Brexit Benefits Log

[BillyStubbsTears]

Roll up. We've got another BB Cliche Bingo game underway.

[drfchound]

Bail out?

[Bentley Bullet]

We? is that the Royal We?

[belton rover]

You just can't help it can you?

That is YOUR INTERPRETATION of what he says. Nowhere does he say anything remotely like that. You accuse him of changing his beliefs BECAUSE Labour lost. Maybe he did. Maybe he is lying through his teeth in that article in saying that many things had changed in the "years before" 1983 to change his mind. But you cannot objectively read that article and even begin to suggest that his words support that opinion.

Well, clearly YOU can and have done. I'm just pointing out the error of that.

I see. So the only way you’ll accept that Kinnock became pro EU for political success is if Kinnock says ‘I became pro EU for political success’?

We can assume then that you believe OJ Simpson is innocent and God told Peter Sutcliffe to murder 13 women.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

No that's absolutely not what I'm saying.

Please read what I wrote, rather than put words in my mouth.

I'm saying you are perfectly at liberty to believe what you want, but there is nothing in that article to support what you seem to believe. So I don't know why a) you posted it and b) you then misrepresented the content.

For what it's worth, Kinnock's claim to have been reflecting for years does tally somewhat with the historical record. He'd been a far left firebrand as a (very young) MP in the early 70s. But he had been moving away from those positions as he aged. By 1981, he was held responsible by the Bennite wing of the party for organising to prevent (the very anti-EU) Tony Benn winning the Deputy Leadership against (the very pro-EU) Dennis Healy. If you want my take, I think he was genuine in his conversion, and used the shock of the 1983 result to force through a change of policy that probably wouldn't have been possible in other circumstances.

But that's just my opinion.

[BillyStubbsTears]

PS. Many in the centre-Left went through that conversion by the way. Myself included. Because the Bennite description of the EEC as a club to enable the worst excesses of Capitalism didn't square with the facts we saw - an EEC/EU that worked successfully to share out wealth, support economically disadvantaged regions and enshrine workers' rights.

As a final aside, there is an odd side to this little discussion. BB has told us for years that the Remain supporters should accept the result and move on. You, Belton, have said regularly that everyone should try to make the best if the situation for Britain. Kinnock is probably the highest profile politician who accepted the defeat in 1975 and worked to try to make the best of our position after that vote. And you both call him a hypocrite who changed his mind for party and personal game.

Looks like there's actually no pleasing you two on this issue. Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[belton rover]

Billy. That whole article is Kinnock reflecting on that period of is life. Even in a one sided, biased piece, he clearly states that things had to change for Labour after ‘83 and he chose to publicly change his stance on the EU as part of that change. IT IS OF MY OPINION (I hate using capitals, as it’s a cheap shot, but sometimes there’s no other way) that first and foremost, his decision to switch sides was political. I have also formed the opinion that if he thought it was in his and Labour’s best interests to continue to be anti EU then he would. As would 99% of all politicians.

You really need to make your mind up about how language works. OF COURSE there are different interpretations to many things. Pretty much any article or link that has ever been put on here can be interpreted different ways. You are an expert at interpreting such things to suit your point of view, just as you are doing here.

But for crying out loud, stop telling me, every single time I offer an interpretation that is different, but no less valid as yours, that I am misrepresenting.

It really is the weakest, yet most arrogant of arguments.

Edit: Another favourite phrase of yours is ‘don’t put words into my mouth’. That can only work both ways - I never called Kinnock a hypocrite.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

You said: "It appears he didn’t believe in it (the EU) until Labour lost the election in 1983." And you posted an article in which he said the very opposite of that. That's the point I'm taking issue with you over. Like I've said, you are totally free to believe whatever you want. But if you back up that belief with "evidence" that contradicts it, then say "of course it contradicts it" then it's a bit hard to engage with you on the issue.

Regarding "hypocrisy", my dictionary defines it as "feigning to be what one is not; concealment of true character or belief.

You said:
"Fancy making such a huge decision, affecting millions of peoples lives, simply for political and personal power."

If that isn't accusing someone of hypocrisy then words have lost their meaning.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. That being the case, If only you would take a leaf out of Kinnock's book in 1975 and accept the 2016 result and move on there would be no need for me to compare claims of Farage's dodgy EU connections to those of Kinnocks.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

I've entirely accepted the result. It's a fact. What I won't do is change my mind that it is a good thing for Britain, until, like Kinnock, I see evidence to demonstrate that.

[belton rover]

Billy.

1. He didn’t say the opposite of that.

2. Your dictionary definition and my comment do not link to suggest hypocrisy at all.

I said he made a huge decision affecting millions for his own gain.

That’s not being a hypocrite, it’s being an incredibly selfish person.
There’s no point in having a dictionary if you don’t understand what words mean AFTER you’ve read the definitions.

Don’t put misinterpreted dictionary definitions into my mouth.

[belton rover]

Roll up. We've got another BB Cliche Bingo game underway.

You’re getting your metaphors mixed up.
You mean ‘eyes down’ for cliche bingo, not ‘roll up’.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

You said Kinnock's change of policy was "simply" (your word) for party and political gain. That precludes the possiblity that he believed membership of the EEC was in the interests of the nation and the people. But he campaigned vigorously on it actually being for the benefit of the nation and the people and he explains the reasons for that change of policy in the very link you posted.

If you are saying he had been on a journey that had led him honestly to change his mind on membership of the EEC being in the interests of the nation and the people, all you need to do is say it clearlyband I'll be happy to admit I misrepresented what you meant and withdraw it.

If you don't believe he honestly thought that, you are accusing him of being a hypocrite.

Your call.

[belton rover]

Billy.
You’re playing with semantics.
You’re misrepresenting me.
You’re putting words in my mouth.
You’re arguing about arguing
You’re accusing me of acting in bad faith

All because I think, and I have given evidence of, Neil Kinnock (who seems to be some kind of political god to you) acted like most politicians would: making sacrifices for their own party and for their own political gain.

Now, I don’t actually give a shit about any of those things you accuse me of, but people in glass houses, and all that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.
Where on earth do you get your conclusion from that Kinnock is some sort of political god to me?

Go back through this thread and ask yourself what I have said that has warranted such a reaction.

[belton rover]

The bit where you asked ‘In what way did Kinnock not believe in the EU?’, and I then gave my opinion with a link to support it, in which you blindly dismissed any suggestion that he acted in his own, selfish best interests, despite compelling evidence.

As if he were a god.
Just my opinion, of course.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Belton.

Serious advice. You need to calm down a bit.

1) My original post was aimed at BB. GO back and have a look at the context of it.
2) My whole point has been that you absolutely did NOT give any evidence to support your assertion. In fact you ignored a whole swathe of argument in the very link you posted which flatly contradicted your assertion.
3) I didn't "Blindly dismiss" anything. I said you were perfectly at liberty to hold that opinion, but that that was all it was. I said, on balance, given other evidence (such as Kinnock's work to cripple Benn's efforts to take over the party Deputy leadership in 1981, ensuring that the pro-EU Healy stayed in post) that I was inclined to believe that Kinnock had been on a long journey of changing opinion, and that the shock of the 1983 result was the opportunity to get the party to change policy. I also said that was only my opinion.
4) Concluding from all that that Kinnock is some sort of political god to me is bizarre and is why I say I think you need to calm down a bit. For what it's worth, I think Kinnock did a massively important job of facing down those who nearly destroyed the Labour party in the 1980s, but i don;t think he was a very good politician at taking on the Tories. Too often he let his heart run away with him when he needed to be controlled. Thatcher generally tied him in knots.

Going back to point 1, this whole discussion was about whether it was reasonable to compare Kinnock taking on the job of EU Commissioner (for which he was nominated by John Major) and Farage being bankrolled by a mate and paid by the EU for a job he never did. It's gone a hell of a long way round the houses since then.

[selby]

  Farage had no large political party behind him, and took on the whole of Europe's Political elite and beat them up. The most influential British Politician since Atlee and Churchill.
  In comparison Kinnock is nothing but a leech living off the backs of the working class in the UK, an absolute nobody.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.
He more than made up for his lack of party by securing funding from elsewhere.

Like fiddling expenses on an industrial scale at the EU Parliament. Like receiving the biggest ever political donation in UK history from a small businessman who has steadfastly refused to show where the money came from, but who DID admit lying to cover up how often he had meetings with the Russian ambassador.

[belton rover]

Belton.

Serious advice. You need to calm down a bit.

1) My original post was aimed at BB. GO back and have a look at the context of it.
2) My whole point has been that you absolutely did NOT give any evidence to support your assertion. In fact you ignored a whole swathe of argument in the very link you posted which flatly contradicted your assertion.
3) I didn't "Blindly dismiss" anything. I said you were perfectly at liberty to hold that opinion, but that that was all it was. I said, on balance, given other evidence (such as Kinnock's work to cripple Benn's efforts to take over the party Deputy leadership in 1981, ensuring that the pro-EU Healy stayed in post) that I was inclined to believe that Kinnock had been on a long journey of changing opinion, and that the shock of the 1983 result was the opportunity to get the party to change policy. I also said that was only my opinion.
4) Concluding from all that that Kinnock is some sort of political god to me is bizarre and is why I say I think you need to calm down a bit. For what it's worth, I think Kinnock did a massively important job of facing down those who nearly destroyed the Labour party in the 1980s, but i don;t think he was a very good politician at taking on the Tories. Too often he let his heart run away with him when he needed to be controlled. Thatcher generally tied him in knots.

Going back to point 1, this whole discussion was about whether it was reasonable to compare Kinnock taking on the job of EU Commissioner (for which he was nominated by John Major) and Farage being bankrolled by a mate and paid by the EU for a job he never did. It's gone a hell of a long way round the houses since then.

And you’re telling me to calm down? Seriously?

[selby]

  Billy, whatever the way he did it he succeeded, made the establishment look mugs.
 Kinnock for ever will be remembered for stabbing the miners in the back, losing an election when everything should have been hunky dory for him. and then sneaking his way into keeping on the gravy train in Europe, a complete tosser.
  He ran rings around the establishment and the useless set you seem to hold in high esteem.
   Just a set of losers the lot of them.

[ravenrover]

My goodness the more I read of Billy and Bentons posts the more it makes me think of Fight Club

[belton rover]

My goodness the more I read of Billy and Bentons posts the more it makes me think of Fight Club

Well I do look a bit like Brad Pitt.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Lad at work said I looked like Bruce Willis. Now that he's let himself go.

[Bentley Bullet]

My goodness the more I read of Billy and Bentons posts the more it makes me think of Fight Club

Well I do look a bit like Brad Pitt.

I heard you were more like his brother, Cess! 

[belton rover]

My goodness the more I read of Billy and Bentons posts the more it makes me think of Fight Club

Well I do look a bit like Brad Pitt.

I heard you were more like his brother, Cess! 

Can’t stand the bloke - full of shit, he is.

[scawsby steve]

My goodness the more I read of Billy and Bentons posts the more it makes me think of Fight Club

Well I do look a bit like Brad Pitt.

I heard you were more like his brother, Cess! 

Or his other brother, Broddy.

[drfchound]

My goodness the more I read of Billy and Bentons posts the more it makes me think of Fight Club

Well I do look a bit like Brad Pitt.

I heard you were more like his brother, Cess! 

Or his other brother, Broddy.

Isn’t he still a minor.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Back to the OP of this thread, apparently we now have someone in Govt saying his job is Minister for the Benefits of Brexit.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1368554429314723840

Surprised he didn't go the full George Orwell and call himself the Minister of Plenty.

Still. Watch this space. I'm sure the benefits will be logged on a frequent basis.

[selby]

  Not surprised those who had a party when the pound tanked against the Euro but have failed to comment on the pounds gradual rise since January.
  There is a long way to go on this the Mediterranean states could well bring the house down completely.