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There's also a whispered sub-text. "What's that Mrs May? You say we can't come to any agreement on the Big Three issues? Because if you give any ground whatsoever, it'll tear apart the Tory party? Oh dear! That's a shame isn't it? We thought the whole idea of the Referendum was to sort out this split in your Tory Party. Hey! Maybe you should call a General Election and get a strong mandate in Parliament to face down your mad right wing? What's that? You tried it and you utterly f**ked it up by being unable to function like an adult in public? Oh dear!"What's that Mrs May? You want us to forget about those three issues for now, and start talking about how WE are going to help YOU? That's a good one Mrs May. You British and your sense of humour! Ha-ha-ha-ha!"
FiloNo. What the EU is saying is: "We have a responsibility to 450million people. YOUR choice to leave is potentially going to have some very, very seriously negative consequences for some of those. Leaving is YOUR choice, not ours. If there are seriously negative consequences for you Brits, then we're very sorry about that. Maybe you should have considered that before you voted to leave. Now, let's sort out how we are going to mitigate the worst outcomes for the EU citizens. And then we'll be perfectly happy to talk about how to help your economy not fall off a cliff in 16 months time."Is that unreasonable? I think it's perfectly reasonable.If my neighbour decided to smash all his windows, chuck the glass over the hedge, then ask me to help him replace his windows, I think I'd be within my rights to ask him to sort out the mess in my garden first. If he complained that he hadn't realised how cold he was going to be in the winter, and I was being unfair, I doubt I'd change my stance.
IdlerSo you've not seen Macron proposing a multi-grouping for Europe? A well-integrated inner core set of countries, with others around the periphery opting out of various aspects?Why care what Juncker says? He's utterly irrelevant. Filo. Yes. Exactly. So they are no negotiating in good faith. So what do you expect the EU to do? Negotiate in their terms?
When the EU talk about the UK paying the divorce bill, maybe they should take a leaf out of their own bookhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41774817
$600 quid this year and things have hardly started, how much next year and the next..............lhttps://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/01/brexit-vote-cost-niesr-economic-growth
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/03/no-deal-brexit-could-add-930-a-year-to-uk-shopping-bills-say-expertsThe evidence is mounting daily and coming from normally very sober conservative sources and unless the people of Britain have their say and demand another vote.......................
Quote from: SydneyRover on November 03, 2017, 10:41:52 pmhttps://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/nov/03/no-deal-brexit-could-add-930-a-year-to-uk-shopping-bills-say-expertsThe evidence is mounting daily and coming from normally very sober conservative sources and unless the people of Britain have their say and demand another vote.......................Is there any conservatives or Labour or whoever for that matter going to be left in Parliment after the next week or so
SydneyThing is, none of those arguments are getting through. We're in an age of entrenched opinions. No-one wants to listen to information which suggests that they might be wrong. We're all guilty of it. In that sense, Michael Gove almost hit the nail on the head when he said that people had had enough of listening to experts. What he really should have said was that people had hade ouch oflistening to experts who challenge their deep-seated beliefs. On this subject, you have to go a long, long way to find an expert economist who things there's anything positive to come out of Brexit. We're already seeing the initial negative effects. Weaker pound. Higher inflation. Weaker economic growth. Most economists aren't predicting a sudden cliff-edge collapse because of Brexit. Instead, they are predicting a long, slow reduction in economic performance relative to the rest of Europe and the World. That will hurt hugely over time. If our GDP growth drops by 1% per year (which is the general average prediction) then by the late 2030s, we'll be £2-3trn poorer than we should have been. That's a lot of doctors and hospitals and teachers and schools and roads and railways. Moreto theooint, that sort of long, slow decline would put us on a much lower economic standard than currently, where, person for person, we are roughly level with Japan, Germany, France, USA, Canada etc. We won't be in their league in 20 years time if those prijections are right. We'll have taken our country back, but it will be a significantly weaker and poorer country. But there's enough people who are prepared to ignore those predictions. Prepared to ignore experts who say things that make them uncomfortable.
Still, in a recent poll, 40% of pensioners who voted Leave said they would do so again. even if it resulted in a family member losing their job.
WolfRemember the context of the question. What would you vote if you knew that leaving the EU would result in a family member losing their job. That's the point. If people KNOW that leaving the EU wil be seriously detrimental to the economy, even the majority of pensioner Leavers would change their mind (although I do wonder what is in the heads of that 40%...)The point is that there's been enough muddying of the waters for a lot of the Leave supporters to be able to convince themselves that the economy will be alright. In poll after poll, a majority of Leave supporters still think that the economy will get better or stay the same after Brexit. That opinion is shared by only about 1 economist in 10.