymouth next with 6)

If you compile a list of all titles won at tiers 1 to 4, our total (still 8) is 11th on the all-time list. All the teams above us on that list have won titles in the top tier (Division 1 or Premiership)

If, as NigelJ suggests, you discount top tier titles (i.e. only count titles at tier 2, 3 & 4) then we are second behind Leicester (9) and equal with Wolves and Notts County

As a consequence, if you discount anyone who has ever played in the top tier (Leicester, Wolves and Notts County all have) we are top of the pile, having won the most titles. Although our 8 titles are all at tier 3 and 4, we are still top of this table of title winners for combined tiers 2,3, & 4 because anyone who won tier 2 played in tier 1 and is disqualified.

So, this is really a table of tier 3 and 4 winners with quite a lot of extra teams disqualified. 
 
I have a real talent for making simple things complicated 

[Dutch Uncle]

I was talking to a Port Vale fan last week, he was hoping for the title as they hadn’t won one since 1959!

And surely Rochdale must be the ones who stay put traditionally

Their record of promotions is abysmal . IF they get out of Conference it will be worth an open topped Bus parade for sure


They were "promoted" when Div 3North and South were split and they ended up in Div 3 but immediately relegated


They then waited till 68/9 for promotion from basement when we were Champs


Since then only 2 more Promos  but 3 relegations including into Conference ... so 3 promos in 56 years

Rochdale had 3 promotions (no championships) and 5 relegations in their 95 seasons in the FL - a change of status every 11.9 years. (When the regional 3rd Divisions converted to Division 3 and 4 for the 1958-59 season, Rochdale were put in Division 3. There are thus now 2 levels below that as the difference in promotions an relegations suggest)     

By contract, we have had 27 changes in our 93 years, one every 3.4 years

Interesting we were relegated together from Division 3 in 1958-59, and promoted together in 1968-69