Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Copps is Magic on May 08, 2015, 01:01:42 pm
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Our government
The majority of people don't want a Tory government but we have a Tory government.
Scotland
Clearly can't stay in the Union in the same way. The fear mongering scare politics now has disproportionate effects on England. Local political representation must increase in England.
The invisble 5 million.
5 million votes between UKIP and the greens and 2 seats in the house of Parliament. 1.4 for the SNP, 50 of seats and it is apparently a revolution.
The Labour party.
Out of touch with the left wing in this country and progressive politics.
Democracy certainly wasn't a winner.
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
Would you be saying that if Labour had won? No.
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What's the alternative then given if it was anyone else it would be even less....
I mean think if it had been proportional it would clearly be a Tory and UKIP alliance in power - that would be worse...
On England well that vote was interesting, the Tories much further ahead in England...
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
Would you be saying that if Labour had won? No.
I was answering a question Michael, it's a fact regardless of where you stand politically
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
Would you be saying that if Labour had won? No.
No, somebody else would. Possibly you.
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Yes underwood, i understand that, but that would be true of any election where there are more than two parties to vote for wouldn't it.
I was merely pointing out that of the seats that were available to vote for, the Conservatives won the most of them.
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The only defense for the current voting system is that people are actually voting for their local MP and not necesarily the national party to lead. But how many people actually make their voting decision based on this - how many actually know the name of their MP or think their MP is going to serve their area.
Certainly not those who voted UKIP or Green who most obviously vote for principles. By deduction, I would suggest its similar for other parties.
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
And even more voters didn't want Labour!
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
And even more voters didn't want Labour!
True, by just 4%
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
And even more voters didn't want Labour!
True, by just 4%
But more don't want Labour than don't want the Conservatives. We will always behaving this conversation as long as we have first past the post.
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What should it be changed to,unfortunately it's always the ones that lose that want to change it so there party can win
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What should it be changed to,unfortunately it's always the ones that lose that want to change it so there party can win
I don't know what it needs changing to, I never said I wanted it changing either
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Proportional representation is a thought, but which style of proportional representation is another question.
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What should it be changed to,unfortunately it's always the ones that lose that want to change it so there party can win
I don't know what it needs changing to, I never said I wanted it changing either
Just looking for a reaction then?
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What should it be changed to,unfortunately it's always the ones that lose that want to change it so there party can win
I don't know what it needs changing to, I never said I wanted it changing either
Just looking for a reaction then?
Not at all Michael, I'll leave that to you :)
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What should it be changed to,unfortunately it's always the ones that lose that want to change it so there party can win
I don't know what it needs changing to, I never said I wanted it changing either
Just looking for a reaction then?
Not at all Michael, I'll leave that to you :)
Who?
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
Not quite, 36-37% of those who voted, voted Conservative. Assuming (as estimated earlier today by the BBC) that two thirds of the electorate actually voted, then it is probably less than 25% of the electorate actually voted Conservative, and therefore over 75% didn't!
With the system now, the party taking the most seats can in theory have small majorities in each seat, and the second placed party have much larger majorities in each constituency so the winning party may have not got the most votes.
A solution?
Separate votes for the government and for local MPs. Vote as now for the local MP, but for the government use proportional representation. Again there may be an imbalance between the government votes and the proportional amount of MPs, but you would expect the party winning the government vote to get the most local MPs.
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What should it be changed to,unfortunately it's always the ones that lose that want to change it so there party can win
I don't know what it needs changing to, I never said I wanted it changing either
wasn't aimed at you filo it was just a general comment mate
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I sort of understand the point but what you reap you sow....Even as a Tory voter myself I do struggle to understand how it's constitutenal how a party like ukip can have 2 million plus more votes than the snp and only have 1 seat against there 56 or so...
However the point that we are back in with a majority whilst you argue we had a minority vote loses its impact when if I remember right it was labour who last changed the boundarys of Scotland to help them get a majority...However I'm sure they didn't see this coming...
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The Conservatives got to the proposed winning line that they needed to do to win the election.
There has to be a target to reach to be declared the winner.
Is it any different to a say, a runner, who gets to the finishing line a split second before the man who comes in second.
The winner is, well the winner, not just the man who only just beat the one who came second.
It is a bit of a joke though that the SNP will have a big say in the ruling of England.
Did they even have a candidate in a vote south of the border?
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What should it be changed to,unfortunately it's always the ones that lose that want to change it so there party can win
I don't know what it needs changing to, I never said I wanted it changing either
wasn't aimed at you filo it was just a general comment mate
Fair enough
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
Not quite, 36-37% of those who voted, voted Conservative. Assuming (as estimated earlier today by the BBC) that two thirds of the electorate actually voted, then it is probably less than 25% of the electorate actually voted Conservative, and therefore over 75% didn't!
With the system now, the party taking the most seats can in theory have small majorities in each seat, and the second placed party have much larger majorities in each constituency so the winning party may have not got the most votes.
A solution?
Separate votes for the government and for local MPs. Vote as now for the local MP, but for the government use proportional representation. Again there may be an imbalance between the government votes and the proportional amount of MPs, but you would expect the party winning the government vote to get the most local MPs.
By the same token 36% voted Tory, 33% didn't vote at all, for whatever reason. Not voting is same as a vote for winner isn't it? , therefore 69% must be happy for Tories to remain.
Which ever way it falls 5 more years of Conservative party in charge.
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So much is wrong and so much has to change you say. I agree. Things would be so much better in this country if only people would realise that capitalism although far from perfect, is an infinitely better system than socialism.
You lefties need to read the following article and cop yourselves on.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100131209/capitalism-isnt-immoral-its-the-most-virtuous-system-on-the-market/
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The Tories will win the next election without doubt as well because if things go wrong they will just put boris in charge
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Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
And even more voters didn't want Labour!
True, by just 4%
6.5%
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The Tories will win the next election without doubt as well because if things go wrong they will just put boris in charge
I doubt it will be quite that easy. As a Lib/Dem, I am gutted that we or no other 3rd party can no longer rein in the excesses of the Tories.
Quote simply the opportunity to vote for a form of PR was lost early in the new Parliament.
I am devastated that all that hard work has been thrown away over "tuition fees" and all the good things that the L/Dems brought about or reined in were overlooked by the British electorate.
We now risk the Union collapsing. It was almost like the SNP were taking the piss last night with 20 year old lasses unseating great parliamentarians.... What a mess. Where does any party start ? Who are UKIP and what do they stand for ? - I need a counselor quickly :(((
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The Tories will win the next election without doubt as well because if things go wrong they will just put boris in charge
I doubt it will be quite that easy. As a Lib/Dem, I am gutted that we or no other 3rd party can no longer rein in the excesses of the Tories.
Quote simply the opportunity to vote for a form of PR was lost early in the new Parliament.
I am devastated that all that hard work has been thrown away over "tuition fees" and all the good things that the L/Dems brought about or reined in were overlooked by the British electorate.
We now risk the Union collapsing. It was almost like the SNP were taking the piss last night with 20 year old lasses unseating great parliamentarians.... What a mess. Where does any party start ? Who are UKIP and what do they stand for ? - I need a counselor quickly :(((
I feel sorry for the LibDems. They did not deserve what they got. In fact I think given their record in power they actually deserved to pick up some seats.
Unfortunately for them, the bulk of their so called support didn't have the brains to realise that as by far the smallest party in the coalition they could not implement their manifesto.
It really makes my piss boil when people say they don't support them anymore because of tuition fees. What a total overreaction. These idiots forget all the good things they did such as massively increasing the tax free allowance.
Nick Clegg is a hero in my book. History will judge him very kindly. Quite right too.
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The Tories will win the next election without doubt as well because if things go wrong they will just put boris in charge
I doubt it will be quite that easy. As a Lib/Dem, I am gutted that we or no other 3rd party can no longer rein in the excesses of the Tories.
Quote simply the opportunity to vote for a form of PR was lost early in the new Parliament.
I am devastated that all that hard work has been thrown away over "tuition fees" and all the good things that the L/Dems brought about or reined in were overlooked by the British electorate.
We now risk the Union collapsing. It was almost like the SNP were taking the piss last night with 20 year old lasses unseating great parliamentarians.... What a mess. Where does any party start ? Who are UKIP and what do they stand for ? - I need a counselor quickly :(((
I feel sorry for the LibDems. They did not deserve what they got. In fact I think given their record in power they actually deserved to pick up some seats.
Unfortunately for them, the bulk of their so called support didn't have the brains to realise that as by far the smallest party in the coalition they could not implement their manifesto.
It really makes my piss boil when people say they don't support them anymore because of tuition fees. What a total overreaction. These idiots forget all the good things they did such as massively increasing the tax free allowance.
Nick Clegg is a hero in my book. History will judge him very kindly. Quite right too.
It will judge him that way that is for sure. The Lib/Dems have always been strong at a local level and I'm amazed that they were turned over in the South- West as easily as they were. Like the Labour party in Scotland they were blown away by the tsunami of fear that was created for them by a very clever Tory party. Folk in these islands could not take the risk of allowing a rainbow coalition such as that suggested by the SNP to run the country. People were just scared that a possible Labour victory in England would allow the Scots to dictate to the English.
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Our government
The majority of people don't want a Tory government but we have a Tory government.
Scotland
Clearly can't stay in the Union in the same way. The fear mongering scare politics now has disproportionate effects on England. Local political representation must increase in England.
The invisble 5 million.
5 million votes between UKIP and the greens and 2 seats in the house of Parliament. 1.4 for the SNP, 50 of seats and it is apparently a revolution.
The Labour party.
Out of touch with the left wing in this country and progressive politics.
Democracy certainly wasn't a winner.
Did you deliberately avoid mentioning how the Lib/Dems have been "dicked" election after election after election. Everyone that voted against PR (AV) in the Labour party need to take a long hard look at themselves. Where did democracy go ?
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The problem was that a majority of people bought the idea that Labour would be ruled by the SNP.
BTW What is the "left wing" that you comment on . is it Blairite, Marxist what because I see no sign from the results that there was a general demand for a move to the left ?
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The Tories will win the next election without doubt as well because if things go wrong they will just put boris in charge
I doubt it will be quite that easy. As a Lib/Dem, I am gutted that we or no other 3rd party can no longer rein in the excesses of the Tories.
Quote simply the opportunity to vote for a form of PR was lost early in the new Parliament.
I am devastated that all that hard work has been thrown away over "tuition fees" and all the good things that the L/Dems brought about or reined in were overlooked by the British electorate.
We now risk the Union collapsing. It was almost like the SNP were taking the piss last night with 20 year old lasses unseating great parliamentarians.... What a mess. Where does any party start ? Who are UKIP and what do they stand for ? - I need a counselor quickly :(((
I feel sorry for the LibDems. They did not deserve what they got. In fact I think given their record in power they actually deserved to pick up some seats.
Unfortunately for them, the bulk of their so called support didn't have the brains to realise that as by far the smallest party in the coalition they could not implement their manifesto.
It really makes my piss boil when people say they don't support them anymore because of tuition fees. What a total overreaction. These idiots forget all the good things they did such as massively increasing the tax free allowance.
Nick Clegg is a hero in my book. History will judge him very kindly. Quite right too.
It will judge him that way that is for sure. The Lib/Dems have always been strong at a local level and I'm amazed that they were turned over in the South- West as easily as they were. Like the Labour party in Scotland they were blown away by the tsunami of fear that was created for them by a very clever Tory party. Folk in these islands could not take the risk of allowing a rainbow coalition such as that suggested by the SNP to run the country. People were just scared that a possible Labour victory in England would allow the Scots to dictate to the English.
True Hoola, but I don't know what more Ed Milliband could have said to make it clear there was never going to be any such liaison with the SNP.
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Not a Lib Dem, but it seems bizarre that they lost seats to the Tories when they say they stopped Tory excesses. So were Lib Dem votes really Tories in 2010 who wavered? Why were they punished so harshly, I can understand their votes going to Labour, but to the Tories?
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Without looking at individual seats I think the case in the Lib Dem/ Tory marginals was that the Tory vote held up while the Lib Dem vote collapsed. Their votes didn't cross to the Tories but went to Labour, Greens and, oddly, UKIP.
This had the effect of magnifying the swing to the Tories. My local constituency went from being Lib Dem with a tiny majority to Tory with a majority of over 12,000.
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The problem was that a majority of people bought the idea that Labour would be ruled by the SNP.
BTW What is the "left wing" that you comment on . is it Blairite, Marxist what because I see no sign from the results that there was a general demand for a move to the left ?
You must have missed the rise of the SNP in Scotland to keep the tories out or the increase in the green vote. (Or the slight overall swing from conservative to labour but that is tenuous)
The distinction is pretty much meaningless anyway when applied to the mainstream parties. They're all trying to micro manage the economy and have broadley the same social policies.
..and Marx and Blair in the same breath. Christ on a bike. Blair was a neoliberal politician par excellence. Marx would be turning in his grave.
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I can't understand it yet either Hounslow but there did seem to be a correlation between their -% and the UKIP + % in many many cases I.e. maybe Tories to the left of the mainstream but why the jump to UKIP as well as the Tories . Some strange things happening last night all caused by fear that maybe just maybe the SNP would manipulate Labour. It was obvious that they could never be partners the price would be far more than a
Labour lead government could pay. it was that very uncertainty and the perceived weakness of Miliband that did for both parties . It did not help that UKIP with probably the most ridiculous manifesto became a vocal and visual player .
As I said I'm appalled by the result. Moral of the story is don't ever again get anywhere near a Coalition with backstabbing bedfellows.
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Without looking at individual seats I think the case in the Lib Dem/ Tory marginals was that the Tory vote held up while the Lib Dem vote collapsed. Their votes didn't cross to the Tories but went to Labour, Greens and, oddly, UKIP.
This had the effect of magnifying the swing to the Tories. My local constituency went from being Lib Dem with a tiny majority to Tory with a majority of over 12,000.
RB it seems that the pundits rarely alluded to this anomaly last night, which was strange.
I believe that in the face of a rise in Scottish nationhood , that the English found safety in what they believed to be the "English" party I.e. the Conservatives.
Are we to have very strained relationships now with the Scots as it does seem inevitable. The SNP definitely hasn't got the result they wanted in England.
What the future holds God only knows but be sure the Lib/Dems will be back only stronger and wiser.
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UKIP cant be classed as right or left wing on any conventional political spectrum. They are essentially a one policy party. They want to leave the EU. That in itself is not an intristically right wing thing. Reducing immigration dramatically would be, but in all the interviews I've seen UKIP have said they support many facets of immigration. (Its certain 'people' they don't like).
The rest of their policies are clearly bonkers and drawn with crayons.
I must congratulate them on one thing, theeyve basically killed the BNP.
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I can't understand it yet either Hounslow but there did seem to be a correlation between their -% and the UKIP + % in many many cases I.e. maybe Tories to the left of the mainstream but why the jump to UKIP as well as the Tories . Some strange things happening last night all caused by fear that maybe just maybe the SNP would manipulate Labour. It was obvious that they could never be partners the price would be far more than a
Labour lead government could pay. it was that very uncertainty and the perceived weakness of Miliband that did for both parties . It did not help that UKIP with probably the most ridiculous manifesto became a vocal and visual player .
As I said I'm appalled by the result. Moral of the story is don't ever again get anywhere near a Coalition with backstabbing bedfellows.
What was ridiculous about the Ukip manifesto like?
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Surely it's time to recognise that Scotland is no longer part of the UK. Give them another chance to vote for independence and let's hope this time it's a 'Yes'.
I for one would wave them a fond farewell. There's no way they should have any say in the UK Government but I wish them well with going it alone.
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They were going to join with the snp thou,even when the first polls had come in Ed balls said even if the exit polls were right that cons might not be able to form a government and if that was the case labour would,so the only way they could do that would be to join with the snp
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They were going to join with the snp thou,even when the first polls had come in Ed balls said even if the exit polls were right that cons might not be able to form a government and if that was the case labour would,so the only way they could do that would be to join with the snp
Bang on. Part of the reason Labour lost so badly was that people could see through the blatant lie that they would not work with the SNP. This was duplicity on a massive scale. Milliband must think we're all stupid.
Well he's paid the price.
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They were going to join with the snp thou,even when the first polls had come in Ed balls said even if the exit polls were right that cons might not be able to form a government and if that was the case labour would,so the only way they could do that would be to join with the snp
I thought Ed Balls's performance was quite extraordinary. I can only think that he was already aware that he was likely to lose his seat and his mind was on that.
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I have a very strong feeling, IDM, that this has happened in my lifetime. I can't remember the details and I've not got time to look them up, but I do have a memory, possibly fantasy!, of someone forming a govenrment here with less votes than the other lot.
I suppose 1964 would be the obvious candidate.
BobG
Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
Not quite, 36-37% of those who voted, voted Conservative. Assuming (as estimated earlier today by the BBC) that two thirds of the electorate actually voted, then it is probably less than 25% of the electorate actually voted Conservative, and therefore over 75% didn't!
With the system now, the party taking the most seats can in theory have small majorities in each seat, and the second placed party have much larger majorities in each constituency so the winning party may have not got the most votes.
A solution?
Separate votes for the government and for local MPs. Vote as now for the local MP, but for the government use proportional representation. Again there may be an imbalance between the government votes and the proportional amount of MPs, but you would expect the party winning the government vote to get the most local MPs.
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There has to be something done to stop the SNP and the other couple of Scottish MPs voting on English matters
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There has to be something done to stop the SNP and the other couple of Scottish MPs voting on English matters
I agree and immediately, also "bin " the Barnett formula that will bring them back to reality.
The SNP THINK that they are/were going to get the best of all worlds I.e. fiscal autonomy, English subsidies and still the right to vote in the Non- Scottish parliament.
They are buggered now because none of that should be happening. Sever all but trading ties now , anchor our nuclear submarines here, ensure our territorial integrity oh and ask the folk of the outer Scottish Isles whether they and their waters want to stick with us.
All this will kill the SÑP next election if they are still with us
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There was a total of 650 Westminster MPs elected by about 46.5 million registered voters. UKIP got 13% of the votes, and have ended up with just one seat.
So much IS wrong and so much HAS to change.
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There was a total of 650 Westminster MPs elected by about 46.5 million registered voters. UKIP got 13% of the votes, and have ended up with just one seat.
So much IS wrong and so much HAS to change.
UKIP was so wrong for so many reasons and probably one of the main reasons the Tories were gifted a majority. They won't have any impact at the next GE.
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UKIP was so wrong for so many reasons and probably one of the main reasons the Tories were gifted a majority. They won't have any impact at the next GE.
3.5 million voters disagreed with you.
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Our government
The majority of people don't want a Tory government but we have a Tory government.
Scotland
Clearly can't stay in the Union in the same way. The fear mongering scare politics now has disproportionate effects on England. Local political representation must increase in England.
The invisble 5 million.
5 million votes between UKIP and the greens and 2 seats in the house of Parliament. 1.4 for the SNP, 50 of seats and it is apparently a revolution.
The Labour party.
Out of touch with the left wing in this country and progressive politics.
Democracy certainly wasn't a winner.
Did you deliberately avoid mentioning how the Lib/Dems have been "dicked" election after election after election. Everyone that voted against PR (AV) in the Labour party need to take a long hard look at themselves. Where did democracy go ?
Glaringly obvious now Hoola! I voted UKIP and can't believe nearly 4 million votes have resulted in just 1 seat, where PR would have resulted in 84 seats being gained. Surely what the nation feels is a more representative view than where in the nation you live!!!
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UKIP was so wrong for so many reasons and probably one of the main reasons the Tories were gifted a majority. They won't have any impact at the next GE.
3.5 million voters disagreed with you.
3.5 million voters were as daft as you and gifted the Tories the ultimate prize... a slim but workable majority.
I am not sure whether we will ever see a Labour Government for many many years perhaps a generation.
UKIP is dead in the water, they have no base whatsoever to work from and once the European question is out of the way ...they will become a total irrelevance.
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Our government
The majority of people don't want a Tory government but we have a Tory government.
Scotland
Clearly can't stay in the Union in the same way. The fear mongering scare politics now has disproportionate effects on England. Local political representation must increase in England.
The invisble 5 million.
5 million votes between UKIP and the greens and 2 seats in the house of Parliament. 1.4 for the SNP, 50 of seats and it is apparently a revolution.
The Labour party.
Out of touch with the left wing in this country and progressive politics.
Democracy certainly wasn't a winner.
Did you deliberately avoid mentioning how the Lib/Dems have been "dicked" election after election after election. Everyone that voted against PR (AV) in the Labour party need to take a long hard look at themselves. Where did democracy go ?
Glaringly obvious now Hoola! I voted UKIP and can't believe nearly 4 million votes have resulted in just 1 seat, where PR would have resulted in 84 seats being gained. Surely what the nation feels is a more representative view than where in the nation you live!!!
Were you as angry when every election as far as I remember disenfranchised many many Liberals or Liberal Democrats. Everyone laughed when the Liberals called for a fairer and more representative electoral system. In 2010 the Lib/Dems secured only 9% less of the vote than Labour and got only 57 seats . That meant that 50% of their vote then went totally unrepresented. As they should have had c. 120 seats
That is why they tried to push for AV had Labour gone along with that ...we would Not be in this position. Who did you vote for in 2010 ?
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Fair point Hoola!
Voted labour and your right about the PR issue. Should have been sorted before now for certain. Just think the Ukip vote has re-inforced what the Lib Dems were saying. Not much point in expecting a change because Turkeys don't vote for Christmas!!!!
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Does anyone else share my suspicion that England (at least) has entered a substantial period of time where there will only be one party that is capable of winning an outright majority at any general election?
I'm struggling to see how Labour can win a majority if this landscape continues. If Scotland goes, the Tories can only ever lose by through either crass stupidity, or, an outlandish set of circumstances. It will happen, one day, but it might not be for a long time.
Oh. And don't forget the Boundary Commission recommendations are now going to be enacted into law. That will cost the Labour Party a further nett 20 seats at the next election.
BobG
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Bob, they are attempting to live on the premise that most people vote labour because that is what their parents and their grand parents before them have done.
Personally I have no connection with this current labour party and for me their fundamental principles do not reflect the world we live in today! I voted Ukip because what they have to say reflects alot of how I personally feel the country should be run and makes basic common and garden common sense! I don't believe for one minute the media hype which portrays them as a party that are about to create the 4th Reich or start gassing eastern europeans!!!
I've had the opportunity to vote for the last 30 years and during that time I've listened to the punch and Judy show of "Oh no we didn't, Oh yes you did"and the latest trump card of "look at the mess we inherited" talking loud whilst saying nothing mantra. I wanted to see both of them in opposition so that the message that got through would be that the people wouldn't stand for this bullshit anymore.
For me the reality is that we have a government that failed to meet its target on budget deficit, failed to meet its target on controlling immigration and yet dispite this have cake walked back into number 10!!!
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Plus que ¢a change etc. Our electoral system is no longer fit for purpose. We are moving into a 5 party system and not the 2 party system that worked in the 18/19/20th centuries . It has to change and I had hoped that the Labour party would embrace that idea when it was put in front of the Commons in 2011.
They obviously didn't think it through in much the same way as they didn't recognise that the Lib/Dems stood in the way of the proposed Boundary reforms much wanted by the Tories. It will be impossible as Bob G said above for any other party to be in power again for a long time. Bar a massive cock-up by the Tories or a Revolution .....neither will happen anytime soon.
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Fair point Hoola!
Voted labour and your right about the PR issue. Should have been sorted before now for certain. Just think the Ukip vote has re-inforced what the Lib Dems were saying. Not much point in expecting a change because Turkeys don't vote for Christmas!!!!
Thank you for conceding the point Savvy and far from voting for Christmas ; those turkeys demand now that Christmas should happen every 3 years or so now they are unshackled from the Coalition that wouldn't countenance a change at all.
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Bob, they are attempting to live on the premise that most people vote labour because that is what their parents and their grand parents before them have done.
Personally I have no connection with this current labour party and for me their fundamental principles do not reflect the world we live in today! I voted Ukip because what they have to say reflects alot of how I personally feel the country should be run and makes basic common and garden common sense! I don't believe for one minute the media hype which portrays them as a party that are about to create the 4th Reich or start gassing eastern europeans!!!
I've had the opportunity to vote for the last 30 years and during that time I've listened to the punch and Judy show of "Oh no we didn't, Oh yes you did"and the latest trump card of "look at the mess we inherited" talking loud whilst saying nothing mantra. I wanted to see both of them in opposition so that the message that got through would be that the people wouldn't stand for this bullshit anymore.
For me the reality is that we have a government that failed to meet its target on budget deficit, failed to meet its target on controlling immigration and yet dispite this have cake walked back into number 10!!!
I inderstand why you voted UKIP Savvy and in the grand scheme of thingss your one vote didn't change anything around here, it's the UKIP vote in key marginals that have enabled them to cake walk back in, along with the SNP scaremongering. The jocks will get alot of what they want from the Tories, the Tories now know if they humour the SNP it'll make it hard for Labour to get back in, the jocks need to wake up to that fact!
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I have a very strong feeling, IDM, that this has happened in my lifetime. I can't remember the details and I've not got time to look them up, but I do have a memory, possibly fantasy!, of someone forming a govenrment here with less votes than the other lot.
I suppose 1964 would be the obvious candidate.
BobG
Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
Not quite, 36-37% of those who voted, voted Conservative. Assuming (as estimated earlier today by the BBC) that two thirds of the electorate actually voted, then it is probably less than 25% of the electorate actually voted Conservative, and therefore over 75% didn't!
With the system now, the party taking the most seats can in theory have small majorities in each seat, and the second placed party have much larger majorities in each constituency so the winning party may have not got the most votes.
A solution?
Separate votes for the government and for local MPs. Vote as now for the local MP, but for the government use proportional representation. Again there may be an imbalance between the government votes and the proportional amount of MPs, but you would expect the party winning the government vote to get the most local MPs.
Mrs Thatcher won a landslide victory with 42% of the vote so more than half of the Electorate (who voted) did not want her in charge but they got her and her ideals
Labour will find it difficult from here on in. I have just been to Isle of Wight which is the biggest Constituency I heard on the Radio and a "safe" Conservative Seat
Their MP has already said that IOW is too unwieldy and needs splitting in 2. So there will be 2 "safe" Tory Seats and there is talk already of redrawing the Constituency Boundaries of another 19 areas which will as you may guess produce another 20 Tory safe / marginal Seats. Add to that the demise in Scotland and I seriously don't see Labour getting that near that often from now on
We are well and truly f****d democracy wise especially if you don't want Cameron as PM.
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The Boundary Commission proposals should have been implemented a while ago. The Lib Dems held them up. They'll go through now and the nett effect will be a loss of 20 seats for Labour. That's one of the reaons why I think we are probably in for a considerable period of what, effectively, is one party government. The only possible alternative is an anti Tory coalition. Even that is hardly very likely given the majority just given to what is an unpopular Conservative Party. The Tories could self destruct over Europe I suppose too - but how likely is that to lead to a change of government? Not very I suspect. John Major managed to soldier on.
BobG
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Bob, they are attempting to live on the premise that most people vote labour because that is what their parents and their grand parents before them have done.
Personally I have no connection with this current labour party and for me their fundamental principles do not reflect the world we live in today! I voted Ukip because what they have to say reflects alot of how I personally feel the country should be run and makes basic common and garden common sense! I don't believe for one minute the media hype which portrays them as a party that are about to create the 4th Reich or start gassing eastern europeans!!!
I've had the opportunity to vote for the last 30 years and during that time I've listened to the punch and Judy show of "Oh no we didn't, Oh yes you did"and the latest trump card of "look at the mess we inherited" talking loud whilst saying nothing mantra. I wanted to see both of them in opposition so that the message that got through would be that the people wouldn't stand for this bullshit anymore.
For me the reality is that we have a government that failed to meet its target on budget deficit, failed to meet its target on controlling immigration and yet dispite this have cake walked back into number 10!!!
I inderstand why you voted UKIP Savvy and in the grand scheme of thingss your one vote didn't change anything around here, it's the UKIP vote in key marginals that have enabled them to cake walk back in, along with the SNP scaremongering. The jocks will get alot of what they want from the Tories, the Tories now know if they humour the SNP it'll make it hard for Labour to get back in, the jocks need to wake up to that fact!
Filo, the reason that the Tories got back in lies from within the Labour Party itself, probably one of the most least charismatic leaders in ages, failed on two major counts in their promises and yet Labour could not come up as the obvious alternative! Deflecting the attention onto UKIP and the SNP won't improve the state they are in!!!
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I have a very strong feeling, IDM, that this has happened in my lifetime. I can't remember the details and I've not got time to look them up, but I do have a memory, possibly fantasy!, of someone forming a govenrment here with less votes than the other lot.
I suppose 1964 would be the obvious candidate.
BobG
Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?
No, 36% of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't
Not quite, 36-37% of those who voted, voted Conservative. Assuming (as estimated earlier today by the BBC) that two thirds of the electorate actually voted, then it is probably less than 25% of the electorate actually voted Conservative, and therefore over 75% didn't!
With the system now, the party taking the most seats can in theory have small majorities in each seat, and the second placed party have much larger majorities in each constituency so the winning party may have not got the most votes.
A solution?
Separate votes for the government and for local MPs. Vote as now for the local MP, but for the government use proportional representation. Again there may be an imbalance between the government votes and the proportional amount of MPs, but you would expect the party winning the government vote to get the most local MPs.
Mrs Thatcher won a landslide victory with 42% of the vote so more than half of the Electorate (who voted) did not want her in charge but they got her and her ideals
Labour will find it difficult from here on in. I have just been to Isle of Wight which is the biggest Constituency I heard on the Radio and a "safe" Conservative Seat
Their MP has already said that IOW is too unwieldy and needs splitting in 2. So there will be 2 "safe" Tory Seats and there is talk already of redrawing the Constituency Boundaries of another 19 areas which will as you may guess produce another 20 Tory safe / marginal Seats. Add to that the demise in Scotland and I seriously don't see Labour getting that near that often from now on
We are well and truly f****d democracy wise especially if you don't want Cameron as PM.
That's simply not true John. The proposals are to do the exact opposite and even up the disparity that Labour currently have giving them a 2% head start on the Tories.The commons seats will be reduced from 650 to 600 under the proposals.
The Lib/Dems to their credit and I hasten not to their advantage stopped this happening.
The Conservatives intend to change the boundaries as one of their first priorities of course.
There is no one to stop them doing just as they please now ?
Apologies this post is in response to that of donnywolf :(
P.s. i don't see a situation ever again in my lifetime where there will be a Labour Govt.
Unfortunately it was a case of the wrong leader pushing the wrong agenda in the wrong environment. If and this is a massive 'if' Scotland does stay in the Union then it could happen if the SNP is found out and the Tories make mistakes by pushing far right wing agendas.
Two massive 'its' and highly unlikely to occur at the same time.
I expect the Tories to tamper with the 'fixed term' 5 year election system to a flexible one where they can decide on when to hold elections again.
This was another piece of legislation that the Lib/Dems insisted on........next they will probably unwind anything else that the Lib/Dems insisted on.
Its going to get harsher and harsher with no checks and balances such as the Coalition provided. :suicide:
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Hoola
There's no point complaining that the LDs are not there to hold the Tories back. There is NO-ONE to blame for the destruction of the LDs than the party itself.
I told you 5 years ago this week that the party had signed its own death warrant by going into coalition.
They didn't have to do that. They could have gone for C&S and REALLY driven a hard deal, because they would not have had the issue of Cabinet responsibility.
But they didn't. Clegg was spooked by Mervyn King and Gus O'Donnell strong-arming him into believing that we needed a strong, stable Govt or we'd turn into Greece.
It was bullshit and anyone who knew anything about the economics knew it was bullshit. We were never going to be Greece. Our debt position wasn't remotely like that of Greece and, crucially, we had our own currency so we could face the bond vigilantes down at any time.
If Clegg didn't know this, he should never have got within sniffing distance of having to make that decision. If he DID know that, he had no excuse for saying there was no alternative. Either way EVERYONE now knows that we were never going to be Greece. They teach it as a case study of Great Economic Misunderstandings at Princeton University. But Clegg was still rabbiting the same bullshit during this campaign. Still saying, "Look, we took a hard decision for the country at a time that we could have ended up like Greece." Which makes him either totally ignorant or a shameless liar.
Either way, he's got what was coming to him. And do has his party for simply lining up to be shot alongside him and having neither the balls not the sense to rebel.
They are not coming back from this in our lifetime.
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Hoola
There's no point complaining that the LDs are not there to hold the Tories back. There is NO-ONE to blame for the destruction of the LDs than the party itself.
I told you 5 years ago this week that the party had signed its own death warrant by going into coalition.
They didn't have to do that. They could have gone for C&S and REALLY driven a hard deal, because they would not have had the issue of Cabinet responsibility.
But they didn't. Clegg was spooked by Mervyn King and Gus O'Donnell strong-arming him into believing that we needed a strong, stable Govt or we'd turn into Greece.
It was bullshit and anyone who knew anything about the economics knew it was bullshit. We were never going to be Greece. Our debt position wasn't remotely like that of Greece and, crucially, we had our own currency so we could face the bond vigilantes down at any time.
If Clegg didn't know this, he should never have got within sniffing distance of having to make that decision. If he DID know that, he had no excuse for saying there was no alternative. Either way EVERYONE now knows that we were never going to be Greece. They teach it as a case study of Great Economic Misunderstandings at Princeton University. But Clegg was still rabbiting the same bullshit during this campaign. Still saying, "Look, we took a hard decision for the country at a time that we could have ended up like Greece." Which makes him either totally ignorant or a shameless liar.
Either way, he's got what was coming to him. And do has his party for simply lining up to be shot alongside him and having neither the balls not the sense to rebel.
They are not coming back from this in our lifetime.
Billy I'm not complaining only stating there isn't anyone to stop this lot except for an outbreak of fratricide.
For the record , I think that Clegg completely misunderstood the situation. He was both out- manoeuvred and frankly out of his depth.
What now worries me is that both Labour and the Lib/Dems face a " shut out " from power/power sharing for a very long time.
Yes he made major mistakes, yes he and those with him had their eyes on the prize of posts and I think were persuaded by the opportunity.
Was/is he a liar ? Unfortunately I can't answer that not being a party to all the negotiations or by looking the man in the eye. I would never be able to persuade you that he was anything else than a lying, conniving, stupid man/politician - you made your mind up immediately he embarked on the Coalition with the Tories.
Was C & S an option or was he persuaded both by the Tories and the situation that this was the only deal on the table - Coalitions aren't usually agreed to by the bigger partner unless deemed totally necessary - you obviously are privy to facts and conversations that I wasn't privy to.
Sadly all parties renege on manifesto promises more have been broken by the main parties than the L/Dem party in the past .. ...yes Labour do it too Billy !! I disliked what they did over Tuition fees as much as you did ; like you I wouldn't charge for anything in life but in reality you do need the money to do it . We disagree on the ways and means to get out of the mess post the Banking crisis of 2010 but I am not getting into a discussion on that again . Patently you have a finer political mind than I have and I don't want to spend months debating this again with you. Sorry I have too much going on mate.
I am devastated that we will have a one party state for a generation - the Tories will now ensure that with their jerrymandering. It will be 18 months before we even have an effective opposition ffs.
As a final point I do think that the Lib/Dems were pinning their hopes on PR and were probably duped by a very clever Tory negotiation team into thinking that might happen.
For years the Lib/Dems and the Liberals before them pushed for a form of PR. Never was that ever needed as much as it is today ...alas the chance has gone possibly forever and now we have disenfranchised folk more than ever.
I could cry mate but this is not the fault of the Lib/Dems and Thursday's results show just how and why it should have happened.
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No. Sorry Hools but PR is a recipe for disaster.
We have witnessed a relatively startling growth in the number of at least vaguely credible parties this time around. The Greens are going to become one sooner or later. Moving to PR is not only going to encourage other new parties but it will make the government forming process an exercose in chaos. There's waaaayyy too many examples from 20th C history where PR led to paralysis, chaos and even disaster. I may not like the Tories, but at least they are a government. Coalitions are political lowest common denominators whilst minority governments are pretty well pointless. I, and I hope everyone else, don't want either of them.
As for Clegg, do you suppose that neither him nor anyone in his party ever stopped to think: 'If we join up with XXX (pick your bigger party) then those that vote for us as a protest against the excesses of XXX, will simply see us as both untrustworthy and pointless?' That's what they are now. Untrustworthy and utterly pointless. The bloke is a fool.
BobG
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Hoola mate, I'll be honest with you, what happened to the LDs is not something I am happy about in a strategic sense.
15 years ago, I thought Blair missed a massive trick in not giving the LDs PR on decent terms. He had flirted with it, and back then, the LDs were much more left-leaning than they became when Clegg, Laws and the Orange Bookers took over the guiding philosophy. If Blair had done that, he'd have pretty much guaranteed a left-leaning coalition Govt for eternity.
As it is, the rebuffing of the LDs while the Labour Party was occupying the centre-ground drove them rightwards. That and the self-destruction of the LDs by Clegg's decision in 2010 has left a big hole where a progressive centre party should be. The final irony was that so many of the 2010 LD supporters appear to have voted Tory or UKIP last week. The final frittering away of the centre-left bloc that could have been built by Blair and Ashdown/Kennedy.
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No. Sorry Hools but PR is a recipe for disaster.
We have witnessed a relatively startling growth in the number of at least vaguely credible parties this time around. The Greens are going to become one sooner or later. Moving to PR is not only going to encourage other new parties but it will make the government forming process an exercose in chaos. There's waaaayyy too many examples from 20th C history where PR led to paralysis, chaos and even disaster. I may not like the Tories, but at least they are a government. Coalitions are political lowest common denominators whilst minority governments are pretty well pointless. I, and I hope everyone else, don't want either of them.
As for Clegg, do you suppose that neither him nor anyone in his party ever stopped to think: 'If we join up with XXX (pick your bigger party) then those that vote for us as a protest against the excesses of XXX, will simply see us as both untrustworthy and pointless?' That's what they are now. Untrustworthy and utterly pointless. The bloke is a fool.
BobG
Those excesses didn't stop them getting a majority Bob. Scaremongering did and it was an easy card for the Tories to play once Sturgeon spelt out their position.
Its easy to say "the man's a fool" but he obviously shouldn't have been - he's well educated and must have been vetted at every stage in the same way as all career politicians are. I don't entirely buy that anymore than I believe Ed Milliband to be. Quite plainly he/they were dealing with much finer and experienced political minds than they were.
They were plainly even foolhardedly chasing what for the Lib/Dems would have been the holy grail I.e. PR . For high on 100:years they and the Liberals before them were desperately under represented in the Commons. I know you prefer a 2 party system but it was the Liberals who were replaced by the Labour party early in the 20th century wasn't it ? Union money bought the wherewithal to persuade the electorate as well as a tide of Socialism through many European countries.
The Liberals were traditionally the party that cared for the population of this country for those that were unaware of their historical roots ( not you Bob ).
Incidentally it was good to hear that membership grew by 5000 on Friday ...they will be back and have a far finer and deeper tradition than many would give them credit for.
History won't be as harsh on Clegg and the Lib/Dems as you lefties would have us all believe.
Bob you seriously don't believe that 1st past the post is still fit for purpose do you....you are disenfranchising some 30-45 % of those that can be bothered to vote. Is this fit for purpose are you serious ?
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Hoola mate, I'll be honest with you, what happened to the LDs is not something I am happy about in a strategic sense.
15 years ago, I thought Blair missed a massive trick in not giving the LDs PR on decent terms. He had flirted with it, and back then, the LDs were much more left-leaning than they became when Clegg, Laws and the Orange Bookers took over the guiding philosophy. If Blair had done that, he'd have pretty much guaranteed a left-leaning coalition Govt for eternity.
As it is, the rebuffing of the LDs while the Labour Party was occupying the centre-ground drove them rightwards. That and the self-destruction of the LDs by Clegg's decision in 2010 has left a big hole where a progressive centre party should be. The final irony was that so many of the 2010 LD supporters appear to have voted Tory or UKIP last week. The final frittering away of the centre-left bloc that could have been built by Blair and Ashdown/Kennedy.
I know its bizarre and the biggest irony of them all. :(
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Im serius about the need for a government to have the ability to govern. Coalitions can govern - sometimes. But when times get rough, tough, coalitions don't have a track record worth shit. And this world is heading towards rougher and tougher times. So yes. I do mean it.
BobG
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Im serius about the need for a government to have the ability to govern. Coalitions can govern - sometimes. But when times get rough, tough, coalitions don't have a track record worth shit. And this world is heading towards rougher and tougher times. So yes. I do mean it.
BobG
Bob , a Coalition has just been in charge of the country for 5 years so patently it can work . I do believe that Clegg honestly thought that he and the party could make a difference. Then they ( not all of them ) thought the price was worth paying if they could just get that PR in place but that was never going to happen whilst the two major parties thought ( wrongly as it happened ) that they could win outright majorities on a roughly alternate basis . of course we all now realise that Labour will probably be shut out for a very very long time. It's ironic isn't it ?
Just a final point, the German parliament seems to get by on their "mixed member" form of PR and it doesn't paralyse their economy .
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"Divided responsibility ultimately means no one is responsible" W.E. Deming 1986.
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"Divided responsibility ultimately means no one is responsible" W.E. Deming 1986.
Yes and that is a good quotation Savvy but does it always apply.
Think about how parents bring up their children, both parents may have entirely different views and philosophies on how a child should be brought up.
However that doesn't mean that any child will necessarily turn out good/bad etc.
Power sharing can be done successfully and you again just have to look across to Germany to see how it works.
Politically we have some growing up to do in this country. Perhaps it would help if youngsters were taught about politics from the age of 11 in secondary schools.
I think you might just find that the interest levels would soar.
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Oh Hools come on man!!
You simply CANNOT pray in aid the experience of the German political system! Just cast your mind back a tad eh? Think abaout their previous PR system and where that led. Then think about a sense of national shame. Of national guilt. And work out how that little lot impacts ANY political system. They could have Beelzebub himself in charge and they'd make it work alright. They dare not do anything else. Ever.
Bob
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Oh Hools come on man!!
You simply CANNOT pray in aid the experience of the German political system! Just cast your mind back a tad eh? Think abaout their previous PR system and where that led. Then think about a sense of national shame. Of national guilt. And work out how that little lot impacts ANY political system. They could have Beelzebub himself in charge and they'd make it work alright. They dare not do anything else. Ever.
Bob
I'm with Bob on this one. Even though UKIP would have got many more seats I think FPTP for all its flaws is better than PR. With PR there would be too many parties with different agendas for PR to work better than the current system. If you want things to fail then run them by committee. And that's what we'd end up with.
There would be more time spent haggling than running the country. This is a luxury we cannot afford.
I want strong decisive government, not paralysis.
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No. Sorry Hools but PR is a recipe for disaster.
We have witnessed a relatively startling growth in the number of at least vaguely credible parties this time around. The Greens are going to become one sooner or later. Moving to PR is not only going to encourage other new parties but it will make the government forming process an exercose in chaos. There's waaaayyy too many examples from 20th C history where PR led to paralysis, chaos and even disaster. I may not like the Tories, but at least they are a government. Coalitions are political lowest common denominators whilst minority governments are pretty well pointless. I, and I hope everyone else, don't want either of them.
As for Clegg, do you suppose that neither him nor anyone in his party ever stopped to think: 'If we join up with XXX (pick your bigger party) then those that vote for us as a protest against the excesses of XXX, will simply see us as both untrustworthy and pointless?' That's what they are now. Untrustworthy and utterly pointless. The bloke is a fool.
BobG
That's nonsense Bob because XXXXparty was given a majority. So apparently they didn't piss off their members. This election was built around the fear of a Labour/SNP Coalition those that previously voted L/,Dem merely voted to keep that from happening... It worked only too well and I'm sure there will be many that are and will be unhappy with the outcome come the end of this Parliament . They have far more chance of recovering lost ground....it will galvanise them . unlike the Labour party they have never been able to take their votes for granted.
Labour were hammered just as much if not more than the L /Dems IMO only the L/Dems don't have the outside influences to contend with I.e. the likes of McCluskey.
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I'm with hoola, Millibands comment about no deal with the SNP under any circumstances effectively sealed labour's fate with the jock's who would never vote Tory left with the SNP as their only real alternative!!
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I'm with hoola, Millibands comment about no deal with the SNP under any circumstances effectively sealed labour's fate with the jock's who would never vote Tory left with the SNP as their only real alternative!!
The daft thing is that he would have done deals with the SNP. Quite a few of the shadow cabinet admitted as much. Milliband had no credibility on this issue whatsoever and was sussed out as a blatant liar by most of the electorate. Any government that was in a minority would have to talk to other parties.
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No. Sorry Hools but PR is a recipe for disaster.
We have witnessed a relatively startling growth in the number of at least vaguely credible parties this time around. The Greens are going to become one sooner or later. Moving to PR is not only going to encourage other new parties but it will make the government forming process an exercose in chaos. There's waaaayyy too many examples from 20th C history where PR led to paralysis, chaos and even disaster. I may not like the Tories, but at least they are a government. Coalitions are political lowest common denominators whilst minority governments are pretty well pointless. I, and I hope everyone else, don't want either of them.
As for Clegg, do you suppose that neither him nor anyone in his party ever stopped to think: 'If we join up with XXX (pick your bigger party) then those that vote for us as a protest against the excesses of XXX, will simply see us as both untrustworthy and pointless?' That's what they are now. Untrustworthy and utterly pointless. The bloke is a fool.
BobG
That's nonsense Bob because XXXXparty was given a majority. So apparently they didn't piss off their members. This election was built around the fear of a Labour/SNP Coalition those that previously voted L/,Dem merely voted to keep that from happening... It worked only too well and I'm sure there will be many that are and will be unhappy with the outcome come the end of this Parliament . They have far more chance of recovering lost ground....it will galvanise them . unlike the Labour party they have never been able to take their votes for granted.
Labour were hammered just as much if not more than the L /Dems IMO only the L/Dems don't have the outside influences to contend with I.e. the likes of McCluskey. I'm with hoola, Millibands comment about no deal with the SNP under any circumstances effectively sealed labour's fate with the jock's who would never vote Tory left with the SNP as their only real alternative!!
The daft thing is that he would have done deals with the SNP. Quite a few of the shadow cabinet admitted as much. Milliband had no credibility on this issue whatsoever and was sussed out as a blatant liar by most of the electorate. Any government that was in a minority would have to talk to other parties.
Mick that didn't make him a blatant liar anymore than the 3 other party leaders ....Cameron, Clegg or Farage
It looked set for a hung parliament to all of them. I know the Tories would like to re- write the history of this election and its various vagaries ( see the bile and sarcasm in the Daily Mail ). The Tories hoped that the fear would work and it did . Basically it was luck brought about by the possible collapse of Labour in Scotland and the vicious mouth of Sturgeon.
Can you confirm whether you are a Tory, Labour or UKIP because I don' t know about anyone else but I'm confused.......are you too ?
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I'm UKIP as my number one political goal is to get out of Europe as I believe we would be much better off economically. However as I am a hardcore right winger that believes in a smaller state I also support the Tories.
I am also magnanimous and respect what the LibDems did by putting the country first before party. I will give credit where credit is due regardless of who the party is.
I detest Labour because they are economically illiterate and believe in a dependency culture. They always ruin the country when in power and always increase the size of the state thinking this is a good way to buy votes. They also always increase unemployment. I find it incomprehensible why anyone would think voting for them was a good thing.
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Im serius about the need for a government to have the ability to govern. Coalitions can govern - sometimes. But when times get rough, tough, coalitions don't have a track record worth shit. And this world is heading towards rougher and tougher times. So yes. I do mean it.
BobG
Germany has an excellent track record with coalition governments...mind you, I think they go about their politics in a more mature way than the yah-boo way they're conducted in this country.
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See post no. 74 Glyn.
Cheers
Bob
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See post no. 74 Glyn.
Cheers
Bob
See post no. 73 GLYN where I refer to the political maturity of modern Germans. Bob why are you still referring to what happened high on a century ago. I think modern Germany and hence the Germans deserve more credit than you have given them. I'm sure that any aspiring young German politician doesn't walk into the Reichstag fearing another outbreak of WW2. Your attitude more likely suggests that we as a society have failed to move on ?
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Of course the modern Germans are mature Hools. That's the whole point! They are just about the only major nation on the planet who can make it work - for one bleeding obvious reason.
Bob
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Of course the modern Germans are mature Hools. That's the whole point! They are just about the only major nation on the planet who can make it work - for one bleeding obvious reason.
Bob
Come on Bob , we are very similar to the Germans only perhaps more inventive. Are you saying that we couldn't possibly look at reasonable ways to improve our democratic processes.
I realise that we generally have had a 2 party system especially during the days of Whig and Tory Governments. However we have flirted with this idea in the past and there is absolutely no reason why good governance can't come from Coalitions.
However I know how things can get out of hand ; the Dutch parliament with it's myriad of secular, religious, left right, up/down is a perfect example of this however they still muddle along and generally they and only they know what they are doing.
Whatever the confusion from outsiders is , they still able to sort it out and end up representing 50% + of the electorate using a form of PR. It's difficult, it works and generally the Dutch like the Germans prosper. I could go on but we have to stop looking to the past for all the answers as if our form of democracy is really the " mother of all parliaments" . Is it when it rarely represents more than 35% of the vote and therefore c. 25% of the total electorate ?
Is it fit for purpose when such disparities exist between those UKIP and Labour voters and their voices in Parliament ?
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Of course the modern Germans are mature Hools. That's the whole point! They are just about the only major nation on the planet who can make it work - for one bleeding obvious reason.
Bob
Come on Bob , we are very similar to the Germans only perhaps more inventive. Are you saying that we couldn't possibly look at reasonable ways to improve our democratic processes.
I realise that we generally have had a 2 party system especially during the days of Whig and Tory Governments. However we have flirted with this idea in the past and there is absolutely no reason why good governance can't come from Coalitions.
However I know how things can get out of hand ; the Dutch parliament with it's myriad of secular, religious, left right, up/down is a perfect example of this however they still muddle along and generally they and only they know what they are doing.
Whatever the confusion from outsiders is , they still able to sort it out and end up representing 50% + of the electorate using a form of PR. It's difficult, it works and generally the Dutch like the Germans prosper. I could go on but we have to stop looking to the past for all the answers as if our form of democracy is really the " mother of all parliaments" . Is it when it rarely represents more than 35% of the vote and therefore c. 25% of the total electorate ?
Is it fit for purpose when such disparities exist between those UKIP and Labour voters and their voices in Parliament ?
As a Ukipper I would say it is fit for purpose. It is up to UKIP to get to the level of support where they can win with first past the post. Any party that doesn't achieve this goal doesn't deserve many MPs in my book. I'd rather the bar was set very high than very low. PR sets it too low and would allow all kinds of silly parties (like the Greens) to have too much influence.
If the message is good enough you can succeed with FPTP. UKIP's time will come. I expect us to win many seats come 2020. We will fill the void left by an unfairly judged LibDem party and a dysfunctional Labour party. If we don't make a huge breakthrough then I will be very happy anyway as it would mean the more established parties have got their act together.
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Whatever happens we need a strong Opposition bench and quickly not just to blindly reject everything and anything out of hand but to look into things properly.
Early days Cameron is going to be buoyant as are all the Tories but the reality is that there will be plenty of inter-nescine shenanigans down the line with the far right (1922 committee) and plenty of time for the vipers to fight back if organised and coherent.