Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: not on facebook on June 14, 2017, 09:08:21 am
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Christ almighty how on oearth can something like this happen and so quickly after watching reports on the news.
Not been confirmed by any news agency but people that lived in the block that have been interviewed have said that a fridge started the fire on a lower floor flat .
Never lived in a high block in my life and will never tend to after watching this.
Looks horrific
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It seems that the blocked was a council block for hammersmith & chelsea and it housed council tenants and was run by a management company.iam going to stick my neck out here and say half the problem is with above.
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I have just been told about it after school run, those poor souls would not have had a single chance,,,, Wait for the blame game now to switch back and forth. ie "Fire Certificate" for starters. I hope all that can be saved are saved. My prayers for the deceased and my thoughts are with the firmen and women fighting the flames, may they all be safe.
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I can still see the smoke from my office now a couple of miles down the road. Hope they have got as many people out safely as possible.
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Apparently, the block was refurbished only last year.
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Listening to the bloke who lived there on the news this morning, sounds like the new cladding on the outside might be partly to blame for how quickly it might've spread.
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Some horrific pictures of it and some fatalities confirmed
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The word cladding seems to be popping up all the time .
New cladding was added to the block a year or so ago and the claims are that this stuff might have helped the fire spread so quick.
Nobody it seems was woke up by sound of fire alarms as they was all woke up by sounds of shouting /screaming or neighbours banging on their doors.
Fire safety Issues from a fire group that live within the flat was brought to attention to local authority's last year but to no avail.
Sounds like it's going to get a lot more worse on where the trail of blame will end up and Iam going back to the council placed the tenants into the block which was run by a management company.
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I lived in a block of flats ( about 5 storeys ) in M-Gladbach in the early 80's and some local nutter tried 3 times to set fire to the block . He succeeded on his 3rd attempt , starting a fire in the cellar close to the oil tank and central heating boiler . Thankfully the fire service was alerted fairly quickly and were soon on the scene to take control . For a while we had thick smoke coming up the stairwell and also the air filter system into our bathrooms . We were advised to evacuate the flats onto the balcony and what did I have with me ....wife , kids , budgie , passports , security pass for work and a bottle of brandy !!! There wasn't much brandy left by the time the all clear was given . Thankfully the arsonist was caught soon afterwards . Could have been a whole lot worse .
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This faulty fridge keeps on been mentioned by locals for cause of the start of the fire.
There was warnings about a certian type of fridge in the news a few years back as they was deemed a fire risk.
With the above I just can't take in how a faulty fridge can blow up then within a hour a whole block of flats is ablaze.
U.K. has some of the strongest fire building regulations worldwide .
You would have thought that if it was a exploding fridge that the fire would have been contained to that said room or floor at the most.
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I lived in a block of flats ( about 5 storeys ) in M-Gladbach in the early 80's and some local nutter tried 3 times to set fire to the block . He succeeded on his 3rd attempt , starting a fire in the cellar close to the oil tank and central heating boiler . Thankfully the fire service was alerted fairly quickly and were soon on the scene to take control . For a while we had thick smoke coming up the stairwell and also the air filter system into our bathrooms . We were advised to evacuate the flats onto the balcony and what did I have with me ....wife , kids , budgie , passports , security pass for work and a bottle of brandy !!! There wasn't much brandy left by the time the all clear was given . Thankfully the arsonist was caught soon afterwards . Could have been a whole lot worse .
What no crate of Grolsch on the balcony? Strange that 😉
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Not seen any bottles of grolsch for sometime now they certainly cornered the market on flip top bees for sure.
My memory migh be playing tricks on me but Iam sure that there was a pub in gillingham that had it on tap,when rovers played there some 25 years ago.
That's the only time I ever saw it on tap if it's the case.
Guess it's like hieneken ,taste ok out of the bottle but shite when on tap.same can be said for carslberg ,Holstein pils .
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The central stairway should be protected to allow safe egress
In many such buildings tenants are advised to stay put and there are no provisions for fire alarms
They had a fire in same block very recently that was contained so the cladding could be a big factor
Hopefully structure will be sound enough to allow for thorough investigation rather than being demolished
Thoughts are with the poor souls who have perished and families who have lost everything
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I can't believe that sprinklers are not a standard requirment for all high rise buildings
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I can't believe that sprinklers are not a standard requirment for all high rise buildings
I think I heard that they are for newer buildings but not existing ones.
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Apparently the refurb included installing new gas supply pipework top to bottom - INSTALLED IN THE STAIRWELL!!! THE ONLY STAIRWELL IN THE BUILDING. Somebody is going to be in some right trouble when the truth comes out.
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Not sure it will have been in stairwell there is usually a shaft for services but await further news
Company I work for has several similar properties in London worryingly both have just had a refurb with same cladding
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I can't believe that sprinklers are not a standard requirment for all high rise buildings
I think I heard that they are for newer buildings but not existing ones.
Which if true makes it even more ridiculous, older buildings would have been built with outdated building regs. When the buildings have tennents they should be brought up to existing regs
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if it is a exploding fridge from a 4th floor felt that was the source of this fire that some locals have muted i still can't take in the end result within such a short space of time.
something's must have been terrible wrong with numerous safety issues within the block on Tuesday morning .
That saying > 'every action has a reaction ' comes to mind .
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I'm led to believe that after that fire in Camberwell in 2009 a bunch of recommendations were made to prevent the same ting happeneing again - only they haven't been laid before Parliament so nothing has changed. If that really is true, (and it does look rather odd) then we would definitely be treated to the noble art of scapegoating. Somebody is going to prison for this. Anyone would think we're in Dacca or Mogadishu or somewhere....
As an aside, how long before some bright jihadist fellow realises he's just been presented with the perfect weapon? Utter chaos within days if they do realise....
I had tears in my eyes a few times today. What a bloody awful sight. Those poor, poor people. Imagine being forced to choose to throw your baby out of a 9th floor window.... It doesn't bear thinking about.
BobG
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After watching bbc2 newsnight the trail of blame will go up much higher than a firemans ladder , and end up on a governments members desk.then it will drop back down and land on some fcuker down the chain.
As bob pointed out there was a smaller fire in London in 2009 where 6 died and it has the exact same DNA as this one > cladding and refurbishment of blocks changing the effectiveness of its fire safety .
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After watching bbc2 newsnight the trail of blame will go up much higher than a firemans ladder , and end up on a governments members desk.then it will drop back down and land on some fcuker down the chain.
As bob pointed out there was a smaller fire in London in 2009 where 6 died and it has the exact same DNA as this one > cladding and refurbishment of blocks changing the effectiveness of its fire safety .
Indeed, and this makes interesting, (frightening), reading http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-minister-warned-beefing-up-10622601 Bet they find a way to come out smelling of roses :evil:
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After watching bbc2 newsnight the trail of blame will go up much higher than a firemans ladder , and end up on a governments members desk.then it will drop back down and land on some fcuker down the chain.
As bob pointed out there was a smaller fire in London in 2009 where 6 died and it has the exact same DNA as this one > cladding and refurbishment of blocks changing the effectiveness of its fire safety .
Indeed, and this makes interesting, (frightening), reading http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-minister-warned-beefing-up-10622601 Bet they find a way to come out smelling of roses :evil:
That is truly shocking, everyone who sat on reports or ignored them needs bringing to task, manslaughter charges must surely follow
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Can't help but think that the sub letting culture that's across all the U.K.s big city's will shock the local council and government when the final body count is in .
Onto a good point after this tragedy the local community have all pulled together and are helping as ONE community .
Different race creeds colours all helping each other and doors of whatever place of pray held open to help.
I have heard the term 'londoners' used again and again by many different faces which is a good sign.
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Crowds gather outside church for vigil after Grenfell Tower blaze (http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/15348057.Crowds_gather_outside_church_for_vigil_after_Grenfell_Tower_blaze/)
(http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/resources/images/6463309.jpg?display=1&htype=0&type=responsive-gallery)
candles - drapes - wrapping paper - obvious fire hazard, IMHO....
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Inappropriate and in bad taste Herman.
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A bit of stupid question, but why was the cladding applied in the first place ?
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Insulation properties ?
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A bit of stupid question, but why was the cladding applied in the first place ?
There seems to be two reasons that have come out.
The said block of flats was said to have been a eyesore by the higher class who live close by.
Don't 4get the area is Kensington and Chelsea where untold mega bucks live.
Also there was a college just behind the flats that had a refurbishment via cladding so the local council
pushed forward the uograde of the said block of flats with a refurbishment which had new windows and the cladding within in it.
Issue here is that more supperior form of cladding was first put into plans that was drawn up for a lesser form of cladding to be used after a re draw of plans.the second choice of cladding seems to be less fire resistance than the first one used in the plans.
Throw into the mix that a report was brought out after a much smaller fire in a block of flats in 2009 elsewhere in London where six deaths occurs.
Said report pointed out that all tower blocks should have water sprinkle installed along with the red tape that holds such work back.
Todate fcuk all has been done in line with that above report as it's seems the report has just been left to one side.
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Why is it that when any government official from whatever party comes out any statement after a disaster like this that I get the impression they are saying one thing but mean the other.
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not trying to turn this thread political, but Theresa May visited the tower block today in private, not meeting any of the residents or survivors. Corbyn did the opposite.
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not trying to turn this thread political, but Theresa May visited the tower block today in private, not meeting any of the residents or survivors. Corbyn did the opposite.
Whoopy do
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http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/full-list-landlord-tory-mps-who-voted-against-making-properties-fit-human-habitation-1537725
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not trying to turn this thread political, but Theresa May visited the tower block today in private, not meeting any of the residents or survivors. Corbyn did the opposite.
so you're saying that May was observing a dignified silence, fulfilling the need for the head of state to make a representative appearance without being willfully intrusive on the grief of the victims, and corbyn was showboating and playing to the gallery for political gain ?
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How long before all this goodwill outside the tower block turns to real anger with police having to draw batons to crack heads when the mob outside in protest will be mainly non locals
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Those people who thought the tower block was ugly and needed cladding to improve the area , Kensington and Chelsea will soon have their way as no doubt the remaining shell will be levelled and replaced buy posh residential PRIVATE properties.
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not trying to turn this thread political, but Theresa May visited the tower block today in private, not meeting any of the residents or survivors. Corbyn did the opposite.
so you're saying that May was observing a dignified silence, fulfilling the need for the head of state to make a representative appearance without being willfully intrusive on the grief of the victims, and corbyn was showboating and playing to the gallery for political gain ?
Sounds like it - although apparently May didn't meet the survivors, victims relatives or the volunteers assisting them because of 'security reasons'. It hasn't yet been explained what these 'security reasons' were and why they didn't apply to her holding up the work of the fire brigade at the scene?
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This fire is, unfortunately, just the latest in a long, long list of preventable disasters in this country since the dawn of the 1980's. Zeebrugge, Kings Cross, Bradford, Hillsborough, Paddington, Marchioness: the list goes on and on. It is symptomatic of our descent to third world status. We have the fifth largest economy in the world. Yet we have a society and a political culture that promotes deregulation and third party outsourcing while starving of funds those charged with monitoring and assessing our safety. In doing so we demote accountability and health and safety. When did you last see a council Trading Standards officer?
I would bring in a corporate manslaughter law that would make corporate and government officials accountable for their actions and their inactions. Unfortunately, the chaos that is Brexit will only promote even more deregulation and removal of oversight - which, of course, is the chief aim of the Brexiteers to better maximise their 'freedom' - aka their profit making capacity.
And if the rumours are true that Conservative governments for the last 8 years have squashed the recommendations coming out of the identical fire in Camberwell, well, I'd throw the key in the Mindanao Trench.
Who's your favorite for the role of scapegoat?
BobG
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I would bring in a corporate manslaughter law that would make corporate and government officials accountable for their actions and their inactions. Unfortunately, the chaos that is Brexit will only promote even more deregulation and removal of oversight - which, of course, is the chief aim of the Brexiteers to better maximise their 'freedom' - aka their profit making capacity.
The law exists already - Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007.
Not many prosecutions under it though, biggest fine handed out has been £700k I think.
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This fire is, unfortunately, just the latest in a long, long list of preventable disasters in this country since the dawn of the 1980's. Zeebrugge, Kings Cross, Bradford, Hillsborough, Paddington, Marchioness: the list goes on and on. It is symptomatic of our descent to third world status. We have the fifth largest economy in the world. Yet we have a society and a political culture that promotes deregulation and third party outsourcing while starving of funds those charged with monitoring and assessing our safety. In doing so we demote accountability and health and safety. When did you last see a council Trading Standards officer?
I would bring in a corporate manslaughter law that would make corporate and government officials accountable for their actions and their inactions. Unfortunately, the chaos that is Brexit will only promote even more deregulation and removal of oversight - which, of course, is the chief aim of the Brexiteers to better maximise their 'freedom' - aka their profit making capacity.
And if the rumours are true that Conservative governments for the last 8 years have squashed the recommendations coming out of the identical fire in Camberwell, well, I'd throw the key in the Mindanao Trench.
Who's your favorite for the role of scapegoat?
BobG
Who's your favourite for the role of scapegoat?
Probably anyone who isn't linked to the Labour party by the way this thread is degenerating.
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:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:
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:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:
What does that 'zzz ' mean ?
That your ignorant and didn't under stand the argument or your ready for bed ?
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:zzz: :zzz: :zzz:
What does that 'zzz ' mean ?
That your ignorant and didn't under stand the argument or your ready for bed ?
:silly:
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It must be nice to be perfect.
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Oh I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but accusing someone else of ignorance when fully displaying your own does tend to make you look rather silly, doesn't it?
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I don't see why we need a public enquiry at great expense when this can be dealt with much quicker by the experts. Someone needs to be honest and say there may not be an instant solution for the remaining tower blocks with the same cladding, but they'll work with all councils to rehouse people if necessary and as soon as they can.
The sooner all these monstrosities are pulled down the better, cladding or otherwise. We should have the wherewithal to build affordable, safe public housing that stays in the public sector.
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Oh I'm not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but accusing someone else of ignorance when fully displaying your own does tend to make you look rather silly, doesn't it?
I suppose it does if you are a member of the spelling police.
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Who's your favorite for the role of scapegoat?
BobG
Probably Lewis Guy, he's the favourite scapegoat on this forum or maybe as an outside bet ATS
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Who's your favorite for the role of scapegoat?
BobG
Eeh these Americanisms that's being brought in by kids!
Anyway it's obviously Farage's fault, or did someone just turn the clock back 12 months?
No fear Corbyn is just about to take over Lilly Allen's mansion
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I would bring in a corporate manslaughter law that would make corporate and government officials accountable for their actions and their inactions. Unfortunately, the chaos that is Brexit will only promote even more deregulation and removal of oversight - which, of course, is the chief aim of the Brexiteers to better maximise their 'freedom' - aka their profit making capacity.
And if the rumours are true that Conservative governments for the last 8 years have squashed the recommendations coming out of the identical fire in Camberwell, well, I'd throw the key in the Mindanao Trench.
BobG
What even that nice pro EU Gavin Barwell (former housing minister)and that nice pro EU Maybe? Billy's Sanctimonious Twaddle would rip someone apart for less blasphemy than that
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Who's your favorite for the role of scapegoat?
BobG
Eeh these Americanisms that's being brought in by kids!
Damn those Americans for writing the Bible!
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I would bring in a corporate manslaughter law that would make corporate and government officials accountable for their actions and their inactions. Unfortunately, the chaos that is Brexit will only promote even more deregulation and removal of oversight - which, of course, is the chief aim of the Brexiteers to better maximise their 'freedom' - aka their profit making capacity.
And if the rumours are true that Conservative governments for the last 8 years have squashed the recommendations coming out of the identical fire in Camberwell, well, I'd throw the key in the Mindanao Trench.
BobG
What even that nice pro EU Gavin Barwell (former housing minister)and that nice pro EU Maybe? Billy's Sanctimonious Twaddle would rip someone apart for less blasphemy than that
f**k me you're a boring Kitson. Not everything comes down to whether you're pro or anti EU.
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Dont it? Ride me sideways, I thought that was what Silly Bollox Tears was getting at 12 months ago
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So send him your drivel in a PM and leave the rest of us out of it then.
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I know that I post the odd views and opinions that are on the different side of the road to many etc etc .
I will do my best to deffend my views opinions within a certian protocall as Iam sure that I never go down the road of point scoring against whoever to back up my points.
I might throw some of my backward humor in here and there.
But I have to point out that on this thread school playground
tactics seems to have cropped up amongst the flak .
Have some decor please.
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not trying to turn this thread political, but Theresa May visited the tower block today in private, not meeting any of the residents or survivors. Corbyn did the opposite.
So not trying to turn this thread political, you've done a good job of that!
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I know that I post the odd views and opinions that are on the different side of the road to many etc etc .
I will do my best to deffend my views opinions within a certian protocall as Iam sure that I never go down the road of point scoring against whoever to back up my points.
I might throw some of my backward humor in here and there.
But I have to point out that on this thread school playground
tactics seems to have cropped up amongst the flak .
Have some decor please.
Yeah, agreed.
Don't try to paper over things.
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Looks like lessons weren't learnt from a fire in Melbourne http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2017-06-15/cladding-on-grenfell-tower-similar-to-2014-melbourne-fire/8619522?pfmredir=sm
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17:15 back in the U.K. and a meeting by the locals outside the Kensington.&Chelsea council building for a peaceful protest is getting a tad out of hand,but nothing major at moment.
Police just standing back really.
350 protesters reported .
Members of media have become targets .
Got this fealing that since it's warm weather nobody is going home and when the street lights come on and sun has gone down replaced by moonlight you will hear first sounds of breaking glass .
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Or the one in Dubai:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-36849171/dubai-fire-blaze-rips-through-residential-skyscraper
Or the one in Southampton:
http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/briefing/firefighter_deaths/11797367.Lessons_learned_from_Shirley_Towers_as_tower_blocks_to_be_fitted_with_sprinklers/
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Members of media have become targets .
Local people unhappy with the Murdoch media - no s**t...
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/16/sun-journalist-grenfell-tower-victim-hospital
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I know that I post the odd views and opinions that are on the different side of the road to many etc etc .
I will do my best to deffend my views opinions within a certian protocall as Iam sure that I never go down the road of point scoring against whoever to back up my points.
I might throw some of my backward humor in here and there.
But I have to point out that on this thread school playground
tactics seems to have cropped up amongst the flak .
Have some decor please.
Yeah, agreed.
Don't try to paper over things.
Funny how it usually starts with Yargo randomly involving himself by ripping into a member who no longer visits the forum for no apparent reason then somehow bringing the EU into something that has absolutely nothing to do with any of the thread.
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Theresa May has found the magic money tree and promised £5mill from it!
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I notice that there are hardly any Anglo Saxon faces on the missing pics, a hodgepodge of races from all over the globe, was the tower block some sort of council halfway house for Refugees or is just the diverse nature of inner city London.what was the Italian couple doing living there if it is all council they appear to be professionals working in London it's strange.
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Watching events unfold the term CATNAPPING springs to mind, cheapest alternative technology necessary to avoid prosecution!
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Make no mistake, there will be local councillors, government ministers, the people from the management company and those that did the refurb shiiting their pants now. Someone will go to jail for a very long time for this. How many are now trying to cover their backs, hence the reason there appears little info coming from anyone
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I notice that there are hardly any Anglo Saxon faces on the missing pics, a hodgepodge of races from all over the globe, was the tower block some sort of council halfway house for Refugees or is just the diverse nature of inner city London.what was the Italian couple doing living there if it is all council they appear to be professionals working in London it's strange.
The term is called white flight and it kicks in when 28% of whatever neighbourhood becomes immigrant .
The whites take more notice once 28% figure is reached ,feal uncomfortable sell and move to wherever .sold properties are snapped up by immigrant then 28% becomes like upton park at west hams old ground.
This term white flight was first noticed in areas of San Francisco back in 1970s .
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It's no wonder that there is slight unrest at a couple of the demonstrations today.
That idiot may was asked on a bbc news interview 'do you think that you got it wrong by not meeting the local people of the block of flats yesterday'
and the stupid cow can not give a simple yes or no answer ,but she answers in a complete different tangent with a answer that takes her to Glasgow to get to Leeds.
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Who is co-ordinating the assistance and information for the disaster relief? It all seems to be volunteers from the local community (some of them are even white). How can people find out if their relatives are in a hospital or placed in a safe house somewhere? Where is the control centre, lists of names? Sticking posters up on a wall as you would for a lost cat.
This is 21st century Britain - London, one of the richest and most technologically advanced cities in the world - you would think it was the wild west. No wonder people are angry.
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Who is co-ordinating the assistance and information for the disaster relief? It all seems to be volunteers from the local community (some of them are even white). How can people find out if their relatives are in a hospital or placed in a safe house somewhere? Where is the control centre, lists of names? Sticking posters up on a wall as you would for a lost cat.
This is 21st century Britain - London, one of the richest and most technologically advanced cities in the world - you would think it was the wild west. No wonder people are angry.
I was thinking exactly the same, I think various officials are covering their own backs so the lack of official co ordination and information is buying them time to engineer a cover up
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It's sorry to hear that people are going from hospital to hospital trying to find out if their lived ones are in there.
Why don't all hospitals involved take snap shots of all people addmitted throu it's doors from the tower block fire .
A quick face shot or two from even a Mobil phone with a name if supplied on admittance .then all info passed on to a persons addmitted to hospital office.
They can then put up photos of all addmitted on walls inside the office with relivent info underneath,and update once a day.
Even if the addmitted are dead have those picture up in a different room or office.
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Who is co-ordinating the assistance and information for the disaster relief? It all seems to be volunteers from the local community (some of them are even white). How can people find out if their relatives are in a hospital or placed in a safe house somewhere? Where is the control centre, lists of names? Sticking posters up on a wall as you would for a lost cat.
This is 21st century Britain - London, one of the richest and most technologically advanced cities in the world - you would think it was the wild west. No wonder people are angry.
Remember Cameron's 'Big Society' vision, where the people do more for each other? This is it in action - rely on people to do stuff for nothing so the government can spend less on doing it.
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I wonder what would have been said if Labour had won the election?
Just a thought.
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You'd have been the first to say it, so no need to wonder.
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I doubt that very much Glyn.
When an event like this happens it is very poor to try to score political points when most decent people are concerned about the welfare of the people directly involved in it.
Shame on you.
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I doubt that very much Glyn.
When an event like this happens it is very poor to try to score political points when most decent people are concerned about the welfare of the people directly involved in it.
Shame on you.
So this:
I wonder what would have been said if Labour had won the election?
Just a thought.
is you showing concern for the welfare of the people directly involved and not trying to score a political point? Shame indeed.
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Responding to your shameful attempt at points scoring to emphasise how bad it looked for you.
I should have remembered how good you are at twisting comments.
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Responding to your shameful attempt at points scoring to emphasise how bad it looked for you.
I should have remembered how good you are at twisting comments.
Yes, direct quotations can be twisted out of all recognition, can't they. :silly:
Apparently this one:
Who's your favourite for the role of scapegoat?
Probably anyone who isn't linked to the Labour party by the way this thread is degenerating.
originally read 'I am incredibly concerned for the victims'. :silly:
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Such a shame that such a tragedy has turned in political point scoring, the activists that have nothing to do with the fire should hang there heads in shame
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Who's your favorite for the role of scapegoat?
BobG
Eeh these Americanisms that's being brought in by kids!
Anyway it's obviously Farage's fault, or did someone just turn the clock back 12 months?
No fear Corbyn is just about to take over Lilly Allen's mansion
Wtf are you on about? You really are a purple helmet,and going off on another totally irrelevant one again.
Nevermind,maybe I'll be called a leftie and drag queen by our in house wit in your defence.
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Such a shame that such a tragedy has turned in political point scoring, the activists that have nothing to do with the fire should hang there heads in shame
There are people living in 4000 tower blocks across the country who wont be sleeping very soundly tonight as they wonder if their home might go up in flames too.
If it wasn't for the activists who have nothing to do with the fire the survivors who have lost everything wouldn't have had anywhere to sleep or be fed for the past 3 days - or begun to collect belongings for them.
But yes there are people who should be hanging their heads in shame...
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Such a shame that such a tragedy has turned in political point scoring, the activists that have nothing to do with the fire should hang there heads in shame
some people just can't resist fanning the flames, can they...
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Well, ignoring the idiot twosome, there are some really intelligent, concerned and informed posts in this thread. I've learned things I didn't know. Thanks chaps.
Did anyone see the interview on the BBC, around 0930 ish today, where some 'grime artist' was talking about what a fireman had said to him last night during a benefit gig this grimey chap was giving? He said that the fireman, who had personal involvement with the tower, insisted that they have already found 200 bodies. The unclean chap repeated the statement too. The BBC itself is saying 30 confirmed plus they 'understand' around 70 other people are dead or missing so they are implying 100 or so.
I can understand the authorities being super cautious about naming names and confirming individuals, but if even the BBC are saying it's a hundred, what is stopping the authorities saying 'we have found xxx bodies but we can't yet identify them?'. Is it to prolong the hope of those who already know their nearest and dearest have been slaughtered? Or is it news management? Who would benefit from such a thing? Why is there so little information, so little leadership, of any sort, coming from our leaders? Even just standing there to be shot at would be a huge public service right now - to take some of the heat out of the anger. But except for Sadiq Khan and Jezza, nobody. So, I'm being forced to wonder how many midnight conferences are going on....? What preservation stories are being researched and reviewed and checked? What scapegoats are being identified?
Last thought: that BBC interview with the Maybot tonight. What a performance! She avoided every single question she was asked; she told us everything we already know ("It was a truly dreadful fire" Really? Well bugger me. "People fled with nothing except the clothes they were wearing". Get away...) and she told us nothing we didn't know - with the sole exception of the measly five miillion quid. I thought she knew she was looking a total tit. How often do Prime Ministers allow themselves to be interrupted and overruled by lowly junior journos? Yet the Maybot allowed it to happen three times in that interview. The woman is embarrassed. She's got nothing to say yet she knows she has to appear to say something. She's frit. She's out of her depth.
I'd make that building structurally secure and then leave it there as it is as a monument to the victims and as a reminder to every politician, newspaper editor, pundit and member of the public where hubris, neglect and negligence leads.
BobG
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Every Politician evades questions and / or gives an answer that becomes a point scoring off the opposition and by god Maybot who is way out of her depth and well exposed now is certainly a class act in that Department
This recent Andrew Marr interview on the Trident accidental misfire was excruciating. Why did she not just say something like " I am not prepared to answer that question just at the moment till I have .....x....y...or z reports! Instead she was like a Butterfly pinned to a Board and made herself look incredibly stupid by making it about Jezzas stance on the Trident system
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfw3n36jg4o
... and Politicians of all colours wonder why the electorate are disenchanted with them
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We are hearing lots about what the national government are doing or not doing, but I've seen nothing about what the local government are doing apart from the odd interview with the mayor of London. Is this fire not the local governments responsibility to organise and administer, maybe we should be hearing from them a little bit more.
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Responding to your shameful attempt at points scoring to emphasise how bad it looked for you.
I should have remembered how good you are at twisting comments.
Yes, direct quotations can be twisted out of all recognition, can't they. :silly:
Apparently this one:
Who's your favourite for the role of scapegoat?
Probably anyone who isn't linked to the Labour party by the way this thread is degenerating.
originally read 'I am incredibly concerned for the victims'. :silly:
My comments taken totally out of context as usual by your ability to put your spin on things.
I have explained my most recent post to you so let me explain the reason I wrote the one about anyone linked to the Labour Party.
it was an alternative response to the numerous posts on here that are in some way winding up the situation (the fire) in an attempt to imply that it is all the fault of the government.
My comment was of course not meant to be read in the way you implied it to be because of course I am concerned about the wellbeing of the victims and their families.
To suggest otherwise is outrageous.
It has been said that a faulty fridge may have started the fire so I suppose that is the fault of the government too?
All in all this has been a tragedy borne out of numerous collective reasons which when all coming together have resulted in the tower burning as it did.
Stopping those events happening together is a bit like trying to second guess where the next terrorist strike is going to happen.
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Who is co-ordinating the assistance and information for the disaster relief? It all seems to be volunteers from the local community (some of them are even white). How can people find out if their relatives are in a hospital or placed in a safe house somewhere? Where is the control centre, lists of names? Sticking posters up on a wall as you would for a lost cat.
This is 21st century Britain - London, one of the richest and most technologically advanced cities in the world - you would think it was the wild west. No wonder people are angry.
Good post , there should be the facilities of a 21st century supposed economic powerhouse ) organising all this . Are there no local military facilities etc. locally where these people can be housed , accounted for properly and made to feel comfortable ?
To remove them from the ONLY thing they have left I. E. THEIR community is the very worst option for the local council to take . Now we have created a whole new shit storm for these poor people. I can see why the mood ( aided and abetted by spotty youfs no doubt ) has changed , desperation has naturally evolved into anger.
Like the disaster in the first place , the organisation had to be a priority and it looks/looked weak . Communication is key here .
Finally , I don't think that Kensington Council have a clue to the exact figures that may have died but they should have an estimate. Could there be upto 100, 150 , 200, 250 dead here . You get the feeling that this is being deliberately underplayed .
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I wouldn't be surprised if there are several hundred bodies in the building,
And I wouldn't like to speculate but there may be a few cases of illegal subletting,if you can pack 32 adults into a 2 up 2 down in Firth park how many can you fit into a 2 bed flat in Des res london?
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I dont think anyone is trying to say the tragedy is all the fault of the government hound - but there do seem to be some people who are trying to deflect any criticism of the government.
A government's role is to keep people safe and secure. If it is not doing so it should be held to account.
After those fires and the reports about them that have been highlighted further up the thread - who thought it was acceptable to allow a high rise building to be clad in a flammable material in 2015? And refurbish it without fitting sprinklers?
Who is leading the response to the disaster relief for the survivors? There were thousands of police and army personal dispatched onto the streets after the Manchester attack - why was it left to volunteers at Grenfell Tower?
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Dont forget these were not all council flats, a lot were owned and/or rented privately so it will be difficult to get a 100% accurate figure as to wwho was there that night.
http://www.propertyindustryeye.com/flats-in-tragic-tower-block-put-up-for-private-sale-and-rent-after-being-acquired-under-right-to-buy/
http://www.standard.co.uk/Front/london-fire-inside-the-2k-grenfell-tower-flats-before-the-blaze-a3565416.html
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Pointed the sub letting factor out early on page one of this thread.
The local council will have a rough idea of how many live in this block ,and maybe since the powers that be seem to be lacking on giving out upto date death numbers could be that they are shocked to the bone of how many deaths they know of allready without a full search of the block.
This is a big IF but IF this block has untold sub letting issues and deaths will this have a bad reflection on the government .
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Such a shame that such a tragedy has turned in political point scoring, the activists that have nothing to do with the fire should hang there heads in shame
There are people living in 4000 tower blocks across the country who wont be sleeping very soundly tonight as they wonder if their home might go up in flames too.
If it wasn't for the activists who have nothing to do with the fire the survivors who have lost everything wouldn't have had anywhere to sleep or be fed for the past 3 days - or begun to collect belongings for them.
But yes there are people who should be hanging their heads in shame...
why the need for labour banners and anti Tory ones? What good is that doing?
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Such a shame that such a tragedy has turned in political point scoring, the activists that have nothing to do with the fire should hang there heads in shame
There are people living in 4000 tower blocks across the country who wont be sleeping very soundly tonight as they wonder if their home might go up in flames too.
If it wasn't for the activists who have nothing to do with the fire the survivors who have lost everything wouldn't have had anywhere to sleep or be fed for the past 3 days - or begun to collect belongings for them.
But yes there are people who should be hanging their heads in shame...
why the need for labour banners and anti Tory ones? What good is that doing?
Some people believe it was aided by austerity. Hence the anti Tory feeling.
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Tory mps voted against a safer homes bill a couple of years ago.
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Saw this and thought it quite interesting
On June 7, 2005, @jeremycorbyn voted to exempt tower blocks built before 2007 from requiring sprinklers. His 9/11. legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541…
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better get the Corbyn resign banners out now then
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better get the Corbyn resign banners out now then
spoils the political agenda that has been going since the fire though
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Saw this, quite interesting
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Pointed the sub letting factor out early on page one of this thread.
The local council will have a rough idea of how many live in this block ,and maybe since the powers that be seem to be lacking on giving out upto date death numbers could be that they are shocked to the bone of how many deaths they know of allready without a full search of the block.
This is a big IF but IF this block has untold sub letting issues and deaths will this have a bad reflection on the government .
out of respect i kept quiet about the subletting do you want spot checks on who is living in flats ? blame the ALMO ??
this SUBLETTING AND WORSE has always gone on In the London Boroughs
but believe it or not their are people in London who exist as two or more people -- once heard about one Etritrean woman political refugee (yet family back home in Etritrea servants and all !!) who had to sign a bit of paper and started signing a different name to what she was known as in her job -- she had a flat with a London Housing association and when the person who saw it happen (signature gaff) left the company the Eritrean left pdq before her lack of ability was found out -- specialised in playing the "race" card against someone who was not born in the uk as she couldn't do the job properly
presume she "possibly" had 2 flats as well ?? you wouldn't believe what scams used to go on
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Saw this, quite interesting
The only interesting thing about that list is that you think it is interesting.
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Saw this, quite interesting
The only interesting thing about that list is that you think it is interesting.
It's interesting that you make me laugh
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Saw this, quite interesting
The only interesting thing about that list is that you think it is interesting.
it is interesting because the people kicking off are having a go at the wrong people. As I said earlier it fits the agenda
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Saw this and thought it quite interesting
On June 7, 2005, @jeremycorbyn voted to exempt tower blocks built before 2007 from requiring sprinklers. His 9/11. legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541…
It's not real x
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Saw this and thought it quite interesting
On June 7, 2005, @jeremycorbyn voted to exempt tower blocks built before 2007 from requiring sprinklers. His 9/11. legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541…
It's not real x
Yep, seems to be completely untrue. It seems it relates to a Statutory Instrument that, (a) relates to non-domestic buildings; (b) doesn't mention the word sprinkler; and (c) wasn't voted on!
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http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?mpn=Jeremy_Corbyn&mpc=Islington_North&house=commons&display=allvotes#divisions (http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/mp.php?mpn=Jeremy_Corbyn&mpc=Islington_North&house=commons&display=allvotes#divisions)
He doesn't seem to have voted on the day in question either.
I might go on Twitter and post some complete b*llocks and see if it gets retweeted so people end up believing it. Might go with "David Cameron was once sucked off by a pig". Oh, wait a minute...
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Is anyone going to say that glosterreds post about the flats and the way they were run is untrue?
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Since the beginning of the current brand of Toryism in 1979 we have had a long series of wholly avoidable disasters. A lot of people have died. Individually, each and every one had their own cause, their own failures. Collectively they all occurred through lack of oversight and lack of regulation. It's all very well to sweep away regulations and inspection officers in the name of economy, but there are never any free lunches are there? There's always a price to be paid. It's people that have been paying it - with their lives.
As for the Maybot, her principal and overriding responsbility is the safety and well being of the people comprising the nation. Yes. the Council have done sod all. Yes. the Chief Exec of Kensington Council must have the balls of a gnat. But when every Council has been bled so dry that many are now in the desparate position of having to sell capital assets to fund operational expenditure, you can't expect all that much of any Council. And that failure is the responsibility of government. I note too that the only time fire regulations have been updated in the last dozen years was under Tony Blair's leadership. The failure to update them since, especially after previous experiences going back 8 years, is the responsibility of successive Tory governments. They have all failed to discharge their prime responsibilty. They are therefore manifestly, obviously and clearly, unfit to govern. The pathetic behaviour of the Maybot simply drives home the point. Is she really the best they can find? Oh dear, oh dear.
BobG
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Saw this and thought it quite interesting
On June 7, 2005, @jeremycorbyn voted to exempt tower blocks built before 2007 from requiring sprinklers. His 9/11. legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2005/1541…
It's not real x
aye it's about as real as what's posted in the daily mirror
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Is anyone going to say that glosterreds post about the flats and the way they were run is untrue?
Well the local council of "Kensington and Chelsea London Borough Council" is ruled by a Tory majority. 40 seats to Labour 7 (3 Lib Dems). The flammable cladding was added before Sadiq Khan became Mayor aswell.
Also, Emma Coad sitting on the KCTMO doesn't mean much, it'd be 1 v 15 (If I counted right). That board did also have at least 3 Conservative members on it (Maighread Condon-Simmonds, Quentin Marshall & Elizabeth Campbell).
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So the post isn't untrue then?
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Not untrue, no.
However, I do seem to be witnessing the right wing seeing themselves being smeared in mud throughout the Grenfell tower travesty and basically pointing going "Well you had 1 board member on the KCTMO!! She could have done something!!" while hiding away their 3 board members.
I guess it's just a defence mechanism.
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Or a failure to accept a truth when it hits them between the eyes Donny....
Cheers
BobG
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I'm not bothered which colour politically the people responsible are from, the people responsible should be jailed, full stop. Right now there seems to be people from all sides trying to save their sorry necks throwing mud where ever it will stick
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Agreed on that Filo but it is just their survival ( maybe the wrong word under the circumstances) instincts.
It is hard though isn't it to know where the next disaster that was preventable will happen.
Hindsight is a wonderful thing.
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So is foresight Hound. You know, planning, resources, inspecting. Boring stuff I know. But, amazingly, the lack of it has had demonstrably catastrophic effects for a generation now.
BobG
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Such a shame that such a tragedy has turned in political point scoring, the activists that have nothing to do with the fire should hang there heads in shame
Very true
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Seen on social media that they've been told not to include people who threw themselves out of windows in the body count because they didn't die directly in the fire, according to a fireman.
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Seen on social media that they've been told not to include people who threw themselves out of windows in the body count because they didn't die directly in the fire, according to a fireman.
A bit daft. They died as a result of the fire. If there wasn't a fire they wouldn't have jumped out of a window.
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Without a doubt they did. How can anyone NOT include them
They counted the poor people who tossed themselves in the Thames (taking their chances) rather than be rammed by a Van so is there a demonstrable difference.
Mind you for a long while the people who hurled themselves out of the World Trade Centre were treated a little differently (a bit like cowards if I remember correctly) just for making a choice such as a) do I stand here getting baked alive catching fire etc and with no hope of rescue at all OR b) do I jump
AND if I jump will it be a) to a certain but swift death which remaining in the Tower will still bring or b) to a miraculous survival against all the odds ? What a choice to have to make
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Im delighted that someone has the same degree of cynicism as I do. My sympathy evaporated after the mob started to "protest".
It is my experience that when the mob (poor, oppressed, unemployed people) feel the necessity to demonstrate it always results in the looting of the local Currys.
The blame that is being allocated to the conservative government is laughable. This is American blame culture. The fact that hundreds of Syrians and burkah wearing types were crammed into one tower block....see Tony Blair and his failed efforts at multi-culturalism, the worst social experiment since the genocide.
Im going to try wearing a balaclava when the bank open on monday, I wonder how far I will get ? Ot what about an all white burkah with a white pointy hat and full face mask ? The hipocrisy is vile. Im utterly sick of this whole sorry mess and the placatory namby pamby socialist dogma that has systematically denuded British values and culture to the point where we see ourselves as a B+B for the flotsam of the planet incapable of supporting itself outside of Europe.
Crowds gather outside church for vigil after Grenfell Tower blaze (http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/15348057.Crowds_gather_outside_church_for_vigil_after_Grenfell_Tower_blaze/)
(http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/resources/images/6463309.jpg?display=1&htype=0&type=responsive-gallery)
candles - drapes - wrapping paper - obvious fire hazard, IMHO....
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Who is co-ordinating the assistance and information for the disaster relief? It all seems to be volunteers from the local community (some of them are even white). How can people find out if their relatives are in a hospital or placed in a safe house somewhere? Where is the control centre, lists of names? Sticking posters up on a wall as you would for a lost cat.
This is 21st century Britain - London, one of the richest and most technologically advanced cities in the world - you would think it was the wild west. No wonder people are angry.
Remember Cameron's 'Big Society' vision, where the people do more for each other? This is it in action - rely on people to do stuff for nothing so the government can spend less on doing it.
I suppose its the same problem we encountered yesterday. Its very difficult to determine which is the Linda McCartney and which is the Waitrose sausage on the barbeque.
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Seen on social media that they've been told not to include people who threw themselves out of windows in the body count because they didn't die directly in the fire, according to a fireman.
Surely that has got to be a load of poppycock redj .
It's on social media so I take it that it's not official and just gossip.
Christ allmighty god if it becomes official thou .i can't even take on board that were even talking
about not including people that threw them sens out of a window ffs.
Just so that I can understand this why would anyone say that you can't include any window jumpers from the fire .
This mean that anyone that jumped out of a window and survived the jump are not counted in the number of people that have survived the fire.
It all seems like scotch mist to me
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It all goes back to what I have said throughout this thread Oslo, there is no-one co-ordinating the disaster relief - or being a source of accurate information - for this tragedy.
Even now, lunchtime Sunday, when the government announced this morning a special team had been drafted in, I am watching a BBC reporter at the scene saying he doesnt notice any difference on the ground.
Thank goodness for all those political activists, providing food kitchens, manning church halls, collecting clothes, who dont have anything to do with the fire or nothing would be getting done. Other than politicians trying to avoid and shift the blame and trot out the latest 'spin' on the 'facts'.
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Looks like somebody could be in big trouble the cladding used is banned in the UK
http://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/grenfell-tower-cladding-banned-in-uk-reveals-chancellor/ar-BBCP8M3?li=AAmiR2Z&ocid=spartandhp
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If as above states the cladding type used was banned in the U.K. and if your in the cladding industry it's your job to know this .
So with the above the book starts with that company rydon that took on the job that installed the cladding.this now leaves every previous job that they have done to be fine tooth combed.
Next for the chopping block is the fcukwit(s) that signed the job off after a full inspection.
It's their job to check and sign off this work that it's all done correctly and false within all health and safety issues > so it's also their job to know what types of cladding are a YES or NO.
Maybe Iam as slack as pig shit but how can the type of banned cladding used get by two different so called specialists > obvious answers > fools with jobs or brown envelopes .
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If as above states the cladding type used was banned in the U.K. and if your in the cladding industry it's your job to know this .
So with the above the book starts with that company rydon that took on the job that installed the cladding.this now leaves every previous job that they have done to be fine tooth combed.
Next for the chopping block is the fcukwit(s) that signed the job off after a full inspection.
It's their job to check and sign off this work that it's all done correctly and false within all health and safety issues > so it's also their job to know what types of cladding are a YES or NO.
Maybe Iam as slack as pig shit but how can the type of banned cladding used get by two different so called specialists > obvious answers > fools with jobs or brown envelopes .
Or because the job has to go to the lowest bidder.
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If as above states the cladding type used was banned in the U.K. and if your in the cladding industry it's your job to know this .
So with the above the book starts with that company rydon that took on the job that installed the cladding.this now leaves every previous job that they have done to be fine tooth combed.
Next for the chopping block is the fcukwit(s) that signed the job off after a full inspection.
It's their job to check and sign off this work that it's all done correctly and false within all health and safety issues > so it's also their job to know what types of cladding are a YES or NO.
Maybe Iam as slack as pig shit but how can the type of banned cladding used get by two different so called specialists > obvious answers > fools with jobs or brown envelopes .
Or because the job has to go to the lowest bidder.
Even so no excuse to use banned materials
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Rydon are a terrible company who really try to cut corners to make more profit - and I do mean cut corners
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Im delighted that someone has the same degree of cynicism as I do. My sympathy evaporated after the mob started to "protest".
It is my experience that when the mob (poor, oppressed, unemployed people) feel the necessity to demonstrate it always results in the looting of the local Currys.
The blame that is being allocated to the conservative government is laughable. This is American blame culture. The fact that hundreds of Syrians and burkah wearing types were crammed into one tower block....see Tony Blair and his failed efforts at multi-culturalism, the worst social experiment since the genocide.
Im going to try wearing a balaclava when the bank open on monday, I wonder how far I will get ? Ot what about an all white burkah with a white pointy hat and full face mask ? The hipocrisy is vile. Im utterly sick of this whole sorry mess and the placatory namby pamby socialist dogma that has systematically denuded British values and culture to the point where we see ourselves as a B+B for the flotsam of the planet incapable of supporting itself outside of Europe.
Crowds gather outside church for vigil after Grenfell Tower blaze (http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/news/15348057.Crowds_gather_outside_church_for_vigil_after_Grenfell_Tower_blaze/)
(http://www.newsshopper.co.uk/resources/images/6463309.jpg?display=1&htype=0&type=responsive-gallery)
candles - drapes - wrapping paper - obvious fire hazard, IMHO....
You have put it a far better way than what I was thinking .since this was a social housing block i was quite shocked at the amount of different cultures that were housed in this block.
Don't want to sound racist here but how can I ask this the correct way > where are all the white British social persons housed?
Is this a case of all immigrants wanting or heading into London only.
I think they are taking the piss when they state that they MUST be rehoused in the exact same area when there close to 2000 on the housing waiting list ,to which my guess 3/4 will be immigrant.
They get rehoused where ever they are found a property either that be London borough of kensington&chelses or Tim buck too .
Ok it's true to say that they have been shat on but that can't hold a gun to the governments head on where they are re housed .
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If as above states the cladding type used was banned in the U.K. and if your in the cladding industry it's your job to know this .
So with the above the book starts with that company rydon that took on the job that installed the cladding.this now leaves every previous job that they have done to be fine tooth combed.
Next for the chopping block is the fcukwit(s) that signed the job off after a full inspection.
It's their job to check and sign off this work that it's all done correctly and false within all health and safety issues > so it's also their job to know what types of cladding are a YES or NO.
Maybe Iam as slack as pig shit but how can the type of banned cladding used get by two different so called specialists > obvious answers > fools with jobs or brown envelopes .
Or because the job has to go to the lowest bidder.
When a company puts a job offer in don't whoever take a look at the specfications of the job etc etc.
Hence to say the banned cladding should have been picked up then aswell as said cladding must have been on the spec?
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Thats the management of Rydon and the planning officer going to jail!
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A hugely important point this of course because it changes the emphasis from the Building Regulations not being up to standard (and learning the lessons of these past fires) to the architects', planning officers, contractors and building control not doing their job properly - and being criminally negligent.
It's been a while since I worked in the building industry and I never did this type of work anyway, but if the Building Regs were infringed I am surprised it hasn't been mentioned until now. You would have thought one of these experts on cladding and fire safety would have said before now.
So had a quick look on line and this is the best I can come up with from a Building Design website:
there is no suggestion that building regulations were infringed or the work was sub-standard. The building regulations say external walls should resist the spread of fire, not that they should be constructed from non-combustible materials.
The panel’s aluminium facing is resistant to the surface spread of flame but this would be of little use where the intensity of the fire would quickly breach the thin aluminium facing, which has a relatively low melting point.
The article then goes on to say that there has long been a discussion over changing this regulation but nothing had been done.
http://www.bdonline.co.uk/grenfell-tower-should-this-cladding-be-allowed?/5088261.article
I am not saying Hammond is wrong - but I cant find anything to say he is right. I am sure we will hear more about cladding regulations in the days to come.
Worrying that same time of illegal cladding is on 30000 other buildings, including 87 tower blocks, across the UK tho, that's a lot of negligent officials unaware of the regulations.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/30000-buildings-in-uk-are-covered-in-the-same-cladding-as-grenfell-tower-6713539/
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It has n't been mentioned till now because they've probably been destroying any incriminating evidence
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Oh Dear;
People are sharing this painful David Cameron quote on health and safety | indy100 (https://www.indy100.com/article/david-cameron-health-and-safety-regulations-policy-2012-quote-7796056)
What we need now is a bonfire of the red tape...or not!
There's more bad news;
Grenfell Tower fire assessments carried out at "competitive" price by firm 'willing to challenge excessive safety rules' - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/grenfell-tower-fire-assessments-carried-10636588?ICID=FB_mirror_main)
Looking forward to the next set of explanations!
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A bit more detail from ITV:
John Cowley, managing director of CEP (who manufactured the panels) said: "Reynobond PE is not banned in the UK."
"Current building regulations allow its use in both low-rise and high-rise structures," Mr Cowley added.
"The key question now is whether the overall design of the building's complete exterior was properly tested and subsequently signed off by the relevant authorities including the fire officer, building compliance officer and architect before commencement of the project," Mr Cowley added.
He has also said the Chancellor's comments were "frivolous and ill-informed - if the cladding was banned we would not be selling it."
http://www.itv.com/news/2017-06-18/cladding-used-on-grenfell-tower-is-banned-in-the-uk-says-hammond/
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I'm afraid this whole tragic incident is swarming with various people who's priority is to cover their arses; from the government to the council to the building companies...meanwhile there's hundreds of poor buggers who've lost absolutely everything. Shameful
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Why have the police not taken controll of any records on data or paper that the construction company rydon will have on its files so they can't destroy ,just in case.
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Looks like they've taken your advice Oslo
At s guess Rydon are going under the bus
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according to reports Camden Council are evacuating a hundred and odd families into emergency accommodation from one of their high rises tonight
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Looks like they've taken your advice Oslo
At s guess Rydon are going under the bus
I don't think rydon are been thrown under the bus if they have been using a banned item ,they deserve what they get
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ROB W please put your head under water and don't come back up again. The world will be far better off without you and your sick ideas in it !!
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Forgot to add nof as another absolute scumbag ! He's so stupid he didn't even have the gumption to learn to read and write properly when he was at school and now he thinks we even give a shit about the tripe he writes.
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Forgot to add nof as another absolute scumbag !
OUCH Ouch ouch ,that hurt
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Sub letting > pointed this issue out from the very start of this thread and this issue will hit the front pages after final body count and number of reported that got out of the fire as the tow numbers added together will shock everyone.
It's a criminal offence to sub let ,but it's rife across London for obvious reasons.
With government paying £5500 to effected family's and £20,000 been paid from the charity that had collected money and add in that local council will re house some family's in a very very high class up market local block of flats > will have anyone that has sub let doing their upmost to cash in.
How can the local council work out if flat A is passed onto mr smith and his family through social housing ,for said flat to be sub let by mr smith to a mr jones mr Toby mr jug and mr invisible .
This sub letting issue has the possibility to shock council housing to its core.
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I have no idea of the real circumstances and actions and lack of actions over the years since that place was built, but politically speaking, there is a clear advantage in making sure the enquiry is led towards looking at the performance of the inspectors, the Council, the architects, the suppliers and the builders - rather than the regulations. In amongst all that lot there will inevitably be some dirt that can be used to divert all the attention required. There will have been an ad hoc and entirely unofficial group this past week thinking through how to manage the future course of events in the right directions. The enquiry chairman will be chosen extremely carefully too... It'll be more than interesting to read the terms of reference as well. Guess who has the power to choose the Chairman AND approve or send back the terms of reference for further consideration?!
BobG
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Oslo wasn't trying to defend Rydon it is deserved
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Yes, that's why people were asking for an inquest rather than an inquiry Bob. An inquest could look into all the circumstances behind this fire, including the role of the state in passing building/fire regulation - an inquiry will do as you suggest above.
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Oslo appears to be doing what the right wing do at times like this - divert attention from the guilty and negligent, the government, Kensington Council and their tenants organisation, by attempting to blame the victims for being there in 'sub-lets'. So what.
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Iam only pointing out what is what it's not my issue how it looks or sounds.
I don't blame the victims for the fire as that is with rydon and the local council and The housing management company as I said this from the very first post.
You only have to read between the lines from what the police have reported to workout that the sub let issue is on their minds aswell.
This also will blow open the part that council housing officers play in this sub let scam ,as they must be in a sleep walking mode.
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The building would've set fire regardless of whether the bloke in the flat whose fridge blew up was there on a sub let or not. Absolutely f**k all to do with what happened to that tower.
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But the sub let will have a huge effect on the final number that died and the knock on effect of re housing issue .
It has everything to do with this fire block issue .if sub letting was not such a issue in London and blind eyes turned to it my guess is that young couple who had only been in U.K. For 3 months would not have perished up on floor 21 in the fire.
Then you bring in the turning of blind eyes amongst the local council housing officers to sub letting and a certian picture comes out .
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But even if they hadn't been there the fire would have happened.
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But even if they hadn't been there the fire would have happened.
Oh c'mon, everybody knows that it was subletting that made the fridge explode...! ;)
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What I find interesting is that everyone was quick to blame the tories, yet it seems several other places that are labour run now have been in danger and the said people don't think that labour should be held accountable
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But even if they hadn't been there the fire would have happened.
Oh c'mon, everybody knows that it was subletting that made the fridge explode...! ;)
For the 3rd time Iam pointing out that the sub let issues will be far higher than the amount of residents that were down on the poll register to this high tower block.
In other words if the local council have X amount of persons living in this block the true number will be XXX amount due to mainly the sub let issues,and when a final dead figure is brought out questions will be asked as 2+2 will suddenly = 5/6/ or 7
To counter the so called sub letting of council flats a housing officer is supposed to visit each flat once a year to check who is living in what council housing flat and is in within the council rent records and agreements signed by both party's.
The above is obviously not happening .
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But even if they hadn't been there the fire would have happened.
Oh c'mon, everybody knows that it was subletting that made the fridge explode...! ;)
For the 3rd time Iam pointing out that the sub let issues will be far higher than the amount of residents that were down on the poll register to this high tower block.
In other words if the local council have X amount of persons living in this block the true number will be XXX amount due to mainly the sub let issues,and when a final dead figure is brought out questions will be asked as 2+2 will suddenly = 5/6/ or 7
To counter the so called sub letting of council flats a housing officer is supposed to visit each flat once a year to check who is living in what council housing flat and is in within the council rent records and agreements signed by both party's.
The above is obviously not happening .
Because councils are being squeezed by having their central government funding slashed. They've had to make cuts all over the place. The library services have been decimated, for example. I doubt whether regulatory enforcement has escaped unscathed.
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What I find interesting is that everyone was quick to blame the tories, yet it seems several other places that are labour run now have been in danger and the said people don't think that labour should be held accountable
INdeed it shows the militism of the left.
Imagine if Tory councils were evacuating residents and may was at a music festival basically campaigning.....
Perhaps he should resign also given that's what the left wanted last week from Tory leaders? Thought not.
It's quite an interesting one the whole subject which I see quite often in the company I work for. Sadly I can't talk about it but some of the decisions made by councils stagger me.
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That's b*llocks Glynn because housing officers are paid by councils to do a job.
So the money is there to pay persons to do a job ,but said job is not been done ,or its be done very very poorly .
The amount of immigrants that were seen on tv that came out of that recent burned down tower block shocked me .
The amount of ethnic housing officers across whole of London will not shock me .
Family smith Aa> they get a house via social housing in London
Family smith Ab > also get a property via social housing in London
Family's Aa and Ab all then move into a private rented house all together and sub let both their previous social housing at a much higher sub let price that the local council was charging them.
All monies gained are shared out between the two family's in the one house via the two sub lets.
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That's b*llocks Glynn because housing officers are paid by councils to do a job.
So the money is there to pay persons to do a job ,but said job is not been done ,or its be done very very poorly .
The amount of immigrants that were seen on tv that came out of that recent burned down tower block shocked me .
The amount of ethnic housing officers across whole of London will not shock me .
Family smith Aa> they get a house via social housing in London
Family smith Ab > also get a property via social housing in London
Family's Aa and Ab all then move into a private rented house all together and sub let both their previous social housing at a much higher sub let price that the local council was charging them.
All monies gained are shared out between the two family's in the one house via the two sub lets.
The money isn't there though.
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What I find interesting is that everyone was quick to blame the tories, yet it seems several other places that are labour run now have been in danger and the said people don't think that labour should be held accountable
INdeed it shows the militism of the left.
Imagine if Tory councils were evacuating residents and may was at a music festival basically campaigning.....
Perhaps he should resign also given that's what the left wanted last week from Tory leaders? Thought not.
It's quite an interesting one the whole subject which I see quite often in the company I work for. Sadly I can't talk about it but some of the decisions made by councils stagger me.
This is quite funny to me how what seemed to me left wing or far left wing were going mental demanding mays head etc etc ,with marches and even mixing in with local Kensington and chelsea
residents during protest.
Now that some Labour held councils across London are in the line of fire mums the word from that lot,
as they look on how to pass book of blame on elsewhere.
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The protests were hijacked by the SWP, by some accounts. Most credible people on the left wing think they're f**king idiots anyway.
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That's b*llocks Glynn because housing officers are paid by councils to do a job.
So the money is there to pay persons to do a job ,but said job is not been done ,or its be done very very poorly .
The amount of immigrants that were seen on tv that came out of that recent burned down tower block shocked me .
The amount of ethnic housing officers across whole of London will not shock me .
Family smith Aa> they get a house via social housing in London
Family smith Ab > also get a property via social housing in London
Family's Aa and Ab all then move into a private rented house all together and sub let both their previous social housing at a much higher sub let price that the local council was charging them.
All monies gained are shared out between the two family's in the one house via the two sub lets.
The money isn't there though.
It is there Glynn as they have a job and are getting paid to do such job via a monthly wage.
The fact that they are not doing their job is a different issue and why the sub let culture is rife in London.
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The protests were hijacked by the SWP, by some accounts. Most credible people on the left wing think they're f**king idiots anyway.
Thanks for that input redj as it was bugging me if it was a loon group within a not as much loon group but still loony to extents .
So you have left wing
Far left wing
and the SWP who are even beyond the far left wings likes .
Suppose the exact can be said for the right wing side of society.
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SWP were always trying to stir things up when we were on strike at pit
Always made me laugh because there didn't seem to be one of them that was a worker
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SWP were always trying to stir things up when we were on strike at pit
Always made me laugh because there didn't seem to be one of them that was a worker
SWP > would that be correct to say middle/upper class tossers with loads of spare time on their hands with parents to fall back on .
I must walk round with my eyes and ears shut as it's first time they have come o my attention thanks to redj .
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The death toll might be far lower if only the people who were supposed to be in the flat were though.
Somebody subletting might also fill the flat with cheap combustible furniture rather than someone who is actually making it a home.
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SWP were always trying to stir things up when we were on strike at pit
Always made me laugh because there didn't seem to be one of them that was a worker
SWP > would that be correct to say middle/upper class tossers with loads of spare time on their hands with parents to fall back on .
I must walk round with my eyes and ears shut as it's first time they have come o my attention thanks to redj .
Some of them are. Some of them are genuine working class people but the type that you'd typically see labelled "rentamob". They're like the left wing equivalent of the BNP, nobody actually takes them seriously but they're just kind of there and won't f**k off.
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Money has always been tight when it comes to high rise, they are relics of the sixties and every single one of them is a 'Money Pit' when it comes to maintenance.
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Correct Sproty
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What I find interesting is that everyone was quick to blame the tories, yet it seems several other places that are labour run now have been in danger and the said people don't think that labour should be held accountable
INdeed it shows the militism of the left.
Imagine if Tory councils were evacuating residents and may was at a music festival basically campaigning.....
Perhaps he should resign also given that's what the left wanted last week from Tory leaders? Thought not.
Yes because evacuation of residents from a potentially dangerous building and the short term inconveinience this causes is just the same as dozens (hundreds) of people burning to death in their own homes due to negligence, incompetance, poor regulations and enforcement - and complete chaos that ensued from what passed as the authorities for days afterwards.
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What I find interesting is that everyone was quick to blame the tories, yet it seems several other places that are labour run now have been in danger and the said people don't think that labour should be held accountable
INdeed it shows the militism of the left.
Imagine if Tory councils were evacuating residents and may was at a music festival basically campaigning.....
Perhaps he should resign also given that's what the left wanted last week from Tory leaders? Thought not.
Yes because evacuation of residents from a potentially dangerous building and the short term inconveinience this causes is just the same as dozens (hundreds) of people burning to death in their own homes due to negligence, incompetance, poor regulations and enforcement - and complete chaos that ensued from what passed as the authorities for days afterwards.
And it happened in that block purely by chance it could have been in areas controlled by any party and could have had the same result.
The point is those councils allowed the same materials in. The question is did these people know the facts to make a decision which should have been given by contractors? If they did then it appears in my eyes to be a blame. If they didn't, why weren't the questions asked?
I guess overall my point is, is it the fault of politicians? If they didn't directly make the decision then it is not in my view.
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What I find interesting is that everyone was quick to blame the tories, yet it seems several other places that are labour run now have been in danger and the said people don't think that labour should be held accountable
INdeed it shows the militism of the left.
Imagine if Tory councils were evacuating residents and may was at a music festival basically campaigning.....
Perhaps he should resign also given that's what the left wanted last week from Tory leaders? Thought not.
Yes because evacuation of residents from a potentially dangerous building and the short term inconveinience this causes is just the same as dozens (hundreds) of people burning to death in their own homes due to negligence, incompetance, poor regulations and enforcement - and complete chaos that ensued from what passed as the authorities for days afterwards.
And it happened in that block purely by chance it could have been in areas controlled by any party and could have had the same result.
The point is those councils allowed the same materials in. The question is did these people know the facts to make a decision which should have been given by contractors? If they did then it appears in my eyes to be a blame. If they didn't, why weren't the questions asked?
I guess overall my point is, is it the fault of politicians? If they didn't directly make the decision then it is not in my view.
As every building across the country that has been checked so far has failed a new chack, it's looking more and more like the material has been passed by inspectors because it was deemed safe by somebody else higher up the chain.
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Glynn you seem to have hit the nail on the head yet again I guess.
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What I find interesting is that everyone was quick to blame the tories, yet it seems several other places that are labour run now have been in danger and the said people don't think that labour should be held accountable
INdeed it shows the militism of the left.
Imagine if Tory councils were evacuating residents and may was at a music festival basically campaigning.....
Perhaps he should resign also given that's what the left wanted last week from Tory leaders? Thought not.
Yes because evacuation of residents from a potentially dangerous building and the short term inconveinience this causes is just the same as dozens (hundreds) of people burning to death in their own homes due to negligence, incompetance, poor regulations and enforcement - and complete chaos that ensued from what passed as the authorities for days afterwards.
And it happened in that block purely by chance it could have been in areas controlled by any party and could have had the same result.
The point is those councils allowed the same materials in. The question is did these people know the facts to make a decision which should have been given by contractors? If they did then it appears in my eyes to be a blame. If they didn't, why weren't the questions asked?
I guess overall my point is, is it the fault of politicians? If they didn't directly make the decision then it is not in my view.
This is at the heart of the inquest v inquiry question. Will the investigation that is being set up into Grenfell be a full ranging one looking into government involvement in drafting (or not) of fire precaution, building control and planning - or will it be a tightly controlled one just looking into the practical causes of this fire?
It's irrelevant what colour a council is when they make the decision to build or renovate council housing - because the practical steps and safety control of that construction is managed and overseen by their staff who are non-political.
Where the difference comes in is the amount of funds that a particular council might allocate to social hosing projects. Kensington for example have a reserve of £267million (and gave the richest council tax payers a refund not so long ago) - yet went for this cladding because it was the cheapest option. In contrast Camden have reserves of about £60million.
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And that, Wilts, is THE question of the year: "Will the investigation that is being set up into Grenfell be a full ranging one looking into government involvement in drafting (or not) of fire precaution, building control and planning - or will it be a tightly controlled one just looking into the practical causes of this fire?"
I know which way I'm betting.
Another thought: why has no one really commented on the impact that the prolonged squeeze on income, assets and cash has had on the ability of any council, anywhere, to do the job that statutorily they are supposed to do? Like I mentioned a week or two back, when was the last time you saw a Trading Standards officer for example? Where I live something over 80% of the annual child protection budget now goes into investigating allegations - which you may think is a fine and proper thing to do - until you realise that having done an investigation there is nothing, nothing, left with which to implement any solution. Buck passing and arse covering is the entire name of the game after various recent scandals (Oh my God.... Not another scandal of a council not doing something it should have? Anyone care to hazard a guess what all these scandals have in common?) I'm not making this up. I have personal knowledge. And I live in a very well heeled and affluent part of the world too. What's it like in Attercliffe or Brightside or somewhere?
BobG
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And that, Wilts, is THE question of the year: "Will the investigation that is being set up into Grenfell be a full ranging one looking into government involvement in drafting (or not) of fire precaution, building control and planning - or will it be a tightly controlled one just looking into the practical causes of this fire?"
I know which way I'm betting.
Another thought: why has no one really commented on the impact that the prolonged squeeze on income, assets and cash has had on the ability of any council, anywhere, to do the job that statutorily they are supposed to do? Like I mentioned a week or two back, when was the last time you saw a Trading Standards officer for example? Where I live something over 80% of the annual child protection budget now goes into investigating allegations - which you may think is a fine and proper thing to do - until you realise that having done an investigation there is nothing, nothing left with which to implement any solution. Buck passing and arse covering is the entire name of the game now. I'm not making this up either. I have personal knowledge. And I live in a very well heeled and affluent part of the world too. So what's it like in Attercliffe or Brightside or somewhere?
BobG
Apparently NOF thinks they can do just as good a job with less money, people and resources...
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An interesting little snippet from this week's Private Eye's Number Crunching:
6 hours: Length of a fire safety inspection prior to the Conservatives' Cutting Red Tape Initiative, launched in 2015 to 'get rid of unnecessary bureaucracy'.
45 minutes: Length of fire safety inspections after it for 'businesses with good safety records...allowing managers to quickly get back to their day job'.
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An interesting little snippet from this week's Private Eye's Number Crunching:
6 hours: Length of a fire safety inspection prior to the Conservatives' Cutting Red Tape Initiative, launched in 2015 to 'get rid of unnecessary bureaucracy'.
45 minutes: Length of fire safety inspections after it for 'businesses with good safety records...allowing managers to quickly get back to their day job'.
just luv it when people QUOTE about things they know nothing about yes we all know about periodic dry risers tests etc
if the fridge making industry chose IN 2010 to bury their heads in 2010 landlords NEEDED TO BORROW MY CRYSTAL BALL
has anyone thought of googling exploding fridges - I LEARNED A LOT PDQ
http://cr4.globalspec.com/blogentry/13314/The-Ignored-Disaster-Exploding-Refrigerators
The Ignored Disaster: Exploding Refrigerators
Posted July 17, 2010 8:11 AM
The Ignored Disaster: Exploding Refrigerators
Posted July 17, 2010 8:11 AM
The planet seems to be consumed by disasters these days, natural and man-made. From massive oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico to earthquakes to erupting volcanoes. Yet there's another potential disaster looming in either the frozen food section of your local mega-mart, or even the residential model refrigerator you keep inside your office kitchen (we have a basic GE model at my dad's commercial construction company).
The looming disaster? Exploding fridges.
How exactly do refrigerators explode? Gasses that become trapped and not allowed to properly vent can easily become ignited by a single spark. Or leaking isobutene can also cause both sudden explosion and fire.
Okay, I know what you're thinking. The probability of your home/workplace refrigerator exploding or the supermarket frozen food section going nuclear is about as likely as your winning the Mega Millions lottery. Yet some industry experts, like Neil Everitt of ACR News, view exploding refrigerators as a potential life threatening disaster in the making.
"The most worrying thing about… exploding fridge cases," he writes in his monthly column, "is what I see as a failure by the industry to take these events seriously. The chaos caused by an exploding fridge, its potential to cause injury and the ramifications for this industry, have not been fully recognized."
Everitt also makes a point of differentiating between actual explosions and fires. While a fire is usually preceded by smoke, or an alarm, or both, explosions happen spontaneously and without warning. They can cause serious injury or death, as was the case with a rash of explosions that occurred recently in England.
Do you see exploding refrigerators as a real threat? And if so, what should the industry do to make them safer?The Ignored Disaster: Exploding Refrigerators
Posted July 17, 2010 8:11 AM
The planet seems to be consumed by disasters these days, natural and man-made. From massive oil spills in the Gulf of Mexico to earthquakes to erupting volcanoes. Yet there's another potential disaster looming in either the frozen food section of your local mega-mart, or even the residential model refrigerator you keep inside your office kitchen (we have a basic GE model at my dad's commercial construction company).
The looming disaster? Exploding fridges.
How exactly do refrigerators explode? Gasses that become trapped and not allowed to properly vent can easily become ignited by a single spark. Or leaking isobutene can also cause both sudden explosion and fire.
Okay, I know what you're thinking. The probability of your home/workplace refrigerator exploding or the supermarket frozen food section going nuclear is about as likely as your winning the Mega Millions lottery. Yet some industry experts, like Neil Everitt of ACR News, view exploding refrigerators as a potential life threatening disaster in the making.
"The most worrying thing about… exploding fridge cases," he writes in his monthly column, "is what I see as a failure by the industry to take these events seriously. The chaos caused by an exploding fridge, its potential to cause injury and the ramifications for this industry, have not been fully recognized."
Everitt also makes a point of differentiating between actual explosions and fires. While a fire is usually preceded by smoke, or an alarm, or both, explosions happen spontaneously and without warning. They can cause serious injury or death, as was the case with a rash of explosions that occurred recently in England.
Do you see exploding refrigerators as a real threat? And if so, what should the industry do to make them safer?
-------------------
IN MY WORLD THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FIRE AND AN EXPLOSION -- think we need a quantum shift in blame here
could say we have a new "hotpoint" for "frigid blame"
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When the fire inspections were taken off the fire brigade,it was to cut costs and manpower,it also put this area into the brown envelope brigade.
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What have exploding fridges got to do with fire safety inspections? They inspect the building's capability to withstand fire, not personal electrical equipment's propensity to burst into flames..!
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It all seems to have gone quite on the death toll information as some prick of a Labour mp said they was holding the death tolls back becuase the true number will cause riots on the streets .
If this is the case it's what I have been saying all along from page one about the sub letting issue and everyone will be shocked to the core when it comes to light.
But will the true figure ever come out becuase if the fire temp was that high would that not even turn teeth and human bones into dust.
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Would he have been a prick if he'd been a Tory MP and done the same?
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It all seems to have gone quite on the death toll information as some prick of a Labour mp said they was holding the death tolls back becuase the true number will cause riots on the streets .
He didn't say that at all.
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Like I keep saying Glynn that s what I read somewhere and I just take things at face value .
But if he did not say what I thought I read it still don't take away my pointon sub let issue ,which you tried to twist and turn a tad back.
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I love how you keep missing the fact that the fire would have happened regardless of whether there was subletting going on or not.
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I love how you keep missing the fact that the fire would have happened regardless of whether there was subletting going on or not.
This is getting silly now mister fcuk head .where on earth have I typed that the sub let issue was the fault of the fire ?
Are you and Glynn and whoever else on pm to keep on landing this slanderess claim on my doorstep in hope to send me round the bend .
My claim has allways been that the sub let will effect the final numbers that died ,never as to why fire started.
Fcuk me if we all lived in America and stood by their society I would sue your ass with $$$$$$ in my eyes.
I know you lot are annoying kunts at times ,but I used to think you was intelligent annoying kunts and now Iam second guessing that.
Iam just waiting for Glynn to pipe up and ask for a link that bcaks you lot as annoying kunts.
Please bring evidence to the table that I have said that the sub let culture started the fire.
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NOF, I remember a few weeks ago that you said a certain poster was "premier league".
Do you still think the same?
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NOF, I remember a few weeks ago that you said a certain poster was "premier league".
Do you still think the same?
If you talking about Glynn yes he is prem league when his head is not stuck in the sand .
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http://metro.co.uk/2017/07/02/grenfell-tenants-who-illegally-sublet-flats-told-they-wont-be-prosecuted-6750138/
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Well the sub let issue from this block of flats is now out there in the open as they have no idea who and how many were living in the flat > local housing officers not doing their jobs for starters .
You have to ask why they are happy to turn a blind eye to law breakers
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I suppose it is a kind of amnesty in an attempt to find out how many people were actually in the flats on the night of the fire.
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Try taking a bottle of beer to your seat at an away game,see if you can get an amnesty.
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Oslo man....! "You have to ask why they are happy to turn a blind eye to law breakers "
Please, before you jump into slagging people off, just think about the circumstance existing at the time. I agree law breakers are getting away with murder these days. But how many Council employees have been made redundant this last 10 years do you think? How many have been forced out? How many have had enough and simply gone? Did you not see what I wrote before? 80% of the childcare budget in the county where I liove is spent on investigations. Brilliant. Until you realise then that there is nothing left to actually do anything. So kids are palmed off, forced away, pushed under the carpet. Fire Brigades had the duty to inspect buildings taken off them to cut costs. Then the cretins who did it after had their hours cut, for a tower block, from a decent length of time to 15 minutes. 15 bloody minutes! Thank you David Cameron. McDonald was right. It is institutionalised murder.
And just for interest, think about how governments always emnsure there is a ;police force to manage crime, a border force to manage immigration but guess what? There is nothing to enforce employment regulations. Nothing. There is a HUGE clothing manufacture industry in Leicester for example that pays, on average, less than £4 an hour. That is illegal. It used to be that an aggrieved employee could go to an Industrial Tribunal - but David Cameron stopped that in 2013 with the imposition of a huge fee payable up front. Since then Tribunal cases have dropped by over 70%.
That man has caused more damage to this country than anyone in the last 100 years. And I include Adolf Hitler and Maggie Thatcher in that list. So please don't knee jerk blame the people trying to do their job. Blame the culture these right wing xenophobes and idealogues have created and maintained.
BobG
BobG
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I suppose it is a kind of amnesty in an attempt to find out how many people were actually in the flats on the night of the fire.
I will take as set in stone that number of people that was in the block on night of the fire ,was near enough the same numbers that had beds in the block during previous 6 months or so .
But the amount of people that was on record with the local council living in the block is far lower than the final death toll > and that's after the count of body's that been possible to recover .
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Oslo man....! "You have to ask why they are happy to turn a blind eye to law breakers "
Please, before you jump into slagging people off, just think about the circumstance existing at the time. I agree law breakers are getting away with murder these days. But how many Council employees have been made redundant this last 10 years do you think? How many have been forced out? How many have had enough and simply gone? Did you not see what I wrote before? 80% of the childcare budget in the county where I liove is spent on investigations. Brilliant. Until you realise then that there is nothing left to actually do anything. So kids are palmed off, forced away, pushed under the carpet. Fire Brigades had the duty to inspect buildings taken off them to cut costs. Then the cretins who did it after had their hours cut, for a tower block, from a decent length of time to 15 minutes. 15 bloody minutes! Thank you David Cameron. McDonald was right. It is institutionalised murder.
And just for interest, think about how governments always emnsure there is a ;police force to manage crime, a border force to manage immigration but guess what? There is nothing to enforce employment regulations. Nothing. There is a HUGE clothing manufacture industry in Leicester for example that pays, on average, less than £4 an hour. That is illegal. It used to be that an aggrieved employee could go to an Industrial Tribunal - but David Cameron stopped that in 2013 with the imposition of a huge fee payable up front. Since then Tribunal cases have dropped by over 70%.
That man has caused more damage to this country than anyone in the last 100 years. And I include Adolf Hitler and Maggie Thatcher in that list. So please don't knee jerk blame the people trying to do their job. Blame the culture these right wing xenophobes and idealogues have created and maintained.
BobG
BobG
Bob I see what your getting at ,but if Iam correct the Chelsea and kensington council Are the 2nd richest behind Manchester .
So there is money within this certian council to pay for more staff if that is the case .maybe this council is using the cut backs from the government as an excuse not to be fully staffed.
If the local splashed out to pay check who is living in their rented flats it would save them money in the long run as it would help with the sub let issues.
Well that's what happens in my head BOB
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Kensington and Chelsea is the richest borough in the UK. But that's the borough. Not the council. The Council is as under resourced as every other council. They dont have the wherewithall to do everything they should be doing. But, Kensington and Chelsea are special. Their spending undershoots even the relatively little they get - and they are proud of the fact. It is a council is peopled by right wing acolytes who take huge pride in the fact. Clearly, they hold right wing political correctness above the welfare of people and institutions.
BobG
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Oslo man....! "You have to ask why they are happy to turn a blind eye to law breakers "
Please, before you jump into slagging people off, just think about the circumstance existing at the time. I agree law breakers are getting away with murder these days. But how many Council employees have been made redundant this last 10 years do you think? How many have been forced out? How many have had enough and simply gone? Did you not see what I wrote before? 80% of the childcare budget in the county where I liove is spent on investigations. Brilliant. Until you realise then that there is nothing left to actually do anything. So kids are palmed off, forced away, pushed under the carpet. Fire Brigades had the duty to inspect buildings taken off them to cut costs. Then the cretins who did it after had their hours cut, for a tower block, from a decent length of time to 15 minutes. 15 bloody minutes! Thank you David Cameron. McDonald was right. It is institutionalised murder.
And just for interest, think about how governments always emnsure there is a ;police force to manage crime, a border force to manage immigration but guess what? There is nothing to enforce employment regulations. Nothing. There is a HUGE clothing manufacture industry in Leicester for example that pays, on average, less than £4 an hour. That is illegal. It used to be that an aggrieved employee could go to an Industrial Tribunal - but David Cameron stopped that in 2013 with the imposition of a huge fee payable up front. Since then Tribunal cases have dropped by over 70%.
That man has caused more damage to this country than anyone in the last 100 years. And I include Adolf Hitler and Maggie Thatcher in that list. So please don't knee jerk blame the people trying to do their job. Blame the culture these right wing xenophobes and idealogues have created and maintained.
BobG
BobG
bob when labour were in power what did they do to make the tower blocks safe? What have the labour councils done to make the tower blocks safe? Before you just blame cuts, we will use Blackpool labour council, were in 1 of the poorest areas and they want to spend 10s of millions on new hotels in a area where pretty much no1 has any money, can you try and answer this without blaming the tories?
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Playing devil's advocate, spending money on hotels will create jobs during the building stage and other jobs when the hotels are finished, as well as potentially fetching more people in to spend money locally.
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Playing devil's advocate, spending money on hotels will create jobs during the building stage and other jobs when the hotels are finished, as well as potentially fetching more people in to spend money locally.
Yes, it's called 'investment' ie spending now with the eye to making your money back plus profit in the future. It's what business does. But Labour get vilified for when they suggest the government does it to create jobs and benefit the country's economic infrastructure.
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Let's all wake up and smell the coffee as most of us are not fools .
But if Labour was in at number 10 when this fire started ,the Torys would been at their necks like a Doberman pincher land all the blame onto Labour laps > just like what Labour are doing to Torys today.
Whoever was in the fire would have happened ,as nobody walks into number 10 and then in time rules that all fire and safety in all tower blocks must be re checked unless there was a massive fire in the first place.
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Let's all wake up and smell the coffee as most of us are not fools .
But if Labour was in at number 10 when this fire started ,the Torys would been at their necks like a Doberman pincher land all the blame onto Labour laps > just like what Labour are doing to Torys today.
Whoever was in the fire would have happened ,as nobody walks into number 10 and then in time rules that all fire and safety in all tower blocks must be re checked unless there was a massive fire in the first place.
Are you really suggesting that everything that Bob G has highlighted happened under Cameron would also have happened under Labour? Seriously?
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Iam pointing out Glynn that whatever party was in the fire would have happened ,as I can't see anyone paying such close attention to the hidden pitfalls.
What bob g wrote was a Tory fcuk up ,but if Labour or whoever else had been in they would have fcuked it up another way .
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If you go back through the posts on this thread you will see that after the Lakanal House fire in 2009 and then again after the report into it came out in 2013 several recommendations were made to government on how to make tower blocks safer in case of fire. These included how cladding spread the fire, how building regulations on fire safety were not clear enough and on retrofitting sprinklers when blocks are refurbished.
What we will never know is if a Labour government would have acted on these recommendations. What we do know is that the Tory government didn't.
Grenfell House was refurbished in 2015-2016.
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If you go back through the posts on this thread you will see that after the Lakanal House fire in 2009 and then again after the report into it came out in 2013 several recommendations were made to government on how to make tower blocks safer in case of fire. These included how cladding spread the fire, how building regulations on fire safety were not clear enough and on retrofitting sprinklers when blocks are refurbished.
What we will never know is if a Labour government would have acted on these recommendations. What we do know is that the Tory government didn't.
Grenfell House was refurbished in 2015-2016.
I could well be wrong with what I posted wilts ,but I just don't trust whoever is running the country
tbh ,and it will allways take a massive disaster to take place for whatever suggestions, reports to be carried out .
Since this greenhall tower block fire is now out of the main stream media day in day out ,I get this fealing that it's normall for those in power to do their best for all joe public to move as government hide within the red tape issues .
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This might cause you a major shock Oslo but I agree with just about everything you have said there.
Luckily though the survivors seem determined not to be rolled over and they have a good team working with them who wont either. They have written to the PM today setting out a list of their demands that they want to see happen before they will co-operate with an inquiry. It will be back in the news soon I am sure.
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However this government react to this particular disaster wrong or right ,I will allways suspect deep down inside that this government or whatever government are turning blind eyes to any amount of other potential disasters or pitfalls ,and will only react or be seen to react after whatever disaster that takes places.
It will take a massive change how all governments set their stalls out for me to change my mindset.
The worst government that I hold to blame for this is the yanks ,as in my book bcak in days of black/white tv all governments were not as cunning as today ,and it was the yanks that allways went that extra yard which is now miles in pulling wool over our eyes .
That Hillary Clinton cow and her blow job of a head husband Clinton are in a league of their own on this respect.
As for mr trump > time will tell.
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NOF - what on earth is going on in your head dude - you seem to flit from one issue to the next - bac and forth back and forth. Your thinking is just not joined up or thought through. My advice is stfu !
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If you go back through the posts on this thread you will see that after the Lakanal House fire in 2009 and then again after the report into it came out in 2013 several recommendations were made to government on how to make tower blocks safer in case of fire. These included how cladding spread the fire, how building regulations on fire safety were not clear enough and on retrofitting sprinklers when blocks are refurbished.
What we will never know is if a Labour government would have acted on these recommendations. What we do know is that the Tory government didn't.
Grenfell House was refurbished in 2015-2016.
What I find disturbing is that Sheffield Council are claiming they bought one standard of cladding, but the contractors fitted a cheaper version, if that pans out to be true, and the council will surely have kept details of the contract then somebody is in for the High jump.
And if it's happened in Sheffield where else, smells like the old Polson affair and it doesn't smell nice.
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NOF - what on earth is going on in your head dude - you seem to flit from one issue to the next - bac and forth back and forth. Your thinking is just not joined up or thought through. My advice is stfu !
Iam saying what I think Jeff ,you don't think bugger all as you seem to spend most of your time digging me out .
What I think don't mean Iam correct ,it just means that's what I think .
I think your a kunt ,but that don't mean Iam correct as Iam sure many on here will think different,that's their proogative ( can never spell that bastaard of a word) SIR .
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I feel sorry for for anyone living in a tower block. As far as I know it everyone tested has failed the safety checks.
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I love you really nof xx
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If you go back through the posts on this thread you will see that after the Lakanal House fire in 2009 and then again after the report into it came out in 2013 several recommendations were made to government on how to make tower blocks safer in case of fire. These included how cladding spread the fire, how building regulations on fire safety were not clear enough and on retrofitting sprinklers when blocks are refurbished.
What we will never know is if a Labour government would have acted on these recommendations. What we do know is that the Tory government didn't.
Grenfell House was refurbished in 2015-2016.
What I find disturbing is that Sheffield Council are claiming they bought one standard of cladding, but the contractors fitted a cheaper version, if that pans out to be true, and the council will surely have kept details of the contract then somebody is in for the High jump.
And if it's happened in Sheffield where else, smells like the old Polson affair and it doesn't smell nice.
What about the Doncaster councils answer to the cladding issue as I found this a tad odd .
It went along the lines that cladding types installed they was happy with ,but their are questions to be asked about the type of cladding that was installed just under the window ledge as that could be suspect cladding.
I don't quite understand why they would use a different type of cladding for just under the window ledge unless I have got the wrong end of the stick again.
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I love you really nof xx
Sometimes even I don't love myself Jeff ,so you sound like scobby do now .
Have you been dropping some type of acid or estacy pills or them magic musrhroom things .
You do know that BYO closed down on north ridge some years ago fella.
You will soon come out of it and back to normall service I suspect .
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Had a couple of pints of Ilkley Brewery 'Long Weekend' earlier, about 4%. It did go down well - could that do it ?
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Beer don't make you want to love and hug everyone Jeff ,but back in the late 1980s many football hooligans were taking pills which lowered the numbers been arrested on matchdays as they was all loved up and hugging each other .
Me I was still an Orrible kunt with no fcuker to swing a punch at as I never taken a drug in my life.
Where did that "H" go ?
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Playing devil's advocate, spending money on hotels will create jobs during the building stage and other jobs when the hotels are finished, as well as potentially fetching more people in to spend money locally.
23 million on a 4 star hotel in not the best part of Blackpool, yes maybe create a few jobs for a
Short time but can't see any other benefits
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TRue Geoof - but the testing that's being employed and that they've all failed is mysteriously being kept very secret. There have been eports that what is being tested is the flammability of the content between the two cladding sheets and that that is bursting into flames much too readily. Bu if that's true, it's a totally bizarre test to run. Fire doesn't touch the sandwich filling until it's burned through the cladding itself. And if that lasts an hour before it melts or itself burns , then according to the regs, there's no problem.
Why test for something that is guaranteed to fail when the requirement is to test something else entirely? I've heard it suggested a few times now that the Govt panicked, rushed and didn't understand what they were ordering to be done. Two different fire inspectors have both said on Radio 4 this last 10 days that the Govt safety advisors ballsed it up. And now, if it's true, they're stuck with the consequences and the residents are stuck with the fear.
BobG
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Apologies if i am wrong here, but i think i heard a snippet on the news the other day saying that the cladding used on Grenfell Tower was LESS fire retardant than the cladding they should have used.
The way that reads to me is that the cladding they should have used is NOT FIREPROOF, but is a bit less fire retardant than the stuff they did use.
Why would anyone approve a cladding on a building like that if it isn't totally fireproof?
I am guessing that means that all the towers have cladding which isn't totally fireproof.
Maybe someone will tell me that it isn't possible to get a totally fireproof cladding?
Does anyone know?
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Apologies if i am wrong here, but i think i heard a snippet on the news the other day saying that the cladding used on Grenfell Tower was LESS fire retardant than the cladding they should have used.
The way that reads to me is that the cladding they should have used is NOT FIREPROOF, but is a bit less fire retardant than the stuff they did use.
Why would anyone approve a cladding on a building like that if it isn't totally fireproof?
I am guessing that means that all the towers have cladding which isn't totally fireproof.
Maybe someone will tell me that it isn't possible to get a totally fireproof cladding?
Does anyone know?
Because it was £300,000 cheaper.
If you mean why isn't there something that isn't fire retardant but fire proof instead, my guess would be that anything that doesn't burn at all would either be dangerous (ie asbestos), or so solid/dense that it would be too heavy to put all up the sides of tower blocks without compromising the integrity of the building. And cost a lot more to put there than the cladding actually used too.
Having said that, it does occur to me that the cladding seems to be some sort of material sandwiched between two thin layers of another material (in the case of Grenfell, aluminium I believe). Is there any reason why the foam that is used in fire retardant furniture couldn't be used as the filling in the sandwich? OK it still burns - but very slowly, so no quick spread of flames or smoke - and would be light enough for the job too.
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Glyn, I know about the £300k saving but that wasn't the point of my question.
It was about the use of none fire proof products.
Surely in this day and age there must be a product that could be used that is light enough and fire proof.
Maybe it would be more expensive if it does in fact exist but in light of comments on here and on TV, cost shouldn't be an issue if it is at the risk of public safety.
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It shouldn't be an issue, but it is an issue. At least, it was before this. Couple the cheap flammable cladding with other slapdash cost cutting, like not filling in chambers made for power lines and gas mains (essentially giving the fire a chimney to spread right to the top of the tower very quickly), and add on top the "red tape" cutting that meant proper safety checks weren't carried out. Really it's a catalogue of errors, encouraged from the government down by this bizarre culture of red tape cutting.
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Also just read that hospitals are failing the fire safety checks, including Sheffield Children's Hospital. Makes you really see the scope of the problem.
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It hasnt took that long for the subject not to be the main news item in the media.
The dodgy deals ,back handers and poor workmanship,plus the crooked tenants who sub let,and the illegal tenants and dare I say the illegal immigrants,will all be covering their tracks, or disappearing into the cesspit that London has become.
No doubt we will have a very expensive Enquiry that will look to blame one or too officials,but will fudge or overlook most of the problems and the people involved because it is not politically correct.
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Glyn, I know about the £300k saving but that wasn't the point of my question.
It was about the use of none fire proof products.
Surely in this day and age there must be a product that could be used that is light enough and fire proof.
Maybe it would be more expensive if it does in fact exist but in light of comments on here and on TV, cost shouldn't be an issue if it is at the risk of public safety.
It doesn't need to be completely fire proof, just burn slowly enough for the emergency services to be able to get there and deal with instead of a whole building going up like a roman candle.
I remember a QI programme that was on about hay being a very good fire retardant and that lots of American houses have it in the cavity between the outer and inner skin of the building.
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I can imagine what people would say if hay was used on future towers.
It would be the last straw!
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Careful bringing your mirth to the forum
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My Grandparents house has a foot thick lining of hay in between the outer and inner walls.cool in summer warm in winter. It's 400 years old and still standing
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I can imagine what people would say if hay was used on future towers.
It would be the last straw!
They'd probably blame poor old Nigel Forage for it.
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Someone would bale him out though.
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They wouldn't be very popular with the lefties on here if they did, they don't like people going against the grain.
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Or with the right wing if it wasn't local but had been brought in from further afield.
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I think they'd have a point in preferring employment fodder local people.
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It would help sort the wheat from the chaff I suppose.
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/grenfell-tower-fire-alarm-firm-lakehouse-in-fraud-claim-j2l5k80p9
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-risk-assessor-carl-stokes-buried-fire-risk-report-kensington-and-chelsea-tenant-a7819386.html%3Famp
Couple of linked items