Brexit Negotiations

[Filo]

Regardless of which way anyone voted I get the feeling that the negotiations are a farce, I feel the EU negotiating team are trying to be very obstructive (probably from instructiins from France and Germany). Every week we get negative comments from the lead negotiator regarding no progress being made

[not on facebook]

I have allways had that impression due to fact that I have only ever seen negative comments from whatever EU politician.

I don't know if our PM will do a good job or not throu the brexit issues,but at least she talks  a plus plus view at times.

Many times i hear what that junker has to say and I get a childish impression from him ,which is ok if your a piss head but not when your in his office of work.

[Filo]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well

[Glyn_Wigley]

The sooner that people start to see past the lie they were fed (and the expectations it generated) that the EU would fall over themselves to give us what we wanted because it was in their own best interests to do so the better. It was never the case and it still isn't.

[not on facebook]

Suppose it was a massive cock up when the U.K. Joined the eu back in 1974 I think it was ,that there was no blue print to work off should the U.K. or any other country want to leave the eu.

I get the impression that the European Union are making it up as they go along sometimes .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo

The EU negotiators are not being obstructive. They have simply set three very clear and obvious Big Points which need to be dealt with as priorities before we can get down to discussing things like trade relations.

The points are:
1) Irish border.
2) Money that we legally owe to the EU for agreements that we have already signed up to.
3) Rights of EU citizens who are domicilled in the UK, and UK citizens domicilled in the EU.

These are matters of fundamental principle and have to take priority over anything else. The UK might wish to park them (because they are f**king hard to solve) and get on with talking about things that will benefit us. But the EU cannot possibly accept that. They have a responsibility to prioritise ensuring that our decision doesn't rebound spectacularly onto the EU budget, the Irish border and EU citizens who, in good faith, set up their families in the UK.

The EU negotiators are not being slippery here, or changing the terms. They've been entirely consistent in this all the way through. And these three points were spelled out clearly as major issues by many anti-Brexiters before the referendum.

Johnson and Gove told us that "it wasn't beyond the wit of man" to figure out what to do about the Irish border. Well they've had nearly 16 months to use their wit and there is still nothing remotely like a realistic plan from the UK Govt.

And that's the issue. The Govt has no rational plans for how to address any of these issues. The problem is that the Tory party has nothing to negotiate with. There's no answer to the Ireland problem that doesn't lead to a potential catastrophe. They can't be seen to accept a (fair) bill from Europe for what they themselves signed up to, because that would look weak. And they can't allow the ECJ to have any say in the rights of EU citizens in the UK, post-Brexit, because they've spent 20 years painting the ECJ as the enemy.

It's a right f**king mess. What's killing the talks is the fact that the Govt's aim is not sorting out the talks. Its priority is avoiding dealing with those three points because the choice is between solutions that don't work and solutions that the Tory party won't accept. So the real priority is prevaricating and stopping the Tory party from descending into civil war. Meantime, we charging at full speed towards a No Agreement Brexit. Then you'll see what a disaster you've voted for.

[IDM]

Something I have been saying both before and after the vote, is that no one knew what Brexit actually means in detail, hence no one knew what they were voting for when voting to leave.

Had the key exit points been defined and approved by the government before the vote, the result may not have been different but it would have made much more sense.

[wilts rover]

One of the main reasons people said they voted to leave was to take back sovereignty from the huge bureaucratic entity with its complex maze of laws that is the EU. So why are they now surprised that it is acting like a complex bureaucratic entity - because that's what it is!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here you go by the way. This is a very straightforward way of getting a long way towards sorting out the Irish border issue.

http://www.irisheconomy.ie/index.php/2017/10/07/what-could-the-uk-say-on-the-border-before-getting-to-the-second-stage/

I wonder why the Govt won't do it?

[BillyStubbsTears]

No Wilts. It's not acting like that at all in this situation.

The EU has set out perfectly clear and well-defined issues on which the negotiations hang. They have said, "YOU have chosen to leave. The result of your choice is, potentially, some very seriously negative consequences for EU citizens. If you want to start talking about our future relationship, we need some indication that you are serious about minimising these negative impacts."

There's no Byzantine manoeuvring going on. No bureaucratic intrigue. They are just saying, "Now you've had your emotional spasm, let's start talking like grown-ups about the consequences."

But there's been nothing of any substance from the Govt for 16 months on how to deal with those consequences. Because this Govt is stuck on the horns of a dilemma. Be sensible in the discussions and tear the Tory party apart. Or appease the Tory party and give the EU nothing. So it's the UK negotiators who are playing games. Threatening that we'll stop collaborating on security issues. Threatening that we'll be prepared to leave with no deal. Given that intransigence andbad faith, why should the EU fall over itself to start talking about the things that WE want to discuss?

[MachoMadness]

Thing is, besides the odd smarmy comment in the press (which, given the  amount of time their reps have been sat at a table with David Davis and co, is an admirably restrained response), the EU haven't been overly obstructive at all. The conditions of leaving have always been the same. Why should the EU budge on their red lines - they've been consistent the whole time. It's our government who've had more positions that the kama sutra. The EU said they wouldn't budge, and now they aren't budging. Simple really.

Before the vote, this was seen as fearmongering. Now it's seen as the EU obstructing our glorious red white and blue Brexit. When we get shafted in the deal a few years down the line I'm sure the government will spin it as that nasty anti-British Juncker and co trying to hold us down, but it won't be true then either.

Doesn't help that our Govt negotiating team would probably end up paying full price for a DFS sofa, to quote Frankie Boyle, but Brexit was always going to be this way regardless of who was sat at the table.

There's lots about the EU to dislike but they can't be blamed for this shitshow.

[hoolahoop]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well

Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?

At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team,  who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.

Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
 I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads   

[Glyn_Wigley]

It's a right f**king mess. What's killing the talks is the fact that the Govt's aim is not sorting out the talks. Its priority is avoiding dealing with those three points because the choice is between solutions that don't work and solutions that the Tory party won't accept. So the real priority is prevaricating and stopping the Tory party from descending into civil war. Meantime, we charging at full speed towards a No Agreement Brexit. Then you'll see what a disaster you've voted for.

And that is the only reason why nobody who wants to take Theresa May's job will knife her in the back now - they want her to stay there and take all the blame for Brexit so they can walk into the job with clean hands afterwards. In the meantime, we're stuck with a useless lame duck PM in charge of what are laughably called negotiations.

[Filo]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well

Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?

At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team,  who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.

Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
 I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads   

Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is

[wilts rover]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well

Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?

At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team,  who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.

Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
 I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads   

Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is

Labeling someone a spolit brat for quoting what the Brexit campaign said reinforces Filo's point. Which I think is the first time ever I have been labelled on the same side as Filo in anything to do with the EU. So yes that is truly a pathetic post Hoola and only one person is screaming.

In fact Billy and Macho posts above only reinforce my point about how bureaucratic and inflexible the EU is, because it has to be to run at all.

Davis was on tv a couple of weeks ago saying why the talks were stalled and nothing was being agreed 'Oh dont worry, its all because of the German elections, once they are out the way, it will all be fine'. And I thought 'Oh yeah'. Then he was on a couple of weeks later saying 'Don't worry, once Mrs May has given her speech in Florence, it will all be fine'. 'Oh yeah'. Barnier has his role and remit which are the discussions around the table - Davis seems to be looking for some magic fairy with some magic words to make him change his mind.

And this should be the easy bit. We haven't got onto the 'cake and eat it' discussions yet.

[glosterred]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.

Let's not forget, De Gaulle didn't want Britain to joined the EEC so why would they show us any gratitude?

[Filo]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.

Let's not forget, De Gaulle didn't want Britain to joined the EEC so why would they show us any gratitude?

Which reinforces my point, the French were quick to forget what the UK sacrificed for their freedom

[Dagenham Rover]

Perhaps instead of treating it as a long painful divorce requiring lots of negotiations and lawyers making a
 fortune, we ought to treat it as a one night stand  grab a taxi and feck off in the middle of the night, gone before they realised 

[Glyn_Wigley]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.

Let's not forget, De Gaulle didn't want Britain to joined the EEC so why would they show us any gratitude?

Which reinforces my point, the French were quick to forget what the UK sacrificed for their freedom

Almost as quickly as forgetting what the Free French Forces and Free French Navy sacrificed fighting on the British side all over the world, eh?

[Filo]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.

Let's not forget, De Gaulle didn't want Britain to joined the EEC so why would they show us any gratitude?

Which reinforces my point, the French were quick to forget what the UK sacrificed for their freedom

Almost as quickly as forgetting what the Free French Forces and Free French Navy sacrificed fighting on the British side all over the world, eh?

Without the UK the free french would n't have been free very long

[Glyn_Wigley]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to.

Let's not forget, De Gaulle didn't want Britain to joined the EEC so why would they show us any gratitude?

Which reinforces my point, the French were quick to forget what the UK sacrificed for their freedom

Almost as quickly as forgetting what the Free French Forces and Free French Navy sacrificed fighting on the British side all over the world, eh?

Without the UK the free french would n't have been free very long

Without the French, Poles, Belgians, Dutch, Czechs, Canadians, Indians, Australians, etc., neither would we. What's our debt of gratitude?

[MachoMadness]

Filo mate, if your argument for Brexit boils down to "two world wars and one world cup" then you should probably just pack in.

[hoolahoop]

Filo mate, if your argument for Brexit boils down to "two world wars and one world cup" then you should probably just pack in.

Unfortunately that is the xenophobic argument used by far too many people .

[hoolahoop]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well

Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?

At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team,  who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.

Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
 I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads   

Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is

Don't be ridiculous man , I'm calling you pathetic not because you disagree with my views or me with yours but using the WW11 argument constantly. I have noto asserted that we that  the French should show any gratitude.
What has the bloody WW2 got to do with this ? Every nation died winning that war , most of all the Russians and it was 80 years ago .

It's that very fact that matters and my only  view on it bearing in mind these are facts is you using them to justify your argument somehow- they are not relevant to the question in hand.

[Filo]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well

Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?

At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team,  who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.

Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
 I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads   

Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is

Don't be ridiculous man , I'm calling you pathetic not because you disagree with my views or me with yours but using the WW11 argument constantly. I have noto asserted that we that  the French should show any gratitude.
What has the bloody WW2 got to do with this ? Every nation died winning that war , most of all the Russians and it was 80 years ago .

It's that very fact that matters and my only  view on it bearing in mind these are facts is you using them to justify your argument somehow- they are not relevant to the question in hand.

If that were the case you would have typed pathetic argument, not pathetic man

[Glyn_Wigley]

I know it's harping back a lot of years, but I think France forgets the debt of gratitude it owes to the UK in liberating them from a Country they now cosy up to. And also Germany, when insisting we pay our divorce bill should remeber that they never fully repaid their war debts, especially to Greece, who they screwed over fairly recently as well

Jesus the " debt of gratitude " argument - Filo is really the best argument you can come up with . Pathetic man, I suppose the Poles could make that same argument regarding their post Brexit vilification using the ' is that all the thanks we get for our help in winning the battle of Britain and kick-starting your industry during and after WW2 ' argument ?

At least try not to sound so xenophobic !!
You and wilts sound like two spoilt brats that have been firmly told they can't have those sweets but still keep screaming in the hope that the parent changes it's mind.
The only obstruction I can see is that coming from the British team,  who can't have their cake and eat it. Stop reading the alt Right press ffs it's stopping you from seeing the truth in this whole sad affair.

Incidentally we did NOT lose sovereignty otherwise you would never had this ridiculous vote in the first place .
 I understand that this wasn't brought up by you in the thread but seems to be consistently raised by Brexiters on these threads   

Labeling someone pathetic for not agreeing with your views rather shows who the pathetic one is

Don't be ridiculous man , I'm calling you pathetic not because you disagree with my views or me with yours but using the WW11 argument constantly. I have noto asserted that we that  the French should show any gratitude.
What has the bloody WW2 got to do with this ? Every nation died winning that war , most of all the Russians and it was 80 years ago .

It's that very fact that matters and my only  view on it bearing in mind these are facts is you using them to justify your argument somehow- they are not relevant to the question in hand.

If that were the case you would have typed pathetic argument, not pathetic man

I think he should have put 'It's' before 'pathetic'.

[rtid88]

Brilliant points made my BST, great to see him contributing again. Every1 else as usual just need to put their handbags away.

[idler]

When we voted out Junker said that there would be major changes to the EU meaning he obviously saw deficiencies in the set up.
The other week he stated aims to make the EU even more of a federal state which is what most Brexiters voted against. I suppose if we had voted remain these measures might have been mentioned even earlier.

[Donnywolf]

I KNOW this can never happen (and will probably open another can of worms) BUT if it were possible to ask this question of all today's electorate ....

..... do you wish to continue with an exit from the EU having seen all what has unfolded since the original vote was held and where we are currently ?

I reckon personally that it would be much higher that the original "Remain" vote was but as I say that is just my own very humble opinion ! It cant happen !

I cant also imagine what the News would have been talking about if we had voted Remain in the Referendum. Unless of course it was the infighting amongst the "losing" Politicians who were pressing for a second Referendum having been at it since we joined the Common Market

[bobjimwilly]

Exactly that DW - now the pro's and con's are black and white, and the facts are that we will still be under most EU rules for years even after Brexit and it's going to cost us millions (not save us millions), there should be another referendum. And it doesn't have to be drawn out; do it next month!