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WiltsThat's all correct. Of course, that would leave us less well off and without a say in either the SM or CU. So it's a considerably worse situation than the status quo. But yes, much better than the May deal or no deal.
Quote from: drfchound on November 14, 2018, 04:55:46 pmIs there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.
Is there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?
Quote from: wilts rover on November 14, 2018, 06:07:57 pmQuote from: drfchound on November 14, 2018, 04:55:46 pmIs there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.Fair point
The more I’m seeing and reading about this the more I think we should go back to the EU and say “Even though the majority of us wanted leave and many of us don’t like you very much, we can’t get our house in order never mind prise ourselves away from you, so here’s this years £13 Billion, can we come back in please?”
GlynMy bet. It will not reach that far. Either the Cabinet refuses to agree to the deal tonight, or the Brexit wing of the Tory party launches a no-confidence move against May.
Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 14, 2018, 07:03:21 pmThe more I’m seeing and reading about this the more I think we should go back to the EU and say “Even though the majority of us wanted leave and many of us don’t like you very much, we can’t get our house in order never mind prise ourselves away from you, so here’s this years £13 Billion, can we come back in please?”I'm not sure that most of us don't like Europeans. There are lots of Brits that I dislike more than our EU cousins.
Hope it ends as no Brexit then.
Quote from: wilts rover on November 14, 2018, 06:07:57 pmQuote from: drfchound on November 14, 2018, 04:55:46 pmIs there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 14, 2018, 06:42:10 pmQuote from: wilts rover on November 14, 2018, 06:07:57 pmQuote from: drfchound on November 14, 2018, 04:55:46 pmIs there a case to say that a Labour government would have been capable of delivering a positive Brexit deal?Keir Starmer has said (several times) that the deal he has been proposing, staying in the CU and close to the SM, has been received positively by people he has spoken to in the EU. Presumably he is speaking the truth so presumably he could deliver a deal based on that.Fair point Rumours have it that's what may has agreed. Assume labour will vote for it then?It's the big mess we all expected. Are many of these Tories etc disagreeing with the position or lions sensing a prey? Some of them are a joke frankly.
No they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory.
And there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs.
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 14, 2018, 09:10:03 pmNo they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory. Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this.
Quote from: Boomstick on November 14, 2018, 09:26:32 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 14, 2018, 09:10:03 pmNo they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory. Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this. You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.
You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.
To hear of people who voted to leave the EU, and ideally still want to, so resigned to the fact that real change is not possible in Britain and would now vote differently (or not at all), I think, paints a quite depressing picture of where British politics is at. And this is not in any way a criticism of people who have come to hold that view.So if there's any lesson to be learnt from the past two years it's that even on the rare occasion that you are presented with and vote for significant change, voting is ultimately pointless if the political class does not already support it. This increasingly out-of-touch, estranged political class are simply unwilling (or incapable) to deliver and will conspire to change as little as they can get away with. Those who already thought that voting was pointless and that politicians don't represent them yet turned out to vote for Brexit in the hope of being heard for once have ultimately been proven right.This ought to concern everyone who isn't a cynical opportunist, regardless of Brexit stance.During the last general election both parties committed to leaving the single market and customs union as they couldn't get away with anything less. It didn't take them long to ditch those commitments.It seems like the current political system is not fit for purpose anymore. Absolute shite the lot of them.
Quote from: RedJ on November 14, 2018, 09:31:49 pmQuote from: Boomstick on November 14, 2018, 09:26:32 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 14, 2018, 09:10:03 pmNo they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory. Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this. You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is. Simple .
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 14, 2018, 09:11:18 pmAnd there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs. If it's no deal, or no brexit. It will be no deal . simple.
Quote from: Boomstick on November 14, 2018, 09:30:14 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 14, 2018, 09:11:18 pmAnd there will not be a No Deal outcome. Because that would be e onomic suicide, and us supported by only about 1/4 of the population, and only about 1 in 10 MPs. If it's no deal, or no brexit. It will be no deal . simple. That would be a thoroughly democratic outcome. Go for a solution that only about 1/4 of the population supports.Will of the People, eh?
Quote from: Boomstick on November 14, 2018, 09:37:38 pmQuote from: RedJ on November 14, 2018, 09:31:49 pmQuote from: Boomstick on November 14, 2018, 09:26:32 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 14, 2018, 09:10:03 pmNo they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory. Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this. You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is. Simple . The government have no commitment to carry out anything based on an advisory referendum.Arguably, they should, but they have no commitment, no obligation, to do so. Parliament can act of its own accord if it so wishes. Isn't it Parliamentary sovereignty that the Brexiteers were so keen on getting back?
Quote from: RedJ on November 14, 2018, 10:33:17 pmQuote from: Boomstick on November 14, 2018, 09:37:38 pmQuote from: RedJ on November 14, 2018, 09:31:49 pmQuote from: Boomstick on November 14, 2018, 09:26:32 pmQuote from: BillyStubbsTears on November 14, 2018, 09:10:03 pmNo they don't. We live in a Parliamentary democracy. Parliament is sovereign. Referendums are advisory. Yes they do, the referendum showed the will of the people, it's the goverments duty to uphold this. You clearly have no understanding of how British politics actually works.The election manifesto had a promise to hold a referendum, they kept this promise.The public voted leave, the government have a commitment to carry it out.They tried getting favourable terms, they cant. So no deal it is. Simple . The government have no commitment to carry out anything based on an advisory referendum.Arguably, they should, but they have no commitment, no obligation, to do so. Parliament can act of its own accord if it so wishes. Isn't it Parliamentary sovereignty that the Brexiteers were so keen on getting back? I feel that referendums should be used in an advisory context only. However, in the Goverments leaflet sent to all households prior to the vote, the following text was included:“This is your decision. The Government will implement what you decide.”Seems quite clear to me. No mention of an advisory referendum.