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"The obvious answer was to change the EU as an establishment but the EU won't and still hasn't changed."Do you see the problem with this attitude?A proportion of about half of UK voters wanted X. The EU with 500 million people to satisfy should have given them X.
It is as clear a case of bad faith by a politician as you will ever see. Johnson knew damn well that the deal Frost negotiated and he signed required a trade border between GB and NI with checks on goods passing over the border. It is written in the document in black and white. But he repeatedly insisted during the election campaign that there would be no checks on goods passing between GB and NI. Absolute cast iron lying. Now Frost is saying that an arrangement that requires checks on goods is unacceptable and the agreement must be torn up and renegotiated.
The point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc.
Quote from: drfchound on October 13, 2021, 08:50:11 pmThe point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc. So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU. No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious. Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!
I understood it as leave meant to leave. No deals, no agreements, no provisos, NO GOING BACK. I expected agreements/deals with the EU to be struck after we'd left, and not as conditions of leaving.
Quote from: Not Now Kato on October 14, 2021, 10:07:05 amQuote from: drfchound on October 13, 2021, 08:50:11 pmThe point raised earlier in the thread by Campsall is totally right.The vote was based on IN or OUT only. There were no options for say, out with a Norway deal etc. So why didn't the government simply enact that and walk away from the EU. No trade deal, nothing? The answer, to anyone who isn't brain dead is obvious. Pity leave voters didn't think it all trough before placing their X. I said it at the time, and I'll say it again now, leave voters didn't know what they were voting for because it wasn't spelled out!Hound's comment here encapsulates the fundamental problem with the 2016 referendum, as I've said for years.There was never any such identifiable thing as "Leave". There were dozens of ways in which we could have "Left" the EU, with many different levels of co-operation and integration with EU systems.What the vote to "Leave" did was to basically say to the party with a majority in Parliament "YOU decide what sort of arrangement we have with the EU." And after the Leave side during the campaign having repeatedly played down the prospect of us leaving the SM [1], the party with the majority in Parliament then unilaterally and without reference to parliament or to the British people, decided that "Leave" meant that we would leave the SM.And to question that process, in some people's minds, makes you a traitor to the sanctity of democracy.[1]Daniel Hanan. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzykce4oxII&t=308sBoris Johnson. https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/782633174035787776Nigel Farage. https://www.facebook.com/TheDailyPolitik/videos/407312710122024/?t=0 Owen Paterson. https://youtu.be/vhb-DLqelN8?t=87
As I understood it we were in talks with individual countries but the EU stopped it.
I was talking about countries within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it.
Apologies, I meant to say countries NOT within the EU that were eager to trade with us but the EU put a stop to it, or at least stopped us signing up to them, as you put it.
Still, it's good to know that the man who gave us Brexit is having a protracted, very public nervous breakdown.This was Cummings's Twitter response to people criticising him and Frost for negotiating a deal that Cummings himself has said no-one on the British side ever intended to honour https://mobile.twitter.com/Dominic2306/status/1448029839571685383Translation (cos it's like reading the rant of a stroppy 14 year old): SW1=WestminsterGLS=Govt Lawyersf**ked supermarket trolley is his emoji for Johnson. As in, impossible to keep him going in the right direction, keeps on swerving off line and crashing into shit.Basically, he's saying that we should all congratulate him for doing the best job in such difficult circumstances. The lack of self awareness of who it was who tipped us into "once-a-century constit crisis" is startling. Maybe he things we should thank him for rescuing a not-the-absolute-shittest-imaginable outcome from a f**king disaster that he personally engineered?