Congratualtions Keir Starmer

[drfchound]

Hound.

There isn't an alternative.

It is the correct thing to do.

And it won't turn us into Venezuela.

I'm not criticising the economics. The economics is textbook stuff.

I'm criticising the hypocrisy.

I knew that really BST, but because they have no choice then surely hypocrisy doesn’t come into it under the circumstances.
If they had done this off their own back if the Coronavirus hadn’t happened then I could see your point.

[Filo]

Hound.

There isn't an alternative.

It is the correct thing to do.

And it won't turn us into Venezuela.

I'm not criticising the economics. The economics is textbook stuff.

I'm criticising the hypocrisy.

I knew that really BST, but because they have no choice then surely hypocrisy doesn’t come into it under the circumstances.
If they had done this off their own back if the Coronavirus hadn’t happened then I could see your point.

Do you think Brown had no choice in 2008 hound?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

It's not a question of choice. The Tories have said consistently that these policies are not acceptable IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Like Filo says, the Tories insisted in 2008-10 that running a big deficit was economic lunacy, when in fact it was the textbook response to the GFC.

That is what I mean by hypocrisy.

[Ldr]

Hound.

It's not a question of choice. The Tories have said consistently that these policies are not acceptable IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES.

Like Filo says, the Tories insisted in 2008-10 that running a big deficit was economic lunacy, when in fact it was the textbook response to the GFC.

That is what I mean by hypocrisy.

Times change, if these measures were not taken would that have made you happier as then it wouldnt be hypocritical? Course not, I'm not sure why you feel the need to keep on at this?

[idler]

If something is unsustainable or impossible then surely if you later implement it then you have to admit that your previous stance was incorrect or you didn't allow for all eventualities.
This is surely the case whoever is in charge?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Exam Question.

Imagine you are in a parallel universe where Corbyn and McDonnell won the election in December.

Then CV-19 hit.

And the economy shrank by 30%.

And the BoE announced it was going to print money to fund the Govt defecit.

Do you think there would have been support from the Right for this?

Revision tip. Have a look at how the Right responded all round the world to centre-left Govts running large deficits in response to the GFC in 2008-10.

[Ldr]

Sure a wise man said not so long back that this wasnt the time for politicking, wonder what happened to him?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm not politicking.

I'm entirely supporting the Govt's actions.

It's a great shame that the same thing didn't happen from the Opposition during the last national crisis.

There is a huge difference between politicking and pointing out inconsistencies in political stances.

At the very time that D-Day was happening, there were political differences being aired about the post-War Welfare State.

You can absolutely support Govt action in a crisis while still debating differences in overall philosophy.

[Ldr]

Like I say, times (and things change) talking of politicking, I have an idea for a seperate thread and your input will be welcomed on it, give me 5 mins

[Filo]

Like I say, times (and things change) talking of politicking, I have an idea for a seperate thread and your input will be welcomed on it, give me 5 mins

Did times not change in 2008?

[wilts rover]

Announcing his package of reforms, Starmer said: “I am immensely proud of the size and energy of the party. People were inspired in their thousands by Jeremy Corbyn to join Labour, and we must not lose that idealism and radicalism.

inspiration, idealism and radicalism anyone...

They are all Corbynistas now - get over it.

https://labourlist.org/2020/02/starmer-unveils-eight-key-reforms-to-make-labour-open-respectful-creative-and-engaging/

You ever been to Beijing?

Tiannanmen Square is breathtaking. There's a 50 foot high picture of Mao looking down austerely from the walls of the Forbidden Palace. He's effectively been elevated to God-like status.

Then you go round the corner and there's Beijing's Oxford Street. Versace, Armani, Jimmy Choo...that sort of thing.

And in the middle of the street is a statue of Deng Xiao Ping. The man who picked up the shattered pieces of China after Mao's death and set them on the road to their current economic success. All the while telling the masses who had been brainwashed by the Cult of Mao that he was a Maoist and he venerated the Great Leader.

That's kind of how you have to do it when you are dealing with a cult.

And his tomb directly opposite and the Govt buildings to the left as you look at the picture. In amongst all the designer shops though Billy there are lots of markets selling lots of rip off clothing shoes jewelry and electronics all fake but if you barter hard with them you can get some real bargains

No never been to China. I should have gone in 2008 but it was when the Buddhist monks were campaigning over human rights abuses prior to the Olympics and they closed the border.

Never been to Russia either. I applied for a visa in the 1980's (when it was the USSR) but they turned me down for a visa - I think it was the campaigning I did for Amnesty International.

I have been to Cambodia though. I was taken to Choeung Ek memorial and then the Phnom Pen Killing Fields Museum by this guide who stopped at a particular memorial who pointed to two portraits and said - those are my parents.

Been to Israel as well - worked there in fact for a few months alongside some Arab workers. It was just after an intafada and things were very twitchy - they kept shutting the border and stopping them coming to work. The Jewish chap I was working for insisted on paying his workers even though they weren't working, one of the few people in the village to do so.

All the sort of things that Corbyn campaigned for throughout his career.

Inspiration, idealism and radicalism - Tom Paine, Fergus O'Connor, Keir Hardie, Nye Bevan - now Keir Starmer is promising to go on that list

whats your point?

[wilts rover]

I'm not politicking.

I'm entirely supporting the Govt's actions.

It's a great shame that the same thing didn't happen from the Opposition during the last national crisis.

There is a huge difference between politicking and pointing out inconsistencies in political stances.

Is this correct? My memory is that the opposition supported Brown bailing out the banks - and his G20 leadership - it was the fallout afterwards when they began 'politcking'.

As I am sure will this opposition.

Like - why has the government given £10k to each MP already on £80k to work from home - whilst refusing to raise SSP or UC for unemployed workers and leaving nurses to fight a deadly virus wearing bin bags?

There will be time for that afterwards.

[Ldr]

Not quite as you put it Wilts

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-52231592

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

I'm genuinely impressed by your efforts. Honestly.

But it doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about.

My point was, don't pay attention to Starmer's words on Corbyn and Corbynism. Pay attention to what he does.

Like clearing out almost the entire Project Corbyn team from the Shadow Cabinet, and replacing them with what looks like a much more dynamic, competent and broadly based left wing set.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm not politicking.

I'm entirely supporting the Govt's actions.

It's a great shame that the same thing didn't happen from the Opposition during the last national crisis.

There is a huge difference between politicking and pointing out inconsistencies in political stances.

Is this correct? My memory is that the opposition supported Brown bailing out the banks - and his G20 leadership - it was the fallout afterwards when they began 'politcking'.

As I am sure will this opposition.

Like - why has the government given £10k to each MP already on £80k to work from home - whilst refusing to raise SSP or UC for unemployed workers and leaving nurses to fight a deadly virus wearing bin bags?

There will be time for that afterwards.

I wasn't talking about bailing out the banks. I meant running very large deficits as a textbook counter-cyclical macroeconomic response to a severe recession.

That is what economics students are taught on Day 1 of Macroeconomics 101 at University. Cameron got a first in PPE from Oxford and he will have known that. But it didn't stop him calling Brown a Defecit Denier and spouting that bullshit about the nation maxing out its credit card.

THAT is the hypocrisy I'm talking about and it has no equivalent in the Left in the current crisis.

[Ldr]

BST what you hoping to achieve by obsessing on this?

[wilts rover]

Yes, it was a shame to see Angela Rayner, Annalise Dodds and Rebecca Long-Bailey not being given senior positions - but there you go.

I would have liked to have seen Lisa Nandy as HS & Hilary Benn in it, but I have no issues with the SC.

My point is that Corbyn has changed the Labour Party and I fully expect Starmer to keep those changes - based on what he says as he hasn't been in position long enough to judge on what he does.

He will do things in his own way and in his own style - and face the same hostility form the right-wing press - just because he is the leader of the Labour Party.

[drfchound]

The supporters of the two major parties will always look for something to attack each other with, as will the MPs of either side.
It is what they do and always will do.
Not really surprising to me.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

Long-Bailey I will give you.

The other two...I think you are confusing "being in a Corbyn Cabinet" with "Being a supporter of Corbyn".

I'm thinking of the central team which has been jettisoned. McDonnell, Abbott, Burgon, Lavery, McDonald.

And I doubt we'll be seeing the 4Ms in Starmer's circle of advisers, thank the Lord. Hopefully, Starmer will surround himself with people whose first aim is trying to win the next election, rather than enforcing ideological purity.

[BillyStubbsTears]

If something is unsustainable or impossible then surely if you later implement it then you have to admit that your previous stance was incorrect or you didn't allow for all eventualities.
This is surely the case whoever is in charge?

This.

Because if you just "meh" when this sort of thing happens, you are effectively giving up on holding political parties to account for their actions.

Democracy works by people taking note of what politicians say they believe in, comparing it to what they do and deciding whether they can trust them. Break that chain and democracy is dead.

[BillyStubbsTears]

By the way, when I was talking about Corbyn Cult members earlier, this is the sort of person I had in mind.

https://twitter.com/BenJolly9/status/1247920885845110785

Starmer eh? Worra turncoat t**t. Actually going and talking to people who didn't vote Labour last year!

And someone else down the thread says (despairingly) that Starmer will be Blair No.2. Worra f**king disaster eh, if he actually wins an election!

[BigH]

Wilts.

I'm genuinely impressed by your efforts. Honestly.

But it doesn't really have anything to do with what I was talking about.

My point was, don't pay attention to Starmer's words on Corbyn and Corbynism. Pay attention to what he does.

Like clearing out almost the entire Project Corbyn team from the Shadow Cabinet, and replacing them with what looks like a much more dynamic, competent and broadly based left wing set.

And that petrifying tw*t Milne has gone too.

It's happening.

[Sprotyrover]

Those that voted for this rabble are too embarrassed to reply bst

Sydders have you got a right to vote in Uk Elections.

[SydneyRover]

Those that voted for this rabble are too embarrassed to reply bst

Sydders have you got a right to vote in Uk Elections.

Sprot, you replied, does that make you rabble?

[Sprotyrover]

Those that voted for this rabble are too embarrassed to reply bst

Sydders have you got a right to vote in Uk Elections.

Sprot, you replied, does that make you rabble?

You never answered the question? Have you got a Uk vote?

[SydneyRover]

Is this going to be one of those elegiblity questions Sprot where forum members have to say if they can see the keepmoat from their kitchen window, where their parents were born, how long they have been fans, if they stand for the queen etc, do I need a lawyer, can I make a phone call? 

[Filo]

A British citizen can register as an overseas voter

[DonnyOsmond]

Those that voted for this rabble are too embarrassed to reply bst

Sydders have you got a right to vote in Uk Elections.

Are you suggesting that means he can't have an opinion on the matter?

[Sprotyrover]

I just wonder why he comes on here trolling Politics when he lives in OZ and told peeps at the back of the South stand that he was fed up of the country, I don't mind him having a say on the team but as he bogged off for a better life over a decade ago He needs to find an Aussie Forum to spout his Political views on!

[Hounslowrover]

So Sproty we'd better not discuss politics in the USA or anywhere else then