Three Lions... Again.

[River Don]

Robbie Williams and Fcuking Russell Brand have done a cover version of The Lightening Seeds Three Lions. Jesus wept.

And to top that, Simon Cowell of all people has teamed up with Dizzee Rascal and bloody James Corden to do an unofficial England track.

It's just crass isn't it? It makes me not want to support England, I'm struggling to find much enthusiasm for the World Cup this time as it is.

[rtid88]

Your having a laugh right?!?!

You don't hear 'crass' very much these days do you?

[Thinwhiteduke]

Well, in my opinion, there hasnt been a decent Official England Anthem since New Orders 'World In Motion'.

As a side issue, is there anything Dizzee Rascal wont do to get a bit of publicity?

[Snodthegod]

Not since they were banned from the Roxy.

[River Don]

Thinwhiteduke wrote:

Well, in my opinion, there hasnt been a decent Official England Anthem since New Orders 'World In Motion'.

As a side issue, is there anything Dizzee Rascal wont do to get a bit of publicity?

Or Russell Brand or James Corden or any of them.

It's easy to forget there actually is a football tournament on amid the shit storm of hype and marketing that envelops the thing these days.

[Townender]

I have to agree about the enthusiasm bit, I honestly fell as though I couldnt g.a.f. about it.

[Thinwhiteduke]

Townender wrote:

I have to agree about the enthusiasm bit, I honestly fell as though I couldnt g.a.f. about it.

You'll care even less when we get knocked out in the quarter finals then?  

[Barmby Rover]

I don't care at all about how England do, just abunch of spoilt brats who only care about being there as it increases their already inflated wage packets. I watched some of the game against Japan and could not believe how poor they played. Anything like that and they will fail to qualify for the knock outs. I do enjoy watching Brazil play, with their natural skills but I won't be watching a loads of the World Cup.

[Thinwhiteduke]

Barmby Rover wrote:

I don't care at all about how England do, just abunch of spoilt brats who only care about being there as it increases their already inflated wage packets. I watched some of the game against Japan and could not believe how poor they played. Anything like that and they will fail to qualify for the knock outs. I do enjoy watching Brazil play, with their natural skills but I won't be watching a loads of the World Cup.

Do you know what..I think I agree with you. In fact, one of the most enjoyable Tournaments I have watched were the last European Championships where we failed to qualify.

[BobG]

The good thing about rarely, rarely watching television is that I never get to see all this shite. I don't even know who Dizzee Rascal is. Never heard of the bloke/woman/thing (Delete as appropriate). Anyway, as you all know full well, I haven't supported England since 1998. This time I've decided to place my favours with Argentina. So come on you Argies!

Why the Argies? 'Cos it'll annoy more Englishmen than any other team!

Cheers

BobG

PS of course, with part of God in charge, the Argies are likely to lose all three group matches anyway.

[DonnyNoel]

Thinwhiteduke wrote:

Barmby Rover wrote:

I don't care at all about how England do, just abunch of spoilt brats who only care about being there as it increases their already inflated wage packets. I watched some of the game against Japan and could not believe how poor they played. Anything like that and they will fail to qualify for the knock outs. I do enjoy watching Brazil play, with their natural skills but I won't be watching a loads of the World Cup.

Do you know what..I think I agree with you. In fact, one of the most enjoyable Tournaments I have watched were the last European Championships where we failed to qualify.

Sad to say I'm in the \"underwhelmed\" bracket too. Don't get me wrong I'm well behind them but don't seem to get as enthusiastic as I used to. Joking aside, I think Rovers have spoilt me - contrast our success/possible overachievements of the last 10 years with the exact opposite for England! Went to WC98 and had a great time but since then it always seems to end in uninspiring defeat with the odd exception of 90 & 96.

[silent majority]

You miserable buggers! Its nice to know that we are being supported by all the people at home! (not).

[DonnyNoel]

silent_majority wrote:

You miserable buggers! Its nice to know that we are being supported by all the people at home! (not).

I know! Just can't put my finger on why its like that - probably just the media hype that gets tiring before a ball is kicked!

[Barmby Rover]

It is having respect for the players that has gone, when they have become minor celebs that the tabloids report about I am not interested in them. On the field they dive and cheat whenever they can, feign injury to get players booked. They are the worst sort of representatives we could have.

[Rovers Return]

None of you with the exception of Silent appear to have attended a World Cup then? Once bitten........

Roll on next Friday, South Africa here I come.

Lack of enthusiasm? Now I understand why the Keepmoat is like a graveyard. :dry:  :dry:

[CusworthRovers]

Sweet Jesus, get a grip. Time to balance this thread.

I'm looking forward to this, I will shout myself hoarse for England. I'm excited and nervous now. Come on England.

In all honesty I do not read the papers so all the tacky hype and bandwagon jumpers, I have little knowledge or just dismiss it immediately.


Get behind the boys. As individuals I hate most of the t**ts, but I'm supporting our country not them alone, it's about football and it's about England. Come on England!!!

[DonnyNoel]

Rovers Return wrote:

None of you with the exception of Silent appear to have attended a World Cup then? Once bitten........

Roll on next Friday, South Africa here I come.

Lack of enthusiasm? Now I understand why the Keepmoat is like a graveyard. :dry:  :dry:

I went to 98 - England v Tunisia in Marseille, cracking long weekend if not a bit hostile from the locals.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm slavering with anticipation, but not excusivley because of watching England. It's because of what Simon Barnes, the greatest sports writer alive says here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/international/article674582.ece

The World Cup is a wonderful spectacle, giving us everything that sport has to offer. Sublime skill, the joy of victory, heartache in unfair defeat, and drama in spades. As Barnes says, at some time over the next month, we'll all be awe-struck at the performance of a player or a team that we've barely given a moment's thought to. Anyone who sees the World Cup through a purely English lens is like someone going to a top class restaurant and demanding to have egg and chips without looking at the menu.

Every once in a while, England add to the drama and the spectacle, however briefly. The classic match against Germany in Italy 90, which had everything you could ever wish for in a football match. The brief, doomed fights against all odds against Argentina in 86 and 98. More often, we are shown up to be lumpen plodding artisans in a field of sumptuously skillful artists.

I have been to a World Cup. I had a wonderful few days in Koln in 2006 and I will treasure the experience for the rest of my life. The feeling of riding on the train from Schipol to Koln, slowly seeing the train fill up with fans from all over the world - realising that I was partcipating in the greatest show on Earth. The spirit in Koln was wonderful. Brazilian Samba dancers. Ecuadorians dressed as multi-coloured Condors. Ghanaians in national dress. The Swiss, Swedish and the local Germans drinking the place dry and singing along all night in a way that was both macho AND unthreatening. Even the non-competing Paddies and Jocks had their fans there, joining in the party, dancing and drinking with the folk from other countries.

And then the English. Watching the England-Ecuador match on the big screen round the corner from the wonderful Cathedral was a squirming embarrassment. The football was like a Nora Batty gatecrashing a party of supermodels. Grim, po faced, inelegant. The England supporters matched it. Grim, po faced, inelegant. Wandering round in lairy gangs, looking by turns menacing or embarrassed at being incapable of joining in the big party, not being able to relate to the other nations. I remember being stood next to a cropped-headed, bull necked group of Chelsea fans in the big screen square, eyes popping out of their heads as they screamed, \"Gaaan Jaaaayyy-Teeee. Fackin kill im!!!\" and the like at the events unfolding on the screen. Utterly, utterly, utterly against the entire spirit and feel of every other national group I saw there.

You might, might just be able to justify that spirit if it went hand in hand with a dominatingly victorious team. You could justify it as the swaggering arrogance of perennial victors. But ally it to a pitiful, embarassingly inept team and it was a deeply saddening thing to see.

As I say, I'd love for England to win the World Cup. For us to win it with panache and elegance, for our fans to be cosmopolitan, worldly sophisticates who could engage with the rest of the party rather than bunker down in their own laager/lager mentality. I suspect I'll be disappointed on both counts again this time round, but I'll have a wonderful time watching everybody else.

[DMnumber4]

CusworthRovers wrote:

Sweet Jesus, get a grip. Time to balance this thread.

I'm looking forward to this, I will shout myself hoarse for England. I'm excited and nervous now. Come on England.

In all honesty I do not read the papers so all the tacky hype and bandwagon jumpers, I have little knowledge or just dismiss it immediately.


Get behind the boys. As individuals I hate most of the t**ts, but I'm supporting our country not them alone, it's about football and it's about England. Come on England!!!

At last someone else seems to share my same enthusiasm for a tournament which is only 7 days away. I've been counting down to it ever since we qualified! Euro 08 was such a hollow summer because we weren't there. Yes I'd watch the matches but i couldn't care less who won.

The World Cup also produced a goal for a country other than my own that made me jump out my seat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pURcokdbqq4

bloody argies  

[River Don]

CusworthRovers wrote:

Sweet Jesus, get a grip. Time to balance this thread.

As individuals I hate most of the t**ts, but I'm supporting our country not them alone, it's about football and it's about England. Come on England!!!

I think that's partly it Cussy, the likes of Terry, Ferdinand, Ashely Cole and others. I just don't like them.

And I admit the World Cup is just a TV experience for me. Being urged to shout for England with Dizzee Rascal courtesy of TalkTalk,  buy a Toshiba flatscreen TV, Budweiser official beer, Walkers World Cup crisps together with Marks & Sparks World Cup sandwiches. Peter Crouch making an arse of himself for Pringles. I know it's always been there but it's difficult to get away from these days. It's the same thing that's put me off Christmas.

Then there's the daily none stories in the press and on TV, I'm sick of the sight of Wayne Rooney and Fabio Capellos square face already.

Perhaps I'll feel better about it once the football actually starts.

[rtid88]

My God!! What is up with half the people on this forum, Get behind your national team in the greatest competition in the world and stop your chuffing moaning! Like Rovers Return said its no wonder its so quiet in the Keepmoat with some of you lot in there!!
Get the beers in, your England shirt washed and get ready for an exciting summer of football!!!


COME ON ENGLAND!!!

[CusworthRovers]

here here.

I appreciate the hype is most annoying, but as said, we are all intelligent enough.......don't read the shite that is being published, listen to the naffness, don't take all the ads in, switch off, take it away from your mind etc etc..........just focus on England and Football.

It always beats me why people cite the shite in the press, and yet seek it themselves to see it. Glutton for punishment if you ask me

[silent majority]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

I'm slavering with anticipation, but not excusivley because of watching England. It's because of what Simon Barnes, the greatest sports writer alive says here:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/international/article674582.ece

The World Cup is a wonderful spectacle, giving us everything that sport has to offer. Sublime skill, the joy of victory, heartache in unfair defeat, and drama in spades. As Barnes says, at some time over the next month, we'll all be awe-struck at the performance of a player or a team that we've barely given a moment's thought to. Anyone who sees the World Cup through a purely English lens is like someone going to a top class restaurant and demanding to have egg and chips without looking at the menu.

Every once in a while, England add to the drama and the spectacle, however briefly. The classic match against Germany in Italy 90, which had everything you could ever wish for in a football match. The brief, doomed fights against all odds against Argentina in 86 and 98. More often, we are shown up to be lumpen plodding artisans in a field of sumptuously skillful artists.

I have been to a World Cup. I had a wonderful few days in Koln in 2006 and I will treasure the experience for the rest of my life. The feeling of riding on the train from Schipol to Koln, slowly seeing the train fill up with fans from all over the world - realising that I was partcipating in the greatest show on Earth. The spirit in Koln was wonderful. Brazilian Samba dancers. Ecuadorians dressed as multi-coloured Condors. Ghanaians in national dress. The Swiss, Swedish and the local Germans drinking the place dry and singing along all night in a way that was both macho AND unthreatening. Even the non-competing Paddies and Jocks had their fans there, joining in the party, dancing and drinking with the folk from other countries.

And then the English. Watching the England-Ecuador match on the big screen round the corner from the wonderful Cathedral was a squirming embarrassment. The football was like a Nora Batty gatecrashing a party of supermodels. Grim, po faced, inelegant. The England supporters matched it. Grim, po faced, inelegant. Wandering round in lairy gangs, looking by turns menacing or embarrassed at being incapable of joining in the big party, not being able to relate to the other nations. I remember being stood next to a cropped-headed, bull necked group of Chelsea fans in the big screen square, eyes popping out of their heads as they screamed, \"Gaaan Jaaaayyy-Teeee. Fackin kill im!!!\" and the like at the events unfolding on the screen. Utterly, utterly, utterly against the entire spirit and feel of every other national group I saw there.

You might, might just be able to justify that spirit if it went hand in hand with a dominatingly victorious team. You could justify it as the swaggering arrogance of perennial victors. But ally it to a pitiful, embarassingly inept team and it was a deeply saddening thing to see.

As I say, I'd love for England to win the World Cup. For us to win it with panache and elegance, for our fans to be cosmopolitan, worldly sophisticates who could engage with the rest of the party rather than bunker down in their own laager/lager mentality. I suspect I'll be disappointed on both counts again this time round, but I'll have a wonderful time watching everybody else.

Hi BST, I'm not a big fan of Simon Barnes, and this article is quite typical of a populist journalist. I've lost count of the amount of articles you see that contrast the sophisticated football supporters from the rest of the world compared to the 'cropped-headed, bull necked English' type. There's nothing wrong with spouting a few incorrect stereotypes is there? And this article has them all.

And I can explain why. Its obvious to me that Simon Barnes wasn't present there that day because he has his facts totally wrong. Firstly he states he went to the World Cup in Cologne, yet he never went in the stadium? Chelsea fans at a WC, you must be joking! Big screen in the Cathedral square, wrong again, there wasn't one there. The facts are this, how was he watching the England game in Cologne when England were playing Ecuador in Stuttgart? Any lairy gangs of English fans would have been in Stuttgart not wandering the streets of Cologne, and his description of the gaily coloured Ecuadorians in national dress enjoying themselves would have been wrong too. They were in Stuttgart with us, all 300 of them!

I was in the stadium in Stuttgart that day, and believe me nobody was po faced. The city centre heaved with England fans who couldn't get tickets. And believe me when I say this, the England fans made World Cup 2006, without us it would have been a miserable experience! Poor journalism yet again!

[BillyStubbsTears]

SM.

Honoured though I am to have my words confused with those of Simon Barnes, I really should point out a bit of confusion here. Barnes's article was in the link in my post. Read it. You might be pleasantly surprised.

The rest of the post was written by me, reflecting my own experience of being in Koln in mid June 2006. I stand by every word of it.

I should also add a few factual pointers.

1) I agree that there was no big screen in Roncalliplatz outside the cathedral. I didn't say that there was. I saw most of the games on the big screen in Heumarkt, half a kilometer or so from Roncalliplatz, \"just round the corner from the wonderful cathedral\" as I said.

2) You were in Stuttgart that weekend. I was in Koln. I wouldn't presume to comment on what happened in Stuttgart. I assume, when you think about it, that you wouldn't really claim to be able to comment authoritatively on what happened in Koln? I can assure you (having been there) that there were indeed many, many thousands of England fans in Koln that weekend. Even though England were playing in Stuttgart. There were also a few dozen  flamboyant Ecuadoreans, Mexicans (who were playing in Leipzig), Italians and Aussies (who were playing in Kaiserslautern), Brazillians and Ghanaians (who were playing in Dortmund) etc. Not everyone who went to Germany that summer went to the games. In fact I suspect that only a small proportion did. The rest went to whichever part of Germany was convenient and had beds, to join in the wonderful party atmosphere. As Barnes says, every city was \"Fussballstadt\" that summer. Or as Pete Davies says in All Played Out about Italia 90, the whole country becomes Planet Football for the duration of the World Cup. Being at the matches themselves is only one part of the experience.

3) In fact, being at the matches is probably a one-dimensional experience, as you tend to be swamped by fans of the nationality playing in the games you go to see. Only someone who had just followed England around could possibly say that the English fans \"made\" Germany 2006. An uber-Little Englander comment. The England fans certainly didn't \"make\" that weekend in Koln. The party was in full swing either side of the England match. On the day of the match itself, when it seemed like half of London suddenly appeared in Koln, they brought an atmosphere of grim latent menace to an easy-going carnival. There was no out and out trouble that I saw, but it's informative of our attitude that we see that as a success. We are so steeped in a football culture that equates supporting with pissed-up laddish intimidation, that we think we are being sophisticated if we DON'T smash the place us after a match.

4) As for the Chelsea fans supporting England, I can only assume that the CFC Lion tatoos they had must have beem a mirage or a fashion accessory. As I said, I wouldn't presume to comment on who might have been next to you in Stuttgart. I'd appreciate the same attitude in return.

Don't get me wrong. As I said in my original post, I would be delighted if England won with panache and the fans wooed the world with wit, exuberance and fun. I'm just yet to experience either.

It's wilful ignorance to suggest as you do that the English fans are the realy party animals. Not all are sociopaths, but enough are. Like the 20 or so Leeds fans I had the misfortune to share a plane from Sheffield to Brussels with during Euro 2000. The ones who were trying to phone their mates in Holland and Belgium during the flight to plan how they were going to \"kill a Turk\". The ones throwing full beer cans up and down the cabin in flight, goosing the stewardesses and fighting over the last minature bottle of whiskey in the trolley. Scum of the fcuking earth, delighting in represneting England Abroad. Not all are like that, but then again, I don't often bump into ANYONE like that from other countries. We have had for a long time a big issue on this score, and it leaves people like me ambivalent about supporting England while the problem persists.

Last point. You surely don't REALLY think Simon Barnes is a populsit journalist? He is a million miles from that. He writes PHILOSOPHY, on the interaction between sport and the Human Condition. That's what makes it so thought provoking and intelligent. Any sports fans with half a brain cell should worship the bloke.

PS: as if to reinforce the point, I've just driven past a boozer down the road. Across the frontage is a St George flag with foot high letters spelling No Surrender across it.

I wonder. No Surrender to. Or against whom?

While the rest of the world sees the World Cup as a source of celebration , why does a sizeable proportion if our country see it as a showcase for bristling aggression?

[Jonathan]

Well I can't wait for the tournament to start. I just love the game and the entire concept of getting behind my home town (primarily) and my country. There's plenty to be ashamed of in England but I don't think we should miss the opportunity to unite behind our team in probably the greatest tournament on earth.

I don't care if the team is full of prima-donnas, I'm not bothered about who has slept with whose partner and I couldn't care less how much they earn, their clubs pay them the money and if I could earn it I would too. The fact is that we have selected the most talented bunch of footballers we have, to go and represent the country that we live in and compete against the very best in the world.

I don't expect us to win it and have long thought that the quarter finals is a 'par' performance, but whatever happens we should be due some drama and excitement along the way. I don't follow England around the world as I can't afford it, but I make no apologies for having plenty to drink and cheering them on passionately from the pubs. It's not loutish in my view (some people might be but not genuine football fans), it's just a chance to escape the pressures of the day to day routine, unite behind a common cause and show a rare bit of pride in our country that we seem to take a sadistic pleasure in seeing panned at home and abroad.

The sound of the opening bars of Three Lions, World in Motion, or even Walkaway by Cast stir up so many emotions, highs and lows but above all vivid memories of great times.

I can't wait to support England, and I can't wait to see the game I love taking over the television screens.

[silent majority]

BST,

Firstly an apology, I didn't read your post accurately and had assumed that you had cut and pasted said article rather than pointed the way and then offered an opinion. Furthermore I must confess confusing the Simon Barnes you mention with another, different, half witted journalist. I will put that down to a very late journey back from Glasgow and an early start this morning. Interestingly I have seen more flags of St George in the last few days in that football backwater than ever could be imagined.

However I must take issue with you in your description of the typical England fan and the surroundings you experienced. I wouldn't argue with your experiences as you describe them, however a majority of England fans who follow the national team will agree with me when I say that your impressions are not reflective of what we see. Firstly, it wasn't me who stated that England fans made the World Cup in 2006, nor was it me who stated they made Euro 2004 in Portugal, it was both FIFA and Uefa respectively who did so, voting England fans the fans of the tournament on both occasions. I have travelled the World following England through qualifying tournaments and competitions for quite some time now and I've seen most of what their is to see. To suggest that the typical England fan is some kind of knuckle dragging voyeur of tournaments as opposed to the flamboyant sophisticated participants from other nations doesn't fit with my experience. I've witnessed the hooligan element from England's opponents in places as widespread as Moscow, Slovakia, Madrid, Lens, Toulouse, Kiev etc etc. Don't worry every nation has them, yet surprisingly due to the way the official supporters club is run we have virtually none. I do understand that when England play an away friendly or similar in a very close European country a different England party animal is attracted to that venue, Berlin, Amsterdam are good examples, but not the wholesale support your post suggests.

We have the capability of being as fun loving and worldly wise as any of the nations we see in a competition, but as is so typical of our nation we choose to focus on the other prevalent cultures. For instance, how much time did the BBC film crew we spoke to in Germany follow the England fans around the cultural hotspots of Germany? Did they follow the fans who visited the museums, the wine routes of the Moselle valley, the Roman heritage in Trier, the delights of camping in the Black Forest? No, they chose the hotspots of certain city centres and shock television. Every tournament figures are kept for the amount of arrests made from each nation, do we come top, no, do we come second, no, surprisingly our figures appear in the very bottom of this league table.

During the tournament in Germany a very English and Caribbean scene took place in the centre of Nuremberg. The very next day England were meeting Trinidad & Tobago in our group game but in the days previous 6,000 England and T&T supporters got together to organise a whole day of a joint cultural sporting experience, playing cricket in a park, followed by dancing, singing and a celebration of a unique and fascinating sharing of our historical and cultural activities. To suggest that we go to these worldwide sporting events and are merely spectators with our pissed up laddish intimidation is so wide of the mark. Sometimes people only see what they want to see.

You say, 'Don't get me wrong. As I said in my original post, I would be delighted if England won with panache and the fans wooed the world with wit, exuberance and fun. I'm just yet to experience either.' Well our experience of following England is just that, wit exuberance and fun, and believe me when I say we will do exactly the same again in South Africa and do not be surprised if we are once again voted the fans of the tournament. My experiences of following England are so different to yours.

By the way, my favourite journalist would be David Conn of the Guardian.

[not on facebook]

silent majority wrote 'chelsea fans at WC you must be joking'

where did that one come from fella,i know iam out of the following of are national team today,but as fir yer chelsea fans slant i must beg to differ

ok they might not be as promiment on the england away scene
today as they was from 1980's right upto cfc winning the prem i guess due to club before country honour.

when chelsea were shite they was a very strong hard core of cfc
going all over with england as the norm was to fly independent for 3day jaunts for all and sundry

with chelsea fc now in CL every sesaon that as had knock on effect to the 3day jaunt on england travel to the travel in and back on day of game with 'flight options'

[silent majority]

oslorovers wrote:

silent majority wrote 'chelsea fans at WC you must be joking'

where did that one come from fella,i know iam out of the following of are national team today,but as fir yer chelsea fans slant i must beg to differ

ok they might not be as promiment on the england away scene
today as they was from 1980's right upto cfc winning the prem i guess due to club before country honour.

when chelsea were shite they was a very strong hard core of cfc
going all over with england as the norm was to fly independent for 3day jaunts for all and sundry

with chelsea fc now in CL every sesaon that as had knock on effect to the 3day jaunt on england travel to the travel in and back on day of game with 'flight options'

But haven't you just made my point Oslo? Yes they may have been prevalent on the England scene some years ago but not today. Take a look at the England flags on display at most away games and you won't see many Chelsea, nor will you see many supporters of Premier League clubs. The official 'Englandfans' forum doesn't feature any Chelsea supporters that I am aware of.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SM.

I made the point earlier that you, ATTENDING the England matches, would have had a particular experience in WC2006. There has been a big effort in the last couple of decades to weed out the bad lads and stop them ATTENDING England matches. Kind of goes hand in hand with the general gentrification of football, and it's hardly surprising that the people who now go to the matches are a different breed. I suspect there are far fewer of the sort who I sat amongst last time I saw England play in the flesh a generation ago - a 20-something lass with a little kid, screaming bug-eyed, \"fcuk off your Froggy cnuts\" as the opposition came out, England fans making monkey chants at black players on both sides, Wembley pubs full of gangs singing \"No Surrender to the IRA\" (which was strange as England were playing France, but there you go). To be perfectly honest, after that experience, I decided I'd prefer never to associate myself with scum like that again. That's not my England.

I'm sure the spirit surrounding the attending England fans has improved dramatically, and maybe I'm missing something lovely. I'm sure that actually being part of this milleu is an uplifting experience. But the ones who attend the matches are a minority. There were more England fans in Koln that weekend than there were inside the stadium in Stuttgart. And, to re-iterate again, these England fansd stood out as being something separate from the big, easy going party that was going on. I suspect it was probably unintentional, but they brought an air of gang-ish intimidation and the spirit improved no end when they left.

I'm not necessarily saying that these, or the scum from Leeds I encountered in 2000, or the ones putting up No Surrender flags at our local are typical. Maybe I'm just unlucky in the ones I bump into...

[Rovers Return]

silent_majority wrote:

BST,

Firstly an apology, I didn't read your post accurately and had assumed that you had cut and pasted said article rather than pointed the way and then offered an opinion. Furthermore I must confess confusing the Simon Barnes you mention with another, different, half witted journalist. I will put that down to a very late journey back from Glasgow and an early start this morning. Interestingly I have seen more flags of St George in the last few days in that football backwater than ever could be imagined.

However I must take issue with you in your description of the typical England fan and the surroundings you experienced. I wouldn't argue with your experiences as you describe them, however a majority of England fans who follow the national team will agree with me when I say that your impressions are not reflective of what we see. Firstly, it wasn't me who stated that England fans made the World Cup in 2006, nor was it me who stated they made Euro 2004 in Portugal, it was both FIFA and Uefa respectively who did so, voting England fans the fans of the tournament on both occasions. I have travelled the World following England through qualifying tournaments and competitions for quite some time now and I've seen most of what their is to see. To suggest that the typical England fan is some kind of knuckle dragging voyeur of tournaments as opposed to the flamboyant sophisticated participants from other nations doesn't fit with my experience. I've witnessed the hooligan element from England's opponents in places as widespread as Moscow, Slovakia, Madrid, Lens, Toulouse, Kiev etc etc. Don't worry every nation has them, yet surprisingly due to the way the official supporters club is run we have virtually none. I do understand that when England play an away friendly or similar in a very close European country a different England party animal is attracted to that venue, Berlin, Amsterdam are good examples, but not the wholesale support your post suggests.

We have the capability of being as fun loving and worldly wise as any of the nations we see in a competition, but as is so typical of our nation we choose to focus on the other prevalent cultures. For instance, how much time did the BBC film crew we spoke to in Germany follow the England fans around the cultural hotspots of Germany? Did they follow the fans who visited the museums, the wine routes of the Moselle valley, the Roman heritage in Trier, the delights of camping in the Black Forest? No, they chose the hotspots of certain city centres and shock television. Every tournament figures are kept for the amount of arrests made from each nation, do we come top, no, do we come second, no, surprisingly our figures appear in the very bottom of this league table.

During the tournament in Germany a very English and Caribbean scene took place in the centre of Nuremberg. The very next day England were meeting Trinidad & Tobago in our group game but in the days previous 6,000 England and T&T supporters got together to organise a whole day of a joint cultural sporting experience, playing cricket in a park, followed by dancing, singing and a celebration of a unique and fascinating sharing of our historical and cultural activities. To suggest that we go to these worldwide sporting events and are merely spectators with our pissed up laddish intimidation is so wide of the mark. Sometimes people only see what they want to see.

You say, 'Don't get me wrong. As I said in my original post, I would be delighted if England won with panache and the fans wooed the world with wit, exuberance and fun. I'm just yet to experience either.' Well our experience of following England is just that, wit exuberance and fun, and believe me when I say we will do exactly the same again in South Africa and do not be surprised if we are once again voted the fans of the tournament. My experiences of following England are so different to yours.

By the way, my favourite journalist would be David Conn of the Guardian.

Well said Silent thats certainly my experience!