So much is wrong and so much has to change

[hoolahoop]

Our government

The majority of people don't want a Tory government but we have a Tory government.

Scotland

Clearly can't stay in the Union in the same way. The fear mongering scare politics now has disproportionate effects on England. Local political representation must increase in England.

The invisble 5 million.

5 million votes between UKIP and the greens and 2 seats in the house of Parliament. 1.4 for the SNP, 50 of seats and it is apparently a revolution.

The Labour party.

Out of touch with the left wing in this country and progressive politics.


Democracy certainly wasn't a winner.

Did you deliberately avoid mentioning how the Lib/Dems have been "dicked" election after election after election. Everyone that voted against PR (AV) in the Labour party need to take a long hard look at themselves. Where did democracy go ?

[hoolahoop]

The problem was that a majority of people bought the idea that Labour would be ruled by the SNP.
BTW What is the "left wing" that you comment on . is it Blairite, Marxist what because I see no sign from the results that there was a general demand for a move to the left ?

[i_ateallthepies]

The Tories will win the next election without doubt as well because if things go wrong they will just put boris in charge

I doubt it will be quite that easy. As a Lib/Dem, I am gutted that we or no other 3rd party can no longer rein in the excesses of the Tories.
Quote simply the opportunity to vote for a form of PR was lost early in the new Parliament.

I am devastated that all that hard work has been thrown away over "tuition fees" and all the good things that the L/Dems brought about or reined in were overlooked by the British electorate.
We now risk the Union collapsing. It was almost like the SNP were taking the piss last night with 20 year old lasses unseating great parliamentarians.... What a mess. Where does any party start ? Who are UKIP and what do they stand for ?  - I need a counselor quickly ((

I feel sorry for the LibDems. They did not deserve what they got. In fact I think given their record in power they actually deserved to pick up some seats.

Unfortunately for them, the bulk of their so called support didn't have the brains to realise that as by far the smallest party in the coalition they could not implement their manifesto.

It really makes my piss boil when people say they don't support them anymore because of tuition fees. What a total overreaction. These idiots forget all the good things they did such as massively increasing the tax free allowance.

Nick Clegg is a hero in my book. History will judge him very kindly. Quite right too.

It will judge him that way that is for sure. The Lib/Dems have always been strong at a local level and I'm amazed that they were turned over in the South- West as easily as they were. Like the Labour party in Scotland they were blown away by the tsunami of fear that was created for them by a very clever Tory party. Folk in these islands could not take the risk of allowing a rainbow coalition such as that suggested by the SNP to run the country. People were just scared that a possible Labour victory in England would allow the Scots to dictate to the English.

True Hoola, but I don't know what more Ed Milliband could have said to make it clear there was never going to be any such liaison with the SNP.

[Hounslowrover]

Not a Lib Dem, but it seems bizarre that they lost seats to the Tories when they say they stopped Tory excesses. So were Lib Dem votes really Tories in 2010 who wavered? Why were they punished so harshly, I can understand their votes going to Labour, but to the Tories?

[The Red Baron]

Without looking at individual seats I think the case in the Lib Dem/ Tory marginals was that the Tory vote held up while the Lib Dem vote collapsed. Their votes didn't cross to the Tories but went to Labour, Greens and, oddly, UKIP.

This had the effect of magnifying the swing to the Tories. My local constituency went from being Lib Dem with a tiny majority to Tory with a majority of over 12,000.

[Copps is Magic]

The problem was that a majority of people bought the idea that Labour would be ruled by the SNP.
BTW What is the "left wing" that you comment on . is it Blairite, Marxist what because I see no sign from the results that there was a general demand for a move to the left ?

You must have missed the rise of the SNP in Scotland to keep the tories out or the increase in the green vote. (Or the slight overall swing from conservative to labour but that is tenuous)

The distinction is pretty much meaningless anyway when applied to the mainstream parties. They're all trying to micro manage the economy and have broadley the same social policies.

..and Marx and Blair in the same breath. Christ on a bike. Blair was a neoliberal politician par excellence. Marx would be turning in his grave.

[hoolahoop]

I can't understand it yet either Hounslow but there did seem to be a correlation between their -% and the UKIP + % in many many cases I.e. maybe Tories to the left of the mainstream but why the jump to UKIP as well as the Tories . Some strange things happening last night all caused by fear that maybe just maybe the SNP would manipulate Labour. It was obvious that they could never be partners the price would be far more than a
Labour lead government could pay.  it was that very uncertainty and the perceived weakness of Miliband that did for both parties . It did not help that UKIP with probably the most ridiculous manifesto became a vocal and visual player .
As I said I'm appalled by the result. Moral of the story is don't ever again get anywhere near a Coalition with backstabbing bedfellows.

[hoolahoop]

Without looking at individual seats I think the case in the Lib Dem/ Tory marginals was that the Tory vote held up while the Lib Dem vote collapsed. Their votes didn't cross to the Tories but went to Labour, Greens and, oddly, UKIP.

This had the effect of magnifying the swing to the Tories. My local constituency went from being Lib Dem with a tiny majority to Tory with a majority of over 12,000.

RB it seems that the pundits rarely alluded to this anomaly last night, which was strange.
I believe that in the face of a rise in Scottish nationhood , that the English found safety in what they believed to be the "English" party I.e. the Conservatives.

Are we to have very strained relationships now with the Scots as it does seem inevitable. The SNP definitely hasn't got the result they wanted in England.
What the future holds God only knows but be sure the Lib/Dems will be back only stronger and wiser.

[Copps is Magic]

UKIP cant be classed as right or left wing on any conventional political spectrum. They are essentially a one policy party. They want to leave the EU. That in itself is not an intristically right wing thing. Reducing immigration dramatically would be, but in all the interviews I've seen UKIP have said they support many facets of immigration. (Its certain 'people' they don't like).

The rest of their policies are clearly bonkers and drawn with crayons.

I must congratulate them on one thing, theeyve basically killed the BNP.

[Savvy]

I can't understand it yet either Hounslow but there did seem to be a correlation between their -% and the UKIP + % in many many cases I.e. maybe Tories to the left of the mainstream but why the jump to UKIP as well as the Tories . Some strange things happening last night all caused by fear that maybe just maybe the SNP would manipulate Labour. It was obvious that they could never be partners the price would be far more than a
Labour lead government could pay.  it was that very uncertainty and the perceived weakness of Miliband that did for both parties . It did not help that UKIP with probably the most ridiculous manifesto became a vocal and visual player .
As I said I'm appalled by the result. Moral of the story is don't ever again get anywhere near a Coalition with backstabbing bedfellows.

What was ridiculous about the Ukip manifesto like?

[neil grainger]

Surely it's time to recognise that Scotland is no longer part of the UK. Give them another chance to vote for independence and let's hope this time it's a 'Yes'.

I for one would wave them a fond farewell. There's no way they should have any say in the UK Government but I wish them well with going it alone.

 

[bpoolrover]

They were going to join with the snp thou,even when the first polls had come in Ed balls said even if the exit polls were right that cons might not be able to form a government and if that was the case labour would,so the only way they could do that would be to join with the snp

[IC1967]

They were going to join with the snp thou,even when the first polls had come in Ed balls said even if the exit polls were right that cons might not be able to form a government and if that was the case labour would,so the only way they could do that would be to join with the snp

Bang on. Part of the reason Labour lost so badly was that people could see through the blatant lie that they would not work with the SNP. This was duplicity on a massive scale. Milliband must think we're all stupid.

Well he's paid the price.

[The Red Baron]

They were going to join with the snp thou,even when the first polls had come in Ed balls said even if the exit polls were right that cons might not be able to form a government and if that was the case labour would,so the only way they could do that would be to join with the snp

I thought Ed Balls's performance was quite extraordinary. I can only think that he was already aware that he was likely to lose his seat and his mind was on that.

[BobG]

I have a very strong feeling, IDM, that this has happened in my lifetime. I can't remember the details and I've not got time to look them up, but I do have a memory, possibly fantasy!, of someone forming a govenrment here with less votes than the other lot.

I suppose 1964 would be the obvious candidate.

BobG

Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?

No, 36%  of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't

Not quite, 36-37% of those who voted, voted Conservative. Assuming (as estimated earlier today by the BBC) that two thirds of the electorate actually voted, then it is probably less than 25% of the electorate actually voted Conservative, and therefore over 75% didn't!

With the system now, the party taking the most seats can in theory have small majorities in each seat, and the second placed party have much larger majorities in each constituency so the winning party may have not got the most votes.

A solution?

Separate votes for the government and for local MPs.  Vote as now for the local MP, but for the government use proportional representation.  Again there may be an imbalance between the government votes and the proportional amount of MPs, but you would expect the party winning the government vote to get the most local MPs.

[roversdude]

There has to be something done to stop the SNP and the other couple of Scottish MPs voting on English matters

[hoolahoop]

There has to be something done to stop the SNP and the other couple of Scottish MPs voting on English matters

I agree and immediately, also "bin " the Barnett formula that will bring them back to reality.
The SNP THINK that they are/were going to get the best of all worlds I.e. fiscal autonomy, English subsidies and still the right to vote in the Non- Scottish parliament.
They are buggered now because none of that should be happening. Sever all but trading ties now , anchor our nuclear submarines here, ensure our territorial integrity oh and ask the folk of the outer Scottish Isles whether they and their waters want to stick with us.
All this will kill the SÑP next election if they are still with us

[Bentley Bullet]

There was a total of 650 Westminster MPs elected by about 46.5 million registered voters. UKIP got 13% of the votes, and have ended up with just one seat.

So much IS wrong and so much HAS to change.

[hoolahoop]

There was a total of 650 Westminster MPs elected by about 46.5 million registered voters. UKIP got 13% of the votes, and have ended up with just one seat.

So much IS wrong and so much HAS to change.

UKIP was so wrong for so many reasons and probably one of the main reasons the Tories were gifted a majority. They won't have any impact at the next GE.

[Bentley Bullet]

UKIP was so wrong for so many reasons and probably one of the main reasons the Tories were gifted a majority. They won't have any impact at the next GE.

3.5 million voters disagreed with you.

[Savvy]

Our government

The majority of people don't want a Tory government but we have a Tory government.

Scotland

Clearly can't stay in the Union in the same way. The fear mongering scare politics now has disproportionate effects on England. Local political representation must increase in England.

The invisble 5 million.

5 million votes between UKIP and the greens and 2 seats in the house of Parliament. 1.4 for the SNP, 50 of seats and it is apparently a revolution.

The Labour party.

Out of touch with the left wing in this country and progressive politics.


Democracy certainly wasn't a winner.

Did you deliberately avoid mentioning how the Lib/Dems have been "dicked" election after election after election. Everyone that voted against PR (AV) in the Labour party need to take a long hard look at themselves. Where did democracy go ?

Glaringly obvious now Hoola! I voted UKIP and can't believe nearly 4 million votes have resulted in just 1 seat, where PR would have resulted in 84 seats being gained. Surely what the nation feels is a more representative view than where in the nation you live!!!

[hoolahoop]

UKIP was so wrong for so many reasons and probably one of the main reasons the Tories were gifted a majority. They won't have any impact at the next GE.

3.5 million voters disagreed with you.

3.5 million voters were as daft as you and gifted the Tories the ultimate prize... a slim but workable majority.
I am not sure whether we will ever see a Labour Government for many many years perhaps a generation.
UKIP is dead in the water, they have no base whatsoever to work from and once the European question is out of the way ...they will become a total irrelevance.

[hoolahoop]

Our government

The majority of people don't want a Tory government but we have a Tory government.

Scotland

Clearly can't stay in the Union in the same way. The fear mongering scare politics now has disproportionate effects on England. Local political representation must increase in England.

The invisble 5 million.

5 million votes between UKIP and the greens and 2 seats in the house of Parliament. 1.4 for the SNP, 50 of seats and it is apparently a revolution.

The Labour party.

Out of touch with the left wing in this country and progressive politics.


Democracy certainly wasn't a winner.

Did you deliberately avoid mentioning how the Lib/Dems have been "dicked" election after election after election. Everyone that voted against PR (AV) in the Labour party need to take a long hard look at themselves. Where did democracy go ?

Glaringly obvious now Hoola! I voted UKIP and can't believe nearly 4 million votes have resulted in just 1 seat, where PR would have resulted in 84 seats being gained. Surely what the nation feels is a more representative view than where in the nation you live!!!

Were you as angry when every election as far as I remember disenfranchised many many Liberals or Liberal Democrats. Everyone laughed when the Liberals called for a fairer and more representative electoral system. In 2010 the Lib/Dems secured only 9% less of the vote than Labour and got only 57 seats . That meant that 50% of their vote then went totally unrepresented. As they should have had c. 120 seats
That is why they tried to push for AV had Labour gone along with that ...we would Not be in this position. Who did you vote for in 2010 ?

[Savvy]

Fair point Hoola!

Voted labour and your right about the PR issue. Should have been sorted before now for certain. Just think the Ukip vote has re-inforced what the Lib Dems were saying. Not much point in expecting a change because Turkeys don't vote for Christmas!!!!

[BobG]

Does anyone else share my suspicion that England (at least) has entered a substantial period of time where there will only be one party that is capable of winning an outright majority at any general election?

I'm struggling to see how Labour can win a majority if this landscape continues. If Scotland goes, the Tories can only ever lose by through either crass stupidity, or, an outlandish set of circumstances. It will happen, one day, but it might not be for a long time.

Oh. And don't forget the Boundary Commission recommendations are now going to be enacted into law. That will cost the Labour Party a further nett 20 seats at the next election.

BobG

[Savvy]

Bob, they are attempting to live on the premise that most people vote labour because that is what their parents and their grand parents before them have done.

Personally I have no connection with this current labour party and for me their fundamental principles do not reflect the world we live in today! I voted Ukip because what they have to say reflects alot of how I personally feel the country should be run and makes basic common and garden common sense! I don't believe for one minute the media hype which portrays them as a party that are about to create the 4th Reich or start gassing eastern europeans!!!

I've had the opportunity to vote for the last 30 years and during that time I've listened to the punch and Judy show of "Oh no we didn't, Oh yes you did"and the latest trump card of "look at the mess we inherited" talking loud whilst saying nothing mantra.  I wanted to see both of them in opposition so that the message that got through would be that the people wouldn't stand for this bullshit anymore.
For me the reality is that we have a government that failed to meet its target on budget deficit, failed to meet its target on controlling immigration and yet dispite this have cake walked back into number 10!!!

[hoolahoop]

Plus que ¢a change etc. Our electoral system is no longer fit for purpose. We are moving into a 5 party system and not the 2 party system that worked in the 18/19/20th centuries . It has to change and I had hoped that the Labour party would embrace that idea when it was put in front of the Commons in 2011.
They obviously didn't think it through in much the same way as they didn't recognise that the Lib/Dems stood in the way of the proposed Boundary reforms much wanted by the Tories. It will be impossible as Bob G said above for any other party to be in power again for a long time. Bar a massive cock-up by the Tories or a Revolution .....neither will happen anytime soon.

[hoolahoop]

Fair point Hoola!

Voted labour and your right about the PR issue. Should have been sorted before now for certain. Just think the Ukip vote has re-inforced what the Lib Dems were saying. Not much point in expecting a change because Turkeys don't vote for Christmas!!!!

Thank you for conceding the point Savvy and far from voting for Christmas ; those turkeys demand now that Christmas should happen every 3 years or so now they are unshackled from the Coalition that wouldn't countenance a change at all.

[Filo]

Bob, they are attempting to live on the premise that most people vote labour because that is what their parents and their grand parents before them have done.

Personally I have no connection with this current labour party and for me their fundamental principles do not reflect the world we live in today! I voted Ukip because what they have to say reflects alot of how I personally feel the country should be run and makes basic common and garden common sense! I don't believe for one minute the media hype which portrays them as a party that are about to create the 4th Reich or start gassing eastern europeans!!!

I've had the opportunity to vote for the last 30 years and during that time I've listened to the punch and Judy show of "Oh no we didn't, Oh yes you did"and the latest trump card of "look at the mess we inherited" talking loud whilst saying nothing mantra.  I wanted to see both of them in opposition so that the message that got through would be that the people wouldn't stand for this bullshit anymore.
For me the reality is that we have a government that failed to meet its target on budget deficit, failed to meet its target on controlling immigration and yet dispite this have cake walked back into number 10!!!

I inderstand why you voted UKIP Savvy and in the grand scheme of thingss your one vote didn't change anything around here, it's the UKIP vote in key marginals that have enabled them to cake walk back in, along with the SNP scaremongering. The jocks will get alot of what they want from the Tories, the Tories now know if they humour the SNP it'll make it hard for Labour to get back in, the jocks need to wake up to that fact!

[Donnywolf]

I have a very strong feeling, IDM, that this has happened in my lifetime. I can't remember the details and I've not got time to look them up, but I do have a memory, possibly fantasy!, of someone forming a govenrment here with less votes than the other lot.

I suppose 1964 would be the obvious candidate.

BobG

Doesn't the fact that the Conservatives won more seats than anyone else indicate the a majority of people DO want a Conservative government?

No, 36%  of the electorate voted for the Conservatives, 64% didn't

Not quite, 36-37% of those who voted, voted Conservative. Assuming (as estimated earlier today by the BBC) that two thirds of the electorate actually voted, then it is probably less than 25% of the electorate actually voted Conservative, and therefore over 75% didn't!

With the system now, the party taking the most seats can in theory have small majorities in each seat, and the second placed party have much larger majorities in each constituency so the winning party may have not got the most votes.

A solution?

Separate votes for the government and for local MPs.  Vote as now for the local MP, but for the government use proportional representation.  Again there may be an imbalance between the government votes and the proportional amount of MPs, but you would expect the party winning the government vote to get the most local MPs.

Mrs Thatcher won a landslide victory with 42% of the vote so more than half of the Electorate (who voted) did not want her in charge but they got her and her ideals

Labour will find it difficult from here on in. I have just been to Isle of Wight which is the biggest Constituency I heard on the Radio and a "safe" Conservative Seat

Their MP has already said that IOW is too unwieldy and needs splitting in 2. So there will be 2 "safe" Tory Seats and there is talk already of redrawing the Constituency Boundaries of another 19 areas which will as you may guess produce another 20 Tory safe / marginal Seats. Add to that the demise in Scotland and I seriously don't see Labour getting that near that often from now on

We are well and truly f****d democracy wise especially if you don't want Cameron as PM.