End of Billy Sharp, never again in a Rovers shirt!

[BillyStubbsTears]

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

You can't back your opinion up by saying he hasn't been tried.  Yet again you avoid the league 1 issue. Heff consistently played at that level this season and still didn't score at the rate of Sharp whilst playing in the level below.  No doubt there's an excuse for that one aswell.

I've now decided we should recall Lewis Guy, he hasn't had a run of starts in this league either so he might be good enough.

Load of twaddle.

I despair.

You are selecting facts to suit a particular argument and ignoring other pertinent ones.

You are making the cardinal error of statistics, which is to draw conclusions from a limited set of data.

Here's an example. Billy Sharp scored 1 non-penalty goal from 13 starts between Boxing Day and the end of February. Did that mean that he was no good? Of course not because you accept that strikers go through periods of goalscoring form. You judge them over a long run, not over isolated periods where the figures just happen to support your prejudices.

I'll set you a little logic exam as a further example.

Heffernan scored 10 league goals in 19 starts last season.

Sharp, at Sheffield Utd scored 4 in 17 starts.

So Heffernan scored at more than twice the rate that Sharp did.

Did that PROVE that Heffernan was a better striker than Sharp? Did Sharp's figures last season PROVE that he was incompetent at this level? Of course they didn't. The two players were in different circumstances, and comparison is pointless without taking that into account. Especially when you take into account the fact that Sharp didn't get extended runs of appearances, and was clearly not rated by his manager.

The point is NOT whether Heffernan is better or worse than Sharp. The issue that you have raised on a number of occasions is whether Heffernan is competent at this level. You are selecting a few facts to try to back up your opinion that he isn't. You are ignoring a whole raft of evidence that suggests that, given a run (which any striker - Billy Sharp included - needs) he is.

You'd make a decent politician mind.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Alan Southstand wrote:

Without any facts to back it up, I think most people recognise the overall impact that Billy had on the team, when compared to anyone who held the slot previously. You can quote statistics all day long, BST, but at the end of the day, I know who I'd rather have in our side and who I'd rather go and watch.

It's just not worth the effort making the comparison anymore, as I think we've moved on, as a team and as a Club. I just hope we can keep the momentum going!

I refer the Honorable Gentleman to my post above.

[DonnyNoel]

steve@dcfd wrote:

Quote
Hate to be a killjoy, but we had both Shack and Billy in the team this season and we are looking like we are going to finish mid table, so it is maybe a bit too optimistic to assume that we have a good chance of promotion if we buy them both.

If these two players had stayed fit we would have definetly made the playoffs. If we had not loaned these two players we would have been in the bottom four.Our results in the last period prove that. We have also missed Brian Stock,at his best, which we have not seen this season. If Billy had still been fit, after the Barnsley game we would have got the points we required to be in the playoffs. Pre season will be interesting, can we keep our manager? Will we sign the players we need to maintain our position aswell as progress? Will we have to wait till End of July ,August again to find out. Will we be told again by the JR and the Board we can aim for the playoffs yet signing of quality players is not there.

But there's no guarentee players will stay fit. If we could take our best 11 into every game and they stay on form then we're certainly a good bet for the playoffs. But what's the possibility of that happening? This season we have had injuries (as well as others) to Sharp, Shack and Stock. We have also seen (although its up for debate I accept) Copps, Shiels and Woods have an off spell.

When these things have happened we've been a bit lacking. When you look at some of the players on the bench for the top 6 then I start to think we need more than Sharp and Shack(/Ward) to make the playoffs and thats going to be hard to do on our wage structure.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

You'd make a decent politician mind.

AS would you.  You just cannot concede that you might actually be wrong.  I'm quite happy to see the alternate point of view are you?

One thing that gets me is how people constantly refer to the past.  The anti Tory lot do it by referring to things that happened 15-20 years ago and in football we get arguments saying but he did it in that season.  That's all irelevant in reality.  Things move so quickly.

Now back to critising the government, that's all I seem to do in my studies these days.

[wing commander]

In a way your both right...Sharp is hoping for the best deal he can get and he is unlikely to get that here, so despite how good he has been,it will put too much pressure on the club financially to secure him.
   However i have to say to bst (thankfully because we have agreed twice in a row recentley)that whatever stats you may or may not have, Paul Heffernan's play is not good enough or consistent enough in the championship.You cant just score goals as a striker for Doncaster in this league,you have to work hard,stay switched on,make runs to free up others and contribute to general team play and that is something you will not get from Heffs no matter how much of a run he gets its not his natural game...SOD knows this and thats why he will be on his way this summer..
   We have to try and find a compromise between the two,a player who has the ability to do these things but wont cost the earth..Difficult i know and what we will probabley end up with is a player who isnt as prolific as Sharp but works much harder than Heffs...
   I wish Heffs all the best,hes been fantastic for us but league 1 is where he needs to be at this stage of his career...

[wing commander]

Oh for god's sake dont get BST onto politics,you could put a red rosette on a donkey and he would vote for it.lol  

[BillyStubbsTears]

wing commander wrote:

In a way your both right...Sharp is hoping for the best deal he can get and he is unlikely to get that here, so despite how good he has been,it will put too much pressure on the club financially to secure him.
   However i have to say to bst (thankfully because we have agreed twice in a row recentley)that whatever stats you may or may not have, Paul Heffernan's play is not good enough or consistent enough in the championship.You cant just score goals as a striker for Doncaster in this league,you have to work hard,stay switched on,make runs to free up others and contribute to general team play and that is something you will not get from Heffs no matter how much of a run he gets its not his natural game...SOD knows this and thats why he will be on his way this summer..
   We have to try and find a compromise between the two,a player who has the ability to do these things but wont cost the earth..Difficult i know and what we will probabley end up with is a player who isnt as prolific as Sharp but works much harder than Heffs...
   I wish Heffs all the best,hes been fantastic for us but league 1 is where he needs to be at this stage of his career...

Opinions again spadger. In my opinion, Heffernan did all the things that you're asking for last season. He looked a consumate centre forward, making intelligent and selfless runs, bringing other players into the game AND scoring goals.

But that's just my opinion. As you know, I prefer cold hard facts

Fact is that when Heffernan had a run last season, our form was superlative. Better than it ever was at any stage this season by the way. Are you suggesting that from Boxing Day onwards last season (when we averaged better than 2 points a game) Heffernan was carried by the rest of the side and did nothing more than score goals?

[BillyStubbsTears]

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

You'd make a decent politician mind.

AS would you.  You just cannot concede that you might actually be wrong.  I'm quite happy to see the alternate point of view are you?

One thing that gets me is how people constantly refer to the past.  The anti Tory lot do it by referring to things that happened 15-20 years ago and in football we get arguments saying but he did it in that season.  That's all irelevant in reality.  Things move so quickly.

Now back to critising the government, that's all I seem to do in my studies these days.

I'm perfectly happy to concede that I'm wrong. I do it regularly. But I need persuading by well constructed argument, not by the assertion of an opinion.

I'm assuming that you didn't study History ay University? Neither did I by the way, but during my adult life, I stumbled across the amazing finding that the world didn't start the day that I first developed an opinion. Things happened before that, and by understanding what had happened previously, you can get a better handle on both the present and the future.

Regarding football strikers, this means that if they have a excellent, consistent, career-long record then barring aging and injuries, you might expect them to continue to be excellent and consistent. That's why I consider previous seasons when I pass judgement on a player, rather than the last half a dozen games.

Regarding politicians, it means that if a political philosophy has led to the area that I love and live in being shit on from a great height several times in the past, there is a strong chance that it would lead to the same result in the future. That's why I think about the Tories' historical record when I pass judgement on them.

[wing commander]

You could argue this point all day Billy,wether we are right or wrong the vast majority of people dont think that Heffs is good enough to play as our main striker..
  However SOD is the only man whoe's opinion matters and he appears to have made his mind up..Who knows Heffs might not show the correct attitude in training,he may not follow instructions on the pitch,his constant niggles and slow ability to return to form or they may just not like each other.Whatever the reason Heffs career at Doncaster is coming to a end wether Billy stays or goes...

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

Opinions again spadger. In my opinion, Heffernan did all the things that you're asking for last season. He looked a consumate centre forward, making intelligent and selfless runs, bringing other players into the game AND scoring goals.

But that's just my opinion. As you know, I prefer cold hard facts

Fact is that when Heffernan had a run last season, our form was superlative. Better than it ever was at any stage this season by the way. Are you suggesting that from Boxing Day onwards last season (when we averaged better than 2 points a game) Heffernan was carried by the rest of the side and did nothing more than score goals?[/quote]

Something I do agree with, last season he was good, he hasn't done that this season when he's played though.  I still don't buy the \"he hasn't had a run\" line, he's had a run at Bristol and come back here and done nothing.

I guess we'll have to disagree.  On history, thank god I haven't studied that for the last 4 years.

[BillyStubbsTears]

wing commander wrote:

Oh for god's sake dont get BST onto politics,you could put a red rosette on a donkey and he would vote for it.lol  

Not quite, but I did vote for Martin Redmond in the 80s, which amounts to the pretty much the same thing.

Not that the Tories have any 4x2s in their ranks eh?

I'll give you an example: Tory shadow minister who has a safe seat down south. I was at University with him. Proper Tim Nice But Dim type. Thick as two short planks, but with a path laid out fro him from public school, through university, into the Guards and the City and then to a safe Tory seat.

There was a move by the Student Union to rename the Union Building after Nelson Mandela. Typical posturing student politics, but remember, it was at the time when Mandela was still in prison and this was all about raising the profile of the issue.

TNBD got on his high horse and organised a student revolt to overturn this decision. He called an Extraordinary Union Meeting to debate it. He stood up on the stage and waffled on about Mandela being a terrorist etc. Then he said, \"Anyway. Why should it only be Mandela who's put forward as a saint. There have been other people who have suffered in South Africa. Have you ever heard of Steve Riko?\"

Silence.

\"There, I thought you wouldn't have heard of Steve Riko.\"

Stiffled giggles in the 1000 strong audience.

\"What?! Why are you laughing? It's not funny you know. Steve Riko was killed by the police and you're laughing about it!\"

Someone shouts out from the back, \"It's BIKO you thick f**k,\" and the place collapses in laughter.

And THAT chap, my friends, will be in the Cabinet if the Tories win the election.

[BillyStubbsTears]

wing commander wrote:

You could argue this point all day Billy,wether we are right or wrong the vast majority of people dont think that Heffs is good enough to play as our main striker..
  However SOD is the only man whoe's opinion matters and he appears to have made his mind up..Who knows Heffs might not show the correct attitude in training,he may not follow instructions on the pitch,his constant niggles and slow ability to return to form or they may just not like each other.Whatever the reason Heffs career at Doncaster is coming to a end wether Billy stays or goes...

I don't doubt that his career here is two matches away from being finished. He was effectively out the door the day we signed Sharp. In fact the writing was on the wall 12 months ago when he was dropped as soon as we were practically safe - only to be brought back into the side sharpish when we then lost a couple on the bounce and arses started quivering again, and then be dropped again after he scored in the match that made us mathematically safe. It was clear from that moment on that he wasn't wanted.


Tell you what though, I'm in awe of your ability to find out that the \"vast majority of people don't think Heffernan is good enough.\" You do opinion polls in your spare time?

[bpoolrover]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

Bit of a contradiction there.  You say we weren't doing anything without Sharp as front man.  Before him it was Heffs, now it's Heffs again yet you think it's an error to let him go?

Once again it's a shame that people don't do a bit of research before giving us their opinions.

1) Heffernan started only 2 games at the start of the season. We got two creditable draws.

2) in the 5 matches we played before Sharp came, we got 5 points.

3) In Sharp's first 5 starts we got 3 points.

4) In Sharp's first 9 games we got 7 points.

5) Sharp scored just 2 goals in his first 7 starts.  

The point being? Sides and strikers often need time to get going. We did NOT suddenly catch fire when Sharp arrived. If anything we went backwards for a short while. And Sharp dud NOT suddenly look like a world beater when he arrived. It took him a while to settle in to the side, reach match sharpness and start taking chances.

For some reason, you seem to assume that Heffernan should be judged by different criteria. If Heffernan does not start to score immediately, or if the team doesn't click immediately when he us picked, you take this as evidence that he is not up to this level. Be consistent laddie.

bst u go on about heffs he did well last year but thats when it was last year,things chance in that time and your stats mean nothing really unless you go on this year

[wing commander]

Like you say Billy we all have tales,i know the wife of current Labour  Mp who worked here many years ago.They were that skint she had a second job here as a cleaner after hours.He would pick her up on the way home from squash and sit in the car park for an hour, when i suggested to him that if he came in and helped her she could leave early he refused as it was against his principles to work and claim benefit..He never did a stroke for the 6 years she worked here despite me offering him work on more than one occasion.He was a member of the socialist workers which made me laugh because he wouldnt do a days work..And like your Tory billy he also held a highish position in the labour goverment...

[wing commander]

And no i dont do stats,but i do read forums,talk to rovers fans in pubs and matches and wether my unnofficial opinion poll is wrong, i would still strongly suggest that my comment that the vast majority of Rovers fans \"dont think he is good enough to be our main striker\" is correct however good he has been in the past..

[topnotch_Donny]

If these two players had stayed fit we would have definetly made the playoffs. If we had not loaned these two players we would have been in the bottom four.Our results in the last period prove that. We have also missed Brian Stock,at his best, which we have not seen this season. If Billy had still been fit, after the Barnsley game we would have got the points we required to be in the playoffs. Pre season will be interesting, can we keep our manager? Will we sign the players we need to maintain our position aswell as progress? Will we have to wait till End of July ,August again to find out. Will we be told again by the JR and the Board we can aim for the playoffs yet signing of quality players is not there.

I totally agree.

Also this season, we have missed JOC playing out wide.

As good as JOC has been at centre back, I cant wait for him to return to full back so that he can give us that other dimension when he runs forward with the ball.

Chambers makes some good runs off the ball, but Jimmy is different gravy to Chambers running down the line with the ball

[VikingJames]

Ooh, I've been missing this. I love a good \"is Paul Heffernan up to it\" debate.

For me, the issue is not 'who you would rather have in the team out of Heffs and Sharp,' because obviously it would be Sharp. The issue for me is what we do at the end of this season when the pair of them skidaddle.

I'd love to be proved wrong, but for me, the chances of us:
a) being able to afford to get Billy Sharp here permanently
b) being able to hold off interest from bigger clubs to get Billy Sharp here permanently,
are nil.

That leaves us, going into pre season, with Waide Fairhurst, Lewis Guy and James Hayter, the latter two being out of contract. That to me doesn't look like a forward line up that will get us enough goals to have another good season at this level, so we're obviously going to need somebody else. Quality Championship strikers are like gold dust, especially if you have a very limited budget, so my concern would be, if we are going to let Heffernan leave (for nowt,) and splash out a bit on a new striker, how do we know that they are going to do a better job for us than Heffs can do when he is firing on all cylinders. Buying/loaning another striker could turn out to be a huge waste of our (limited) resources if we already have a bloke there who can do a job. This could have a knock on effect, because then we come to the dilemma where we need to strengthen other areas of the team, but the budget won't stretch far enough because we've blown half of it on an area of the team where we already had a potential solution.

[Snods Shinpad 2]

As SOD mentioned in an interview a couple of weeks ago, SOD had a meeting with Heffs at the start of the season to talk about terms for a new contract. They failed to agree terms with SOD stating that they were miles apart in their valuations.

The fact that SOD sat down to talk terms at the start of the season, when apparently a lot of the squad are even now still waiting to find out if they will get a contract seems to indicate that SOD does rate Heffs.

So apart from all the other arguments about whether Heffs is capable of being a good marksman at this level (which he obviously is), the fact remains that according to SOD the terms Heffs wanted were not good value for the club.

Not being party to what these figures are, we can assume than SOD thinks he can get a better player for the same money*.

*edit: or that we just couldn't afford him full stop.

[VikingJames]

Snods Shinpad wrote:

Not being party to what these figures are, we can assume than SOD thinks he can get a better player for the same money.

I hope we can. And fingers crossed said player will knock in better than 1 goal every other start, like Heff did a short time ago.