Penalty decisions

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah, I know we have at last started to get some, but Christ alive, I've never known a season when we've been denied so many absolute stone cold ones.

Another one last night. That push on Molyneux with 15 minutes to go. I've just watched again on the full match replay - it was a stone cold as it looked at the time. Blatant push in the middle of the back. Anywhere else on the pitch, that's a foul. And there's nothing at all in the Laws of the Game, or instructions to refs to say that they have to apply different standards on decisions in the box. That one was simply an awful decision.

That follows another blatant miss last week at Huddersfield. Midway through the 2nd half, we were given a free kick on the edge of the box when Sharp was fouled. Watching the replay, the contact was clearly in the box.

I reckon that's now 6 absolute rock solid penalties we've had turned down this season. And we haven't had one given where there's been any doubt.

Put that together with the very worst reffing decision of the season (or in fact, pretty much of  any season) when Olowu wasn't sent off for that crazy lunge at Bailey, and we are still a long way in the minus numbers on decisions. Had we got the rub of the green on those decisions, we could well be on the edge of the playoffs.

I have to disagree with both penalty decisions, admittedly i haven't rewatched the highlights since last week but the one on Sharp was just outside the box and was the correct decison, the one on mols last night was extremely soft and i also didn't think that was a penalty either.

Olowu however should've been sent off.

I watched the video of last week's. At contact, the defender's feet were both well inside the box, and he's hit Sharp with his knee/thigh. Given that the line counts as being inside the box, it would have been pretty much impossible for him to make contact outside the box.

Not sure how you judge "soft" by the way. If a player is jumping to head the ball and gets shoved in the back by two hands, what is that but a foul?

A worse one was not given in the Charlton/Portsmouth game BST, thoughts on this? 2 mins in, the ref and the commentator both said no foul and i think that one is worse than the one on Moly by far.

https://youtu.be/cZNjLVTASas?si=tXDmmANejQPqqweR

Strange how different folk see different things. I'm really not being a deliberately awkward bugger here, but there's no way in a month of Sundays that is a penalty. The Portsmouth player deliberately changed his whole angle of run to make contact inevitable. his right leg went out nearly at 90 degrees to his direction of running. I think that was an excellent decision by the ref.

penalty for me he gets pushed in the back and that’s what most forwards would do and try and get across infront of the defender

If you are trying to shield the ball and a defender chooses to barge you in the back, I'd agree.

If you are running flat out, and just as a defender approaches you, you deliberately change your angle to step in front of him, that's the dictionary definition of "trying to buy a foul". That is obviously what happened there. The ref, to his credit, called him out.

[drfchound]

Yeah, I know we have at last started to get some, but Christ alive, I've never known a season when we've been denied so many absolute stone cold ones.

Another one last night. That push on Molyneux with 15 minutes to go. I've just watched again on the full match replay - it was a stone cold as it looked at the time. Blatant push in the middle of the back. Anywhere else on the pitch, that's a foul. And there's nothing at all in the Laws of the Game, or instructions to refs to say that they have to apply different standards on decisions in the box. That one was simply an awful decision.

That follows another blatant miss last week at Huddersfield. Midway through the 2nd half, we were given a free kick on the edge of the box when Sharp was fouled. Watching the replay, the contact was clearly in the box.

I reckon that's now 6 absolute rock solid penalties we've had turned down this season. And we haven't had one given where there's been any doubt.

Put that together with the very worst reffing decision of the season (or in fact, pretty much of  any season) when Olowu wasn't sent off for that crazy lunge at Bailey, and we are still a long way in the minus numbers on decisions. Had we got the rub of the green on those decisions, we could well be on the edge of the playoffs.

I have to disagree with both penalty decisions, admittedly i haven't rewatched the highlights since last week but the one on Sharp was just outside the box and was the correct decison, the one on mols last night was extremely soft and i also didn't think that was a penalty either.

Olowu however should've been sent off.

I watched the video of last week's. At contact, the defender's feet were both well inside the box, and he's hit Sharp with his knee/thigh. Given that the line counts as being inside the box, it would have been pretty much impossible for him to make contact outside the box.

Not sure how you judge "soft" by the way. If a player is jumping to head the ball and gets shoved in the back by two hands, what is that but a foul?

A worse one was not given in the Charlton/Portsmouth game BST, thoughts on this? 2 mins in, the ref and the commentator both said no foul and i think that one is worse than the one on Moly by far.

https://youtu.be/cZNjLVTASas?si=tXDmmANejQPqqweR

Strange how different folk see different things. I'm really not being a deliberately awkward bugger here, but there's no way in a month of Sundays that is a penalty. The Portsmouth player deliberately changed his whole angle of run to make contact inevitable. his right leg went out nearly at 90 degrees to his direction of running. I think that was an excellent decision by the ref.

penalty for me he gets pushed in the back and that’s what most forwards would do and try and get across infront of the defender

If you are trying to shield the ball and a defender chooses to barge you in the back, I'd agree.

If you are running flat out, and just as a defender approaches you, you deliberately change your angle to step in front of him, that's the dictionary definition of "trying to buy a foul". That is obviously what happened there. The ref, to his credit, called him out.

Good forwards always step across the line that the defender is running to prevent him from getting a touch on the ball and therefore stopping the forward from getting a shot away.
Other times, the forward might be just trying to get the ball in position to shoot with his preferred foot or to allow him to shoot across the keeper, which is probably what was happening in the video.

[jmt23]

My thought on why that obvious penalty from an even more obvious shove in the back, wasn’t given is:
Molly had an over the top reaction to it, making it look like he was diving.

He is doing this a lot this season, more than I’ve noticed before.

[ForsolongaRover]

Yeah, I know we have at last started to get some, but Christ alive, I've never known a season when we've been denied so many absolute stone cold ones.

Another one last night. That push on Molyneux with 15 minutes to go. I've just watched again on the full match replay - it was a stone cold as it looked at the time. Blatant push in the middle of the back. Anywhere else on the pitch, that's a foul. And there's nothing at all in the Laws of the Game, or instructions to refs to say that they have to apply different standards on decisions in the box. That one was simply an awful decision.

That follows another blatant miss last week at Huddersfield. Midway through the 2nd half, we were given a free kick on the edge of the box when Sharp was fouled. Watching the replay, the contact was clearly in the box.

I reckon that's now 6 absolute rock solid penalties we've had turned down this season. And we haven't had one given where there's been any doubt.

Put that together with the very worst reffing decision of the season (or in fact, pretty much of  any season) when Olowu wasn't sent off for that crazy lunge at Bailey, and we are still a long way in the minus numbers on decisions. Had we got the rub of the green on those decisions, we could well be on the edge of the playoffs.

I have to disagree with both penalty decisions, admittedly i haven't rewatched the highlights since last week but the one on Sharp was just outside the box and was the correct decison, the one on mols last night was extremely soft and i also didn't think that was a penalty either.

Olowu however should've been sent off.

I watched the video of last week's. At contact, the defender's feet were both well inside the box, and he's hit Sharp with his knee/thigh. Given that the line counts as being inside the box, it would have been pretty much impossible for him to make contact outside the box.

Not sure how you judge "soft" by the way. If a player is jumping to head the ball and gets shoved in the back by two hands, what is that but a foul?

A worse one was not given in the Charlton/Portsmouth game BST, thoughts on this? 2 mins in, the ref and the commentator both said no foul and i think that one is worse than the one on Moly by far.

https://youtu.be/cZNjLVTASas?si=tXDmmANejQPqqweR

Strange how different folk see different things. I'm really not being a deliberately awkward bugger here, but there's no way in a month of Sundays that is a penalty. The Portsmouth player deliberately changed his whole angle of run to make contact inevitable. his right leg went out nearly at 90 degrees to his direction of running. I think that was an excellent decision by the ref.

penalty for me he gets pushed in the back and that’s what most forwards would do and try and get across infront of the defender

If you are trying to shield the ball and a defender chooses to barge you in the back, I'd agree.

If you are running flat out, and just as a defender approaches you, you deliberately change your angle to step in front of him, that's the dictionary definition of "trying to buy a foul". That is obviously what happened there. The ref, to his credit, called him out.

Good forwards always step across the line that the defender is running to prevent him from getting a touch on the ball and therefore stopping the forward from getting a shot away.
Other times, the forward might be just trying to get the ball in position to shoot with his preferred foot or to allow him to shoot across the keeper, which is probably what was happening in the video.

I can see the point that is being made here, but surely fundamentally, the Laws of the Game specify that the action has to be deliberate or careless. If another player runs across your path, contact is unavoidable when you are so close and it has been caused by the man in possession of the ball unexpectedly changing direction. There has been nothing deliberate or careless on the part of the defender.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah, I know we have at last started to get some, but Christ alive, I've never known a season when we've been denied so many absolute stone cold ones.

Another one last night. That push on Molyneux with 15 minutes to go. I've just watched again on the full match replay - it was a stone cold as it looked at the time. Blatant push in the middle of the back. Anywhere else on the pitch, that's a foul. And there's nothing at all in the Laws of the Game, or instructions to refs to say that they have to apply different standards on decisions in the box. That one was simply an awful decision.

That follows another blatant miss last week at Huddersfield. Midway through the 2nd half, we were given a free kick on the edge of the box when Sharp was fouled. Watching the replay, the contact was clearly in the box.

I reckon that's now 6 absolute rock solid penalties we've had turned down this season. And we haven't had one given where there's been any doubt.

Put that together with the very worst reffing decision of the season (or in fact, pretty much of  any season) when Olowu wasn't sent off for that crazy lunge at Bailey, and we are still a long way in the minus numbers on decisions. Had we got the rub of the green on those decisions, we could well be on the edge of the playoffs.

I have to disagree with both penalty decisions, admittedly i haven't rewatched the highlights since last week but the one on Sharp was just outside the box and was the correct decison, the one on mols last night was extremely soft and i also didn't think that was a penalty either.

Olowu however should've been sent off.

I watched the video of last week's. At contact, the defender's feet were both well inside the box, and he's hit Sharp with his knee/thigh. Given that the line counts as being inside the box, it would have been pretty much impossible for him to make contact outside the box.

Not sure how you judge "soft" by the way. If a player is jumping to head the ball and gets shoved in the back by two hands, what is that but a foul?

A worse one was not given in the Charlton/Portsmouth game BST, thoughts on this? 2 mins in, the ref and the commentator both said no foul and i think that one is worse than the one on Moly by far.

https://youtu.be/cZNjLVTASas?si=tXDmmANejQPqqweR

Strange how different folk see different things. I'm really not being a deliberately awkward bugger here, but there's no way in a month of Sundays that is a penalty. The Portsmouth player deliberately changed his whole angle of run to make contact inevitable. his right leg went out nearly at 90 degrees to his direction of running. I think that was an excellent decision by the ref.

penalty for me he gets pushed in the back and that’s what most forwards would do and try and get across infront of the defender

If you are trying to shield the ball and a defender chooses to barge you in the back, I'd agree.

If you are running flat out, and just as a defender approaches you, you deliberately change your angle to step in front of him, that's the dictionary definition of "trying to buy a foul". That is obviously what happened there. The ref, to his credit, called him out.

Good forwards always step across the line that the defender is running to prevent him from getting a touch on the ball and therefore stopping the forward from getting a shot away.
Other times, the forward might be just trying to get the ball in position to shoot with his preferred foot or to allow him to shoot across the keeper, which is probably what was happening in the video.

I can see the point that is being made here, but surely fundamentally, the Laws of the Game specify that the action has to be deliberate or careless. If another player runs across your path, contact is unavoidable when you are so close and it has been caused by the man in possession of the ball unexpectedly changing direction. There has been nothing deliberate or careless on the part of the defender.

This. Effectively the striker has hit the defender's arm with his back, not the other way round.

[donnievic]

If the attacker has the ball under control it’s upto the defender to realise this and upto them to not go into them,same has attacker it’s the ball forward then goes across in front of the defender and the defender clips the heels of the attacker accidentally it’s still a foul

[drfchound]

If the attacker has the ball under control it’s upto the defender to realise this and upto them to not go into them,same has attacker it’s the ball forward then goes across in front of the defender and the defender clips the heels of the attacker accidentally it’s still a foul

This.  All players have the right to keep the  ball in a position which makes it difficult for an opponent to get to it.
Is an attacker moving the ball into such a position not allowed.

[ForsolongaRover]

If the attacker has the ball under control it’s upto the defender to realise this and upto them to not go into them,same has attacker it’s the ball forward then goes across in front of the defender and the defender clips the heels of the attacker accidentally it’s still a foul

This.  All players have the right to keep the  ball in a position which makes it difficult for an opponent to get to it.
Is an attacker moving the ball into such a position not allowed.

I have quoted the Laws of the Game. The referee is the arbiter of what is deliberate or careless and that must apply to "heel clipping" as well as everything else. 

[Donnywolf]

I'm just going to divert this slightly on to the referee's general performance last night. What did we think? What I couldn't understand was how we ended up with four bookings to their one, and that was the keeper time wasting before the pen.

When he booked Byrne fairly early on, he set the tone, he set the bar for what a booking was going to be in the game. So I can't understand why some of the fouls committed by them weren't bookings. Particularly one on half way where Moly was taken out way after he'd played the ball.

See Rate the Ref , bet he gets some grief on there

I remember Gibson getting ball over on East Stand side after a corner to them and speeding past a Terriers player who completely chopped him off , preventing a chance of a breakaway

Taking one for the Team they call it but , whoops , Stockridge chose not to give him a Yellow

Barely 5 minutes later Gibson was in almost the exact same spot and slightly pulled back one of the Town players and boom . Instant Yellow Card for us

Stockbridge is an ass and Udders fans ironically were singing ole ole ole ole shit ref shit ref despite getting most of that type of decision

[Barmby Rover]

If any player needed to be booked on Tuesday it was McGrath, constantly in a wrestling match with Huddersfield forwards, I was amazed he wasn't sent off!

[Spud]

If any player needed to be booked on Tuesday it was McGrath, constantly in a wrestling match with Huddersfield forwards, I was amazed he wasn't sent off!

Strange way of looking at it, unless you're a Huddersfield fan.
McGrath was in a physical battle alright, mostly with Charles. He dealt with it very well.

[donnievic]

A lot on here don’t understand alot of the laws regarding cautions mainly soft fouls that are stopping a promising attack developing and not making a challenge to make a genuine attempt to play the ball

[donnievic]

If the attacker has the ball under control it’s upto the defender to realise this and upto them to not go into them,same has attacker it’s the ball forward then goes across in front of the defender and the defender clips the heels of the attacker accidentally it’s still a foul

This.  All players have the right to keep the  ball in a position which makes it difficult for an opponent to get to it.
Is an attacker moving the ball into such a position not allowed.

I have quoted the Laws of the Game. The referee is the arbiter of what is deliberate or careless and that must apply to "heel clipping" as well as everything else. 

so you think accidental clip of the heels when a attacker crosses in front of a defender wouldn’t be deemed as a foul

[ForsolongaRover]

If the attacker has the ball under control it’s upto the defender to realise this and upto them to not go into them,same has attacker it’s the ball forward then goes across in front of the defender and the defender clips the heels of the attacker accidentally it’s still a foul

This.  All players have the right to keep the  ball in a position which makes it difficult for an opponent to get to it.
Is an attacker moving the ball into such a position not allowed.

I have quoted the Laws of the Game. The referee is the arbiter of what is deliberate or careless and that must apply to "heel clipping" as well as everything else. 

so you think accidental clip of the heels when a attacker crosses in front of a defender wouldn’t be deemed as a foul

I don’t “think”; what I have done is to quote the Laws of the Game - not something which is my opinion. Fouls  have to be judged against the standard laid down in the “Laws”. Perhaps a “clip”, as opposed to accidental contact that causes an opponent to fall, implies something deliberate, hence justification. But the “Laws” underpin all fouls.

The reason we argue and disagree so much about refereeing decisions is that it’s not easy and if Judges and Juries had as little time to decide guilt or innocence as a ref does, our legal system would not work in a way that earned much respect at all.

[BillyStubbsTears]

If the attacker has the ball under control it’s upto the defender to realise this and upto them to not go into them,same has attacker it’s the ball forward then goes across in front of the defender and the defender clips the heels of the attacker accidentally it’s still a foul

This.  All players have the right to keep the  ball in a position which makes it difficult for an opponent to get to it.
Is an attacker moving the ball into such a position not allowed.

I have quoted the Laws of the Game. The referee is the arbiter of what is deliberate or careless and that must apply to "heel clipping" as well as everything else. 

so you think accidental clip of the heels when a attacker crosses in front of a defender wouldn’t be deemed as a foul

Intentions obviously come into it.

If an attacker is genuinely manoeuvring to get into a position of advantage, and as a result a defender runs into the back of him, yes it's a foul.

That wasn't what happened in that incident in the video.

The attacker was already ideally placed to get in a left foot shot or cross. The defender couldn't have stopped that. So there was no honest reason for the attacker to suddenly and dramatically change his entire direction, and move into the path the defender was running along. In moving into that position, if he'd not been run into by the defender, he wouldn't have had any physically realistic way of getting a shot or cross in. It's a very odd decision to make, if you think he was being honest.

You might ,at a massive stretch, say he was trying to shield the ball from the defender. But what striker worth his salt is going to break into the box, be a yard in front of the defender and in a perfect position to shoot...then decide to stop and shield the ball.


None of it makes any sense unless his intention was to engineer a collision. And if he did that (which, frankly, I can't believe anyone is doubting) then it's no foul.

[donnievic]

If the attacker has the ball under control it’s upto the defender to realise this and upto them to not go into them,same has attacker it’s the ball forward then goes across in front of the defender and the defender clips the heels of the attacker accidentally it’s still a foul

This.  All players have the right to keep the  ball in a position which makes it difficult for an opponent to get to it.
Is an attacker moving the ball into such a position not allowed.

I have quoted the Laws of the Game. The referee is the arbiter of what is deliberate or careless and that must apply to "heel clipping" as well as everything else. 

so you think accidental clip of the heels when a attacker crosses in front of a defender wouldn’t be deemed as a foul

I don’t “think”; what I have done is to quote the Laws of the Game - not something which is my opinion. Fouls  have to be judged against the standard laid down in the “Laws”. Perhaps a “clip”, as opposed to accidental contact that causes an opponent to fall, implies something deliberate, hence justification. But the “Laws” underpin all fouls.

The reason we argue and disagree so much about refereeing decisions is that it’s not easy and if Judges and Juries had as little time to decide guilt or innocence as a ref does, our legal system would not work in a way that earned much respect at all.

not sure which bit you read but this says other wise

Accidental but Careless: If a defender misjudges a tackle, clips heels while running, or cuts across an attacker, it is a direct free kick, regardless of whether they meant to trip them.

[ForsolongaRover]

If the attacker has the ball under control it’s upto the defender to realise this and upto them to not go into them,same has attacker it’s the ball forward then goes across in front of the defender and the defender clips the heels of the attacker accidentally it’s still a foul

This.  All players have the right to keep the  ball in a position which makes it difficult for an opponent to get to it.
Is an attacker moving the ball into such a position not allowed.

I have quoted the Laws of the Game. The referee is the arbiter of what is deliberate or careless and that must apply to "heel clipping" as well as everything else. 

so you think accidental clip of the heels when a attacker crosses in front of a defender wouldn’t be deemed as a foul

I don’t “think”; what I have done is to quote the Laws of the Game - not something which is my opinion. Fouls  have to be judged against the standard laid down in the “Laws”. Perhaps a “clip”, as opposed to accidental contact that causes an opponent to fall, implies something deliberate, hence justification. But the “Laws” underpin all fouls.

The reason we argue and disagree so much about refereeing decisions is that it’s not easy and if Judges and Juries had as little time to decide guilt or innocence as a ref does, our legal system would not work in a way that earned much respect at all.

not sure which bit you read but this says other wise

Accidental but Careless: If a defender misjudges a tackle, clips heels while running, or cuts across an attacker, it is a direct free kick, regardless of whether they meant to trip them.

Yes - as you say, if it is judged to be careless then it is a foul and squarely covered by the Laws. If you are referring to the alleged penalty incident, the case rests on who did the “cutting across”. I would go so far as to say that if an attacker with the ball runs straight into a defender who does not change his position it is the attacker who should be penalised. The defender has been passive, neither careless nor reckless.

[donnievic]

If the attacker has the ball under control it’s upto the defender to realise this and upto them to not go into them,same has attacker it’s the ball forward then goes across in front of the defender and the defender clips the heels of the attacker accidentally it’s still a foul

This.  All players have the right to keep the  ball in a position which makes it difficult for an opponent to get to it.
Is an attacker moving the ball into such a position not allowed.

I have quoted the Laws of the Game. The referee is the arbiter of what is deliberate or careless and that must apply to "heel clipping" as well as everything else. 

so you think accidental clip of the heels when a attacker crosses in front of a defender wouldn’t be deemed as a foul

I don’t “think”; what I have done is to quote the Laws of the Game - not something which is my opinion. Fouls  have to be judged against the standard laid down in the “Laws”. Perhaps a “clip”, as opposed to accidental contact that causes an opponent to fall, implies something deliberate, hence justification. But the “Laws” underpin all fouls.

The reason we argue and disagree so much about refereeing decisions is that it’s not easy and if Judges and Juries had as little time to decide guilt or innocence as a ref does, our legal system would not work in a way that earned much respect at all.

not sure which bit you read but this says other wise

Accidental but Careless: If a defender misjudges a tackle, clips heels while running, or cuts across an attacker, it is a direct free kick, regardless of whether they meant to trip them.

Yes - as you say, if it is judged to be careless then it is a foul and squarely covered by the Laws. If you are referring to the alleged penalty incident, the case rests on who did the “cutting across”. I would go so far as to say that if an attacker with the ball runs straight into a defender who does not change his position it is the attacker who should be penalised. The defender has been passive, neither careless nor reckless.

no I wasn’t referring to the pen more in general cases where a defender clips the heels of a attracker accidentally,which is still a foul,the pen incident I still think was one as he was punched in the back,yes he does also put his right leg out to try to make contact which then it shouldn’t be a pen if the defender had just caught that leg but he didn’t