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BBBut that is entirely avoiding the point I made up the page. The Referendum WAS a two-choice question on a subject that wasn't a two-choice question. I'm bemused by how many people are clinging to this as some sort of totem of democracy that must never be questioned.
Farage would have continued to fight against the status quo, had he lost the vote. That is different to the demands for a new vote before the original vote has even been implemented!"Once in a generation, once in a lifetime" decision, the UK has "referendums not Neverendums".
BBI'll answer your point. Democracy revolves around being able to change decisions. Referendums should be held when the electorate are in the best possible position to make a judgment. They should be held when people can view all the arguments for and against and when those arguments have been rigorously tested. In short, referendums should be held when people know exactly what they are getting.We should not ask people to vote on a blank sheet of paper and tell them to trust MPs to fill in the details afterwards. For referendums to be fair and compatible with our parliamentary process, we need the electors to be as well informed as possible and to know exactly what they are voting for. Referendums need to be treated as an addition to the parliamentary process, not as a substitute for it.And a democracy that cannot change its mind ceases to be a democracy.
Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 19, 2018, 07:49:24 amA second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced Are you trying to tell us a vote by the electorate that has a different result to a previous vote by the electorate is undemocratic...just because it's different?
A second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced
Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 19, 2018, 07:49:24 amA second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced I refuse to vote at the next General Election because I voted Conservative before and we must stay forever as a Conservative government or its undemocratic!
I suppose we're STILL ignoring the fact that Russia was meddling with the referendum, and that illegally harvested data was used to try and swing the vote.But no, you're right, having a second vote is definitely undemocratic in the face of all that.
Quote from: DonnyOsmond on November 19, 2018, 09:11:11 amQuote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 19, 2018, 07:49:24 amA second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced I refuse to vote at the next General Election because I voted Conservative before and we must stay forever as a Conservative government or its undemocratic!The referendum was supposed to be a one off, remember?
Quote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 19, 2018, 11:59:43 amQuote from: DonnyOsmond on November 19, 2018, 09:11:11 amQuote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 19, 2018, 07:49:24 amA second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced I refuse to vote at the next General Election because I voted Conservative before and we must stay forever as a Conservative government or its undemocratic!The referendum was supposed to be a one off, remember? The referendum was also supposed to be run legally, with no money pouring in from foreign powers, and no illegally harvested data being used to target susceptible Facebook users with lies and propaganda, but hey ho. Here we are.Amazing how Brexiters flatly refuse to engage with this point.
Quote from: MachoMadness on November 19, 2018, 12:51:31 pmQuote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 19, 2018, 11:59:43 amQuote from: DonnyOsmond on November 19, 2018, 09:11:11 amQuote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 19, 2018, 07:49:24 amA second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced I refuse to vote at the next General Election because I voted Conservative before and we must stay forever as a Conservative government or its undemocratic!The referendum was supposed to be a one off, remember? The referendum was also supposed to be run legally, with no money pouring in from foreign powers, and no illegally harvested data being used to target susceptible Facebook users with lies and propaganda, but hey ho. Here we are.Amazing how Brexiters flatly refuse to engage with this point.Macho, Yes, you’re right, and if those things are proven and if they did influence the result then a second vote should be considered, however remainers were beating the drum for a second vote long before any illegalities reared their head.
It's absolutely ridiculous to suggest another referendum, it wont happen. 1. it would destroy the public's trust in any future refferendum2. This silly claim that we didn't know what we would be voting for can be applied to ALL votes, with hindsight. 3. It would make a mockery even more of the uk, 'oh no, this brexit business is hard, let's have another vote and hope for the best'. 4. It basically says the the public, we don't care what you voted for. 5. The remain side vehemently said this was a one off vote, (but only when they believed they would win)
HAPlease explain why the vote I suggest would be unfair or undemocratic. It seems undeniable to me that in the 2016 vote, no-one knew what Brexit meant. I say that, because now, 29 months later, we STILL don't know what Brexiters means. It could be a No Deal Brexit. Or it could be the May Deal Brexit. But thats the point. The binary vote in 2016 was a false premise. People voted Leave for all sorts of different reasons and wanted all sorts of different outcomes. But, if there's no further opportunity to vote, then each and every one of those Leave votes will have been interpreted as supporting the Leave that we finally get. How on earth is that some democratic ideal?NOW, we have far more clarity. We know what the real options are. So it seems to me that NOT having the vote I suggest would be the real undemocratic outrage. Am I missing something obvious? Is there a reason why this proposed vote would be undemocratic and the 2016 vote is as good as it's ever going to get?
Quote from: Glyn_Wigley on November 19, 2018, 08:57:46 amQuote from: Herbert Anchovy on November 19, 2018, 07:49:24 amA second referendum may be a way of getting us out of this current mess...or it could be the latest opportunity to overturn a democratic vote that’s been under attack since the result was announced Are you trying to tell us a vote by the electorate that has a different result to a previous vote by the electorate is undemocratic...just because it's different?Glyn, The Referendum vote was billed as a one off, a once in a generation referendum. If I recall rightly the remain side were particularly keen to get this point across. Lo and behold, the vote goes the other way and suddenly we need another one, a ‘people’s vote’!
BST, as someone who is considerably older and considerably wiser than myself I have a question for you, do you think that this crop of politicians (on all sides) are the worst in modern history? So many of them across all parties come across as just inept. It’s understandable though I think, anyone with real ability and knowledge would surely end up doing something where the rewards are far greater.
What sort of lies were these, Billy.......https://brexitcentral.com/audacious-lie-referendum-campaign-remainers-claim-immigration/
BBHow long do you want to wait on Turkey?I'd happily bet any sum you want that they won't be members while I'm alive.One of the key successes of the EU has been to make dictatorships unacceptable in Europe, and to support human rights. There is not a chance in a million that a Turkey under the rule of Erdogan and his followers would ever be allowed into the EU. And it would take them a generation to rebuild the democracy that he has destroyed.