Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Bentley Bullet on September 24, 2019, 11:08:36 pm
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OK, I'm back for a one-off. I know this might upset the handful of Remoaners that try to rule this forum with displays of insolence in order to keep the silent majority silent but I'll tell you what I think. The supreme court think they made the right decision to the delight of the bad loser Remoaners (surprise surprise), but do the majority of the public?
Of course, only time will tell, so all I can say going forward is General election please Jezza when you've plucked up enough courage.
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Been on the sauce again BB?
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No point in calling a GE until no deal is off the table. No one trusts BJ not to revert to no deal.
That’s a really simple premise and is relevant to all sides of the argument.
What makes you think you’re going to get a sensible debate using terms like bad loser, display of insolence and remoaner.? Not exactly a voice of reason is it.
Are the majority of the population qualified in constitutional law, to say the court was wrong, or do we accept that they are the experts and therefore accept their judgement.?
And if you are going to start a thread with my old 606 forum username, ask first..?
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Been on the sauce again BB?
NNK, you're a bitter and twisted Remoaner, but tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be a bitter and twisted Remoaner.
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No point in calling a GE until no deal is off the table. No one trusts BJ not to revert to no deal.
That’s a really simple premise and is relevant to all sides of the argument.
What makes you think you’re going to get a sensible debate using terms like bad loser, display of insolence and remoaner.? Not exactly a voice of reason is it.
Are the majority of the population qualifies in constitutional law?
And if you are going to start a thread with my old 606 forum username, ask first..?
No point in calling a GE until no deal is off the table. No one trusts BJ not to revert to no deal.
That’s a really simple premise and is relevant to all sides of the argument.
What makes you think you’re going to get a sensible debate using terms like bad loser, display of insolence and remoaner.? Not exactly a voice of reason is it.
Are the majority of the population qualifies in constitutional law?
And if you are going to start a thread with my old 606 forum username, ask first..?
If that's your former username no wonder you changed it.
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So you start a thread with the express purpose of abusing those who reply..
How very grown up.. hope the admins take note.
606 closed down, in case you had forgotten..
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When the British Public know as much about the Law and Constitution as the Supreme Court, then I'll start to care what they think.
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IDM, do you honestly think that the handful of Remoaners on this forum haven't done nothing but start threads, and contribute to them with the express purpose of abusing Leave voters for the last three years? Has admin taken notes? They certainly haven't taken action. If admin wants to ban me fair enough, I won't ask for a revote.
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The Supreme court were completely right in ruling as they did. They were nullifying a dangerous precedent that had far wider ramifications than Brexit.
Labour's stance on Brexit and any election seems sensible to me.
It's democratic which is more that can be said for the other two main parties.
Corbyn's speech today was magnificent but will get lost and ignored and he will continue to be seen as unelectable, which is unfortunately true at the moment; but who knows what will happen in an election campaign when people may want to listen to what Labour policies actually are.
I still think Labour needs to move back to the centre a bit under a new leader, in which case they'd hack up whenever the vote comes.
No chance of that currently though.
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But Tommy, you would think that you're a Remainer! You will think nothing of the precedence that has now been set while you celebrate what you think is an act of great democracy.
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When the British Public know as much about the Law and Constitution as the Supreme Court, then I'll start to care what they think.
So if you don't care what the public think why are you on this forum?
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But Tommy, you would think that you're a Remainer! You will think nothing of the precedence that has now been set while you celebrate what you think is an act of great democracy.
Bentley..
The Supreme court have only ruled that a PM or anyone else can't silence parliament any time they feel like it because they don't agree with him or her about something.
For instance if Trump was PM and he wanted to nuke Iran he could get his way by proroguing parliament if they disagreed.
The Supreme Court has just stopped that happening.
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When the British Public know as much about the Law and Constitution as the Supreme Court, then I'll start to care what they think.
So if you don't care what the public think why are you on this forum?
It gives me a good idea of how little you they know.
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But Tommy, you would think that you're a Remainer! You will think nothing of the precedence that has now been set while you celebrate what you think is an act of great democracy.
Bentley..
The Supreme court have only ruled that a PM or anyone else can't silence parliament any time they feel like it because they don't agree with him or her about something.
For instance if Trump was PM and he wanted to nuke Iran he could get his way by proroguing parliament if they disagreed.
The Supreme Court has just stopped that happening.
Tomy,I'm intrigued. What's Trump got to do with it?
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When the British Public know as much about the Law and Constitution as the Supreme Court, then I'll start to care what they think.
So if you don't care what the public think why are you on this forum?
It gives me a good idea of how little you they know.
Well, Mr Wiggerley, after the general election it might just show how little YOU know!
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Oh I see you're in wind up mode.
Goodnight old chap.
Up the Rovers!
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No Tommy, I'm certainly not winding you up, Heaven forbid. It was a genuine question about why Trump should be used in a situation of nuclear war as as an example of Boris Johnson wanting to carry out his country's choice to leave the EU?
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No Tommy, I'm certainly not winding you up, Heaven forbid. It was a genuine question about why Trump should be used in a situation of nuclear war as as an example of Boris Johnson wanting to carry out his country's choice to leave the EU?
I've explained what the Supreme Court's decision is about. It stops an individual riding roughshod over our democratically elected parliament.
You seem to forget that Boris insisted that his proroguing parliament was nothing to do with Brexit but the need for a fresh Queen's Speech.
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And did the supreme court say that wasn't true?
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No Tommy, I'm certainly not winding you up, Heaven forbid. It was a genuine question about why Trump should be used in a situation of nuclear war as as an example of Boris Johnson wanting to carry out his country's choice to leave the EU?
Boris said the prorogation was nothing to do with Brexit. As you're conflating the two in contradiction of what Boris said, you must think that it wasn't true regardless of what the Supreme Court said.
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Who's conflating the two!
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OK, I'm back for a one-off. I know this might upset the handful of Remoaners that try to rule this forum with displays of insolence in order to keep the silent majority silent but I'll tell you what I think. The supreme court think they made the right decision to the delight of the bad loser Remoaners (surprise surprise), but do the majority of the public?
Of course, only time will tell, so all I can say going forward is General election please Jezza when you've plucked up enough courage.
Did you go with Thomas Cook? just asking for a friend.
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Been on the sauce again BB?
NNK, you're a bitter and twisted Remoaner, but tomorrow I shall be sober and you will still be a bitter and twisted Remoaner.
Really?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdHXJT_AGx4
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OK, I'm back for a one-off. I know this might upset the handful of Remoaners that try to rule this forum with displays of insolence in order to keep the silent majority silent but I'll tell you what I think. The supreme court think they made the right decision to the delight of the bad loser Remoaners (surprise surprise), but do the majority of the public?
Of course, only time will tell, so all I can say going forward is General election please Jezza when you've plucked up enough courage.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/24/49-30-britons-agree-supreme-courts-ruling-prorogui (https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/09/24/49-30-britons-agree-supreme-courts-ruling-prorogui)
Yes.
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And did the supreme court say that wasn't true?
No. They saw the bigger picture which is why the vote was 11-0.
I'd imagine some of those judges are committed Tories yet still voted emphatically against him.
Some things are bigger than party loyalties
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Just to add to the weight of the answers that the OP has already been provided with.
I listened to Nigel Farage on LBC calling multiple times for Johnson to resign. I am sure part of that is opportunistic political strategising, but you could also tell in the tone of his voice/the conversation that he knows that he can't on the one hand campaign for greater national control of laws, and greater parliamentary sovereignty and then on the other ignore the rulings and determinations of those (democratic) institutions! Its a massive existential contradiction.
This is the conundrum leave means leave people simply do not want to address. It seems to me those who want to remain are fighting a political and institutional battle to do so. But those who think leave means leave, think that this means impunity in relation to all the things they are actually fighting for (national control of laws, national sovereignty)!
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There is no voice of reason in the leave camp, if there was we'd have heard it as they would have told us what it was (and they wouldn't have had to prorogue parliament) some of us may have well agreed but there you have it apart from a few ideas, quite legitimate on their own such as nationalising the railways but never big enough to compensate for the impending losses.
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IDM, do you honestly think that the handful of Remoaners on this forum haven't done nothing but start threads, and contribute to them with the express purpose of abusing Leave voters for the last three years? Has admin taken notes? They certainly haven't taken action. If admin wants to ban me fair enough, I won't ask for a revote.
I’m sure the tone of those threads arguing against leaving or leaving with no deal are about the issues.
Read your OP, look at the language you used, you’re having a pop at the people more than the issues.
That’s not a voice of reason, is it.?
Anyway, there’s little point in debating with you as you never seem to accept that people can disagree, that you always have to be right..
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BB: I'm fed up with the sneering insults of Remainers.
Also BB: Bitter and twisted! Bad losers! Pathetic!
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How ironic that the remainers are banging on about democracy but are happy to ignore the referendum result. Also they bottled a GE because they KNOW that the vast majority of the public would back Boris. It's nothing to do with democracy, it's all to do with trying every shabby trick in the book to get their own way and keep their noses in the trough.
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According to the polls this morning interviewed on talkradio this morning it has made no difference to the polls on Brexit, and the Conservative lead in the polls in a general election has gone up over 1% since yesterdays judgement results.
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You need to change your radio station Selby.
As far as I can see,there have been no polls on voting intention published after the SC verdict.
Either you're not listening properly or someone is deliberately lying to you.
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Well one things for sure Billy.If Labour don't get a surge after the fiasco in the courts yesterday followed by Corbyns speech promising everybody all the Gold they can eat then they are in real trouble looking towards the general election..
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How ironic that the remainers are banging on about democracy but are happy to ignore the referendum result. Also they bottled a GE because they KNOW that the vast majority of the public would back Boris. It's nothing to do with democracy, it's all to do with trying every shabby trick in the book to get their own way and keep their noses in the trough.
How ironic that leave means leave don’t care about no deal folks wanted the UK to take back control and sovereignty - to our parliament and to our courts - don’t like it when the Supreme Court goes against them (unanimously) and when the PM tries to bully his way over parliamentary process..
Also, not wanting no deal doesn’t mean not accepting the referendum result. Delivering Brexit would, but the issue at hand is securing a deal to achieve that.
As for the GE, the ONLY reason this hasn’t been voted for yet is to avoid a no deal Brexit. Not to avoid Brexit, just avoid no deal.
Even Farage thinks the 31 Oct date will be extended and then have a GE, and for once I agree with him..
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Yeah but...but...but...
Prorogation of Parliament was nothing to do with Brexit, so why are the Brexit Death Cult so upset about it?
It's almost as though all that matters is winning...
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Yeah but...but...but...
Prorogation of Parliament was nothing to do with Brexit, so why are the Brexit Death Cult so upset about it?
It's almost as though all that matters is winning...
Don't make me laugh 'Brexit Death Cult', it's the remainiac zealots who will stop at nothing to get their own way. Unfortunately for you most of the rest of the country thinks otherwise in my experience of speaking to people.
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I don't get what you are saying AL.
Was prorogation about Brexit or not?
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I don't get what you are saying AL.
Was prorogation about Brexit or not?
Calling Brexiters a death cult. We only want what we voted for.
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Billy, stop panicing when something is said on the radio that frightens you, I certainly will not change the station I listen to, it is not as slanted as the BBC and gives both sides equal air time.
The gentleman on the programme was a collator of all polls, and was talking about information taken since yesterdays decision, if you think he was talking b******s that is up to you, it is only the same as I think about the reams of posts on the Brexit subject posted on here.
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OK, I'm back for a one-off. I know this might upset the handful of Remoaners that try to rule this forum with displays of insolence in order to keep the silent majority silent but I'll tell you what I think. The supreme court think they made the right decision to the delight of the bad loser Remoaners (surprise surprise), but do the majority of the public?
Of course, only time will tell, so all I can say going forward is General election please Jezza when you've plucked up enough courage.
Did you go with Thomas Cook? just asking for a friend.
Aye, and the bas**rds have left me stranded here in Skeggy.
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I don't get what you are saying AL.
Was prorogation about Brexit or not?
Calling Brexiters a death cult. We only want what we voted for.
Don't blame Remainers then. You should be blaming people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris. They've voted done one deal and are taking their time with this one. It's their fault you're not getting what you're asking for.
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BB: I'm fed up with the sneering insults of Remainers.
Also BB: Bitter and twisted! Bad losers! Pathetic!
"Is this a five minute argument or the full half-hour?"
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I don't get what you are saying AL.
Was prorogation about Brexit or not?
Calling Brexiters a death cult. We only want what we voted for.
Don't blame Remainers then. You should be blaming people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris. They've voted done one deal and are taking their time with this one. It's their fault you're not getting what you're asking for.
I don't want a deal.
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Of course, the Remainers are to blame because it's them that want us to stay in! It's now't to do with how we leave, they don't want to.
If they wanted to leave they wouldn't call themselves Remainers!
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I don't get what you are saying AL.
Was prorogation about Brexit or not?
Calling Brexiters a death cult. We only want what we voted for.
Don't blame Remainers then. You should be blaming people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris. They've voted done one deal and are taking their time with this one. It's their fault you're not getting what you're asking for.
I don't want a deal.
Why not.? You’d prefer chaos to an orderly Brexit.?
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I don't get what you are saying AL.
Was prorogation about Brexit or not?
Calling Brexiters a death cult. We only want what we voted for.
Don't blame Remainers then. You should be blaming people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris. They've voted done one deal and are taking their time with this one. It's their fault you're not getting what you're asking for.
I don't want a deal.
But then you're going against the will of the people as that's what was said, that they'd get a good deal for the country.
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Of course, the Remainers are to blame because it's them that want us to stay in! It's now't to do with how we leave, they don't want to.
If they wanted to leave they wouldn't call themselves Remainers!
Nothing to do with the hardline Brexiteers helping to vote down May’s deal as agreed with the EU, three times.?
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They voted against May's deal because they didn't think it was a good deal. NOT because they want to remain!
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Precisely, and at the moment Parliament has decided it doesn’t want no deal and passed a law so Johnson has to ask for an extension if he cant agree a deal, because no deal isn’t a good deal either, it’s much worse..
Not because they don’t want to honour the referendum..
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I don't get what you are saying AL.
Was prorogation about Brexit or not?
Calling Brexiters a death cult. We only want what we voted for.
Don't blame Remainers then. You should be blaming people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris. They've voted done one deal and are taking their time with this one. It's their fault you're not getting what you're asking for.
I don't want a deal.
But then you're going against the will of the people as that's what was said, that they'd get a good deal for the country.
We managed well enough before joining the Common Market trading block which has morphed into a super state without anyone being asked.
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Precisely, and at the moment Parliament has decided it doesn’t want no deal and passed a law so Johnson has to ask for an extension if he cant agree a deal, because no deal isn’t a good deal either, it’s much worse..
Not because they don’t want to honour the referendum..
The question should be, do the Remainers in Parliament want to carry out the democratic vote to leave or are they using delay tactics in the hope that we remain?
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I don't get what you are saying AL.
Was prorogation about Brexit or not?
Calling Brexiters a death cult. We only want what we voted for.
Don't blame Remainers then. You should be blaming people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris. They've voted done one deal and are taking their time with this one. It's their fault you're not getting what you're asking for.
I don't want a deal.
But then you're going against the will of the people as that's what was said, that they'd get a good deal for the country.
We managed well enough before joining the Common Market trading block which has morphed into a super state without anyone being asked.
But you're still going against the will of the people.
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Precisely, and at the moment Parliament has decided it doesn’t want no deal and passed a law so Johnson has to ask for an extension if he cant agree a deal, because no deal isn’t a good deal either, it’s much worse..
Not because they don’t want to honour the referendum..
The question should be, do the Remainers in Parliament want to carry out the democratic vote to leave or are they using delay tactics in the hope that we remain?
It is a valid point BB and apparently the election promise from Lib Dems to revoke article 50.
Equally valid is the hardline Brexiteers in Parliament, including our own PM, want a no deal Brexit and seem happy to act unlawfully to do so..
Wasn’t it the same Parliament (under May) that invoked article 50 in the first place, therefore passing a law to respect the referendum result.?
That they cant agree on the terms of Brexit (yet) since, is another matter.
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Yeah but...but...but...
Prorogation of Parliament was nothing to do with Brexit, so why are the Brexit Death Cult so upset about it?
It's almost as though all that matters is winning...
Don't make me laugh 'Brexit Death Cult', it's the remainiac zealots who will stop at nothing to get their own way. Unfortunately for you most of the rest of the country thinks otherwise in my experience of speaking to people.
Remind me, which side was the guy who killed Jo Cox on?
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I find it depressing and rather sad that so much of the Brexit debate on here descends so quickly into petty bickering, mud-slinging, and personal insults.
Decent, sensible, reasoned discussion is, to a large extent, long gone.
This thread, and its opening post in particular, merely serves to perpetuate this sorry saga.
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Pancho, how can you have a reasoned debate when the big difference between Leavers and Remainers regarding all the predicted doom and gloom is Leavers hope they're wrong, and Remainers hope they're right.
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Surely the debate is how to avoid resultant doom and gloom, regardless of how each side voted.?
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If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?
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If what we voted for can’t be delivered, then we get another choice perhaps? The Lib Dems would have us effectively voting leave or remain at a GE, unless Brexit is resolved before then or if another referendum is called. You may not agree with that, but at least they are putting their cards on the table..
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What choice do we have if what we voted for can't be delivered? What difference would another leave vote make?
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I think the idea is to agree a deal with the EU, then put it to the people to agree.? Isn’t that what labour want.?
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For the only time in my life that I can remember in 2016 I was given a chance to vote on something which really meant something to me. I cast my vote fully expecting to lose the referendum, but at least I would have had a chance to have my say. I could not believe my ears when I trudged down stairs in the morning and switched on the radio and found that we had won! Something that really mattered to me that I had had an effect on had come true. However it did not take long for the objections and all the rest of the sour grapes to come to pass. I can honestly say that had Leave lost I would have been miffed and had a moan about it for a few days and then looked forwards to who we were playing on Saturday. All that has followed since has been a shambolic display of self-interest, deceit and political game playing ON BOTH SIDES. At the beginning of this escapade I would have described myself as a Conservative voter, but I have voted for various other parties in the past depending upon their policies at the time. We were told our vote would count and whatever the result it would be honoured. This has clearly been proved not to be the case and the majority of those in parliament hold ordinary working people like myself in contempt. We are uneducated, little Englanders whose opinion is unworthy. All we are good for is paying taxes. Go to work, shut up and carry on! I know at times I put some outrageous stuff on here, but most of it is just a wind up. All that I have come to realise is that my vote is worthless so in future I might as well vote for a more extreme party if it makes no difference in any case.
PS. I hope this post from hasn’t been too sensible for you all.
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I think the idea is to agree a deal with the EU, then put it to the people to agree.? Isn’t that what labour want.?
What Labour wants is anyone's guess, but I think the idea of agreeing on a deal with the EU then putting it to the people is what May and Boris were trying to do!
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I think the idea is to agree a deal with the EU, then put it to the people to agree.? Isn’t that what labour want.?
What Labour wants is anyone's guess, but I think the idea of agreeing on a deal with the EU then putting it to the people is what May and Boris were trying to do!
May put her deal to Parliament only. Johnson hasn’t presented a deal yet..
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For the only time in my life that I can remember in 2016 I was given a chance to vote on something which really meant something to me. I cast my vote fully expecting to lose the referendum, but at least I would have had a chance to have my say. I could not believe my ears when I trudged down stairs in the morning and switched on the radio and found that we had won! Something that really mattered to me that I had had an effect on had come true. However it did not take long for the objections and all the rest of the sour grapes to come to pass. I can honestly say that had Leave lost I would have been miffed and had a moan about it for a few days and then looked forwards to who we were playing on Saturday. All that has followed since has been a shambolic display of self-interest, deceit and political game playing ON BOTH SIDES. At the beginning of this escapade I would have described myself as a Conservative voter, but I have voted for various other parties in the past depending upon their policies at the time. We were told our vote would count and whatever the result it would be honoured. This has clearly been proved not to be the case and the majority of those in parliament hold ordinary working people like myself in contempt. We are uneducated, little Englanders whose opinion is unworthy. All we are good for is paying taxes. Go to work, shut up and carry on! I know at times I put some outrageous stuff on here, but most of it is just a wind up. All that I have come to realise is that my vote is worthless so in future I might as well vote for a more extreme party if it makes no difference in any case.
PS. I hope this post from hasn’t been too sensible for you all.
I understand your post completely.. I don’t necessarily agree with everything but you do make sense.
I believe, and I may be wrong, that the Parliament is lookng to achieve a deal with the EU but defaulting to delay rather than go with no deal.
I think they are trying to honour the referendum in the first instance.
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I think the idea is to agree a deal with the EU, then put it to the people to agree.? Isn’t that what labour want.?
What Labour wants is anyone's guess, but I think the idea of agreeing on a deal with the EU then putting it to the people is what May and Boris were trying to do!
May put her deal to Parliament only. Johnson hasn’t presented a deal yet..
Apologies, I was referring to Parliament when I said the people.
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No worries BB. But Johnson still hasn’t got a deal yet to put to Parliament. I can’t comment on the negotiations as they aren’t public, but what Johnson appears to have been doing is trashing parliamentary procedures to get a no deal.
If he does get an acceptable deal in the coming weeks, all well and good. I can’t say I am holding my breath in anticipation though..
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Obviously it is only a prediction but I think he will. I also think he would have got a better deal with the option of walking away.
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I think Johnson will struggle with credibility to be honest, and sadly all of his own doing.
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The irony of the title to the OP!
He's surpassed his high standard of talking absolute shite,and taken it to a whole new level.
Well done BB
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Pancho, how can you have a reasoned debate when the big difference between Leavers and Remainers regarding all the predicted doom and gloom is Leavers hope they're wrong, and Remainers hope they're right.
I think you're quite wrong there BB, every Remainer I know believes what the experts are predicting, and common sense would indicate that they, (the experts), are most likely correct; but every one of those I know hopes, (however unlikely), that they will be proved wrong when we eventually leave.
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I find it depressing and rather sad that so much of the Brexit debate on here descends so quickly into petty bickering, mud-slinging, and personal insults.
Decent, sensible, reasoned discussion is, to a large extent, long gone.
I totally agree.
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Pancho, how can you have a reasoned debate when the big difference between Leavers and Remainers regarding all the predicted doom and gloom is Leavers hope they're wrong, and Remainers hope they're right.
I think you're quite wrong there BB, every Leaver I know believes what the experts are predicting, and common sense would indicate that they, (the experts), are most likely correct; but every one of those I know hopes, (however unlikely), that they will be proved wrong when we eventually leave.
So Leavers hope they're wrong? That's what I said!
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If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?
The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level. So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole. But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?
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Pancho, how can you have a reasoned debate when the big difference between Leavers and Remainers regarding all the predicted doom and gloom is Leavers hope they're wrong, and Remainers hope they're right.
I think you're quite wrong there BB, every Leaver I know believes what the experts are predicting, and common sense would indicate that they, (the experts), are most likely correct; but every one of those I know hopes, (however unlikely), that they will be proved wrong when we eventually leave.
So Leavers hope they're wrong? That's what I said!
My apologies BB, it should have read every Remainer I know believes what the experts are predicting, and common sense would indicate that they, (the experts), are most likely correct; but every one of those I know hopes, (however unlikely), that they will be proved wrong when we eventually leave.
But I think you knew that really ;)
I'll amend my original post accordingly.
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No worries NNK. Nobody is inflammable.
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No worries NNK. Nobody is inflammable.
And here I was thinking I was being a light to the gentiles ;)
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If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?
The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level. So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole. But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?
When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.
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If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?
The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level. So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole. But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?
When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.
So you believe that Scotland should no longer be part of the UK? Nor Wales? Nor Northern Ireland? All independent nations?
You voted knowing England would be worse off outside of the EU?
You voted leave knowing the issue that a border would be needed between Ireland and NI? And the problems that would cause?
And you REALLY believe that experts are full of crap?
With logic like yours no wonder the UK is in the state it is right now.
Tell me, how did you form your long held personal views?
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If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?
The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level. So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole. But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?
When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.
So you believe that Scotland should no longer be part of the UK? Nor Wales? Nor Northern Ireland? All independent nations?
You voted knowing England would be worse off outside of the EU?
You voted leave knowing the issue that a border would be needed between Ireland and NI? And the problems that would cause?
And you REALLY believe that experts are full of crap?
With logic like yours no wonder the UK is in the state it is right now.
Tell me, how did you form your long held personal views?
Because it seems to me that every time we get involved in anything abroad it ends up in trouble. Our constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era is a prime example. I feel it would be much better to let others sort out their own troubles and try to put our own house in order at home. Also Globalism is all for the benefit of big business. We should wherever possible be as independent and self sufficient as possible.
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If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?
The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level. So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole. But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?
When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.
So you believe that Scotland should no longer be part of the UK? Nor Wales? Nor Northern Ireland? All independent nations?
You voted knowing England would be worse off outside of the EU?
You voted leave knowing the issue that a border would be needed between Ireland and NI? And the problems that would cause?
And you REALLY believe that experts are full of crap?
With logic like yours no wonder the UK is in the state it is right now.
Tell me, how did you form your long held personal views?
Because it seems to me that every time we get involved in anything abroad it ends up in trouble. Our constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era is a prime example. I feel it would be much better to let others sort out their own troubles and try to put our own house in order at home. Also Globalism is all for the benefit of big business. We should wherever possible be as independent and self sufficient as possible.
You haven't answered any of my questions AL, would you care to do so?
Oh, and here's another - what on God's Green Earth has our membership of the EU got to do with our 'constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era' ?
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I don't get what you are saying AL.
Was prorogation about Brexit or not?
Calling Brexiters a death cult. We only want what we voted for.
Don't blame Remainers then. You should be blaming people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris. They've voted done one deal and are taking their time with this one. It's their fault you're not getting what you're asking for.
I don't want a deal.
But then you're going against the will of the people as that's what was said, that they'd get a good deal for the country.
We managed well enough before joining the Common Market trading block which has morphed into a super state without anyone being asked.
No. We didn't. That was the whole reason we joined.
Every single one of the EEC 6 did far better economically that us from the mid-50s to the mid-70s. That's not an issue for debate. It's an established fact.
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How can you have a conversation with someone that believes experts are full of crap? who do you listen to the idiots? no wonder we have brexit
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Billy, stop panicing when something is said on the radio that frightens you, I certainly will not change the station I listen to, it is not as slanted as the BBC and gives both sides equal air time.
The gentleman on the programme was a collator of all polls, and was talking about information taken since yesterdays decision, if you think he was talking b******s that is up to you, it is only the same as I think about the reams of posts on the Brexit subject posted on here.
Nobody's panicking Selby. I've said my piece often enough about Labour and polls.
And no. It's NOT the same. One is an opinion. The other is an objective fact.
As it happens, there appears to have been one poll conducted yesterday after the SC decision. It showed that the Tories had dropped from a 2 point lead over Labour to level.
So I'll say again. It looks like you didn't get the gist of what your man was saying, or your man was talking ba-baa.
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when the ' voice of reason ' is in fact not based on either knowledge or reason, that is why we are in this mess.
Only way out now is a 'peoples vote ' , legally run , not like the 2016 Frauderendum , when we can kick Brex(sh)it well into touch
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I despair and return again and again to both the big 2 Parties who keep saying its about time we "sorted" B****t out and then get on with bringing the Country back together
Are they for REAL ? It wont happen in my lifetime
If they get "it" over the line there will instantly be lets say 50% of the electorate (to be neutral) clamouring for a return to the EU. After all the (mainly) Tory MP's did not let the 75 Referendum result get in the way of their ideal of leaving the EU. It took them decades but hey they got there
If they dont get "it" over the line there will equally be hell on. Nobody gave a s*** in 75 with such a big winning marging. We just got on with it BUT with Social Media things are more upfront so today it would be a massively different story and there would be outrage
I always thought the vote was too devisive - and said so on here the day after the Referendum - and I predicted that eventually the Politicians would not go ahead with "it" and would throw the whole thing back to the people and say it was them (the people) who had demanded they be listened to.
I have not been proven right yet and may still be wrong but one thing for sure is this is a political s*** storm the likes of which (I suspect) nobody has lived through
Apologies as I have written that so many times on here and here is another thing I often say. Think of the times a new Party comes to power. They immediately blame the outgoing Govt often for 2 or even more Terms of being in power for all the ills they inherited.
They say "they should never have commited to HS2" as an example as it cost us x Billion and we had nowt to spend on this that or the other. Both of them do it and its often but not always an excuse to cover their current failings (remember I am saying both do it)
Can you just imagine what they are going say if we do or dont leave. Just think of how many decades of thay you (perhaps not me will have to endure)?
If we had left ..... blah blah blah
If we hadnt left .... blah blah blah
So long ramble but can anyone tell me just HOW they are going to bring the Country back together cos I sure as hell cant guess
Modify message
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Which side of politics is responsible for bringing us Poll tax, Austerity and Brexit DW?
I think when you work that out you'll see which side of politics cares more about itself than the country or you or I or anyone else then that should give you by default at least an idea whom you should never vote for.
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I have been voting now for 50 years and I know which side of the divide I lie on - and whilst being a bit presumptous - I know which side 90 % + of working people should vote for but dont
So I know the Party that brought your ills above to our doors and would never ever vote for them
However that was not my question - which is really to distill it down . How the hell will we ever bring the country back together given the present "crisis" where everyone (or 50% of everyone) wants one thing whilst "hating" either litrally or metaphorically the opposite 50 % who want something different
Neither Party will do it in my lifetime and the Electoral system will not allow the Lib Dems a fair chance as we dont of course have PR
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If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?
The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level. So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole. But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?
When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.
So you believe that Scotland should no longer be part of the UK? Nor Wales? Nor Northern Ireland? All independent nations?
You voted knowing England would be worse off outside of the EU?
You voted leave knowing the issue that a border would be needed between Ireland and NI? And the problems that would cause?
And you REALLY believe that experts are full of crap?
With logic like yours no wonder the UK is in the state it is right now.
Tell me, how did you form your long held personal views?
Because it seems to me that every time we get involved in anything abroad it ends up in trouble. Our constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era is a prime example. I feel it would be much better to let others sort out their own troubles and try to put our own house in order at home. Also Globalism is all for the benefit of big business. We should wherever possible be as independent and self sufficient as possible.
You haven't answered any of my questions AL, would you care to do so?
Oh, and here's another - what on God's Green Earth has our membership of the EU got to do with our 'constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era' ?
I believe in the UK.
No one 'knows' that we will be worse off, and if so for how long.
For Ireland what is the problem with the Common Travel Area?
I just think the world would be a better place if we all stayed at home, minded our own business and looked after our gardens.
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Which side of the divide took us into an illegal war and whose economic policy's caused austerity? Sydney. Which side of the divide raided and changed the rules on most peoples pensions and has cost the ordinary working man more than any Tory government since Sydney?
Your much vaunted ex leader should be still doing time for the first event buddy, instead of going around spouting off against a legal referendum he doesn't like the result of. He needlessly cost British Soldiers lives.
If he had put his name behind remain, and been more involved in the run up to the vote, he may have solved the problem by getting more people to vote to leave.
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Which side of the divide took us into an illegal war and whose economic policy's caused austerity? Sydney. Which side of the divide raided and changed the rules on most peoples pensions and has cost the ordinary working man more than any Tory government since Sydney?
Your much vaunted ex leader should be still doing time for the first event buddy, instead of going around spouting off against a legal referendum he doesn't like the result of. He needlessly cost British Soldiers lives.
If he had put his name behind remain, and been more involved in the run up to the vote, he may have solved the problem by getting more people to vote to leave.
Time to renew that free bus pass again Selby. Try updating your knowledge while you're at it!
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Alf Garnet has a lot to answer for.
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Alf Garnet has a lot to answer for.
Why so? Selby has made a reasonable statement without resorting to personal abuse, unlike...
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The most cursory of arguments with Brexiters will throw up some massive,
gaping hole in knowledge or some delusion about the EU.
it’s a scapegoat for underlying grievances (some of which may well be justified).
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The most cursory of arguments with Brexiters will throw up some massive,
gaping hole in knowledge or some delusion about the EU.
it’s a scapegoat for underlying grievances (some of which may well be justified).
I would view Brexit as a first step in changing this country for the better. None of the major parties want to change anything in reality. It suits them to keep things as they are. If you can't change anything with a general election then this was the key to the lock to boot them up the harris and bring real change.
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Which side of the divide took us into an illegal war and whose economic policy's caused austerity? Sydney. Which side of the divide raided and changed the rules on most peoples pensions and has cost the ordinary working man more than any Tory government since Sydney?
Your much vaunted ex leader should be still doing time for the first event buddy, instead of going around spouting off against a legal referendum he doesn't like the result of. He needlessly cost British Soldiers lives.
If he had put his name behind remain, and been more involved in the run up to the vote, he may have solved the problem by getting more people to vote to leave.
Time to renew that free bus pass again Selby. Try updating your knowledge while you're at it!
Pathetic.
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Alf Garnet has a lot to answer for.
Pathetic.
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perhaps one , measurable , verifiable example of how Brexit will make this country better for me ?
but indeed , to quote Greta Thunberg , change is coming !!!
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Don't bother Steve it would take more than a jumped up young spunk bubble to bother me.
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Foxbat, I would bet you the same old people make the big bucks out of any change that comes, in fact they are already milking it.
In fact with automation etc. the biggest difference will be they will not have to pay so many minions to make their money.
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would these be the same people that are betting on the pound dropping through the floor after a Brexit,
and want to avoid the the (good old) EU clampdown on offshore tax avoidance ,
like Reece Mogg and his Eton chums , I wonder ?
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this is the reality
Bloody hell - even Rachel Johnson just now on R4 actually saying BJ under pressure from individuals
who have invested billions in shorting the £ on assumption of no deal - she actually said that, out and proud
#failedstate
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Don't bother Steve it would take more than a jumped up young spunk bubble to bother me.
Happy to take that as a compliment Selby if it was aimed at me, my point about Alf Garnet if it needs explaining at all is about the syndrome that I don't and never will get is why working class people vote for the tories and the queen, I don't know your background you may well be Sir Selby for all I know but it was a frustrated broad swipe rather than a precision strike.
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Get real Foxbat, What is surprising, when have people with real money ever bothered who they make money off.
It has been going on since man came to live on Earth.
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If you mean people who have lived through both labour and conservative governments, then I own up.
There has not been a lot of difference other than when Labour is in power, most of the investment goes out of the country and more people are out of work. And my tax bill goes up, and the unions get mad with the government, the labour government look about and raid whatever funds they can, such as pensions last time, and people go on strike, and at the next election most vote conservative, investment comes back to the country, and it all starts again.
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Iberian Red, I have not got a buss pass, there are no buses to get on where I live, but both the wife and I need a car each to get to the end of the drive, and on to do our business.
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My apologies Sir Selby
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Syd, the people who know me have called me all sorts of names, I cannot remember Sir many times though.
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My apologies Sir Selby
What about me, Lord Steve?
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Oy! What about Baron Bullet of Bentley?
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what about Baron Bently De Mulder?
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Oy! What about Baron Bullet of Bentley?
I thought that the bullet got fired.🙂😉
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A jumped up young spunk!
Thanks for the compliment! I've just spunked up laughing!
I havent been called young for a very long time!
Ha,ha,and thanks again!
Don't bother Steve it would take more than a jumped up young spunk bubble to bother me.
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what about Baron Bently De Mulder?
He buggered off with his bird, Scully.
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No problem I B like anything at your age it only took a moment.
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Thread locked. Admin, out *mic drop*