Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: albie on May 08, 2020, 01:56:51 pm
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According to TalkSport;
https://talksport.com/football/efl/703590/leagues-one-two-abandoned-next-week-efl-promotion-relegation/
Points per game to decide final table.
It was always going to come to this IMO.
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Seems like the only sensible outcome however - we lose Rovvrum upwards but gain Barnsley coming down - I also think teams will unfortunately fold - just hope we’re not one of those
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Be interesting to see what happens re contracts.what players will we have left?
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If this does happen, then it's maybe the best solution. I do wonder if it could lead to a rethink on the non-league decision to void, maybe they could come back and change that to PPG as well?
Will be interesting to see what the reaction is from those clubs adversely affected.
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Does that mean that Notlob will be relegated?
(Monty Python reference)
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Alfie May promoted with Cheltenham.
PPG does seem a bit crude in this day and age, though. Could they not use an algorithm to work it out?
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Just cos it's to be voted on dunt mean they will all vote for it, but as mong as Bolton go down I'm happy
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Alfie May promoted with Cheltenham.
PPG does seem a bit crude in this day and age, though. Could they not use an algorithm to work it out?
I think it will always come down to PPG as such but I think what you're saying is the level of detail put into it:
Should it be PPG since the transfer window closed?
Or the last 6 games?
10 games?
Or since every club appointed their current manager?
Should there be a separate home and away PPG to account for some teams that had unbalanced run ins?
Or does that kind of stuff even out across a season?
I'm sure someone will be shafted by this. I'm sure someone will benefit from this (DRFC would have in previous years given some of the collapses we've had under SoD and Dickov). Not sure if there's any other way if we're completely adamant games can't take place.
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Well, for a season that's felt like it's never really got going, it looks like strictly speaking it's not going to end.
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Well, for a season that's felt like it's never really got going, it looks like strictly speaking it's not going to end.
Succinct
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Just cos it's to be voted on dunt mean they will all vote for it, but as mong as Bolton go down I'm happy
You might want to change mong for long
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Ha ha but no I will leave it it fits in with the Bolton lot
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The Free Press is suggesting that a weighted points per game will be used based on home & away performance. Has Rovers staying in 9th, 5 points behind Fleetwood.
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Whatever they use doesnt work. I'd prefer it all being scrapped but theres no win either way.
For rovers league 1 football works best next season whatever.
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Seems like the only sensible outcome however - we lose Rovvrum upwards but gain Barnsley coming down - I also think teams will unfortunately fold - just hope we’re not one of those
Barnsley coming down.
Has the Championship decided to end with ppg then.
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Alfie May promoted with Cheltenham.
PPG does seem a bit crude in this day and age, though. Could they not use an algorithm to work it out?
I think it will always come down to PPG as such but I think what you're saying is the level of detail put into it:
Should it be PPG since the transfer window closed?
Or the last 6 games?
10 games?
Or since every club appointed their current manager?
Should there be a separate home and away PPG to account for some teams that had unbalanced run ins?
Or does that kind of stuff even out across a season?
I'm sure someone will be shafted by this. I'm sure someone will benefit from this (DRFC would have in previous years given some of the collapses we've had under SoD and Dickov). Not sure if there's any other way if we're completely adamant games can't take place.
SoD, Dickov and Ferguson.
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PPG doesn't take in to account the quality of the teams you're yet to play, only the ones you've played so if one teams destroyed the likes of Bolton, Southend and Tranmere they'll obviously have a better PPG than a team that's been playing Portsmouth, Coventry and Rotherham in the second half of the season. Peterborough, Sunderland and us all have easier run ins on paper than Oxford, Rotherham and Coventry do.
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PPG doesn't take in to account the quality of the teams you're yet to play, only the ones you've played so if one teams destroyed the likes of Bolton, Southend and Tranmere they'll obviously have a better PPG than a team that's been playing Portsmouth, Coventry and Rotherham in the second half of the season. Peterborough, Sunderland and us all have easier run ins on paper than Oxford, Rotherham and Coventry do.
You might have a case for it being harsh on the other clubs but the majority of our games are away and our away record is middling at best.
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Doesn't ppg mean that Posh end up 7th? I'm sure McAnthony has already said he will start legal proceedings if that happens
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I don't think Frankie Rennie will be pleased with this.
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I can see the law suits coming out if the season is decided by committee and statisticians.
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Duckworth Lewis method.?
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I dont know what all the fuss is about.
Everyone knew that it was unlikely that the rest of this seasons games would be played and a solution had to be found.
As the saying goes, you can’t please all of the people all of the time.
Whatever decision is/was taken there will be some clubs and fans who don’t like it and some that will.
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Play it on FIFA. Its as good a way as any and a lot safe than many of the other possibilities.
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Doesn't ppg mean that Posh end up 7th? I'm sure McAnthony has already said he will start legal proceedings if that happens
He’s only pissed off because he knows he’ll lose Toney
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Doesn't ppg mean that Posh end up 7th? I'm sure McAnthony has already said he will start legal proceedings if that happens
He’s only pissed off because he knows he’ll lose Toney
I assume that there won’t be any play off matches so what difference would it make to Peterbro whether they finished seventh?
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Probably promoting the 4th Team if no Play offs ?
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That would mean 4 teams coming down from the championship so that’s unlikely.?
Concocted outcomes are unsatisfactory in my opinion. If the season cannot be played out, then cancel the lot and start next time as if it were this one.. Bolton on -12 but not sure about Bury.
At least for Doncaster I can’t see any “model” which would see us go down and it whilst we were in a shout for the play offs, it was going to be tougher for us to reach that than for teams in those slots to drop out..
We can’t affect how this will pan out anyway.
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Probably promoting the 4th Team if no Play offs ?
Presume you mean 3rd placed team in Championship & league 1 and 4th placed team in league 2
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That would mean 4 teams coming down from the championship so that’s unlikely.?
Concocted outcomes are unsatisfactory in my opinion. If the season cannot be played out, then cancel the lot and start next time as if it were this one.. Bolton on -12 but not sure about Bury.
At least for Doncaster I can’t see any “model” which would see us go down and it whilst we were in a shout for the play offs, it was going to be tougher for us to reach that than for teams in those slots to drop out..
We can’t affect how this will pan out anyway.
Each team has played anything between 34-36 games already this season, they were never going to to just cancel the season and nor should they. This is the right outcome imo should they formally announce this, which I understand is going to happen sometime this week.
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Probably promoting the 4th Team if no Play offs ?
Presume you mean 3rd placed team in Championship & league 1 and 4th placed team in league 2
Yes - was only talking about why Posh would be narked but forgot it was top 2 up and then usually 3 4 5 & 6 that Play off - so Posh would be narked if they were contrived to have finished 7
Then again if they Promoted Oxford instead of having Play-offs there are 2 more Teams on same points as them (60) and behind on GD
I can see it getting messy (no s**t Sherlock statement I know)
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Probably promoting the 4th Team if no Play offs ?
Presume you mean 3rd placed team in Championship & league 1 and 4th placed team in league 2
Yes - was only talking about why Posh would be narked but forgot it was top 2 up and then usually 3 4 5 & 6 that Play off - so Posh would be narked if they were contrived to have finished 7
Then again if they Promoted Oxford instead of having Play-offs there are 2 more Teams on same points as them (60) and behind on GD
I can see it getting messy (no s**t Sherlock statement I know)
PPG would see Wycombe promoted, not Oxford
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Probably promoting the 4th Team if no Play offs ?
Presume you mean 3rd placed team in Championship & league 1 and 4th placed team in league 2
Yes - was only talking about why Posh would be narked but forgot it was top 2 up and then usually 3 4 5 & 6 that Play off - so Posh would be narked if they were contrived to have finished 7
Then again if they Promoted Oxford instead of having Play-offs there are 2 more Teams on same points as them (60) and behind on GD
I can see it getting messy (no s**t Sherlock statement I know)
PPG would see Wycombe promoted, not Oxford
A quote ridiculous outcome. Wycombe were going to struggle to even make the play-offs.
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Probably promoting the 4th Team if no Play offs ?
Presume you mean 3rd placed team in Championship & league 1 and 4th placed team in league 2
Yes - was only talking about why Posh would be narked but forgot it was top 2 up and then usually 3 4 5 & 6 that Play off - so Posh would be narked if they were contrived to have finished 7
Then again if they Promoted Oxford instead of having Play-offs there are 2 more Teams on same points as them (60) and behind on GD
I can see it getting messy (no s**t Sherlock statement I know)
PPG would see Wycombe promoted, not Oxford
PPG will see Coventry, Rotherham & Oxford promoted.
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Probably promoting the 4th Team if no Play offs ?
Presume you mean 3rd placed team in Championship & league 1 and 4th placed team in league 2
Yes - was only talking about why Posh would be narked but forgot it was top 2 up and then usually 3 4 5 & 6 that Play off - so Posh would be narked if they were contrived to have finished 7
Then again if they Promoted Oxford instead of having Play-offs there are 2 more Teams on same points as them (60) and behind on GD
I can see it getting messy (no s**t Sherlock statement I know)
PPG would see Wycombe promoted, not Oxford
PPG will see Coventry, Rotherham & Oxford.
Oxford would be on 1.71 ppg
Wycombe would be on 1.73 ppg
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It's weighted based on away games being worth more than home games.
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Probably promoting the 4th Team if no Play offs ?
No, because the information coming out is that Coventry,Rotherham and Oxford are to be promoted.
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Not sure how they will cook the books in the Championship but any kind of formula is going to see Dingles and Luton come down and looks pretty clear for Charlton. Not fearful really about any of those next season. Good clubs but not huge clubs. Then again, Sunderland have hardly dominated League One these last few seasons.
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Have just done a spreadsheet, and using separate ppg calculations for home and away matches averaging home and away performance, and then averaging the ppg home and ppg away scores gives:
1.971 Coventry City
1.770 Rotherham United
1.725 Oxford United
1.704 Fleetwood
1.703 Peterborough United
1.698 Wycombe Wanderers
1.696 Portsmouth
1.618 Sunderland
1.554 Doncaster Rovers
Portmouth lose 3 places by having a stellar home record, a poor away record, and having having fewer home matches left than away matches
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The only thing I have against PPG would be that it doesn't take into account the fact that Leeds always bottle it towards the end of the season.
Besides, I won't believe this is the way forward until SM confirms it!
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Seems fair enough result really. Our away record has been dire and we don’t deserve to go up. Those top two are good sides and Oxford have been very good at times. Clearly good news that Peterborough not getting promoted.
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Can’t please all of the people all of the time.. those with vested interests in promotion/relegation will shout loudest. Personally I’m comfortable with ending the season now and applying current positions. We are in unprecedented times and there are are no right or wrong solutions .
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If an away victory is going to be seen as worth more when sorting out promotion in this situation, Why are they worth no more than three points in any other situation?
It looks like a reason for a visit to the courts to me.
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If an away victory is going to be seen as worth more when sorting out promotion in this situation, Why are they worth no more than three points in any other situation?
It looks like a reason for a visit to the courts to me.
Home and away games are seen as equal. The point is that since most teams would not perform equally well at home and away, then the number of home and away games is taken into account in giving a ppg average. Portsmouth come out worse than most of a close group simply because they have a great home record, a poor away record, and more away games left than home games.
We too were in the same home and away situation, but were significantly worse off than all teams above us and significantly better than all those below us, and so it made no difference to our 9th position.
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On this afternoon’s Talksport it stated that Wycombe would be promoted
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On this afternoon’s Talksport it stated that Wycombe would be promoted
That would be the case if a simple ppg (not allowing any difference between home and away form) is used.
All theoretical until any decision is made. IMHO allowing for difference between home and away form is slightly fairer, or maybe better said as - slightly less unfair
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If an away victory is going to be seen as worth more when sorting out promotion in this situation, Why are they worth no more than three points in any other situation?
It looks like a reason for a visit to the courts to me.
What do you propose instead Selby? They have to do something. If they void the season, teams at the top will be upset. If they do PPG or leave it as it is now, then others behind them and in the relegation zones will be upset. If they commit to finishing behind closed doors, they may not be able to do it in a reasonable time frame and contracts and TV rights become a bigger issue.
The authorities have to come up with a solution knowing it cannot please everybody.
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Every game whether home or away is played all season for three points a game, so why suddenly are three points away more than three points at home?
If they made it four points for an away game throughout the season I would have no problem, it would probably encourage more attacking football, why bring in another theory when straight points per game would suffice.
It is an off the field idea there is no need of, or is it they just fancy giving Oxford a leg up instead of Wycombe?
Whatever system is used, all I can see is trouble in the courts if any promotion or relegation is implemented. As the governing body I would void the season in the EFL, and as the keeper of the competition take my chances in any court case.
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Selby,
If the proposed end to the season is signed off by a majority of the EFL members in a fair vote, then what grounds are there for a legal challenge?
Genuine question, because you have lost me with this!
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Every game whether home or away is played all season for three points a game, so why suddenly are three points away more than three points at home?
If they made it four points for an away game throughout the season I would have no problem, it would probably encourage more attacking football, why bring in another theory when straight points per game would suffice.
It is an off the field idea there is no need of, or is it they just fancy giving Oxford a leg up instead of Wycombe?
Whatever system is used, all I can see is trouble in the courts if any promotion or relegation is implemented. As the governing body I would void the season in the EFL, and as the keeper of the competition take my chances in any court case.
Either way, there are going to be challenges in court Brian. That's the trouble with this virus. No-one's got a clue what's going to happen, regarding football, the lock-down, or anything else.
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Every game whether home or away is played all season for three points a game, so why suddenly are three points away more than three points at home?
If they made it four points for an away game throughout the season I would have no problem, it would probably encourage more attacking football, why bring in another theory when straight points per game would suffice.
It is an off the field idea there is no need of, or is it they just fancy giving Oxford a leg up instead of Wycombe?
Whatever system is used, all I can see is trouble in the courts if any promotion or relegation is implemented. As the governing body I would void the season in the EFL, and as the keeper of the competition take my chances in any court case.
I think you’re confused with what they are doing with away games. They’re not saying it’s worth more, they’re adopting a system that considers your PPG average both at home and away to give a more realistic forecast outcome. If anything they’re saying that away games are worth less as Portsmouth, with a lot of away games left, will be predicted to get fewer points as a consequence of their poor away record.
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Doesn't ppg mean that Posh end up 7th? I'm sure McAnthony has already said he will start legal proceedings if that happens
He’s only pissed off because he knows he’ll lose Toney
I assume that there won’t be any play off matches so what difference would it make to Peterbro whether they finished seventh?
Just a wild guess but perhaps he thought there would be playoffs for 3rd place
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Just came across an interview today with D Mc "we are contracted to play 9 games why can't we finish the season"
This is going to end intears
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In my view it’s an unnecessary thing to do. It’s going to cause problems. Cancelling the season as it stands is fairer. No ups no downs. Start next season a fresh
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If you have worked hard for nearly forty games to achieve success why should it all just go up in smoke?
I think that the PPG with allowances included for home and away games is the fairest method. The only thing it doesn't take into account is a team going on a far better run of form than anybody would predict.
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If an away victory is going to be seen as worth more when sorting out promotion in this situation, Why are they worth no more than three points in any other situation?
It looks like a reason for a visit to the courts to me.
What do you propose instead Selby? They have to do something. If they void the season, teams at the top will be upset. If they do PPG or leave it as it is now, then others behind them and in the relegation zones will be upset. If they commit to finishing behind closed doors, they may not be able to do it in a reasonable time frame and contracts and TV rights become a bigger issue.
The authorities have to come up with a solution knowing it cannot please everybody.
Agreed with that, but what they have come up with is pretty much the bluntest of instruments.
I'd have preferred to see something a little more sophisticated. Something that took into account form weighted over the season, and the standard of opponents left.
If two teams have very similar H&A weighted PPG, but one side hasn't yet played 4 of the top six and the other side hasn't yet played 4 of the bottom 6, it pretty clear who is the better side up to present.
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I have stated before, I would void the season with no relegation or promotion, I am happy with our position we were in and had hopes we were at last getting it together, and fancied our chances of scraping in the playoffs.
But that was only my opinion at the time and a guess, which everything else is if they start adjusting points per game other than the points already won in the season.
How does any mathematical statistic take into account scores like Fulham 0 Barnsley 3 sorry Tyke.
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Not sure how they will cook the books in the Championship but any kind of formula is going to see Dingles and Luton come down and looks pretty clear for Charlton. Not fearful really about any of those next season. Good clubs but not huge clubs. Then again, Sunderland have hardly dominated League One these last few seasons.
saw that coming on November 30th
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=275083.msg925390#msg925390
meanwhile bookmakers have to return all bets ... their rules will cover this eventuality
so on a positive note (visible with the aid of a magnifying glass) bets on Rovers even Bolton to be relegated are void.
perhaps someone can do graphs of say 12 match moving points per game averages per team over the season (with shares chartists used to produce 30 day moving averages for share prices before computers made it easy)
BST should be in his element here
it is so obvious Wycombes form is on a downhill ski slope and they deserve nothing.
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I have stated before, I would void the season with no relegation or promotion, I am happy with our position we were in and had hopes we were at last getting it together, and fancied our chances of scraping in the playoffs.
But that was only my opinion at the time and a guess, which everything else is if they start adjusting points per game other than the points already won in the season.
How does any mathematical statistic take into account scores like Fulham 0 Barnsley 3 sorry Tyke.
Sorry but that is utterly rediculous to suggest voiding a season that is 3/4 complete. With clubs having completed anything between 34 to 36 games this season and not being able to complete the remaining games can only be resolved by PPG, cricket applies a similar logic with DL process so why cant football.
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Every game whether home or away is played all season for three points a game, so why suddenly are three points away more than three points at home?
If they made it four points for an away game throughout the season I would have no problem, it would probably encourage more attacking football, why bring in another theory when straight points per game would suffice.
It is an off the field idea there is no need of, or is it they just fancy giving Oxford a leg up instead of Wycombe?
Whatever system is used, all I can see is trouble in the courts if any promotion or relegation is implemented. As the governing body I would void the season in the EFL, and as the keeper of the competition take my chances in any court case.
I think you’re confused with what they are doing with away games. They’re not saying it’s worth more, they’re adopting a system that considers your PPG average both at home and away to give a more realistic forecast outcome. If anything they’re saying that away games are worth less as Portsmouth, with a lot of away games left, will be predicted to get fewer points as a consequence of their poor away record.
That is how I understood it too Nick.
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Every game whether home or away is played all season for three points a game, so why suddenly are three points away more than three points at home?
If they made it four points for an away game throughout the season I would have no problem, it would probably encourage more attacking football, why bring in another theory when straight points per game would suffice.
It is an off the field idea there is no need of, or is it they just fancy giving Oxford a leg up instead of Wycombe?
Whatever system is used, all I can see is trouble in the courts if any promotion or relegation is implemented. As the governing body I would void the season in the EFL, and as the keeper of the competition take my chances in any court case.
Either way, there are going to be challenges in court Brian. That's the trouble with this virus. No-one's got a clue what's going to happen, regarding football, the lock-down, or anything else.
“No ones got a clue what is going to happen, regarding football, the lockdown or anything else.”
Not sure you can say that SS.
There are plenty of people who know what is going to happen, apparently.
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ND, I have explained before, I would void the season as far as not awarding promotion or relegation, but would start a full season as soon as practical and start every team with the exact same points where they stood any games teams were behind such as us to be played during that season, and nobody would be disadvantaged or advantaged and join both sets of points together for relegation and promotion next season.
Hound, I have listened quite a lot to different people, Chairmen, Committee, FA, Premier League CEO etc. and all know what is going off, the trouble is they all want a different thing.
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If an away victory is going to be seen as worth more when sorting out promotion in this situation, Why are they worth no more than three points in any other situation?
It looks like a reason for a visit to the courts to me.
What do you propose instead Selby? They have to do something. If they void the season, teams at the top will be upset. If they do PPG or leave it as it is now, then others behind them and in the relegation zones will be upset. If they commit to finishing behind closed doors, they may not be able to do it in a reasonable time frame and contracts and TV rights become a bigger issue.
The authorities have to come up with a solution knowing it cannot please everybody.
Agreed with that, but what they have come up with is pretty much the bluntest of instruments.
I'd have preferred to see something a little more sophisticated. Something that took into account form weighted over the season, and the standard of opponents left.
If two teams have very similar H&A weighted PPG, but one side hasn't yet played 4 of the top six and the other side hasn't yet played 4 of the bottom 6, it pretty clear who is the better side up to present.
I completely understand that thinking, but once you start factoring in modelling of games yet to happen, it begins to get away from being based on merit. The season is a significant way through the season, we have a fair assessment of every team from 35 or so matches, so I think PPG up to where we are now is more fair than the other methods.
They can't legislate for games unplanned that will have gone against expectation. Nobody had us beating Wigan 3-1 the year we went down under Ferguson, for instance.
It's tough, for sure. The only thing I am dead against is null and void because that just punishes everyone and makes the season's efforts, time and money all for nothing.
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ND, I have explained before, I would void the season as far as not awarding promotion or relegation, but would start a full season as soon as practical and start every team with the exact same points where they stood any games teams were behind such as us to be played during that season, and nobody would be disadvantaged or advantaged and join both sets of points together for relegation and promotion next season.
Hound, I have listened quite a lot to different people, Chairmen, Committee, FA, Premier League CEO etc. and all know what is going off, the trouble is they all want a different thing.
.......yep and I am not surprised selby.
As I have said, you can’t please all of the people all of the time.
Cancelling the season is objectionable for some.
To be honest, I don’t like the suggestion that you have made above.
We have to just let the EFL people come to a decision.
No doubt some people will take their toys in but that applies to all walks of life when things don’t go their way.
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Colemans left hook wrote
'meanwhile bookmakers have to return all bets ... their rules will cover this eventuality'
was wondering what would happen to my pre season ante post bets. Is that how it works - they are counted as non runners and money returned? If so that's the first time I've broken even!
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If an away victory is going to be seen as worth more when sorting out promotion in this situation, Why are they worth no more than three points in any other situation?
It looks like a reason for a visit to the courts to me.
What do you propose instead Selby? They have to do something. If they void the season, teams at the top will be upset. If they do PPG or leave it as it is now, then others behind them and in the relegation zones will be upset. If they commit to finishing behind closed doors, they may not be able to do it in a reasonable time frame and contracts and TV rights become a bigger issue.
The authorities have to come up with a solution knowing it cannot please everybody.
Agreed with that, but what they have come up with is pretty much the bluntest of instruments.
I'd have preferred to see something a little more sophisticated. Something that took into account form weighted over the season, and the standard of opponents left.
If two teams have very similar H&A weighted PPG, but one side hasn't yet played 4 of the top six and the other side hasn't yet played 4 of the bottom 6, it pretty clear who is the better side up to present.
I completely understand that thinking, but once you start factoring in modelling of games yet to happen, it begins to get away from being based on merit. The season is a significant way through the season, we have a fair assessment of every team from 35 or so matches, so I think PPG up to where we are now is more fair than the other methods.
They can't legislate for games unplanned that will have gone against expectation. Nobody had us beating Wigan 3-1 the year we went down under Ferguson, for instance.
It's tough, for sure. The only thing I am dead against is null and void because that just punishes everyone and makes the season's efforts, time and money all for nothing.
In cricket, they have regularly been factoring in a best guess of what would happen in sections of a match which didn't get to be played. Because they recognised years ago that a blunt averaging approach was hopelessly unfair.
I don't see why that logic shouldn't apply here.
Of course you can't legislate for specific unexpected occurrences. But that's not what anyone is expecting to do. Just like the Duckworth-Lewis method doesn't legislate for a dropped dolly catch or a sudden inspired spell of bowling, or a batsman given not out when he clearly was. You build a model that does the best it can with the data at hand. Blunt PPG averaging is a million miles off that.
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Whatever we think here is really not worth the effort. A meeting is set for this week, really the EFL should be making the decision, but they will put certain things forward and the clubs will make the decisions and vote on them.
Disappointing to me that all the talk of a reset in football, a more equal share of the goodies going down the leagues gone within five weeks, while Pogba, Ramsey, Bale and others are talking of multi million pound transfers and the agents are getting ready for more riches.
All talk of doing the best for the game will go straight out of the window in those votes with most clubs just thinking of themselves, the top sides wanting promotion and the relegation threatened wanting the season voiding.
However the teams like us under no such pressure if they got together could hold the key. The Peterborough owner is against a wage cap, the Tranmere owner is for one interesting times ahead.
One tip I will give the Boro owner, his manager will be useless without a pot of money, he even knows it himself.
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Darragh MacAnthony was in the Guardian today proposing a wage cap based on turnover.
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And the reason the EFL will let the clubs decide is fairly obvious to me, he says washing the blood off his hands
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He said on talksport2 he was not convinced about wage caps across the board which would go along with that article Nick which i have not seen. He did not sound that keen on the idea as it was explained.
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Well we are down under every idea they can think of including Duckworth and Lewis I've no doubt .
No point us belly aching either , we simply haven't been good enough .
I think the people running the game and those who own clubs are going to be in for a big shock when football does eventually return .
Many people aren't going to have the kind of money they had pre pandemic and that includes Sky Sports subscriptions .
There's going to be an almighty depression and football will not escape it .
Small clubs are going to be under real financial pressure just to survive but I also think many of the big championship clubs such as Derby County , Nottingham Forest and Wednesday are going to be in massive trouble .
Watch for the situation at Tottenham too , a billion pound new stadium to pay for .
Good luck with that with what's coming down the road .
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This is all pointless if the Premiership decide to abandon their season. No teams would go down, so not allowing Championship teams to go up having a domino affect on EFL
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For once, we ate at an ideal position in the table, we were unlikely to go up or down, so which ever way they decide has little effect on us, thats why theres relative calm on this forum
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Tyke 1962. You make a very good point
I do feel that the country will recovery quickly and the economy will recover
Short term some clubs and other businesses will suffer and some will close unfortunately
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Darragh MacAnthony was in the Guardian today proposing a wage cap based on turnover.
In principle we already have one of those, it's called FFP.
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This is all pointless if the Premiership decide to abandon their season. No teams would go down, so not allowing Championship teams to go up having a domino affect on EFL
Even if they do abandon the EPL season, they will crown Liverpool champions, appoint the Champions/Europa League positions and nominate the three teams to go down based on final standings.
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Tyke 1962. You make a very good point
I do feel that the country will recovery quickly and the economy will recover
Short term some clubs and other businesses will suffer and some will close unfortunately
Well in my opinion and I could may well be wrong , I often am.
I don't think that football today is as popular as they would like to think it is .
For me personally I haven't missed it since it stopped due to the pandemic , I take the point we are having a terrible season but we've had poor seasons before , lots of em and once we got to the middle of June I was counting the weeks down for the season to start , couldn't wait .
That's not how I feel anymore and I haven't for a good number of years .
Tell you now meeting up with my mates in the pub pre match is probably the only thing that's kept me going , saturday is my release day and understood by her who always knows best , 5 hours on a saturday afternoon is my time .
Take that away and I'd hardly bother with it to tell the truth .
Everything about this game today winds me up , ticket prices , daft KO times , agents , greedy players with no loyalty to nobody but their bank accounts , foreign owners ripping the heart n soul out of clubs including my own .
I wonder how many people out there think the same up and down the country , this break from the game might be a real game changer for many and it may well be they aren't missing it as much as they thought they would and their money could be better spent .
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Old Number 7 for a Barnsley (Acorn of course) better than Stancill but not as good as the "real" original BB. Makes me envious of the pre match entertainment at least. Arcade Alehouse seems ok as well for real ale
I was almost a Tyke myself with Dad moving to Grimethorpe when he were a lad but he upped sticks over to Donny and the rest is history as they say
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OH Wolfie, what a lucky escape that was.
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OH Wolfie, what a lucky escape that was.
Well to be fair Selby that's debatable looking at the history of the two clubs .
:aok:
A great example last season of the modern game , during the international break in early March SKY picks our game at Southend United for live TV coverage .
For the Saturday lunch time spot ?????
Absolutely no reason I can think of to put the game on at that time , cover the game by all means but what was wrong with the Saturday evening slot at 5.30pm or Sunday afternoon .
There were no PL or Championship games bear in mind .
Who thought of our fans with regard to that KO time , absolutely nobody .
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Old Number 7 for a Barnsley (Acorn of course) better than Stancill but not as good as the "real" original BB. Makes me envious of the pre match entertainment at least. Arcade Alehouse seems ok as well for real ale
I was almost a Tyke myself with Dad moving to Grimethorpe when he were a lad but he upped sticks over to Donny and the rest is history as they say
That's an interesting one Wolfie. My dad's family are from Thurnscoe, which as you know is about halfway between Donny and Barnsley. This is reflected by who Thurnscoe people support. All the folk I know, including my uncles and cousins, seem to be completely split down the middle on Rovers or Tykes.
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This is all pointless if the Premiership decide to abandon their season. No teams would go down, so not allowing Championship teams to go up having a domino affect on EFL
Even if they do abandon the EPL season, they will crown Liverpool champions, appoint the Champions/Europa League positions and nominate the three teams to go down based on final standings.
How can any club be declared champions of an abandoned season.? Surely the season will need to be completed either by playing football or by concocting a formula to apply points to finish the season.
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Tyke, what about the accent he would have had, and the thrill of going in the canal at Thorne head first he would have missed out on.
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This is all pointless if the Premiership decide to abandon their season. No teams would go down, so not allowing Championship teams to go up having a domino affect on EFL
Even if they do abandon the EPL season, they will crown Liverpool champions, appoint the Champions/Europa League positions and nominate the three teams to go down based on final standings.
How can any club be declared champions of an abandoned season.? Surely the season will need to be completed either by playing football or by concocting a formula to apply points to finish the season.
Why not, why can't it be based on the current standings, even if you levelled it out at 28 games played per piece, Liverpool are 25 points ahead as it is. France have done it awarding PSG the title, why can't the EPL?
Other sports (Formula 1& Cricket are two that I can think of right now) have a process for awarding races, matches for abandoned games.
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Depends if you mean abandoning in the strictest sense which would mean season voided, or in a sense where a conclusion is concocted.?
I was meaning in the case of the former in my previous response.
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The thing is, I was concerned that I hadn't heard this story, (of finishing the season this way) from any other source, which is a strange one seeing as the EFL have been keeping us informed of their discussions for some time. So, I though I'd check the details and see where TalkSport got their story from, and it seems they haven't reported this accurately at all.
You can read the transcript of the Select Committee session in question at:
https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/335/html/
Rick Parry’s evidence to the Select Committee did not contain anything saying a proposal would be put to clubs this coming week or that a vote would be held. This was the question and his reply:
“Philip Davies: Finally, can you tell us the mechanism for determining whether you will complete your season? Do the clubs themselves decide, or does the EFL board decide for them? What is the decision-making process in the EFL to decide whether you will finish your season?
Rick Parry: It will go to the clubs. I think the board technically has the powers to make a decision, but it would be wholly appropriate, in this situation, to make sure that it went to the clubs.”
Basically he was asked what the mechanism would be for any decision and he told them.
The word “vote” appears nowhere in the transcript!
If you take the time and trouble to read this you'll find some interesting information on salary caps, size of squads, and an intention to finish the season!!
Q11 is very interesting from a sustainability point of view.
Q15/16 about promotion and relegation to the EPL
Q25 about a restructuring of finances
Q32 about the size of squads (players not in contract take note!)
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Thanks for the link SM, that made for very interesting reading indeed, and not only the section on football.
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No worries NNK. I'm surprised that more people haven't commented to be honest as that appearance in front of the select committee by Rick Parry raises numerous questions and talking points.
Across this forum people are asking all the right questions but an up to date position with the EFL is in that interview.
I'm now hearing that the EFL have a government meeting this week and followed by a meeting of all clubs. We may get an up to date picture this weekend.
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EFL Clubs Meeting this coming Friday with a decision expected shortly afterwards.
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EFL Clubs Meeting this coming Friday with a decision expected shortly afterwards.
Yep, as I mentioned above. Meeting with Government on Thursday, clubs on Friday, but I think you may be disappointed about a decision shortly afterwards if my updated info is correct.
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I read the transcript (the football parts) today - thanks SM.
It is difficult to comment when we are so far removed from what is going on, other than it is clear that there are lots of variables and lots of discussions being had.
Whether there are any long term changes to how football is financed as a result of all these goings on, remains to be seen.
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Guardian article on the next steps;
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/may/12/efl-clubs-set-for-crunch-talks-this-week-to-find-solution-to-unfinished-season
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Guardian article on the next steps;
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/may/12/efl-clubs-set-for-crunch-talks-this-week-to-find-solution-to-unfinished-season
From quickly reading that article it would appear that they are in for an interesting meeting.
League one and two clubs don’t appear to be in favour of playing behind closed doors because of financial issues around that while a Championship source suggested that several clubs are against the season resuming.
The EFL are in favour of resuming the season but it would appear that lots of clubs are against it.
Individually too some players have voiced fears about playing.
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Lincoln with lay a new pitch because they’ve dug Sincil Bank up
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EFL Clubs Meeting this coming Friday with a decision expected shortly afterwards.
Yep, as I mentioned above. Meeting with Government on Thursday, clubs on Friday, but I think you may be disappointed about a decision shortly afterwards if my updated info is correct.
Is the meeting just to discuss this current seasons ending or will it be to discuss future changes too?
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I thought there was a proposal that promotions would stand but relegation wouldn't, and the PL would just accept 3 more teams?
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Here’s a thought, apologies if it has been said before..
Play out this season, eventually, probably behind closed doors - but to finish by Christmas.
Run the 2021 season say February to October - and then again the same in 2022.
That would then align with the World Cup starting in November that year.
Of course this would need to be an international plan driven by FIFA, and almost certainly not going to happen.
Just a thought.?
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So does this mean Bolton escape punishment once again?
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BBC take on the situation;
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52644313
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BBC take on the situation;
https://www.bbc.com/sport/football/52644313
Lots of potential problems there then.
Had to laugh about how they emphasised that Sunderland would have to have another year in L1.
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As I said before, the best sporting option is to play out the season.
The least worst alternative is to void the season.
Anything else opens up a whole can of worms.
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EFL Clubs Meeting this coming Friday with a decision expected shortly afterwards.
Yep, as I mentioned above. Meeting with Government on Thursday, clubs on Friday, but I think you may be disappointed about a decision shortly afterwards if my updated info is correct.
Is the meeting just to discuss this current seasons ending or will it be to discuss future changes too?
Nobody knows, the EFL haven't given the clubs an agenda, nor have they intimated what may or may not be discussed. My info says that they will be talking but no decisions will be made and no votes taken.
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The EFL do have a history of not being able to make a decision.
This could be something else that drags on and on.
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The EFL do have a history of not being able to make a decision.
This could be something else that drags on and on.
Like the lockdown?
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TBH Bedale I don’t think the lockdown should have been eased off yet.
For another thread perhaps.
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Am i the only one who thinks unless we have an antidote/vaccination it will just re-occur until this is found? Social distancing and other measures such as a form of lockdown will be the only way we can stem the death toll, far more important than whether i see matches i paid for via my ST or when/whether i get to see next seasons. I have always been a Rovers fan out and out but this is MUCH bigger....
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Am i the only one who thinks unless we have an antidote/vaccination it will just re-occur until this is found? Social distancing and other measures such as a form of lockdown will be the only way we can stem the death toll, far more important than whether i see matches i paid for via my ST or when/whether i get to see next seasons. I have always been a Rovers fan out and out but this is MUCH bigger....
No you’re not the only one. The spread of the virus will go up and down relative to the relaxation and re implementation of lockdown measures.
We could easily get to a point where football had restarted but had to stop again.
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Am i the only one who thinks unless we have an antidote/vaccination it will just re-occur until this is found? Social distancing and other measures such as a form of lockdown will be the only way we can stem the death toll, far more important than whether i see matches i paid for via my ST or when/whether i get to see next seasons. I have always been a Rovers fan out and out but this is MUCH bigger....
No you’re not the only one. The spread of the virus will go up and down relative to the relaxation and re implementation of lockdown measures.
We could easily get to a point where football had restarted but had to stop again.
I also think the same.
IDM, I have posted elsewhere today that I am not certain that it is even worth starting next season due to the potential for further lockdowns disrupting the football again.
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Am i the only one who thinks unless we have an antidote/vaccination it will just re-occur until this is found? Social distancing and other measures such as a form of lockdown will be the only way we can stem the death toll, far more important than whether i see matches i paid for via my ST or when/whether i get to see next seasons. I have always been a Rovers fan out and out but this is MUCH bigger....
No you’re not the only one. The spread of the virus will go up and down relative to the relaxation and re implementation of lockdown measures.
We could easily get to a point where football had restarted but had to stop again.
I also think the same.
IDM, I have posted elsewhere today that I am not certain that it is even worth starting next season due to the potential for further lockdowns disrupting the football again.
You have to remember though that this is an industry employing many thousands, it needs to open up again like many others. My guess is it will, later this year, but with sever restrictions in place.
It will also look different to how it looks today, fewer players, lower salaries etc.
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Am i the only one who thinks unless we have an antidote/vaccination it will just re-occur until this is found? Social distancing and other measures such as a form of lockdown will be the only way we can stem the death toll, far more important than whether i see matches i paid for via my ST or when/whether i get to see next seasons. I have always been a Rovers fan out and out but this is MUCH bigger....
No you’re not the only one. The spread of the virus will go up and down relative to the relaxation and re implementation of lockdown measures.
We could easily get to a point where football had restarted but had to stop again.
I also think the same.
IDM, I have posted elsewhere today that I am not certain that it is even worth starting next season due to the potential for further lockdowns disrupting the football again.
You have to remember though that this is an industry employing many thousands, it needs to open up again like many others. My guess is it will, later this year, but with sever restrictions in place.
It will also look different to how it looks today, fewer players, lower salaries etc.
Yep, I understand about the football industry implications SM.
I just think it is inevitable that we will have similar problems with regards to lockdowns etc next season.
The only thing that can prevent that is a vaccine which can be given to everyone quickly.
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The latest statement from the EFL. It says nothing really and just confirms what I said earlier, that more discussions will take place but no votes or decisions yet.
https://www.efl.com/news/2020/may/efl-statement-coronavirus-update
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Am i the only one who thinks unless we have an antidote/vaccination it will just re-occur until this is found? Social distancing and other measures such as a form of lockdown will be the only way we can stem the death toll, far more important than whether i see matches i paid for via my ST or when/whether i get to see next seasons. I have always been a Rovers fan out and out but this is MUCH bigger....
No you’re not the only one. The spread of the virus will go up and down relative to the relaxation and re implementation of lockdown measures.
We could easily get to a point where football had restarted but had to stop again.
I also think the same.
IDM, I have posted elsewhere today that I am not certain that it is even worth starting next season due to the potential for further lockdowns disrupting the football again.
You have to remember though that this is an industry employing many thousands, it needs to open up again like many others. My guess is it will, later this year, but with sever restrictions in place.
It will also look different to how it looks today, fewer players, lower salaries etc.
Yep, I understand about the football industry implications SM.
I just think it is inevitable that we will have similar problems with regards to lockdowns etc next season.
The only thing that can prevent that is a vaccine which can be given to everyone quickly.
I think they'll find a way, as I stated earlier.
They need to open up again otherwise the whole football league will close permanently. They can't keep paying players and other members of staff indefinitely. They may be behind closed doors but if that's the case TV will take over and become the income stream they need.
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What we could not accept is a situation where we play all our games and get relegated, but the Championship can't play, and they automatically promote some teams who haven't finished the season," Norwich sporting director Stuart Webber told Sky Sports
Another twist in the story.. are we going to have this through out the leagues from the bottom sides?
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I don't know if anyone has pointed this out, but surely, from a selfish point of view the suggestion to have promotions without relegations benefits the Rovers immensely?
It would mean that when the next season starts, L1 is almost guaranteed to be of weaker overall quality than any other solution. We keep Bolton, Tranmere, Southend and Wimbledon and lose Barnsley, Charlton and Luton.
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absolutely fail to see how you can have promotion without relegation - that's complete nonsense - every argument for "saving" clubs from being relegated (unequal split home/away games - balance of easier/harder matches blah blah blah) can be applied with absolutely the same degree of impact to reasons why teams should not be promoted
has to be either up and down, or null and void - and I'd very strongly favour the latter
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Philosophically I think the argument is that erroneously giving someone a benefit and denying that to someone else is morally less bad than erroneously applying a punishment to someone.
I can see some merit in that.
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Talk about contriving a situation to suit your own means and ambitions lol:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52670556
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Talk about contriving a situation to suit your own means and ambitions lol:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52670556
Well if six clubs want to play but say, sixteen don’t, what happens next.
In a vote it would look to me like a win for the don’t wants.
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The 6 appear to be living in a dream world.
Tranmere are replacing sub surface drainage, and someone above said Lincoln are doing pitch work.
All the routine prep for the new season needs to be done, so just how they can squeeze it the outstanding fixtures from this needs to be thought about.
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Given we are neither going to get promoted or relegated, my only concern is we do not end up with null and void which will wipe out all the 2019/20 appearances and goals from Copps’ career record.
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Given we are neither going to get promoted or relegated, my only concern is we do not end up with null and void which will wipe out all the 2019/20 appearances and goals from Copps’ career record.
Surely the season will only become void from a clubs 'finishing position' point of view? Individual appearances and career stats will remain.
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Given we are neither going to get promoted or relegated, my only concern is we do not end up with null and void which will wipe out all the 2019/20 appearances and goals from Copps’ career record.
Surely the season will only become void from a clubs 'finishing position' point of view? Individual appearances and career stats will remain.
I certainly hope so, but the only precedent was the 1939-40 season being declared null and void, including personal records because of WW2. But only three games had been played and IMHO it would be a nonsense and an insult to void personal records this season after 35/36 games.
I just hope the precedent of individual voided matches (e.g. teams dropping out mid season like Accrington Stanley in 1962-63) is not considered. Or indeed the precedent of abandoned matches - I still find it unfair that Paul Keegan retained his red card for the Charlton abandonment, but lost a rare goal, and Chris Brown lost 2 goals :(
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Looks as though League 1 clubs can’t come to a decision re the rest of this season:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52679614
Scroll through Comments at the bottom of the page, No. 32, we get a mention:
“Understand why teams 3rd to 7th position and Ipswich in 10th are against cancelling, yet find it strange that Doncaster and Wycombe in 8th and 9th positions are not, or if they are why they are not saying anything.”
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If it goes Points Per Game Wycombe would be promoted that’s why they are keeping quiet.
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It doesn't surprise me at all to see which clubs want the season playing out. Its very much a selfish point of view.
Whilst ever the clock is ticking the situation gets financially worse, and the contractual situation is just going to make matters worse. For clarity they should close off the season now, let clubs reorganise their finances and sort out the contracts.
Let them prepare for a restart to next season, and fingers crossed that all clubs will survive.
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Those six clubs are this league's big spending clubs, all the ones who would miss out if they end the season now and only send the top two up (or straight PPG since Wycombe would join Coventry and Rotherham). So that is transparently why it is these six teams, acting selfishly to try and protect their own financial position.
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SM, if the EFL committee had any leadership qualities your proffered outcome would have been instigated a couple of weeks ago, and things would have now been looking forward instead of uncertainty.
I said on this forum weeks ago that the tail wags the dog, The heads of the EFL need to make the call whatever they decide, over rule the six clubs if it is necessary, and make a decision for the good of all the clubs they oversee and gain back control. The National league management make them look inept.
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If the EFL make the decision they are wide open for court cases, letting the Clubs vote and make the decision removes that threat
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SM, if the EFL committee had any leadership qualities your proffered outcome would have been instigated a couple of weeks ago, and things would have now been looking forward instead of uncertainty.
I said on this forum weeks ago that the tail wags the dog, The heads of the EFL need to make the call whatever they decide, over rule the six clubs if it is necessary, and make a decision for the good of all the clubs they oversee and gain back control. The National league management make them look inept.
It doesn't work like that though. The clubs are the EFL! They can't start laying the law down like you expect them to.
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It seems that EFL LG2 has decided that they will terminate their season now, as each division has the freedom to decide it's own fate.
How they do that is still to be decided.
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League 2 clubs voted to end season, on a weighted points-per-game. Also proposed that Stevenage are not relegated:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52679614
That means that League 2 will now be one club short. Should we now look forward to welcoming back Barrow AFC after 48 years in the wilderness? I certainly hope so!
:welcome:
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EFL Clubs Meeting this coming Friday with a decision expected shortly afterwards.
Yep, as I mentioned above. Meeting with Government on Thursday, clubs on Friday, but I think you may be disappointed about a decision shortly afterwards if my updated info is correct.
Is the meeting just to discuss this current seasons ending or will it be to discuss future changes too?
DO, my understanding is that salary cap proposals are to be relayed to the clubs in the next few days.
It probably won't make the meeting on Monday but at least there are some proposals out there and its possible they can be in place for the start of next season.
Yet again it adds to the pressure to call an end to this season and give clubs the chance to prepare.
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Apparently L2 are doing weighted PPG with play-offs.
If this is what happens in L1, I think we'll have had a shitty deal.
We are 6 points off 6th place as it stands on weighted PPG. That is in great part because our away record isn't great and we had 7 away games left.
But.
If the Bolton f**k up hadn't happened, we'd have immediately had three more points AND a better away PPG. That alone more than halves the gap.
Then look at the away matches we had left. Only 2 against sides in the top 11.
4 against sides in the bottom 12 (ignoring the Bolton game).
It is scarcely fair to weight our likely points tally in matches to come against MK Dons, Accrington, Burton and Blackpool by earlier season results against Oxford, Coventry, Wycombe and Fleetwood.
Bit of an annoying outcome if L1 does go that way.
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We’ve not been good enough this season. Lots of reasons and some excuses, but we are not yet consistently good enough. Next season hope we can take the next step, but for this season we don’t really deserve to go up, let’s be honest.
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So how would it pan out under that system, whatever I agree we have not been good enough although who is to say we would not have been that team that made it in a late run.
Whoever goes up I wish them well, they may need it entering the division of insanity which has far more problems than division1.
As I have said before I would void the season right through the divisions, which is just a personal view, but can accept what the majority vote for, but want a body that can take control of the situation and show some leadership and the determination for rules to be applied in future.
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I thought the decision would have to be unanimous across cross all 3 EFL leagues? I note the Stevenage proposal. It surely if they expect and outcome rather than voiding the season, if you take the promotions then surely you have to accept the relegations too?
For me it's either play the games out or void the season. That means it's the same for all clubs. Nobody gains and nobody loses. Well, certainly damage limitation anyway. All clubs have lost their match day income with no hope of recouping that money. Those in and around the promotion and play off positions have a chance to recoup some of that money if they are successful. It does sound like the clubs who insist on a conclusion will indirectly cause some clubs to face the threat to their existance rather than just suffer relegation.
It's a mess but no club could have forseen it.
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According to Matt Slater, the EFL board are recommending an un weighted points per game resolution but needs a 50+1 majority and a majority in the Championship.
Apparently they have changed their minds on this if true.
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I thought the decision would have to be unanimous across cross all 3 EFL leagues? I note the Stevenage proposal. It surely if they expect and outcome rather than voiding the season, if you take the promotions then surely you have to accept the relegations too?
For me it's either play the games out or void the season. That means it's the same for all clubs. Nobody gains and nobody loses. Well, certainly damage limitation anyway. All clubs have lost their match day income with no hope of recouping that money. Those in and around the promotion and play off positions have a chance to recoup some of that money if they are successful. It does sound like the clubs who insist on a conclusion will indirectly cause some clubs to face the threat to their existance rather than just suffer relegation.
It's a mess but no club could have forseen it.
No Baz, if they did that they'd never reach any decision! They have allowed all 3 divisions the opportunity to decide their own fate.
It's a fair bet that the Championship will follow the EPL. League 2 have wrapped up so I'm going to hazard a guess and say that LG1 will be the same.
However, anything they decide still has to get past the SAG and the Safety Officers, so I'm not expecting an easy pass.
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They surely shouldn't be allowing the divisions to just do as they please? It messes with the sporting integrity of things. If League One is decided by a different method to League Two, it raises all sorts of questions. And then you have the issue over promotion/relegation. If League One votes for no relegation and all, how can League Two then have four teams come up? There's no way we're having a 27 team league next season.
It's looking like a right mess. The PL/Championship, League One, League Two and National Leagues potentially all doing completely different things to sort the season out. And then lower non-league voided which is another different solution. Madness.
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They surely shouldn't be allowing the divisions to just do as they please? It messes with the sporting integrity of things. If League One is decided by a different method to League Two, it raises all sorts of questions. And then you have the issue over promotion/relegation. If League One votes for no relegation and all, how can League Two then have four teams come up? There's no way we're having a 27 team league next season.
It's looking like a right mess. The PL/Championship, League One, League Two and National Leagues potentially all doing completely different things to sort the season out. And then lower non-league voided which is another different solution. Madness.
RA, I've edited my comment above, sorry.
However, I think you're over complicating it. We've known for quite a while that the EPL will restart. And as an entity unto themselves they can do as they wish.
The EFL is more complicated. For LG1 and 2 teams the finances will be key. LG2 was easy, no big monied clubs to sway a vote against the consensus, but LG1 does have a few. However it only takes a simple majority to carry through a decision and I would suggest that the majority would want an end to the season. If you have nothing at stake why would you go to all the trouble and extra expense? Promotion and relegation will take place, its just how that's achieved that will take some discussion.
And to add to that, here's the comments of the Exeter City Chairman (fan owned club) who confirms my point;
At a meeting on Friday, it was unanimously indicated by the 24 teams in Sky Bet League Two that they would support proposals for the season to be cut short as long as long as promotion from the division took place, along with the play-offs.
Nothing has been finalised yet and the outcome will be determined on all three divisions – Championship, League One and League Two – agreeing on relegation and promotion issues as well as ratification coming from the EFL and FA boards.
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We’ve not been good enough this season. Lots of reasons and some excuses, but we are not yet consistently good enough. Next season hope we can take the next step, but for this season we don’t really deserve to go up, let’s be honest.
I tend to agree.
Except...
That Bolton match gets played at the start of the season and we currently sit two points off the play-offs with 9 matches to go.
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They surely shouldn't be allowing the divisions to just do as they please? It messes with the sporting integrity of things. If League One is decided by a different method to League Two, it raises all sorts of questions. And then you have the issue over promotion/relegation. If League One votes for no relegation and all, how can League Two then have four teams come up? There's no way we're having a 27 team league next season.
It's looking like a right mess. The PL/Championship, League One, League Two and National Leagues potentially all doing completely different things to sort the season out. And then lower non-league voided which is another different solution. Madness.
RA, I've edited my comment above, sorry.
However, I think you're over complicating it. We've known for quite a while that the EPL will restart. And as an entity unto themselves they can do as they wish.
The EFL is more complicated. For LG1 and 2 teams the finances will be key. LG2 was easy, no big monied clubs to sway a vote against the consensus, but LG1 does have a few. However it only takes a simple majority to carry through a decision and I would suggest that the majority would want an end to the season. If you have nothing at stake why would you go to all the trouble and extra expense? Promotion and relegation will take place, its just how that's achieved that will take some discussion.
And to add to that, here's the comments of the Exeter City Chairman (fan owned club) who confirms my point;
At a meeting on Friday, it was unanimously indicated by the 24 teams in Sky Bet League Two that they would support proposals for the season to be cut short as long as long as promotion from the division took place, along with the play-offs.
Nothing has been finalised yet and the outcome will be determined on all three divisions – Championship, League One and League Two – agreeing on relegation and promotion issues as well as ratification coming from the EFL and FA boards.
SM, I haven’t read the all of this thread so my question may have been answered.
I mentioned yesterday, if six clubs want to play and sixteen don’t, what happens.
You have just said that it only takes a simple majority to come to a decision so I guess that in itself answers my question.
It would seem then that if a vote is taken next week to finish the season straight away and use the ppg system to determine final league standings then the six club cartel are overruled.
Just out of interest, why couldn’t the clubs have voted today.
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Personally I am struggling to see how the EFL can allow League 2 to reach a decision to call it a day with 2 Up and no relegation and yet two clubs, Portsmouth & Peterborough hold League One clubs up from making a similar decision and have to meet again on Monday.
The proposal is that Coventry & Rotherham are promoted then the third place promotion spot to be decided by play offs but because the method of deciding on who makes the play offs spots looks like excluding Peterborough on PPG and because Portsmouth want the opportunity to compete for the automatic promotion spots nothing has been agreed.
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Personally I am struggling to see how the EFL can allow League 2 to reach a decision to call it a day with 2 Up and no relegation and yet two clubs, Portsmouth & Peterborough hold League One clubs up from making a similar decision and have to meet again on Monday.
The proposal is that Coventry & Rotherham are promoted then the third place promotion spot to be decided by play offs but because the method of deciding on who makes the play offs spots looks like excluding Peterborough on PPG and because Portsmouth want the opportunity to compete for the automatic promotion spots nothing has been agreed.
Again, why couldn’t the clubs just vote on this.
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Well, wouldn't it be a travesty of luck that Peterborough miss out. Bad luck seems to follow Darren about!
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Personally I am struggling to see how the EFL can allow League 2 to reach a decision to call it a day with 2 Up and no relegation and yet two clubs, Portsmouth & Peterborough hold League One clubs up from making a similar decision and have to meet again on Monday.
The proposal is that Coventry & Rotherham are promoted then the third place promotion spot to be decided by play offs but because the method of deciding on who makes the play offs spots looks like excluding Peterborough on PPG and because Portsmouth want the opportunity to compete for the automatic promotion spots nothing has been agreed.
How do Peterborough miss out on a H/A weighted PPG?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.coventrytelegraph.net/sport/football/football-news/ppg-coventry-city-promotion-news-18220773.amp
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The EFL want unweighted PPG which (I haven't looked like) may mean Peterborough getting into the Play Offs.
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They surely shouldn't be allowing the divisions to just do as they please? It messes with the sporting integrity of things. If League One is decided by a different method to League Two, it raises all sorts of questions. And then you have the issue over promotion/relegation. If League One votes for no relegation and all, how can League Two then have four teams come up? There's no way we're having a 27 team league next season.
It's looking like a right mess. The PL/Championship, League One, League Two and National Leagues potentially all doing completely different things to sort the season out. And then lower non-league voided which is another different solution. Madness.
RA, I've edited my comment above, sorry.
However, I think you're over complicating it. We've known for quite a while that the EPL will restart. And as an entity unto themselves they can do as they wish.
The EFL is more complicated. For LG1 and 2 teams the finances will be key. LG2 was easy, no big monied clubs to sway a vote against the consensus, but LG1 does have a few. However it only takes a simple majority to carry through a decision and I would suggest that the majority would want an end to the season. If you have nothing at stake why would you go to all the trouble and extra expense? Promotion and relegation will take place, its just how that's achieved that will take some discussion.
And to add to that, here's the comments of the Exeter City Chairman (fan owned club) who confirms my point;
At a meeting on Friday, it was unanimously indicated by the 24 teams in Sky Bet League Two that they would support proposals for the season to be cut short as long as long as promotion from the division took place, along with the play-offs.
Nothing has been finalised yet and the outcome will be determined on all three divisions – Championship, League One and League Two – agreeing on relegation and promotion issues as well as ratification coming from the EFL and FA boards.
SM, I haven’t read the all of this thread so my question may have been answered.
I mentioned yesterday, if six clubs want to play and sixteen don’t, what happens.
You have just said that it only takes a simple majority to come to a decision so I guess that in itself answers my question.
It would seem then that if a vote is taken next week to finish the season straight away and use the ppg system to determine final league standings then the six club cartel are overruled.
Just out of interest, why couldn’t the clubs have voted today.
Well, firstly if they do go to a vote then a simple majority suffices. But it didn't get to that point in the LG1 meeting. In discussions there was no consensus, unlike LG2 which did. The EFL board will not force the clubs into submission, there is no mandate for that. So, they need to agree on how to proceed, they couldn't do that today but extra proposals will be forthcoming before the next meeting.
Secondly they have to agree to terminate the season, once that is done they then have to agree on how that happens. But that will happen once all decisions are in so some kind of harmony across all the divisions exists.
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If 6 clubs insist on playing on to a conclusion, and incurring the extra costs that brings, then would it be fair that those 6 foot the bill for the league?
Intruiging that LG2 are going with weighted PPG, yet LG1 appear to be going to unweighted PPG?
Seems maybe one or two clubs will leave no stone unturned to gain an advantage. Where is the sporting integrity?? Sounds like big mouth McAnthony is leading the way purely out of self interest, maybe understandable but surely he can't have it all his own way!?
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⬆️⬆️⬆️⬆️ Totally agree with DonnyBazRover, one the teams that’s whinging is Ipswich who are 2pts behind us and played 2 more matches
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The government or a higher authority needs to step in and insist that the game gets a governing body with some clout before they allow the clubs a trading licence.
The system in place is a nonsense and will never work for the good of the game, and at the moment looks to favour those who make the most noise.
From the first few weeks of the season and the Bolton and Bury situation it is obvious that clubs and individuals can run rings around the system which has allowed persons of dubious past reputations and nobodies to infiltrate the game for their own gain skimming off the top.
The way that the National League, and leagues in non league administer the game at their level put this lot to shame.
It is obvious the EFL will NOT solve their own problems to sustain the game for supporters in this country to the standard needed without getting a proper governing body, ditching the spivs and fly by nights and having a open and cohesive plan for the future.
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Selfishly, we have no real skin in this game other than voting for whatever disadvantages Peterborough the most. Probably best for us to wrap up now - and presuming next season starts in August with some degree of certainty - start planning for that as soon as possible, not least sorting out squad.
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The government or a higher authority needs to step in and insist that the game gets a governing body with some clout before they allow the clubs a trading licence.
The system in place is a nonsense and will never work for the good of the game, and at the moment looks to favour those who make the most noise.
From the first few weeks of the season and the Bolton and Bury situation it is obvious that clubs and individuals can run rings around the system which has allowed persons of dubious past reputations and nobodies to infiltrate the game for their own gain skimming off the top.
The way that the National League, and leagues in non league administer the game at their level put this lot to shame.
It is obvious the EFL will NOT solve their own problems to sustain the game for supporters in this country to the standard needed without getting a proper governing body, ditching the spivs and fly by nights and having a open and cohesive plan for the future.
The reason non league is run well Selby, is simply because it’s about football not money. It’s totally about self interest above that and you can see that clearly under the CV crisis. Even contemplating playing football whilst people are dying and key workers still can’t get tests or PPE is an utter disgrace. The fact that it’s being supported by government with totally different rules to the rest of us is atrocious. My daughters a nurse in Rotherham Gen and I can’t hug either her or my granddaughter due to self distancing yet 22 footballers can play contact sport. It’s a total disgrace and football shouldn’t happen until it’s safe for all of us.
On a football front, cobbling together some silly ppg system will never be fair and why should clubs like Rovers who have every chance of making the play offs be denied the chance when we all know at this stage of the season results are completely unpredictable. If games can’t be played properly it can’t uphold its integrity and should just be voided until it’s properly safe to play again.
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This is a sodding mess and it serves to highlight that the efl, as a few of us have suspected for some time, are, quite simply, inadequate. In these traumatic and unprecedented times, as has already been said many times, you need strong leadership and the football world continues to prove that they have anything but that very thing.
Personally, I tend to favour finishing the season now, by whatever means, and let’s get on with building for next season, from whatever remnants of the squad we have left. At the same time, I can see where BST is coming from, wrt our current position, when considering the Bolton fiasco, and it does seem to be particularly harsh on us. However, what matters more to me, is that we come out of this whole thing in as positive a state as we possibly can and build on what was a pretty positive season. The manager, his staff and all the players deserve credit for that and, further deserve backing to go one better next season.
Hope everyone is keeping safe and well.
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-would-make-play-offs-if-peterborough-united-chairmans-suggestion-how-end-season-adopted-2855534
We could be in the play offs.
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Hi Alan, good to see you on here, hope you are well.? Same goes for everyone..
I don’t necessarily agree - I favour voiding the season if we can’t play it out properly - but ultimately us as fans don’t have a say on the resolution.
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-would-make-play-offs-if-peterborough-united-chairmans-suggestion-how-end-season-adopted-2855534
We could be in the play offs.
McAnthony is just trying to gather support for his play off hopes by suggesting that 8 to 10 teams should be involved.
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They surely shouldn't be allowing the divisions to just do as they please? It messes with the sporting integrity of things. If League One is decided by a different method to League Two, it raises all sorts of questions. And then you have the issue over promotion/relegation. If League One votes for no relegation and all, how can League Two then have four teams come up? There's no way we're having a 27 team league next season.
It's looking like a right mess. The PL/Championship, League One, League Two and National Leagues potentially all doing completely different things to sort the season out. And then lower non-league voided which is another different solution. Madness.
RA, I've edited my comment above, sorry.
However, I think you're over complicating it. We've known for quite a while that the EPL will restart. And as an entity unto themselves they can do as they wish.
The EFL is more complicated. For LG1 and 2 teams the finances will be key. LG2 was easy, no big monied clubs to sway a vote against the consensus, but LG1 does have a few. However it only takes a simple majority to carry through a decision and I would suggest that the majority would want an end to the season. If you have nothing at stake why would you go to all the trouble and extra expense? Promotion and relegation will take place, its just how that's achieved that will take some discussion.
And to add to that, here's the comments of the Exeter City Chairman (fan owned club) who confirms my point;
At a meeting on Friday, it was unanimously indicated by the 24 teams in Sky Bet League Two that they would support proposals for the season to be cut short as long as long as promotion from the division took place, along with the play-offs.
Nothing has been finalised yet and the outcome will be determined on all three divisions – Championship, League One and League Two – agreeing on relegation and promotion issues as well as ratification coming from the EFL and FA boards.
SM, I haven’t read the all of this thread so my question may have been answered.
I mentioned yesterday, if six clubs want to play and sixteen don’t, what happens.
You have just said that it only takes a simple majority to come to a decision so I guess that in itself answers my question.
It would seem then that if a vote is taken next week to finish the season straight away and use the ppg system to determine final league standings then the six club cartel are overruled.
Just out of interest, why couldn’t the clubs have voted today.
Well, firstly if they do go to a vote then a simple majority suffices. But it didn't get to that point in the LG1 meeting. In discussions there was no consensus, unlike LG2 which did. The EFL board will not force the clubs into submission, there is no mandate for that. So, they need to agree on how to proceed, they couldn't do that today but extra proposals will be forthcoming before the next meeting.
Secondly they have to agree to terminate the season, once that is done they then have to agree on how that happens. But that will happen once all decisions are in so some kind of harmony across all the divisions exists.
SM, when you say “they need to agree “ and “they have to agree”, who is they.
Is it the EFL or the clubs?
I’m not sure from the way you have written your post.
If it is the clubs that have to agree then there is the potential that things could drag on indefinitely.
If it is the EFL then I would have thought that as the governing body they should suggest that a vote is to be taken.
Also, irrespective of the possible play offs that have been suggested, where does any of that leave Tranmere or the clubs just above them?
Does the current bottom three stay the same or is there an argument brewing there.
I find it hard to believe that all of the L2 clubs were in favour of ending the season with a ppg solution when surely at least one or two clubs fancied their chances of getting into the promoted teams group.
Yet they decided to call an end to the season.
I said a few days ago that the Peterborough instigated thing would mean that the EFL wouldn’t be able to get an early decision and it is beginning to look that way.
I can see this dragging on for quite a while yet.
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-would-make-play-offs-if-peterborough-united-chairmans-suggestion-how-end-season-adopted-2855534
We could be in the play offs.
McAnthony is just trying to gather support for his play off hopes by suggesting that 8 to 10 teams should be involved.
It makes sense though. In a normal season we'd still have 9/10 games left. Should the promotion places be decided by the fact in the second half the season Oxford and Rotherham have potential played weaker opposition so far than the others?
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-would-make-play-offs-if-peterborough-united-chairmans-suggestion-how-end-season-adopted-2855534
We could be in the play offs.
McAnthony is just trying to gather support for his play off hopes by suggesting that 8 to 10 teams should be involved.
In that scenario he has my support 😀
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They surely shouldn't be allowing the divisions to just do as they please? It messes with the sporting integrity of things. If League One is decided by a different method to League Two, it raises all sorts of questions. And then you have the issue over promotion/relegation. If League One votes for no relegation and all, how can League Two then have four teams come up? There's no way we're having a 27 team league next season.
It's looking like a right mess. The PL/Championship, League One, League Two and National Leagues potentially all doing completely different things to sort the season out. And then lower non-league voided which is another different solution. Madness.
RA, I've edited my comment above, sorry.
However, I think you're over complicating it. We've known for quite a while that the EPL will restart. And as an entity unto themselves they can do as they wish.
The EFL is more complicated. For LG1 and 2 teams the finances will be key. LG2 was easy, no big monied clubs to sway a vote against the consensus, but LG1 does have a few. However it only takes a simple majority to carry through a decision and I would suggest that the majority would want an end to the season. If you have nothing at stake why would you go to all the trouble and extra expense? Promotion and relegation will take place, its just how that's achieved that will take some discussion.
And to add to that, here's the comments of the Exeter City Chairman (fan owned club) who confirms my point;
At a meeting on Friday, it was unanimously indicated by the 24 teams in Sky Bet League Two that they would support proposals for the season to be cut short as long as long as promotion from the division took place, along with the play-offs.
Nothing has been finalised yet and the outcome will be determined on all three divisions – Championship, League One and League Two – agreeing on relegation and promotion issues as well as ratification coming from the EFL and FA boards.
SM, I haven’t read the all of this thread so my question may have been answered.
I mentioned yesterday, if six clubs want to play and sixteen don’t, what happens.
You have just said that it only takes a simple majority to come to a decision so I guess that in itself answers my question.
It would seem then that if a vote is taken next week to finish the season straight away and use the ppg system to determine final league standings then the six club cartel are overruled.
Just out of interest, why couldn’t the clubs have voted today.
Well, firstly if they do go to a vote then a simple majority suffices. But it didn't get to that point in the LG1 meeting. In discussions there was no consensus, unlike LG2 which did. The EFL board will not force the clubs into submission, there is no mandate for that. So, they need to agree on how to proceed, they couldn't do that today but extra proposals will be forthcoming before the next meeting.
Secondly they have to agree to terminate the season, once that is done they then have to agree on how that happens. But that will happen once all decisions are in so some kind of harmony across all the divisions exists.
SM, when you say “they need to agree “ and “they have to agree”, who is they.
Is it the EFL or the clubs?
I’m not sure from the way you have written your post.
If it is the clubs that have to agree then there is the potential that things could drag on indefinitely.
If it is the EFL then I would have thought that as the governing body they should suggest that a vote is to be taken.
Also, irrespective of the possible play offs that have been suggested, where does any of that leave Tranmere or the clubs just above them?
Does the current bottom three stay the same or is there an argument brewing there.
I find it hard to believe that all of the L2 clubs were in favour of ending the season with a ppg solution when surely at least one or two clubs fancied their chances of getting into the promoted teams group.
Yet they decided to call an end to the season.
I said a few days ago that the Peterborough instigated thing would mean that the EFL wouldn’t be able to get an early decision and it is beginning to look that way.
I can see this dragging on for quite a while yet.
You're making the same mistake that everybody makes, the EFL are not a governing body, they are a competition organiser.
So, the EFL are the clubs! There is not an us and them. The EFL is the 71 clubs that currently exist and participate in the various competitions, LG2, LG1 and the Championship.
Again, when I say they need to agree I mean the clubs need to agree, the respective officials will then carry out the clubs wishes.
This extract from the EFL statement might make things a bit clearer for you;
League One
There were varied views shared in League One and it was determined that there would be a further period of reflection and consultation to understand what creative solutions could be implemented. It was acknowledged that the need to find innovative and creative solutions was of paramount importance as was the need for decisions to be taken quickly.
In addition, Championship Clubs met earlier this week and have indicated that it is their wish to play on and conclude the season.
The EFL will continue to work with all its members to progress the discussions and arrive at the necessary decisions as appropriate in what remain challenging and complex circumstances.
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SM
Lots of stuff about the clubs and the EFL
But where if anywhere do the players (PFA) get involved?
Will they be consulted?
What if they disagree?
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I can see the temptation in MacAnthony's proposal but I wonder whether it's making a bit of a circus out of how to conclude the season.
So, if I've got this right, the top 2 are promoted whatever, and the next 8 play a 7 game mini league to determine either a) the third place promotion or b) to determine the next 4 who play off again to establish the 3rd promoted team??
1. How would this minii league be set up in terms of home or away? For eg, as we've played Ipswich away, then would we be guaranteed Ipswich at home?
2.Do we start this mini league from scratch or start from the points already accumulated??
3.You could go the other way and have a straight knock out depending on luck of the draw
Based on current league positions equalised on points per game
3rd v 10th
4th v 9th
5th v 8th
6th v 7th.
There's so many possible ways to complicate the situation even more but a straight knockout would limit the number of games left to play which surely has to be desirable given the Covid crisis.
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If you’re going to play that many games, you may as well play out the season.
Yes I know that those proposals only mean a fraction of the fixtures played, but in my opinion you either play them all or none at all.
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Surely just do knock out? That's 7 games in total and just play them at neutral venues. 3 games max per team. You could be done in two weeks.
If there was a way to have a mini tournament to promote two that'd be better imo. I don't think Rotherham are far enough ahead to be given it yet. Only Coventry are.
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I can see the temptation in MacAnthony's proposal but I wonder whether it's making a bit of a circus out of how to conclude the season.
So, if I've got this right, the top 2 are promoted whatever, and the next 8 play a 7 game mini league to determine either a) the third place promotion or b) to determine the next 4 who play off again to establish the 3rd promoted team??
1. How would this minii league be set up in terms of home or away? For eg, as we've played Ipswich away, then would we be guaranteed Ipswich at home?
2.Do we start this mini league from scratch or start from the points already accumulated??
3.You could go the other way and have a straight knock out depending on luck of the draw
Based on current league positions equalised on points per game
3rd v 10th
4th v 9th
5th v 8th
6th v 7th.
There's so many possible ways to complicate the situation even more but a straight knockout would limit the number of games left to play which surely has to be desirable given the Covid crisis.
I really have no idea why people are debating this, MacAnthony's suggested ideas are self fulfilling and are a country mile wide of the current competition rules around the payoffs so I seriously doubt they have got any legs whatsoever.
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But it seems its about whether McAnthony can get enough votes for it. Assuming he can persuade the top 10 and a few 'no objections' then he could carry it I guess??
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SM
Lots of stuff about the clubs and the EFL
But where if anywhere do the players (PFA) get involved?
Will they be consulted?
What if they disagree?
The PFA have been involved all the time, they have been meeting with the EPL, EFL and FA for some time.
They are actually supporting the EPL with regard to Project Restart, so I can't see them objecting to the EFL running a series of games to see them to the end of the season. Obviously precautions will need to be taken, and they'll run their eye over them, but its not their major concern.
Don't forget to play any game needs a safety certificate, therefore the SAG and Safety Officers will have a major say in what happens and when.
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But it seems its about whether McAnthony can get enough votes for it. Assuming he can persuade the top 10 and a few 'no objections' then he could carry it I guess??
I don't believe that for a second, that just what he wants us all to believe DBR.
He needs to get a 75% majority vote to get the season kept alive let alone his ideas which let's be frank, tare ridiculous at best, if the clubs agreed to that they might as well all agree to finish the season and from what I am hearing that's not going to happen.
The Chairman at Rochdale is spot on in my opinion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52690856
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75% or a simple majority..
Which is it.?
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But it seems its about whether McAnthony can get enough votes for it. Assuming he can persuade the top 10 and a few 'no objections' then he could carry it I guess??
I don't believe that for a second, that just what he wants us all to believe DBR.
He needs to get a 75% majority vote to get the season kept alive let alone his ideas which let's be frank, tare ridiculous at best, if the clubs agreed to that they might as well all agree to finish the season and from what I am hearing that's not going to happen.
The Chairman at Rochdale is spot on in my opinion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52690856
Team close to relegation places in wanting season to be called off shocker.
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SM
Lots of stuff about the clubs and the EFL
But where if anywhere do the players (PFA) get involved?
Will they be consulted?
What if they disagree?
The PFA have been involved all the time, they have been meeting with the EPL, EFL and FA for some time.
They are actually supporting the EPL with regard to Project Restart, so I can't see them objecting to the EFL running a series of games to see them to the end of the season. Obviously precautions will need to be taken, and they'll run their eye over them, but its not their major concern.
Don't forget to play any game needs a safety certificate, therefore the SAG and Safety Officers will have a major say in what happens and when.
Thanks that helps
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I can see the temptation in MacAnthony's proposal but I wonder whether it's making a bit of a circus out of how to conclude the season.
So, if I've got this right, the top 2 are promoted whatever, and the next 8 play a 7 game mini league to determine either a) the third place promotion or b) to determine the next 4 who play off again to establish the 3rd promoted team??
1. How would this minii league be set up in terms of home or away? For eg, as we've played Ipswich away, then would we be guaranteed Ipswich at home?
2.Do we start this mini league from scratch or start from the points already accumulated??
3.You could go the other way and have a straight knock out depending on luck of the draw
Based on current league positions equalised on points per game
3rd v 10th
4th v 9th
5th v 8th
6th v 7th.
There's so many possible ways to complicate the situation even more but a straight knockout would limit the number of games left to play which surely has to be desirable given the Covid crisis.
I really have no idea why people are debating this, MacAnthony's suggested ideas are self fulfilling and are a country mile wide of the current competition rules around the payoffs so I seriously doubt they have got any legs whatsoever.
He's getting increasingly desperate as time goes on.
"Continue the season"
"Sporting integrity"
"Extend the Play-Offs"
"Inner City Sumo"
"Monkey Tennis"
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I can see the temptation in MacAnthony's proposal but I wonder whether it's making a bit of a circus out of how to conclude the season.
So, if I've got this right, the top 2 are promoted whatever, and the next 8 play a 7 game mini league to determine either a) the third place promotion or b) to determine the next 4 who play off again to establish the 3rd promoted team??
1. How would this minii league be set up in terms of home or away? For eg, as we've played Ipswich away, then would we be guaranteed Ipswich at home?
2.Do we start this mini league from scratch or start from the points already accumulated??
3.You could go the other way and have a straight knock out depending on luck of the draw
Based on current league positions equalised on points per game
3rd v 10th
4th v 9th
5th v 8th
6th v 7th.
There's so many possible ways to complicate the situation even more but a straight knockout would limit the number of games left to play which surely has to be desirable given the Covid crisis.
I think it would go something like this with single games, not home and away:
Game A - 7th v 10th
Game B - 8th v 9th
Game C - 5th v Winner A
Game D - 6th v Winner B
3rd v Winner D
4th v Winner C
Final
So that can be as little as 4 match days in total, no need for police delays as no crowds. I'd prefer this scenario as the norm anyway though the 10th? team replaced by the top relegated team.
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Hasn’t Darren Moore already voiced an opinion to not play any more games this season.
If that has transmitted to our players then it might be hard to get them motivated enough to play.
Also, as I posted earlier, what about Tranmere.
Are they just relegated or will they be having a play off series with the three clubs above them?
Mark Palios was saying that he thought they had just begun to get a winning run together and might have escaped the drop.
Is that any different to Peterbro?
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No.
The ppg scenarios assume constant form rather than where a team may be at, compared to others, with the quality of the opposition for remaining fixtures.
Nor do they consider form.
Hence the least worst solution other than playing all the games is to void the season.
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75% or a simple majority..
Which is it.?
A simple majority.
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Thanks SM.
So that leads to the question, where’s NewDonny getting his/her 75% majority claim from.?
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Apparently the EFL want to use Unweighted PPG. This means we still finish 9th but pushes Ipswich out of the top ten.
https://twitter.com/mjshrimper/status/1261336578108121088?s=20
I have a feeling the play-offs will probably end up being 3-8. I have no issue with that, btw. I think our long term future might be better served by not playing again this season.
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I can see the temptation in MacAnthony's proposal but I wonder whether it's making a bit of a circus out of how to conclude the season.
So, if I've got this right, the top 2 are promoted whatever, and the next 8 play a 7 game mini league to determine either a) the third place promotion or b) to determine the next 4 who play off again to establish the 3rd promoted team??
1. How would this minii league be set up in terms of home or away? For eg, as we've played Ipswich away, then would we be guaranteed Ipswich at home?
2.Do we start this mini league from scratch or start from the points already accumulated??
3.You could go the other way and have a straight knock out depending on luck of the draw
Based on current league positions equalised on points per game
3rd v 10th
4th v 9th
5th v 8th
6th v 7th.
There's so many possible ways to complicate the situation even more but a straight knockout would limit the number of games left to play which surely has to be desirable given the Covid crisis.
I really have no idea why people are debating this, MacAnthony's suggested ideas are self fulfilling and are a country mile wide of the current competition rules around the payoffs so I seriously doubt they have got any legs whatsoever.
That's a non-argument.
We are in an entirely unprecedented situation. ANY outcome is going to be one that requires competition rules to be re-written.
If you disagree with the proposals, by all means do so, but do it on their merits. Not on the basis of this non-argument.
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Thanks SM.
So that leads to the question, where’s NewDonny getting his/her 75% majority claim from.?
Sorry I am not looking for an argument here, but I am hearing it differently and that it's actually a requirement for them to have at least 75% of the votes to be able to agree on any type of proposal. With Bury gone the league has been reduced to 23 teams and with the six teams in favour of continuing gives them only 73.9% to finish the season now.
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I can see the temptation in MacAnthony's proposal but I wonder whether it's making a bit of a circus out of how to conclude the season.
So, if I've got this right, the top 2 are promoted whatever, and the next 8 play a 7 game mini league to determine either a) the third place promotion or b) to determine the next 4 who play off again to establish the 3rd promoted team??
1. How would this minii league be set up in terms of home or away? For eg, as we've played Ipswich away, then would we be guaranteed Ipswich at home?
2.Do we start this mini league from scratch or start from the points already accumulated??
3.You could go the other way and have a straight knock out depending on luck of the draw
Based on current league positions equalised on points per game
3rd v 10th
4th v 9th
5th v 8th
6th v 7th.
There's so many possible ways to complicate the situation even more but a straight knockout would limit the number of games left to play which surely has to be desirable given the Covid crisis.
Darragh MacAnthony is proposing this for 1 reason... and that reason is himself.
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Thanks SM.
So that leads to the question, where’s NewDonny getting his/her 75% majority claim from.?
Sorry I am not looking for an argument here, but I ham hearing it differently and that it's actually a requirement for them to have at least 75% of the votes to be able to agree on any type of proposal. With Bury gone the league has been reduced to 23 teams and with the six teams in favour of continuing gives them only 73.9% to finish the season now.
I think there's a hard deadline (set by UEFA) of 25th May for Leagues to decide whether they are going to resume or end the season as it stands.
Unless there are more clubs willing to play out the season than are prepared to go public, then what is really at stake is what to do with the play-offs.
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So with this proposed play off system, we could potentially win it and be playing in the Championship next season. Call me a damp squib and lacking ambition but that isn’t a prospect that really fills me with joy at this moment in time. Suppose we could just take the extra money but then contracts go up and you’re in fishy situation when/if you come down. Having said that if we’re not going to be in the stadiums while January who knows what the future holds.
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I can see the temptation in MacAnthony's proposal but I wonder whether it's making a bit of a circus out of how to conclude the season.
So, if I've got this right, the top 2 are promoted whatever, and the next 8 play a 7 game mini league to determine either a) the third place promotion or b) to determine the next 4 who play off again to establish the 3rd promoted team??
1. How would this minii league be set up in terms of home or away? For eg, as we've played Ipswich away, then would we be guaranteed Ipswich at home?
2.Do we start this mini league from scratch or start from the points already accumulated??
3.You could go the other way and have a straight knock out depending on luck of the draw
Based on current league positions equalised on points per game
3rd v 10th
4th v 9th
5th v 8th
6th v 7th.
There's so many possible ways to complicate the situation even more but a straight knockout would limit the number of games left to play which surely has to be desirable given the Covid crisis.
I really have no idea why people are debating this, MacAnthony's suggested ideas are self fulfilling and are a country mile wide of the current competition rules around the payoffs so I seriously doubt they have got any legs whatsoever.
That's a non-argument.
We are in an entirely unprecedented situation. ANY outcome is going to be one that requires competition rules to be re-written.
If you disagree with the proposals, by all means do so, but do it on their merits. Not on the basis of this non-argument.
Look I am not getting into an argument with you on here again BST, if you disagree with my opinion that's fine and I respect that, but please don't then condesend to tell me how I should or shouldn't be laying out my arguments.
I am well aware of the circumstances that have brought us to this junction in this season leagues's proceedings, just as I am well aware, probably more so than most on here, that whatever decision is reached, not all 23 clubs in the league will be happy with the final outcome. But wholesale changes to the existing rules and structure just to appease what amounts to a small number of clubs isn't right either.
Whether fair or unfair, right or wrong, the most sensible solution is to draw a halt to the season now. With 80% of this seasons fixtures already completed, there is enough home and away form there for a PPG formula to be used to agree the final league places, promotions and relegations. Teams can then re-group, save money, restructure their finances and start planning for next season.
I know some on here don't agree with my simple approach but equally, restarting the league now, having had nearly a two month break will also not be fair based on the fact that there is no guarantee that form sides will pick up where they left off. In fact I confidently predict that any sort of 8-10 team play off will throw up some very different results than had the season continued normally. The players themselves will need at least 6 weeks to get back to fitness and then it won't be match fitness.
The other concern for me is that agreeing to McAnthonys self fulfilling proposals will have a significant impact on next season in terms of start date, player recruitment & contracts and above all a clubs finances & Sponsorship. For me it's better that this season is finished at Mondays second meeting for players and clubs to take a break from it all and then come back when its safe to do so and hopefully the game will start also to attract sponsorship which in itself is going to be very hard now anyway.
This is my opinion!
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I can see the temptation in MacAnthony's proposal but I wonder whether it's making a bit of a circus out of how to conclude the season.
So, if I've got this right, the top 2 are promoted whatever, and the next 8 play a 7 game mini league to determine either a) the third place promotion or b) to determine the next 4 who play off again to establish the 3rd promoted team??
1. How would this minii league be set up in terms of home or away? For eg, as we've played Ipswich away, then would we be guaranteed Ipswich at home?
2.Do we start this mini league from scratch or start from the points already accumulated??
3.You could go the other way and have a straight knock out depending on luck of the draw
Based on current league positions equalised on points per game
3rd v 10th
4th v 9th
5th v 8th
6th v 7th.
There's so many possible ways to complicate the situation even more but a straight knockout would limit the number of games left to play which surely has to be desirable given the Covid crisis.
I really have no idea why people are debating this, MacAnthony's suggested ideas are self fulfilling and are a country mile wide of the current competition rules around the payoffs so I seriously doubt they have got any legs whatsoever.
That's a non-argument.
We are in an entirely unprecedented situation. ANY outcome is going to be one that requires competition rules to be re-written.
If you disagree with the proposals, by all means do so, but do it on their merits. Not on the basis of this non-argument.
Look I am not getting into an argument with you on here again BST, if you disagree with my opinion that's fine and I respect that, but please don't then condesend to tell me how I should or shouldn't be laying out my arguments.
I am well aware of the circumstances that have brought us to this junction in this season leagues's proceedings, just as I am well aware, probably more so than most on here, that whatever decision is reached, not all 23 clubs in the league will be happy with the final outcome. But wholesale changes to the existing rules and structure just to appease what amounts to a small number of clubs isn't right either.
Whether fair or unfair, right or wrong, the most sensible solution is to draw a halt to the season now. With 80% of this seasons fixtures already completed, there is enough home and away form there for a PPG formula to be used to agree the final league places, promotions and relegations. Teams can then re-group, save money, restructure their finances and start planning for next season.
I know some on here don't agree with my simple approach but equally, restarting the league now, having had nearly a two month break will also not be fair based on the fact that there is no guarantee that form sides will pick up where they left off. In fact I confidently predict that any sort of 8-10 team play off will throw up some very different results than had the season continued normally. The players them selves will need at least 6 weeks to get back to fitness and ten it won't be match fitness.
The other concern for me is that agreeing to McAnthonys self fulfilling proposals will also have a significant impact on next season in terms of start date, player recruitment & contracts and above all a clubs finances & Sponsorship. For me it's better that this season is finished at Mondays meeting for players and clubs to take a break from it all and then come back when its safe to do so and hopefully the gamete start also to attract sponsorship which in itself is going to be very hard now anyway.
This is my opinion!
Why is that then, and how do you come to that opinion?
Thats the words in bold by the way
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People saying D Mc in it for himself with his suggestions, just sit back take a breath and consider if JR was still in charge and we were in Posh position what would he be saying?
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I think it should be PPG , but and it’s a very big but if they do have a play off system put in who do want to go up ?
Oxford or Wycombe (depending on PPG ) ?
Fleetwood - d**khead manager ?
Peterborough - d**khead chairman ?
Sunderland - d**kheads living in the past ?
Ipswich - as above ?
Pompey - d**khead with a bell ?
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Thanks SM.
So that leads to the question, where’s NewDonny getting his/her 75% majority claim from.?
Sorry I am not looking for an argument here, but I ham hearing it differently and that it's actually a requirement for them to have at least 75% of the votes to be able to agree on any type of proposal. With Bury gone the league has been reduced to 23 teams and with the six teams in favour of continuing gives them only 73.9% to finish the season now.
I’m not looking for an argument either, it is a simple question:
Where do you get the 75% majority thing from.?
How you interpret that question as looking for an argument is beyond me.
However it is well known that SM has an involvement with the football authorities and therefore his saying that a simple majority is required should be the default setting - unless of course you can justify why you say 75% majority..
It’s a simple request, not an argument. But if you can’t answer then your opinion is tarnished, to say the least.
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I think it should be PPG , but and it’s a very big but if they do have a play off system put in who do want to go up ?
Oxford or Wycombe (depending on PPG ) ?
Fleetwood - d**khead manager ?
Peterborough - d**khead chairman ?
Sunderland - d**kheads living in the past ?
Ipswich - as above ?
Pompey - d**khead with a bell ?
Oxford.
They were the best of that bunch and they would be out of the way for next season.
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If ppg is used to concoct a season finish, there’s no point in having play offs - just promote the 3rd “best” team.
If there’s an argument that some football should be played, and is safe to do so, then all football should be played.
If ppg is used, which I think flies in the face of sporting integrity in this game, then it’s good enough for the play offs too.
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The 50% +1 I posted was taken off the EFL statement on the BBC website when the question of votes was asked earlier in the thread and on the radio New Donny.
I have never heard 75% mentioned on any discussion of this matter, just a simple majority as SM says.
If the league can be decided by a playoff system and TV coverage can be sold to be split equally between all members of the division and whether it includes ourselves or not I am all for it but would prefer all the games completed, but the cost of that scenario has been ruled out because of the cost to clubs, and would not attract TV coverage whereas a play off system probably would.
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Interesting line from the UEFA president:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52698017 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52698017)
“ Cerefin said leagues which do not complete the season "will still have to play qualifiers if they want to participate in Uefa competition" next season.
He added: "Only sporting reasons can be the formula for qualifying for the Champions League and Europa League."...”
If sporting reasons are good enough for UEFA, then why not for league one.!
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Thanks SM.
So that leads to the question, where’s NewDonny getting his/her 75% majority claim from.?
Sorry I am not looking for an argument here, but I ham hearing it differently and that it's actually a requirement for them to have at least 75% of the votes to be able to agree on any type of proposal. With Bury gone the league has been reduced to 23 teams and with the six teams in favour of continuing gives them only 73.9% to finish the season now.
No, it's a simple majority. Horses mouth.
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Interesting line from the UEFA president:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52698017 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52698017)
“ Cerefin said leagues which do not complete the season "will still have to play qualifiers if they want to participate in Uefa competition" next season.
He added: "Only sporting reasons can be the formula for qualifying for the Champions League and Europa League."...”
If sporting reasons are good enough for UEFA, then why not for league one.!
It's sporting integrity as I've mentioned on here before. It's one of the main driving forces for finishing the season. To qualify for next seasons Champions league you must compete, clubs cannot be nominated by their association..
Doesn't apply to LG1 obviously.
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Thanks SM.
So that leads to the question, where’s NewDonny getting his/her 75% majority claim from.?
Sorry I am not looking for an argument here, but I ham hearing it differently and that it's actually a requirement for them to have at least 75% of the votes to be able to agree on any type of proposal. With Bury gone the league has been reduced to 23 teams and with the six teams in favour of continuing gives them only 73.9% to finish the season now.
I think there's a hard deadline (set by UEFA) of 25th May for Leagues to decide whether they are going to resume or end the season as it stands.
Unless there are more clubs willing to play out the season than are prepared to go public, then what is really at stake is what to do with the play-offs.
Yes that s right John, 25th May for associations to define their plans for completion.
3rd August for CL teams to be decided.
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Looking at the current play off teams, given size of Portsmouth and potentially some extra Marquis cash if they go up, we should be backing whatever they want to happen. Getting rid of them should mean a weaker League One next season, given their resources.
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In terms of that "integrity" thing for the Champions League, does PPG not count in that sense? Club Brugge and PSG have been formally declared champions in Belgium and France, and I've seen nothing suggesting they won't be granted the respective Champions League places as a result.
Reality is, "sporting integrity" isn't the only consideration to finishing the season at our level. Clubs' capability to survive past this crisis is much more in question than it is for those at the top level and so if forcing teams to play the games out jeopardises them as an existing entity, then it surely isn't worth it.
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Don't discount us being good enough to get up if we are included, ,at our best we are as good as any of them, it would be a new competition where every team starts from scratch not like the normal play offs, a team that was the best two months ago could be nowhere as good on a restart.
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Somebody on this forum pointed out the truth about sporting integrity in football a couple of weeks ago " they wouldn't know the meaning of it if it jumped up and smacked them in the face"
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In terms of that "integrity" thing for the Champions League, does PPG not count in that sense? Club Brugge and PSG have been formally declared champions in Belgium and France, and I've seen nothing suggesting they won't be granted the respective Champions League places as a result.
Reality is, "sporting integrity" isn't the only consideration to finishing the season at our level. Clubs' capability to survive past this crisis is much more in question than it is for those at the top level and so if forcing teams to play the games out jeopardises them as an existing entity, then it surely isn't worth it.
Yes it does count. All associations need a resolution to their season based on sporting integrity, if that needs a formula then so be it.
What it rules out is seasons being classed as null and void. If that was to happen then they wouldn't be allocated places for the CL.
At our level, as you point out, its more to do with survival than finishing the season. Partaking in a play off will not be cheap, and might yet not be possible. The amount of testing required would rule this out on cost grounds. The EPL is different as the broadcasters got behind Operation Restart, we don't have that luxury.
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Thanks SM.
So that leads to the question, where’s NewDonny getting his/her 75% majority claim from.?
Sorry I am not looking for an argument here, but I ham hearing it differently and that it's actually a requirement for them to have at least 75% of the votes to be able to agree on any type of proposal. With Bury gone the league has been reduced to 23 teams and with the six teams in favour of continuing gives them only 73.9% to finish the season now.
I’m not looking for an argument either, it is a simple question:
Where do you get the 75% majority thing from.?
How you interpret that question as looking for an argument is beyond me.
However it is well known that SM has an involvement with the football authorities and therefore his saying that a simple majority is required should be the default setting - unless of course you can justify why you say 75% majority..
It’s a simple request, not an argument. But if you can’t answer then your opinion is tarnished, to say the least.
Tarnished? Thank you for that!
Look IDM, you have been on my back for a few days now. I am not doubting SM's involvement with the football authorities, but why is it impossible for you to believe that I too may have connections in the game too? Beyond that I am not prepared to say anymore.
The majority of clubs across Leagues 1 & 2 cannot now afford for the season to be finished off, they just don't have the money to be able to do that. They have little or no income streams and without fans attending home games the cost of holding games, travelling to away games, staying overnight where needed plus having pay staff, which includes losing furlough as an option to pay people, that option is beyond the majority of them now.
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Thanks SM.
So that leads to the question, where’s NewDonny getting his/her 75% majority claim from.?
Sorry I am not looking for an argument here, but I ham hearing it differently and that it's actually a requirement for them to have at least 75% of the votes to be able to agree on any type of proposal. With Bury gone the league has been reduced to 23 teams and with the six teams in favour of continuing gives them only 73.9% to finish the season now.
No, it's a simple majority. Horses mouth.
Then we are clearly talking to two different horses then SM.
Rick Parry's interview attached from 6th May 2020 with two National Newspapers.
EFL chairman Rick Parry
Although the EFL have continued to outline their wish to finish the 2019/20 campaign, reports claim that the issue of ending the season below the Championship will be discussed next week.
It’s believed a vote will then be held over conference call with all clubs in League One and League Two taking part
The vote would not involve clubs in the Championship, as the EFL expects to conclude the season in full.
The vote would need a 75 per cent majority to pass through and decisions would then have to be made on how to conclude promotions and relegations across the leagues.
Speaking to the Digital, Culture, Media and Sport select committee on Tuesday, EFL chairman Rick Parry warned that decisions will have to be made sooner rather than later.
“Our end date, realistically, is July 31 because of the situation with player contracts,” he said.
“Players have been furloughed, staff have been furloughed. To ask clubs to bring their staff back into training now only to find in a month they cannot play would be a complete mess.
“We need within days to be taking decisions. We need guidance on the criteria to return to play and we need that very quickly. We can’t delay decisions. Players have to be back in training pretty soon. Critical days are coming up for us."
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Then you need to be open about which horse you are backing, even if you can’t name names, that’s not what I am asking.
I’m not on your back, I’m interested to know a bit more about where you are coming from, that’s all, so that I can a) understand it better and b) draw my own conclusions.
I don’t doubt you may have some kind of contact within the game, but it would help us to understand you more if you were to be a bit more open.
Take SM for example, we know his name, we know he has a role on the FSF (or whatever it is called) and gets involved with what’s going on at DRFC. All that is known, so when SM says he has knowledge of something but can’t get to public, that tends to be believed.
But when others claim to be in the know yet offer no evidence of such, then yes, your argument is tarnished.
No one is asking you to name names or to betray confidences, but you could perhaps be a bit more explicit, please.?
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I see you amended your post whilst I was writing mine. You’ve quoted from a newspaper.? Which one(s).?
So your source is someone inside football, or newspapers.? If I read your post how it is presented, it looks like the newspaper column makes the statement about 75%, not Rick Parry?
I’m not having a pop, I’m just confused.
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From a Bolton perspective, we’re probably going down whatever way the seasons finished but from a purely selfish point of view I hope McAnthonys play off system is voted through because the sheer cost to clubs like Donny and other smaller clubs will be crippling. L2 clubs showed sense cancelling the season now and it’s only pure greed and self interest from the McAnthonys of this world that are leading to L1 clubs not doing the same. By far the cheapest, easiest and most sensible decision is cancel now and save clubs money they don’t have and let everybody plan for when the game can return safely and with fans. Sadly I don’t think they’ll do that and will have to learn the hard way. We won’t have any additional costs which means we can invest our money in players to make a quick return without points penalties.
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FR, if you don't strengthen you will be a poor side in division 2, and you need to clear your debts from this season.
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I am for finishing the season now. We all love our football as other fans do. I as a nurse don’t seem to get that players can be checked regular when front line can’t. Football will survive, a lot of people haven’t since the pandemic hit our shores. A lot more might not. Let’s put things in perspective
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Difference with us and Bolton is that we live within our means , our owners are local ,not in it for the money
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Not sure on the timescale for a pitch to be ready but I’ve seen that Bristol rovers have starting digging the pitch up ready for a new one. Do they know something we don’t?
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Not sure on the timescale for a pitch to be ready but I’ve seen that Bristol rovers have starting digging the pitch up ready for a new one. Do they know something we don’t?
I guess they probably scheduled to do that now anyway.?
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Not sure on the timescale for a pitch to be ready but I’ve seen that Bristol rovers have starting digging the pitch up ready for a new one. Do they know something we don’t?
Aren’t Lincoln and Tranmere doing something similar too.
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The last I heard they had not paid us the money owed for the cancelled game awarded to us by the hearing claiming it was nothing to do with the new owners the old ones owed the debt.
If that is so they should never have been admitted to the league as a new club they should be at the same level as Bury.
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What are you on about.?
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ND.
I'm not wanting to have an argument for the sake of having an argument.
I'm saying I don't find your case particularly convincing, when you say X can't happened because it's unprecedented, then say Y (which is unprecedented) must happen.
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Difference with us and Bolton is that we live within our means , our owners are local ,not in it for the money
Dray, our new owners are both local with the main one a Wanderers fan since childhood. Their intention is to live within their means but since most teams spend more than they earn its down to owners to also subsidise. I’m afraid that’s life these days and hopefully if anything good can come out of this horrible virus let’s hope it’s a common sense approach to football finances and split of money within the game.
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FR, if you don't strengthen you will be a poor side in division 2, and you need to clear your debts from this season.
We will strengthen selby but with only 6 current players under contract after June we can wait to see what happens and recruit then. In the meantime we won’t be saddled with player costs and the way things are going there will be a good many players out of work so plenty to choose from. Financially we are in a better position than most in the EFL with serious investors behind the scenes. As property developers and owning both the stadium, hotel and land around the ground there are already plans along those lines so unlike most clubs we aren’t reliant on just football revenue. We’ve been through the mill just like you did with a rogue owner and you’ve come out of it well and I fully expect Wanderers to as well now.
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Draytonian, irrespective of how Bolton are run it’s not really right to say that we live within our means. We live within the boundaries of what our owners are willing to subsidise - we still lose a couple of million a year and are reliant on them to cover that shortfall.
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Living within our means and owners boundaries is the same thing, everyone knows the majority of football clubs run at a loss, the owners subsidies the club, but they do it at their discretion. Unlike the likes of Bolton who threw money at something that was never going to work, remember the F.A.Cup game a few years back when had Anleka on the bench. The only times when Bolton ground was sold out was for the visits of the Manchester teams or Liverpool.
Cast your mind back to some of the other players they signed on mega money, fees and wages
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Living within our means and owners boundaries is the same thing, everyone knows the majority of football clubs run at a loss, the owners subsidies the club, but they do it at their discretion. Unlike the likes of Bolton who threw money at something that was never going to work, remember the F.A.Cup game a few years back when had Anleka on the bench. The only times when Bolton ground was sold out was for the visits of the Manchester teams or Liverpool.
Cast your mind back to some of the other players they signed on mega money, fees and wages
But weren’t most of those paid in cash money inside brown paper bags
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Also I still find it strange that if Bury and Bolton had been in different settings Bolton would have been saved, ex Premier League etc
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Wasn’t there an announcement due today re League One
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Wasn’t there an announcement due today re League One
Well, according to last Fridays announcement the L1 clubs were due to meet again today.
It would appear that no agreement was reached otherwise it would have been all over the sports websites.
It could go on and on.
Classic EFL
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I think it should be PPG , but and it’s a very big but if they do have a play off system put in who do want to go up ?
Oxford or Wycombe (depending on PPG ) ?
Fleetwood - d**khead manager ?
Peterborough - d**khead chairman ?
Sunderland - d**kheads living in the past ?
Ipswich - as above ?
Pompey - d**khead with a bell ?
Thinking back to the league table, Wycombe could have a case for saying that Rotherham would be lucky to get the second auto promo slot allocated to them because if Wycombe had won their game in hand they would have also been on 62 points with Rotherham.
With nine games to go that could have gone either way.
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Wasn’t there an announcement due today re League One
Well, according to last Fridays announcement the L1 clubs were due to meet again today.
It would appear that no agreement was reached otherwise it would have been all over the sports websites.
It could go on and on.
Classic EFL
Meeting didn't happen today.
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Why was that SM.
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Why was that SM.
I don't think they could get the proposals ready in time.
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According to Liam Hoden, they will wait after the EFL meeting on Wednesday, at which there may be several options which the Clubs can vote on, come Friday. Null and voiding this season will not be an option, either.
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On talksport 2 tonight they had a 1 hour discussion about the EFL and the Peterborough chairman in particular.
The consensus was that there is no set rules other than if a vote is taken, because there is no prior rules covering this particular situation, as long as the vote is taken in the correct manner any disagreement with the decision would have very little legal credence, and although the bigger clubs have a number behind them if they are out voted to void the season it would hold legally with a majority.
The cost of completing the games in empty stadiums is the sticking point, Sky and BT have made it plain today they want a massive repayment from the Premiership and the EFL, I expect it to now get dirty. Hopefully someone will realise they can save a big chunk stopping parachute payments, I have no doubt the big six will because it is one thing that is unlikely to concern them.
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So does this mean Bolton escape punishment once again?
Don't worry about them. If they don't get relegated, bully for them, but ultimately it doesn't matter.
What matters is having football to watch after all this is over.
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Darragh MacAnthony tweet:
So much vitriol on here from one set of fans over last few days. Irony is they have no need to be aiming it this way. In time they will realize that. Just a few transparent points to clarify as facts are better than fiction or speculation In the @EFL meeting last week there was no talk of a vote that day, there was no raised voices, nobody laying the law down. Just all clubs having their voices heard regardless of sizes. Talks about current season & future season & issues we all face financially. The appetite for most in tophalf was to play our season out.Majority of other half had no desire to play due to finances which is understandable in current pandemic from their point of view.Ideas were thrown around on how top half can play games to decide fair way to finish Which allowed the clubs not wanting to play to get on with not stressing over contract extensions or financial side of starting up again. EFL Chairman said let's all think about it and come up creative ideas to finish the season. For the top half the financial implications of not playing again in some way versus cost of playing was large with potential refunds on so many things hence importance of hearing both sides of our league and its clubs. I am ok being portrayed as some sort of lone wolf villain but truth is there are more clubs then just me who feel football needs to return for them &everybody involved of course have looked at all options including legal ones as they are large businesses with shareholders & Financial Responsibilities that make it the right and prudent thing to do.There is no one size fits all solution that suits all clubs but compromises could/should be found.We are all 'football' clubs & our product is football & with potential greenlight by Government coming For Football returning Many clubs wanted to get back to playing football in any situation that allows it/in safe professionally advised way.None of this is holding up other clubs planning for future even if Hibernation is their plan. Even if our season finished 2weeks ago There is no set date for new season/details on immediate horizon due to whats going on in the world so this idea of clubs wanting to get on with 'planning' is just not true or feasible. For weeks I have advocated for football to resume when safe to do so but also I have Engaged with EFL directly about ideas on how to raise the funds necessary to help all football clubs through this crisis as after 15 years in the EFL; I don't want to see anymore clubs go under. This is still my main goal regardless of some of the nonsense levied at me Furloughs wont last forever/Football with/without fans will happen as shown in other Countries.Hibernation imo wont be an option for clubs contracted to play football with TV deals in place/contracts with players in place. Our club employs a large number of non footballing staff who are in £18k-£35k per year bracket. One of goals of me/partners is to ensure when furlough ends that we don't lose any of these people because of this crisis. I am a football fan like majority of people on here. If some club fans/forums want to make me out to be the bad guy then have at it but I am football person with a love for our game & worry that without playing football when allowed; then what do we have left? I am thick skinned to take the criticism if fair/balanced or if The views are different from mine. But to accuse me of being greedy is another irony considering in 15 years in football I have not made a pound note from our beautiful game. Some wont admit it; but truth is that you would want me fighting your corner in a crisis & my 'Football' club & its employees have told me to fight for their jobs long term. I will always do that regardless of criticism/public perception. For now I have said my piece & will get on with fighting for 'football' long term. This horrible Virus will be defeated, normality will come back & our beautiful game will be back. Our EFL will find a way to help us through the hard period financially & I long for the days or getting trolled for football results & opinions on transfers. Love to you all 💙
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Wonder where all the transfer monies went to?
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This the same bloke who, as chairman of a professional league club, openly called a professional footballer from another club a “w**ker” in the public domain, and received no sanction from the football authorities.?
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What happened to the 140 character rule?
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What happened to the 140 character rule?
It was over 16 posts.
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So is there a meeting today of the league 1 clubs?
Will there be a vote?
Will it be decisive enough?
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Sounds like the commentary in an episode of “Hong Kong Phoey” there Bedale.!
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I saw an article suggesting each clubs views with a quite even split between those wishing to carry on and those wishing to end with about 3 clubs reportedly 'sat on the fence' of which we were one. And Southend wanting null and void.
How accurate the report was is anyone's guess. With EPL starting training and with the infection rate continuing to drop, I wonder whether we might look back and regret not finishing the season in one way or another, if the vote goes to end it now.
Of course health and safety is paramount however if this proposal from MacAnthony is robust enough and limits the number of games then at least there could be some closure to 19/20 for all involved.
That said, one or two bigger clubs are going to lose out big time and I hope they are prepared for that.
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/do-they-know-what-they-are-getting-themselves-question-foresight-battle-promotion-championship-liam-hoden-column-2858754
Summed up quite well by Hoden.
I think we've covered this before but I'd be willing to defer my St refund for another day if it helps. Having not purchased for next season until knowing more about how things progress, I might not be putting into the club right now but I certainly don't want to be taking money out.
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So is there a meeting today of the league 1 clubs?
Will there be a vote?
Will it be decisive enough?
There's a meeting of the EFL Board today, the clubs are scheduled for Friday.
After the meeting they should have some proposals for the clubs to enable a vote to take place. Last weeks meeting didn't have a vote because no proposals had been tabled, it was purely a discussion about positions and possible solutions.
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/do-they-know-what-they-are-getting-themselves-question-foresight-battle-promotion-championship-liam-hoden-column-2858754
Summed up quite well by Hoden.
I think we've covered this before but I'd be willing to defer my St refund for another day if it helps. Having not purchased for next season until knowing more about how things progress, I might not be putting into the club right now but I certainly don't want to be taking money out.
I don’t want a refund, there were only three hime games left anyway, as for next season, mines already bought and paid for in full, I’m not too fussed about that either
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/do-they-know-what-they-are-getting-themselves-question-foresight-battle-promotion-championship-liam-hoden-column-2858754
Summed up quite well by Hoden.
I think we've covered this before but I'd be willing to defer my St refund for another day if it helps. Having not purchased for next season until knowing more about how things progress, I might not be putting into the club right now but I certainly don't want to be taking money out.
I don’t want a refund, there were only three hime games left anyway, as for next season, mines already bought and paid for in full, I’m not too fussed about that either
Agree 100% Filo.
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Same here Filo, very few things in life have given me as much pleasure (and I suppose heart ache) as supporting the Rovers, it is my turn to give a bit back.
Fortunately I am in a position to do so, and appreciate others may not be and other things are more important, I wish them well and hope to see them in better times as I am sure we all do.
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I’ve paid for mine as well for season and I trust the club will sort something out about missed games or playing behind closed doors, I always feel a sense of pride when I tell people that I’m a season ticket holder at Doncaster Rovers
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I suppose that the fp article has humbled me too. I’ve paid for next seasons ticket too, I’m not fussed about a refund but please don’t tell my Mrs.
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I understand the discussions are far reaching, covering salary caps, restrictions on squad numbers and a number has to be from the clubs academy. Admittedly mentioned on this forum before, then it was a bit of a wish list, but now appears to be reality.
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I’ve bought next season’s ticket also not bothered about a refund if it allows the club to survive until we can once again attend
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I’ve purchased mine for next season too, I think the only thing I’d look for a refund will be Rotherham tickets ( I know Rovers get a bit of this but I’ve no desire to help Rotherham memories last long)
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I have just seen on the bbc sport website that Adrian Mariappa of Watford has tested positive for the virus.
He says he feels well and wouldn’t have known he had the virus had he not gone back to training and been tested.
Troy Deeney has now said that he won’t be going back to training as he has a five month old child with breathing difficulties and TD is worried that he might take the virus home.
Under the rules players and staff who test positive have to self isolate for seven days.
Apparently there is a movement to allow contract training to restart and the EPL were looking to resume matches by 12th June.
Whether they do restart by then or not there is the constant likely hood that players will test positive and so would then have to miss matches or that more players such as Deeney, would refuse to play.
There could be situations where teams might be missing four or five key players.
Would results of games in those circumstances be within the sporting integrity that we keep hearing about.
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The good thing to come out of it is that Mariappa is a football player and has been tested. If he was you or me with no signs or asymptomatic we wouldn’t be tested hence we could past it on to others. So we can test football players because they want the games back on yet we wont test people who show no symptoms.
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All this talk about football returning and players go back into training, but I’ve not seen any reports regarding match day officials and how they will be managed. After all without those the games don’t take place at all
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Excellent point Filo
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I can’t imagine that the scheme to test footballers wouldn’t be extended to match officials and stadium staff - I think this was covered in the original bbc report on the bundesliga coming back.
Testing of non-players will happen, but it isn’t going to be headline news.
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https://www.echo-news.co.uk/sport/18463828.league-one-clubs-get-two-options-end-season-will-relegate-southend-united/
If true looks like MacAnthony's proposal is off the table.
With the two remaining options, I would guess the vote would go to end the season now rather than play on.
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All this talk about football returning and players go back into training, but I’ve not seen any reports regarding match day officials and how they will be managed. After all without those the games don’t take place at all
We've thrown umpteen questions at the EPL about the resumption of the season, and they have had a response for everything. I wouldn't worry about things like this, they've thought of it all.
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All this talk about football returning and players go back into training, but I’ve not seen any reports regarding match day officials and how they will be managed. After all without those the games don’t take place at all
We've thrown umpteen questions at the EPL about the resumption of the season, and they have had a response for everything. I wouldn't worry about things like this, they've thought of it all.
What a said was I’ve not seen any reports regarding match day officials, thats not to say that these things are being discussed, I just thought it was worth a mention
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https://www.echo-news.co.uk/sport/18463828.league-one-clubs-get-two-options-end-season-will-relegate-southend-united/
If true looks like MacAnthony's proposal is off the table.
With the two remaining options, I would guess the vote would go to end the season now rather than play on.
The clubs have heard nothing from the EFL Board after yesterdays meeting, so no recommendations have been forthcoming.
I wouldn't read too much into that article. However from what I can gather there's no swell of support for MacAnthony's proposal.
I would expect something to happen today though so that the clubs can start to evaluate their positions.
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Hopefully this isn't the last we see of Mr Coppinger. :(
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Finally some clarity from the EFL. Looks like we're not going up then! :lol:
https://www.efl.com/news/2020/may/efl-statement-coronavirus-update2 (https://www.efl.com/news/2020/may/efl-statement-coronavirus-update2)
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There’ll be some clubs throwing their toys out of their prams now. We are in unprecedented times and unfortunately unprecedented measures are needed
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From the top 8, where it's so close there obviously will be 2 teams who will be pissed off and feel robbed if they're not allowed in to any play offs that happening. If that's decided because some teams have already played Bolton and Southend and others haven't then that's harsh.
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Very good news that this will disadvantage Peterborough and take them out of play offs where they currently are and dump them back in with the rest of us, well clear of any promotion risk. Unlucky.
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It's not a potentially bad outcome for us simply as promotion this year could be disastrous, expensive and way before we are ready.
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I agree. It would get rid of bigger clubs like Coventry and Rotherham, also potentially Portsmouth through play offs. Bolton who are a big club and must soon turn a corner, also go. The clubs that come down from Championship are the smallest clubs in there. So long as Sunderland continue to massively underperform, then it is a fairly even league next season on this basis.
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Don’t think that statement really says much, still preferred to complete, wonder if Stevenage are having second thoughts.
In our league we need 12 clubs to vote for the ppg
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I agree. It would get rid of bigger clubs like Coventry and Rotherham, also potentially Portsmouth through play offs. Bolton who are a big club and must soon turn a corner, also go. The clubs that come down from Championship are the smallest clubs in there. So long as Sunderland continue to massively underperform, then it is a fairly even league next season on this basis.
Not necessarily. It depends on what action the EFL take with regard to Derby County and SWFC about the sale of their grounds at inflated prices. Its quite possible that the penalties imposed will see them relegated instead of Barnsley.
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That is a fair point SM. Not holding my breath though for any tough action being taken those two, especially as they are no promotion or relegation threat in Championship.
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That is a fair point SM. Not holding my breath though for any tough action being taken those two, especially as they are no promotion or relegation threat in Championship.
I wouldn't hold mine either, but with Barnsley threatening legal action if it doesn't happen before the seasons end it could get very interesting.
Can you imagine both SWFC and DC in Lg1 with a £2.5m wage cap??
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Very good news that this will disadvantage Peterborough and take them out of play offs where they currently are and dump them back in with the rest of us, well clear of any promotion risk. Unlucky.
I feel so sad for Peterborough and in particular Darragh MacAnthony. Just think if they had beaten us just once this season they would now be sat in the top 2. All thanks to Kieren Sadlier the guy he called a w*nker and also said who the f*ck is Kieren Sadlier on social media. Well ill tell you he is Darragh he is the guy who together with his teamates who has cost you promotion this season. Karma.
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SM, I agree with a pay cap, but surely because of existing contracts that may or may not effect ourselves, a stepped progress towards the full implementation will have to be put into effect.
Surely teams like Sunderland and Portsmouth would be way over the suggested level, Rotherham I was told at the start of the season was £6.5 million player budget as was Oxfords and Coventry's and Peterborough even more although their biggest wage earner left in January.
How are existing term contracts going to be altered to meet the required level, such as Marquis would take a big bite out of a the budget set as we hear it is and is contracted for a couple more seasons and so will more of the Portsmouth squad, along with the Sunderland squad, also their transfer value will have plummeted with only success on the field of play from now on helping to retain that.
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I’ve bought next season’s ticket also not bothered about a refund if it allows the club to survive until we can once again attend
Likewise. I've already spent the money and it's not like a holiday where I want a refund so I can go somewhere else another time. There's only one Rovers and they're welcome to keep my money.
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SM, I agree with a pay cap, but surely because of existing contracts that may or may not effect ourselves, a stepped progress towards the full implementation will have to be put into effect.
Surely teams like Sunderland and Portsmouth would be way over the suggested level, Rotherham I was told at the start of the season was £6.5 million player budget as was Oxfords and Coventry's and Peterborough even more although their biggest wage earner left in January.
How are existing term contracts going to be altered to meet the required level, such as Marquis would take a big bite out of a the budget set as we hear it is and is contracted for a couple more seasons and so will more of the Portsmouth squad, along with the Sunderland squad, also their transfer value will have plummeted with only success on the field of play from now on helping to retain that.
selby,
They still have to work out the details and implement the regulation changes, but there will be a transitional period, obviously, but clubs won't have a free reign. Cutting back the sizes of the squad will have an impact as well.
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All things being equal, the larger clubs in our league especially Sunderland and Ipswich could easily pay players way more than a 2.5m cap per season, without getting into financial trouble, due to their huge crowds. They would be foregoing a major advantage in this league by agreeing to the salary cap - BUT if there are no crowds for what 6-12-18 months? That foregone advantage is not well, foregone. Their overheads would be huge also compared to ours, beyond players salaries.
Don’t know enough what will happen to contracts etc they clubs are legally bound to pay, but for players that are above that 2.5m cap. Presume still have to be paid off in se form somehow, but those lads cannot play? In which case a huge dead weight financial loss to those clubs.
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Speaking selfishly, I won't be losing any sleep if unweighted PPG is used and Peterborough and Sunderland miss out on the Play Offs.
If anything I'll enjoy a better night's sleep than I have in a while!
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Speaking selfishly, I won't be losing any sleep if unweighted PPG is used and Peterborough and Sunderland miss out on the Play Offs.
If anything I'll enjoy a better night's sleep than I have in a while!
Weighted ppg is not an option so they’re not going anywhere .
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Speaking selfishly, I won't be losing any sleep if unweighted PPG is used and Peterborough and Sunderland miss out on the Play Offs.
If anything I'll enjoy a better night's sleep than I have in a while!
Ditto!
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Such a shame
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
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The real issue sporting wise is clubs like Tranmere, on great form and unable to continue it.
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
A bit of an exaggeration to call it 'shockingly bad' BST.
If no more football is to played to complete the season, I don't think any system of determining final positions can be perfect. You can't please everybody in a situation like this.
But for me, straightforward PPG is the simplest and least controversial way.
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Then the fairest solution is not to complete the season.
Permit the games and appearances to “count”‘for player and club stats etc, but void the table.
Unless any club has already secured a promotion or been relegated, then nothing, absolutely nothing, has yet been decided on the pitch. Voiding the season is harsh on clubs who were most likely to go up, but at least it is the only model which is absolutely equal in its treatment of all clubs, and doesn’t include any result predictions which don’t or can’t include form changes, injuries etc.
Form changes etc are all part of what we love about the game - it needs to be unpredictable.
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'Form' my arse. It will be like starting again for all teams! Anyone who's ever played sport knows the last thing you want when in form, is a break.
It is what it is. Time to look forward not back.
It's just a shame we won't see some of the players again if time is called. DM"s team never quite realised it's full potential and we will never know how things would have truly panned out.
I'm sure there will be a few clubs in a much worse state than ours when this is brought to a close. Let's be thankful for that.
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Just a thought, with the playing staff furloughed, how will that affect recruitment?
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
A bit of an exaggeration to call it 'shockingly bad' BST.
If no more football is to played to complete the season, I don't think any system of determining final positions can be perfect. You can't please everybody in a situation like this.
But for me, straightforward PPG is the simplest and least controversial way.
Spot on!
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The real issue sporting wise is clubs like Tranmere, on
All teams good or bad have periods of good and and poor form throughout a season. Tranmere for the most part have been awful.
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The real issue sporting wise is clubs like Tranmere, on
All teams good or bad have periods of good and and poor form throughout a season. Tranmere for the most part have been awful.
Adapting to a new league. Our seasons would have ended very differently if the final 10 games were not done. We'd not have been relegated from the championship for onr and perhaps had a league 2 title....
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
Not really, no.
There is, under current regulations, no weight afforded to home or away games.
Plus, to quote the EFL;
There is no basis for concluding, home and away is the only factor. For example, it is equally valid to consider strength of opponents played to date and potentially others. All of which points to forecasting the outcome of the season as opposed to determining placings at the point of curtailment.
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Voiding the season seems a good option to be honest except that in my mind Bolton benefit then, what were they one game away from confirmed relegation?
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
A bit of an exaggeration to call it 'shockingly bad' BST.
If no more football is to played to complete the season, I don't think any system of determining final positions can be perfect. You can't please everybody in a situation like this.
But for me, straightforward PPG is the simplest and least controversial way.
OK.
I'll revise that.
Of all the realistic ways that you could use to find fair and reasonable final rankings, unweighted PPG is about the worst imaginable.
It is an utterly stupid way of doing it in ANY circumstances. In the current L1 scenario, with a fag paper separating half a dozen clubs, and it is idiotic.
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
Not really, no.
There is, under current regulations, no weight afforded to home or away games.
Plus, to quote the EFL;
There is no basis for concluding, home and away is the only factor. For example, it is equally valid to consider strength of opponents played to date and potentially others. All of which points to forecasting the outcome of the season as opposed to determining placings at the point of curtailment.
Follow your logic then. Using unweighted PPG DOES apply weight to home and away records.
Wycombe have played 34 games. 18 at home and 16 away.
So, their current unweighted PPG comes from a skewed dataset. It comprises 53% of games played at home and 47% played away.
The whole point of weighting the PPG is precisely to make sure that the final figure is unweighted.
And that is before you drill into the much bigger question of the imbalances in quality of the teams that each side has played and still has to play.
For example, Rotherham still had 5 of the to 9 to play and only 3 of the bottom 9. Fleetwood, 2 points behind them, had 2 of the top 9 to play and 6 of the bottom 9.
So the EFL line appears to be: Because it looks too hard to come up with a good solution, we will use the worst one available.
I can see the logic though. They are presumably concerned with legal challenges against ANY approach. And the thinking is that the simpler the approach, the more they can hold their hands up and say "well we had to do SOMETHING."
In which case, fine. But don't try to spin this is being in any way genuinely fair.
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I guess hindsight might be at play here, but perhaps someone should have foreseen the possibility of a scenario like this occurring at some point[1], and developed a more logical approach to determining final positions which all clubs could have signed up to beforehand.
[1] There was an inevitability about some financial, or natural disaster, or geo-political or health crisis leading to a situation like this sooner or later. It never dawned on me that it would happen, but then it ain't my job to do that horizon scanning.
PS: Or. Maybe in the big scheme of things, who goes up and who goes down really isn't that important...
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There is no absolutely safe mechanism here. Whatever you do you are delivering an imperfect result. It does though within these parameters seem fairer to look at home form to date, look at away form to date and then extrapolate that across the remaining home and away games. Not perfect but less imperfect than just straight ppg.
Unless of course this advantages Peterborough, in which case it should be dismissed out of hand.
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
A bit of an exaggeration to call it 'shockingly bad' BST.
If no more football is to played to complete the season, I don't think any system of determining final positions can be perfect. You can't please everybody in a situation like this.
But for me, straightforward PPG is the simplest and least controversial way.
OK.
I'll revise that.
Of all the realistic ways that you could use to find fair and reasonable final rankings, unweighted PPG is about the worst imaginable.
It is an utterly stupid way of doing it in ANY circumstances. In the current L1 scenario, with a fag paper separating half a dozen clubs, and it is idiotic.
So you've revised your opinion from it being 'shockingly bad' to 'utterly stupid' and 'idiotic'.
I never imagined you would possess the grace and humility to perform such an enormous climb-down BST ....
;)
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
A bit of an exaggeration to call it 'shockingly bad' BST.
If no more football is to played to complete the season, I don't think any system of determining final positions can be perfect. You can't please everybody in a situation like this.
But for me, straightforward PPG is the simplest and least controversial way.
OK.
I'll revise that.
Of all the realistic ways that you could use to find fair and reasonable final rankings, unweighted PPG is about the worst imaginable.
It is an utterly stupid way of doing it in ANY circumstances. In the current L1 scenario, with a fag paper separating half a dozen clubs, and it is idiotic.
So you've revised your opinion from it being 'shockingly bad' to 'utterly stupid' and 'idiotic'.
I never imagined you would possess the grace and humility to perform such an enormous climb-down BST ....
;)
See my follow-up Pancho. I'm giving reasons for my opinion. What do you base your criticism of my opinion on?
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I guess hindsight might be at play here, but perhaps someone should have foreseen the possibility of a scenario like this occurring at some point[1], and developed a more logical approach to determining final positions which all clubs could have signed up to beforehand.
[1] There was an inevitability about some financial, or natural disaster, or geo-political or health crisis leading to a situation like this sooner or later. It never dawned on me that it would happen, but then it ain't my job to do that horizon scanning.
PS: Or. Maybe in the big scheme of things, who goes up and who goes down really isn't that important...
I think the number of factors that could be involved in this are fascinating but almost make it difficult to use anything other than PPG. If you consider the way we try and predict individual fixtures and the level of detail we go into I'm not sure how you could cram it all in to an algorithm. On top of the obvious home and away weighting there's:
Some teams actually do better against teams above them than teams below them
Some teams fair better/worse against physical sides
As above but with flair sides
Some teams have grounds where they have an unusually high/low success rates
Short term form
Historical slumps/surges
I think its more complex than D/L in cricket as that is only used to complete a game. We're trying to simulate 10 games and even then we can't factor in the knock on effect of each result on the next hypothetical result too.
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
Not really, no.
There is, under current regulations, no weight afforded to home or away games.
Plus, to quote the EFL;
There is no basis for concluding, home and away is the only factor. For example, it is equally valid to consider strength of opponents played to date and potentially others. All of which points to forecasting the outcome of the season as opposed to determining placings at the point of curtailment.
Follow your logic then. Using unweighted PPG DOES apply weight to home and away records.
Wycombe have played 34 games. 18 at home and 16 away.
So, their current unweighted PPG comes from a skewed dataset. It comprises 53% of games played at home and 47% played away.
The whole point of weighting the PPG is precisely to make sure that the final figure is unweighted.
And that is before you drill into the much bigger question of the imbalances in quality of the teams that each side has played and still has to play.
For example, Rotherham still had 5 of the to 9 to play and only 3 of the bottom 9. Fleetwood, 2 points behind them, had 2 of the top 9 to play and 6 of the bottom 9.
So the EFL line appears to be: Because it looks too hard to come up with a good solution, we will use the worst one available.
I can see the logic though. They are presumably concerned with legal challenges against ANY approach. And the thinking is that the simpler the approach, the more they can hold their hands up and say "well we had to do SOMETHING."
In which case, fine. But don't try to spin this is being in any way genuinely fair.
I wasn't applying my logic, nor did I say that it was unfair or otherwise.
What I've given you is the criteria that the EFL used for determining the end of a season, if that's what the clubs choose, when sporting integrity can't provide the answer.
The EFL, if they go down this route, will have to make changes to their own regulations to allow this to conclude.
Its forecasting which ever way you look at it, just applying your version of a forecast doesn't make it fairer or otherwise, its still a false conclusion to a sporting contest.
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We've all got our opinions on what the best solution is, but the truth is it is a very difficult decision to come to and I'm glad the EFL are standing up and saying "it will be done this way" instead of the arguing at professional level being allowed to rumble on.
I'm all for PPG, I think voiding nearly 40 games worth of a season to be the asinine and dreadful choice we should avoid.
I'd be interested to see every team's Home vs Away record to see how much of a difference playing at home really makes. In 2012/13 our home record was naff but we won the league off the strength of being brilliant away. What would weighted PPG after 38 games have done to us that year?
The fact is there is literally no perfect solution unless coronavirus is magically eradicated overnight.
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The differing opinions on this thread shows how difficult it is to get a consensus of opinion without set out rules and laws.
For the good of the game the EFL have got to get organised and appoint strong independent from the clubs leadership, and be strong enough to be willing to impose those rules and laws.
There are people in the game who have done nothing but skim off money for years in charge of clubs as managers who have done deals with agents and players even going on the after dinner speaking circuit bragging about it.
The higher up the league's you go the more spivs are attached to the game, and the greed is there for all to see and the game set up to feed the few, with the majority feeding off any scraps thrown on the floor for them.
I cannot understand a governing body of the game, or even the government letting millions of pounds go into the pocket of agents and spivs and at the same time see the smaller clubs struggle for funds.
It is time to put taxes on the deals and the individuals involved as a fund to the smaller clubs, and if the game itself is unwilling to sort it out the government should step in.
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I agree. It would get rid of bigger clubs like Coventry and Rotherham, also potentially Portsmouth through play offs. Bolton who are a big club and must soon turn a corner, also go. The clubs that come down from Championship are the smallest clubs in there. So long as Sunderland continue to massively underperform, then it is a fairly even league next season on this basis.
. Rotherham a big club????
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It’s also time for agents earnings to be capped, or as they are working for the player, the player should pay the agent fees. If the games financial structures are to change, it should be the whole game, agents included
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
Not really, no.
There is, under current regulations, no weight afforded to home or away games.
Plus, to quote the EFL;
There is no basis for concluding, home and away is the only factor. For example, it is equally valid to consider strength of opponents played to date and potentially others. All of which points to forecasting the outcome of the season as opposed to determining placings at the point of curtailment.
Follow your logic then. Using unweighted PPG DOES apply weight to home and away records.
Wycombe have played 34 games. 18 at home and 16 away.
So, their current unweighted PPG comes from a skewed dataset. It comprises 53% of games played at home and 47% played away.
The whole point of weighting the PPG is precisely to make sure that the final figure is unweighted.
And that is before you drill into the much bigger question of the imbalances in quality of the teams that each side has played and still has to play.
For example, Rotherham still had 5 of the to 9 to play and only 3 of the bottom 9. Fleetwood, 2 points behind them, had 2 of the top 9 to play and 6 of the bottom 9.
So the EFL line appears to be: Because it looks too hard to come up with a good solution, we will use the worst one available.
I can see the logic though. They are presumably concerned with legal challenges against ANY approach. And the thinking is that the simpler the approach, the more they can hold their hands up and say "well we had to do SOMETHING."
In which case, fine. But don't try to spin this is being in any way genuinely fair.
I wasn't applying my logic, nor did I say that it was unfair or otherwise.
What I've given you is the criteria that the EFL used for determining the end of a season, if that's what the clubs choose, when sporting integrity can't provide the answer.
The EFL, if they go down this route, will have to make changes to their own regulations to allow this to conclude.
Its forecasting which ever way you look at it, just applying your version of a forecast doesn't make it fairer or otherwise, its still a false conclusion to a sporting contest.
I entirely agree that it is forecasting, whichever way you look at it. The question is whether that forecasting is as reasonably intelligent as you can make it, or wilfully dumb.
To answer DN, to me, it is blindingly obvious that there are two major first order influences to the accuracy of any predictor: How you have left to play and where you have left to play them. As a general rule (and you don't drill down into each club's nuances, you look at the big picture) clubs generally get more points from matches at home to poor sides than they do in matches away at strong sides. There's no real arguing the case on that and pointing out particular examples that go against that is irrelevant - we are talking about averages.
Ignoring those factors in a scenario like the top of L1 is pretty much guaranteed to result in poor predictions.
Wycombe are a good example of the H/A issue. By NOT weighting their performance to date on how many matches they have played at home and away, you get a prediction that they will get 76.4 points from 44 games. By taking into account the fact that they have only 4 Home and 6 Away games left, you get a predicted final tally of 74.7 points. At the moment, moving a team up by 1.7 points would move them from 8th to 3rd in the table. That alone shows how senseless it is to not take H/A weighting into account.
Then there is WHO sides have left to play.
Rotherham still have to play:
Fleetwood
Wycombe
Portsmouth
Doncaster
Sunderland
from the top 9 and
Southend
Tranmere
Bolton
from the bottom 9.
Fleetwood have to play:
Oxford
Rotherham
(top 9)
MK Dons
Accrington
Lincoln
Tranmere
Southend
Bolton
(Bottom 9).
Clearly a major factor in Rotherham having a marginally higher PPG than Fleetwood as of today is the the fact that they have, on average, played significantly weaker sides in their first 35 games. There's a similar case that Sunderland, Portsmouth and Peterborough are being unfairly treated by ignoring this, relative to Rotherham, Wycombe and Oxford. It wouldn't be difficult to devise a fair algorithm to factor these issues in. It appears to be lack of desire on the part of the EFL to do so.
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It’s also time for agents earnings to be capped, or as they are working for the player, the player should pay the agent fees. If the games financial structures are to change, it should be the whole game, agents included
Filo, whilst I don't disagree with the sentiment, the content of your post and its points are not correct.
Agents fees in divisions one and two and a lot of Championship sides are very small (2-10k probably) or non existent in some cases. In the EPL & other countries Premier Leagues sides of course things are very different but then the players earnings are also on a different scale altogether. But equally agents represent clubs not just players, Clubs rely on agents, openly encourage it in fact and accept that there is a fee to be paid.
Also, a players agent contract includes a percentage of earnings, image rights etc anyway so players are in fact the ones that pay the agents anyway already when a player is in his prime years. Also, agents normally take little or nothing when being involved in the transfer of a young players first few contract negotiations but continue to work for and with that player in the hope that as they are successful on the pitch they in turn will reap the benefits longer term when they earn a bigger longer term contract.
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Are you an agent then ND.?
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Are you an agent then ND.?
No
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I agree. It would get rid of bigger clubs like Coventry and Rotherham, also potentially Portsmouth through play offs. Bolton who are a big club and must soon turn a corner, also go. The clubs that come down from Championship are the smallest clubs in there. So long as Sunderland continue to massively underperform, then it is a fairly even league next season on this basis.
. Rotherham a big club????
Nope - as I said “bigger” club(s). They have very recently been in the Championship, which is more than can be said for the majority of the teams in League One. Rotherham are one of the bigger clubs in League One currently.
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PS: Or. Maybe in the big scheme of things, who goes up and who goes down really isn't that important...
That about sums it up for me, BST. And, if you look at the bottom 3 clubs in the Championship, the chances of any of the 3 teams going up from L1 doing anything next season are, probably, very slim indeed. Yes, it’ll mean their supporters get to see a better standard of football for one season, but for how much of next season people will be watching is anyone’s guess, at this stage!
I think your arguments are good from the point of view looking at the relative quality of the teams that the top sides have yet to play and I agree, it’s an improvement on the ‘weighted’ ppg system. However, with what we’re all having to contend with right now, it’s bordering on meaningless.
The bigger question, wrt football right now, is how many Clubs will be left to compete for anything? I’ve even read somewhere, recently, that it’s been suggested to bring in the top clubs B teams to pad the league out, if some clubs fall by the wayside. Can you imagine? All hell would break loose.
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PS: Or. Maybe in the big scheme of things, who goes up and who goes down really isn't that important...
That about sums it up for me, BST. And, if you look at the bottom 3 clubs in the Championship, the chances of any of the 3 teams going up from L1 doing anything next season are, probably, very slim indeed. Yes, it’ll mean their supporters get to see a better standard of football for one season, but for how much of next season people will be watching is anyone’s guess, at this stage!
I think your arguments are good from the point of view looking at the relative quality of the teams that the top sides have yet to play and I agree, it’s an improvement on the ‘weighted’ ppg system. However, with what we’re all having to contend with right now, it’s bordering on meaningless.
The bigger question, wrt football right now, is how many Clubs will be left to compete for anything? I’ve even read somewhere, recently, that it’s been suggested to bring in the top clubs B teams to pad the league out, if some clubs fall by the wayside. Can you imagine? All hell would break loose.
Agreed. All of it.
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Regardless of who gains or loses, unweighted PPG is a shockingly bad way of determining final positions.
Not really, no.
There is, under current regulations, no weight afforded to home or away games.
Plus, to quote the EFL;
There is no basis for concluding, home and away is the only factor. For example, it is equally valid to consider strength of opponents played to date and potentially others. All of which points to forecasting the outcome of the season as opposed to determining placings at the point of curtailment.
Follow your logic then. Using unweighted PPG DOES apply weight to home and away records.
Wycombe have played 34 games. 18 at home and 16 away.
So, their current unweighted PPG comes from a skewed dataset. It comprises 53% of games played at home and 47% played away.
The whole point of weighting the PPG is precisely to make sure that the final figure is unweighted.
And that is before you drill into the much bigger question of the imbalances in quality of the teams that each side has played and still has to play.
For example, Rotherham still had 5 of the to 9 to play and only 3 of the bottom 9. Fleetwood, 2 points behind them, had 2 of the top 9 to play and 6 of the bottom 9.
So the EFL line appears to be: Because it looks too hard to come up with a good solution, we will use the worst one available.
I can see the logic though. They are presumably concerned with legal challenges against ANY approach. And the thinking is that the simpler the approach, the more they can hold their hands up and say "well we had to do SOMETHING."
In which case, fine. But don't try to spin this is being in any way genuinely fair.
I wasn't applying my logic, nor did I say that it was unfair or otherwise.
What I've given you is the criteria that the EFL used for determining the end of a season, if that's what the clubs choose, when sporting integrity can't provide the answer.
The EFL, if they go down this route, will have to make changes to their own regulations to allow this to conclude.
Its forecasting which ever way you look at it, just applying your version of a forecast doesn't make it fairer or otherwise, its still a false conclusion to a sporting contest.
I entirely agree that it is forecasting, whichever way you look at it. The question is whether that forecasting is as reasonably intelligent as you can make it, or wilfully dumb.
To answer DN, to me, it is blindingly obvious that there are two major first order influences to the accuracy of any predictor: How you have left to play and where you have left to play them. As a general rule (and you don't drill down into each club's nuances, you look at the big picture) clubs generally get more points from matches at home to poor sides than they do in matches away at strong sides. There's no real arguing the case on that and pointing out particular examples that go against that is irrelevant - we are talking about averages.
Ignoring those factors in a scenario like the top of L1 is pretty much guaranteed to result in poor predictions.
Wycombe are a good example of the H/A issue. By NOT weighting their performance to date on how many matches they have played at home and away, you get a prediction that they will get 76.4 points from 44 games. By taking into account the fact that they have only 4 Home and 6 Away games left, you get a predicted final tally of 74.7 points. At the moment, moving a team up by 1.7 points would move them from 8th to 3rd in the table. That alone shows how senseless it is to not take H/A weighting into account.
Then there is WHO sides have left to play.
Rotherham still have to play:
Fleetwood
Wycombe
Portsmouth
Doncaster
Sunderland
from the top 9 and
Southend
Tranmere
Bolton
from the bottom 9.
Fleetwood have to play:
Oxford
Rotherham
(top 9)
MK Dons
Accrington
Lincoln
Tranmere
Southend
Bolton
(Bottom 9).
Clearly a major factor in Rotherham having a marginally higher PPG than Fleetwood as of today is the the fact that they have, on average, played significantly weaker sides in their first 35 games. There's a similar case that Sunderland, Portsmouth and Peterborough are being unfairly treated by ignoring this, relative to Rotherham, Wycombe and Oxford. It wouldn't be difficult to devise a fair algorithm to factor these issues in. It appears to be lack of desire on the part of the EFL to do so.
BST - that's all very interesting but makes absolutely no difference to the end result and the method that will be used, assuming of course the clubs dont agree to finish the season which imho is extremely doubtful. What I would say, however, there is no such thing as an easy game, a team still has to go out to win every game and beat whats in front of them. As the saying goes "complacency breeds contempt" and any side going out excepting to win does so at their peril.
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The whole things a farce. The season should have been voided totally. But that was never going to happen.
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ND
Do you agree that sides near the bottom of the league tend, on average, to pick up points less often than sides near the top of the league?
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DFP article on the cost of carrying on;
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/cost-playing-financial-implications-doncaster-rovers-complete-201920-season-including-pricing-covid-19-testing-2861983
This is alongside no gate receipts from playing in an empty stadium.
Just make a decision EFL.....kicking the can down the road is not a solution.
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Name 12 teams who will want to carry on. Fact there's the play offs now likely to happen with PPG probably leaves about 3 or 4 teams who will want to carry on
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ND
Do you agree that sides near the bottom of the league tend, on average, to pick up points less often than sides near the top of the league?
That's irrelevant BST, every game is played over 90 minutes and each side go out to get points from the game irrespective of where they are in the league. We played some of the better teams expected to be in or around the top end of the league come the business end of the season, early in the season and picked up a very good haul of points. We then played sides that some on here were saying we should beat because they were expected to be in the lower part of the league and dropped points.
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ND.
But it's not about specific games. It's about the average, where over and under performances cancel out.
That is LITERALLY the difference between cup and league competitions.
But even then, I really don't get where you are coming from. What you are saying is that we SHOULD determine the end of season places on an averaging system. Just a very badly flawed one. And you are saying I'm wrong for wanting a much less flawed one.
Odd argument to make.
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PS: Or. Maybe in the big scheme of things, who goes up and who goes down really isn't that important...
That about sums it up for me, BST. And, if you look at the bottom 3 clubs in the Championship, the chances of any of the 3 teams going up from L1 doing anything next season are, probably, very slim indeed. Yes, it’ll mean their supporters get to see a better standard of football for one season, but for how much of next season people will be watching is anyone’s guess, at this stage!
I think your arguments are good from the point of view looking at the relative quality of the teams that the top sides have yet to play and I agree, it’s an improvement on the ‘weighted’ ppg system. However, with what we’re all having to contend with right now, it’s bordering on meaningless.
The bigger question, wrt football right now, is how many Clubs will be left to compete for anything? I’ve even read somewhere, recently, that it’s been suggested to bring in the top clubs B teams to pad the league out, if some clubs fall by the wayside. Can you imagine? All hell would break loose.
Alan, I read that conclusion to BSTs earlier quote and was reading through the rest of the thread before going on to say that his phrase was one that I totally agreed with.
To be honest, I have got to the point of thinking the same.
You beat me to saying it.
However, I also saw that bit in your post about B Teams making up the numbers and it reminded me of the JPT cup (or whatever it is called these days) and that people were saying that allowing the “big clubs” to play their U21 teams in the competition.
Clubs going out of business could inevitably lead to it happening.
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ND.
But it's not about specific games. It's about the average, where over and under performances cancel out.
That is LITERALLY the difference between cup and league competitions.
But even then, I really don't get where you are coming from. What you are saying is that we SHOULD determine the end of season places on an averaging system. Just a very badly flawed one. And you are saying I'm wrong for wanting a much less flawed one.
Odd argument to make.
Not odd atall BST but as usual you get a bee in your bonnet about something and cannot let it go.
You said in your earlier post that Rotherham were yet to play the stronger sides in the league inferring that they would drop points in the game they had left because they had not been tested. My point is that you cannot say that with any certainty, same as I am trying to explain to you that a team has no given right to expect to go out and win against a side at the bottom of the league. As I said in my last post, we (DRFC) beat a lot of the stronger sides earlier in the season but dropped points against some of the sides below us/towards the bottom of the league.
Equally as someone said on here earlier in this post, who's to say that sides in the relegation places in the league did not dig out a few useful results against some of the top sides to haul themselves out of trouble.
So my point is that using a PPG average is the only way to determine the final league placings based on results so far home and away, other than completing the season which is not going to happen now. What other method would you use to ensure we had promotion and relegation places? After all we are 80% into the leagues fixture programme after all.
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I've read and heard so much on this topic (not the average points) from all sorts of people across all spectrums and I'm just as confused as ever as to what is the right thing to do to draw a line under a season that will forever be denoted with one massive asterix against it.
Some say it will be a national embarrassment if we can't complete the season.
Some say completing the season will cause irreparable financial damage.
Some say they've earned the right to have the chance of promotion and desire that outcome even if that means other clubs going to the wall as a consequence.
Some say the government should bail out struggling clubs.
The EFL take views from clubs and say, well if you vote to end the season, we're going to relegate you anyway.
It appears the game as a whole is totally devoid of a collective voice of reason and leadership.
I certainly don't believe the government should be bailing out a game that boasted it being the best/richest league in the world.
From a financial perspective, there ought to be some means of being able to complete the season without any club being put into further financial hardship. Whether that be an advance on solidarity payments or whatever.
Professional football should be all for one and one for all, and should be able to decide to null and void the season or complete it right across the board. All clubs stand together for the greater good. “You'll never walk alone“ Really?
From a virus prospective, is it reasonably safe to work towards restarting the season? Probably. If it proves otherwise before the scheduled start date, then we're back to voiding the whole thing??
Are we really that divided as a football family that titles will be awarded, promotions won and celebrated, medals awarded at the expense of the existence of clubs within our great pyramid system that underpins the reason why millions of fans follow the game? And all that on the back of 1000's of deaths of fans who were here to support their team from the beginning and have since been taken from us.
I wish someone with common sense, compassion and reason would step forward and help English football do the right thing!
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Weighted ppg is fine until you look into the mathematics. Take Cov versus Wycombe. Play the game and there are 3 points up for grabs but using wppg the points awarded total greater than three which cannot be right in any logical scenario.
Likewise a fixture between two clubs near the bottom means they will share less than 3 points between them.
In no way can this be a fair representation nor uphold the integrity of the game. It's a load of manufactured cobblers. A travesty.
I care little for what happens with promotion but to relegate teams without fulfilling fixtures is wrong however you dress it up. The financial impact on a club, dip in attendances, loss of players, etc, cannot be imposed arbitrarily simply because a team is in the bottom 4 on a give day unless that day is after the 46th/44th round of games has ended.
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Precisely, which is why voiding the season is the only truly equitable way to end the season if it is not practical to play out all the fixtures.
If that happens then there clearly can be no promotion nor relegation.
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Precisely, which is why voiding the season is the only truly equitable way to end the season if it is not practical to play out all the fixtures.
If that happens then there clearly can be no promotion nor relegation.
Yeah but Bolton.
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If this season is void, Bolton should start on -12 next season.
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Precisely, which is why voiding the season is the only truly equitable way to end the season if it is not practical to play out all the fixtures.
If that happens then there clearly can be no promotion nor relegation.
Again, why would you void a season 80% complete, that's absolutely ridiculous!
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ND.
I understand precisely what you are saying. You want final places determined by a straight predictor based on current PPG.
As I say, despite your protestations, you ARE favouring a predictive approach. One that says the prediction of final points totals should be based on the assumption that teams would average in their remaining matches what they averaged in their matches to date.
I get that. And I've explained patiently why that is badly flawed.
If you are saying that you do not believe that on average teams pick up fewer points away than at home and that in average, side pick up fewer points in games against top sides than in games against weaker sides, that's your prerogative to think that.
The problem is, the evidence says that, on average, it is wrong.
If you disagree with any of that analysis, please explain why. Without accusing me if having a bee in my bonnet (translate: dispassionately disagreeing with you).
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Precisely, which is why voiding the season is the only truly equitable way to end the season if it is not practical to play out all the fixtures.
If that happens then there clearly can be no promotion nor relegation.
Again, why would you void a season 80% complete, that's absolutely ridiculous!
Because, quite simply, the season isn’t finished.
There’s no mathematical model which can fairly predict the remaining 20%. Football is too unpredictable.
Voiding is far from ideal but it is the only option which treats all clubs the same.
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ND
By the way, while we are talking about Rotherham, their current average POG in matches against sides in the top 9 is 1.09.
Their current average PPG against sides in the bottom 9 is 1.73.
If you carefully read what I'm saying, I'm not questioning that odd results can crop up in specific games. That is what makes football fun.
I'm talking about what happens ON AVERAGE.
You are too, you just don't seem to realise it. You are just talking about a different average. One that would very disproportionately benefit Rotherham and penalise Fleetwood and others.
As I say, if you disagree with that logic, please explain clearly why.
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By the way, this is an indication of how badly flawed unweighted PPG is.
In the 8 games Rotherham have left against teams from the top and bottom 9, if you simply award Rotherham the average PPG they have gained so far in all 35 matches, you would give them 14.17 points.
If, instead, you award them the average PPG they have got in matches against the top 9 for their 5 remaining matches against top 9 sides, and ditto for the 3 remaining games against bottom 9 sides, they'd get 10.64 points. That's a 3.5 point difference.
Given how tight the table is, that is the difference between automatic promotion and not even making the playoffs.
You see my point?
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Precisely, which is why voiding the season is the only truly equitable way to end the season if it is not practical to play out all the fixtures.
If that happens then there clearly can be no promotion nor relegation.
Again, why would you void a season 80% complete, that's absolutely ridiculous!
Because, quite simply, the season isn’t finished.
There’s no mathematical model which can fairly predict the remaining 20%. Football is too unpredictable.
Voiding is far from ideal but it is the only option which treats all clubs the same.
Using your words, "quite simply" voiding a season 80% in just because its not finished would have been utterly rediculous.
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This argument is a bit like a political one.
One side will never agree with the other and whatever decision is made then there will be people who are happy and others who won’t be.
Eventually the EFL will get round to making a decision and people will have to accept it.
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Precisely, which is why voiding the season is the only truly equitable way to end the season if it is not practical to play out all the fixtures.
If that happens then there clearly can be no promotion nor relegation.
Again, why would you void a season 80% complete, that's absolutely ridiculous!
Because, quite simply, the season isn’t finished.
There’s no mathematical model which can fairly predict the remaining 20%. Football is too unpredictable.
Voiding is far from ideal but it is the only option which treats all clubs the same.
Using your words, "quite simply" voiding a season 80% in just because its not finished would have been utterly rediculous.
No, it’s not rediculous nor even ridiculous.
There are only two ways the season could end which is equitable to all clubs. Play it out or void.
The amount of fixtures played already is irrelevant as there are plenty of games left to make the finishing table significantly different than any ppg model. Even if that means one or two different teams get promoted/relegated, that is highly significant to those clubs and to their rivals they replace in those positions.
I keep on saying, voiding is far from ideal, but it is the only way to go which is truly fair to all..
I can see the argument to try and concoct a conclusion, but I cannot see them as fair at all.
I don’t know if league one has a prize money structure relative to league position, but if there was, that could be applied to the table now as a gesture to recognise what each club has achieved so far.
Oh, and unless he has changes his mind over the last few weeks, DM has the same argument:
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-boss-darren-moore-says-season-should-be-voided-if-it-cannot-be-completed-2843797 (https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-boss-darren-moore-says-season-should-be-voided-if-it-cannot-be-completed-2843797)
DM has a reputation for being an honest guy, a moral and humble bloke. I happen to think he is right on this occasion.
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Trouble is, IDM, the EFL, in their infinite wisdom, have clearly stated that voiding will NOT be an option. That’s that.
We have 2 choices - play it out or terminate and go to ppg for the remaining fixtures. That’s what clubs have to vote on, like it or lump it.
I’d have preferred the EFL decided what was going to happen with no voting required, but their ‘need for strong leadership’ obviously doesn’t stretch to making uncomfortable decisions. L2 made it somewhat easy for them!
DBR, I agree with your final sentence, but I’m assuming you, like me, believe that entity, whoever they are, are certainly not the EFL! And, yes, why does the government have to be called on to bail out lower league Clubs, including ours, when the average annual wage of a Premiership footballer is in excess of the new proposed annual budget for L1 Clubs and whilst there are Clubs getting exorbitant parachute payments for getting relegated from the Premiership? Isn’t it time to get these things sorted? If it’s deemed it’s not time, then why not just scrap leagues 1 and 2 all together and then we don’t have to be an ‘after-thought’ anymore?
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I didn’t think any decisions had been made yet by the EFL - that’s one of the problems isn’t it.?
Making a decision is one thing, doesn’t mean it’s the right decision.
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That touches on the point I have been making all along though.It is only the wrong decision if you don’t agree with it.
To others, whatever decision is made, will be the right one.
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I agree IDM. As you and I agreed, there must be a financial mechanism by which every club can be assisted to complete the season without going cap in hand to the government. If a season restart based on that and/or it's deemed to be too risky from a health perspective, then it should be null and void.
Both the Rotherham chairman and the DFP said of Rovers it would cost the clubs around £400,000 to complete the fixtures including the current protocols of testing etc.
You then have to ask yourself, what is the point of completing the season? So a dozen clubs can gain honours while the other 80 either stay where they are or suffer relegation?
The more I think about this, the more inclined to think the best solution is null and void the season and restart the game when fans can start attending games.
It needs someone with bottle and common sense within the game to stand up and come forward.
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That touches on the point I have been making all along though.It is only the wrong decision if you don’t agree with it.
To others, whatever decision is made, will be the right one.
Because there has been no football I haven’t been looking at the DFP site much.
I formed my opinion independently ie without knowing what DM thought.
It seems our manager agrees with me.
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That touches on the point I have been making all along though.It is only the wrong decision if you don’t agree with it.
To others, whatever decision is made, will be the right one.
Because there has been no football I haven’t been looking at the DFP site much.
I formed my opinion independently ie without knowing what DM thought.
It seems our manager agrees with me.
FWIIW, I am past caring really whether the the football resumes or not.
It doesn’t matter whether you or I agree with ppg, playing on or completely wiping the records.
As I keep saying, some will be happy with the outcome and others won’t.
You can’t please all of the people all of the time.
That’s life.
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I agree, I think we have gone past the point where this season can resume on the pitch.
However you then need to find the “least worst” solution to end the season, and the only option, whether we like it or not, which is equally fair to all clubs is to void the season.
Of course that wouldn’t please everyone but they would know that they had been treated the same..
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Agreed. If anything, football should not be debating the issues of promotion or relegation, it should be about saving the game long term.
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Again I find myself making the same point again when it comes to the EFL and how decisions are reached.
You must remember its a membership organisation, so the EFL is the 71 clubs that participate in the competition. Its not a governing body. The EFL as a board and organisation are there to carry out the wishes of its members. That's why decisions are taken the way they are. They have to consult to find out what the various views are and then structure that into something that the majority of clubs will agree on. Nobody has ever seen a situation like this before, therefore there is no provision in the rules to accommodate what happens next. So, once the votes are cast a meeting will have to be called to then vote on the rule changes which will also need to be implemented.
It is convoluted, but its all there for a reason, it means a DRFC vote is worth just as much as any other clubs.
Just to add, this is the boards position;
The Board’s view has been consistent throughout that playing out the remainder of the 2019/20 season when it is safe to do so is the most appropriate course of action. Ideally, all divisions would do so, but as the period of lockdown continues we have been asked to consider what would happen if a particular division was unable to complete the normal season. The Board’s unanimous view is that the League should, as one, determine a consistent position that remains as closely aligned as possible to the existing rules in the event of early curtailment.
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Again I find myself making the same point again when it comes to the EFL and how decisions are reached.
You must remember its a membership organisation, so the EFL is the 71 clubs that participate in the competition. Its not a governing body. The EFL as a board and organisation are there to carry out the wishes of its members. That's why decisions are taken the way they are. They have to consult to find out what the various views are and then structure that into something that the majority of clubs will agree on. Nobody has ever seen a situation like this before, therefore there is no provision in the rules to accommodate what happens next. So, once the votes are cast a meeting will have to be called to then vote on the rule changes which will also need to be implemented.
It is convoluted, but its all there for a reason, it means a DRFC vote is worth just as much as any other clubs.
Just to add, this is the boards position;
The Board’s view has been consistent throughout that playing out the remainder of the 2019/20 season when it is safe to do so is the most appropriate course of action. Ideally, all divisions would do so, but as the period of lockdown continues we have been asked to consider what would happen if a particular division was unable to complete the normal season. The Board’s unanimous view is that the League should, as one, determine a consistent position that remains as closely aligned as possible to the existing rules in the event of early curtailment.
Was it the wishes of the 71 other clubs to boot Bury out of the league?
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Understood S_M. I'm not calling out the EFL on this one as such.
It'll need someone like Jurgen Klopp to come out and be bold and say, if we can't do it in front of our fans, we're not doing it. End of.
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Again I find myself making the same point again when it comes to the EFL and how decisions are reached.
You must remember its a membership organisation, so the EFL is the 71 clubs that participate in the competition. Its not a governing body. The EFL as a board and organisation are there to carry out the wishes of its members. That's why decisions are taken the way they are. They have to consult to find out what the various views are and then structure that into something that the majority of clubs will agree on. Nobody has ever seen a situation like this before, therefore there is no provision in the rules to accommodate what happens next. So, once the votes are cast a meeting will have to be called to then vote on the rule changes which will also need to be implemented.
It is convoluted, but its all there for a reason, it means a DRFC vote is worth just as much as any other clubs.
Just to add, this is the boards position;
The Board’s view has been consistent throughout that playing out the remainder of the 2019/20 season when it is safe to do so is the most appropriate course of action. Ideally, all divisions would do so, but as the period of lockdown continues we have been asked to consider what would happen if a particular division was unable to complete the normal season. The Board’s unanimous view is that the League should, as one, determine a consistent position that remains as closely aligned as possible to the existing rules in the event of early curtailment.
Was it the wishes of the 71 other clubs to boot Bury out of the league?
I think that unlike the current situation there are clear rules around insolvency and financial mismanagement so they were just applying what had already been agreed
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Again I find myself making the same point again when it comes to the EFL and how decisions are reached.
You must remember its a membership organisation, so the EFL is the 71 clubs that participate in the competition. Its not a governing body. The EFL as a board and organisation are there to carry out the wishes of its members. That's why decisions are taken the way they are. They have to consult to find out what the various views are and then structure that into something that the majority of clubs will agree on. Nobody has ever seen a situation like this before, therefore there is no provision in the rules to accommodate what happens next. So, once the votes are cast a meeting will have to be called to then vote on the rule changes which will also need to be implemented.
It is convoluted, but its all there for a reason, it means a DRFC vote is worth just as much as any other clubs.
Just to add, this is the boards position;
The Board’s view has been consistent throughout that playing out the remainder of the 2019/20 season when it is safe to do so is the most appropriate course of action. Ideally, all divisions would do so, but as the period of lockdown continues we have been asked to consider what would happen if a particular division was unable to complete the normal season. The Board’s unanimous view is that the League should, as one, determine a consistent position that remains as closely aligned as possible to the existing rules in the event of early curtailment.
Was it the wishes of the 71 other clubs to boot Bury out of the league?
Over simplifying as usual Filo.
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Understood S_M. I'm not calling out the EFL on this one as such.
It'll need someone like Jurgen Klopp to come out and be bold and say, if we can't do it in front of our fans, we're not doing it. End of.
That's not going to happen though Baz. The government are behind the resumption of the EPL, and it will happen, as will the Championship. But not LG1 and 2 I'm afraid.
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Again I find myself making the same point again when it comes to the EFL and how decisions are reached.
You must remember its a membership organisation, so the EFL is the 71 clubs that participate in the competition. Its not a governing body. The EFL as a board and organisation are there to carry out the wishes of its members. That's why decisions are taken the way they are. They have to consult to find out what the various views are and then structure that into something that the majority of clubs will agree on. Nobody has ever seen a situation like this before, therefore there is no provision in the rules to accommodate what happens next. So, once the votes are cast a meeting will have to be called to then vote on the rule changes which will also need to be implemented.
It is convoluted, but its all there for a reason, it means a DRFC vote is worth just as much as any other clubs.
Just to add, this is the boards position;
The Board’s view has been consistent throughout that playing out the remainder of the 2019/20 season when it is safe to do so is the most appropriate course of action. Ideally, all divisions would do so, but as the period of lockdown continues we have been asked to consider what would happen if a particular division was unable to complete the normal season. The Board’s unanimous view is that the League should, as one, determine a consistent position that remains as closely aligned as possible to the existing rules in the event of early curtailment.
Was it the wishes of the 71 other clubs to boot Bury out of the league?
I think that unlike the current situation there are clear rules around insolvency and financial mismanagement so they were just applying what had already been agreed
Exactly.
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I guess there will be a few Clubs in the Championship that will not be looking forwards to re-starting the season! No names mentioned, Grant.
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Again I find myself making the same point again when it comes to the EFL and how decisions are reached.
You must remember its a membership organisation, so the EFL is the 71 clubs that participate in the competition. Its not a governing body. The EFL as a board and organisation are there to carry out the wishes of its members. That's why decisions are taken the way they are. They have to consult to find out what the various views are and then structure that into something that the majority of clubs will agree on. Nobody has ever seen a situation like this before, therefore there is no provision in the rules to accommodate what happens next. So, once the votes are cast a meeting will have to be called to then vote on the rule changes which will also need to be implemented.
It is convoluted, but its all there for a reason, it means a DRFC vote is worth just as much as any other clubs.
Just to add, this is the boards position;
The Board’s view has been consistent throughout that playing out the remainder of the 2019/20 season when it is safe to do so is the most appropriate course of action. Ideally, all divisions would do so, but as the period of lockdown continues we have been asked to consider what would happen if a particular division was unable to complete the normal season. The Board’s unanimous view is that the League should, as one, determine a consistent position that remains as closely aligned as possible to the existing rules in the event of early curtailment.
Was it the wishes of the 71 other clubs to boot Bury out of the league?
Over simplifying as usual Filo.
Not really, they are either a governing body or they are not, and if they are not, as you stated, they are carrying out the wishes of 71 clubs
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That touches on the point I have been making all along though.It is only the wrong decision if you don’t agree with it.
To others, whatever decision is made, will be the right one.
Because there has been no football I haven’t been looking at the DFP site much.
I formed my opinion independently ie without knowing what DM thought.
It seems our manager agrees with me.
FWIIW, I am past caring really whether the the football resumes or not.
It doesn’t matter whether you or I agree with ppg, playing on or completely wiping the records.
As I keep saying, some will be happy with the outcome and others won’t.
You can’t please all of the people all of the time.
That’s life.
Exactly hound, finally someone gets it.
It doesn't matter what you or I think, or Darren Moore for that matter!
There can be only one of two outcomes from when the Division One clubs do finally meet again, playing the rest of the season out or using PPG to agree the final placings. Like it or lump it, fair or not, that's it and for me I am fine with that. Like you Hound I am past caring, sick to the back teeth with it all to be honest and just want to see a decision made.
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Of course it matters what DM thinks.. I would expect he has an influence within the club on how it votes within the EFL set up.?
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Again I find myself making the same point again when it comes to the EFL and how decisions are reached.
You must remember its a membership organisation, so the EFL is the 71 clubs that participate in the competition. Its not a governing body. The EFL as a board and organisation are there to carry out the wishes of its members. That's why decisions are taken the way they are. They have to consult to find out what the various views are and then structure that into something that the majority of clubs will agree on. Nobody has ever seen a situation like this before, therefore there is no provision in the rules to accommodate what happens next. So, once the votes are cast a meeting will have to be called to then vote on the rule changes which will also need to be implemented.
It is convoluted, but its all there for a reason, it means a DRFC vote is worth just as much as any other clubs.
Just to add, this is the boards position;
The Board’s view has been consistent throughout that playing out the remainder of the 2019/20 season when it is safe to do so is the most appropriate course of action. Ideally, all divisions would do so, but as the period of lockdown continues we have been asked to consider what would happen if a particular division was unable to complete the normal season. The Board’s unanimous view is that the League should, as one, determine a consistent position that remains as closely aligned as possible to the existing rules in the event of early curtailment.
Was it the wishes of the 71 other clubs to boot Bury out of the league?
Over simplifying as usual Filo.
Not really, they are either a governing body or they are not, and if they are not, as you stated, they are carrying out the wishes of 71 clubs
Well they're not a governing body as I've pointed out more times than I care to mention. Regulations are in place that covers most scenarios, including financial restrictions and the expulsion from the league if those regulations are broken. So, from a very simplistic point of view then they are carrying out the wishes of the other 71 clubs.
But I fail to see your point, this thread is about completing the season when we've encountered a situation which isn't covered by the regulations. Why bring the Bury situation up at all, and then make some simplistic and obscure claim that the EFL were carrying out the wishes of the other 71. I fail to see how that is relevant to the discussion or has anything to do with my post which you quoted.
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Of course it matters what DM thinks.. I would expect he has an influence within the club on how it votes within the EFL set up.?
Well don't hold your breath hoping for anything other than PPG IDM.
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And he’s still going....
Darragh MacAnthony tweet:
Some maths on putting a game on in an empty stadium (comments welcome)
Cost of game + fans -Stewards/Security/Match day staff for average crowd of 6k-£11k per game
Refs/Officials/Ambulance/medics - £3k per game
TV staff(iFollow) - £1k per game
£15K per normal home game cost
Without a Crowd:
Security/Police/Limited match day staff for stadium - £5k
Refs/Officials/Ambulance/Medics - £3k
TV staff (Ifollow)- £1k per game
£9k per home game in new siutation
5 home games left = £45k to host them
Away game costs for us usually -
£2.5k on away travel hotel and Bus overnight stay
£500 other expenses
4 away games left = £12k topped off say at £15k in total
£60k to play out 9 games for us as above, then below other costs would be Cost of testing estimated at £120k - £140k, so average it out at £130k
No TV refund estimated approx £75k
Net cost of £55k
£55k plus £60k to finish games= £115k
Take players off Furlough for 60 days - £2.5k per player (22 man squads) plus 5 backroom staff - £135k
So £135k plus £115k to finish games = £250k plus £50k to organize training ground & PPE necessary.
So £300k
How much income derived from Ifollow for match day fans, how much merchandise income created from feel good factor of fans having their team playing football again. How much in refunds negated through offering season ticket holders opportunity to watch remaining home games for free? How many sponsors on shirts cant ask for refund with season finished properly.
Let's all agree the real cost in finishing season is less then £250k max. Now add up how much clubs have saved last 2 and half months in no rates to pay on grounds, furlough money & so on. Real figure is couple hundred grand for football clubs to play football competitively as per their leagues. Lets all be honest, this isn't about cost to finish the season or health (football is back worldwide & UK Government told us to bring it back here safely), this is about does your club want football or not want football. Dont come at me with stupid comments. Come at me with fair balanced counter argument to above figures. Btw players costs outside of furlough wages wise already being paid by clubs. Players who contracts run out in June still have to be paid in July as per EFL rules 👍🏻
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Not sure about his maths there.
He is embarrassing himself, not for the first time, will all this carry on. As are his players sending out identical tweets akin to the Tories earlier today with the Cummings fiasco. That journalist we have derided on here before is also at it, crying of "injustice" and shams.
If the roles were reversed they would be begging for the season to be curtailed. It's so transparently all down to the fact they would miss out and are scared all that money spent has gone to waste.
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Not sure about his maths there.
He is embarrassing himself, not for the first time, will all this carry on. As are his players sending out identical tweets akin to the Tories earlier today with the Cummings fiasco. That journalist we have derided on here before is also at it, crying of "injustice" and shams.
If the roles were reversed they would be begging for the season to be curtailed. It's so transparently all down to the fact they would miss out and are scared all that money spent has gone to waste.
"Journalist" is a bit of a stretch RA, "Posh Puppet" more like!
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I wonder which hotels that his squad are looking to stay in.
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Even in the Championship there are a number of sides who will feel the cost of extending the season to a finish, Sheffield Wednesday, Derby County, Birmingham City, Hull City and others will feel the pinch having players out of contract on Mega bucks who they would not want to pay after their contract dates. Add to that the cost of putting games on with testing etc and no income from gate monies and their costs are far higher than the Posh chairman has published, and their debt is already mouthwatering.
It will be interesting to see what sort of teams a lot of clubs put out just to complete fixtures.
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If they have play offs hopefully they lose in the final
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Not sure about his maths there.
He is embarrassing himself, not for the first time, will all this carry on. As are his players sending out identical tweets akin to the Tories earlier today with the Cummings fiasco. That journalist we have derided on here before is also at it, crying of "injustice" and shams.
If the roles were reversed they would be begging for the season to be curtailed. It's so transparently all down to the fact they would miss out and are scared all that money spent has gone to waste.
RA would you honestly expect anything different coming out of there, a proper shithouse of a club
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To be fair they do have a better argument than Ipswich. Each clubs' fans have an idea of their honest chances to go up if the season continued.
Human nature dictates that if there is an opportunity to grasp whatever chance is available you would grab it.
I bet if JR was still chairman we would have heard about us needing to be in any mix.
I don't like the Peterborough chairman or that reporter but without playing another match they are probably the biggest loser.
Look at poor old Barrow as well. They have waited years for a chance to return to the league and that may be snatched away from them. They might never get the chance again.
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To be fair they do have a better argument than Ipswich. Each clubs' fans have an idea of their honest chances to go up if the season continued.
Human nature dictates that if there is an opportunity to grasp whatever chance is available you would grab it.
I bet if JR was still chairman we would have heard about us needing to be in any mix.
I don't like the Peterborough chairman or that reporter but without playing another match they are probably the biggest loser.
Look at poor old Barrow as well. They have waited years for a chance to return to the league and that may be snatched away from them. They might never get the chance again.
The difference with Barrow though, is there is a ready made vacancy as a replacement for Bury to make up the 92 again
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selby,
The Championship will resume, just like the EPL, and the funds from broadcasters will cover their costs.
That won't happen with Lg1 and 2 which is why it's sensible for those two divisions to hibernate for a while until things improve. If that means partial suppporter ownership, albeit through a government stake, then so be it.
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“Two positive cases at single club returned from 1014 tests across all 24 Championship sides“
Great results from the championship. Obviously it’s 2 too many but looking forward there might just be a possibility that Leeds can still screw promotion up.
*EDIT* both players from Hull City
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“Two positive cases at single club returned from 1014 tests across all 24 Championship sides“
Great results from the championship. Obviously it’s 2 too many but looking forward there might just be a possibility that Leeds can still screw promotion up.
Hull City
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Whilst I wouldn’t want anyone to get infected, the fact that some are, shows that the testing needed to get football back on must be robust and thorough.
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Whilst I wouldn’t want anyone to get infected, the fact that some are, shows that the testing needed to get football back on must be robust and thorough.
I agree as it’s not really happening at the minute . My question is how do you recognise someone who has been tested and are ok against those who turn up either still infected or not yet infected . Who should be aloud to go to watch a match and how do you acknowledge this in practice. Until the authorities say that its under-control with measures of track and trace in place , no one will allowed to go!!
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No one goes to watch..
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No one goes to watch..
[/quote : So do you buy a season ticket to stay at home ?
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No, you’re missing the point - the matches would be behind closed doors..
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No, you’re missing the point - the matches would be behind closed doors..
So they play for nothing and we watch for free?
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What are you on about.?
If the epl and championship resume, the players, officials, support staff etc all need to be tested.
There will be no spectators at the games this season if they are played.
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What are you on about.?
If the epl and championship resume, the players, officials, support staff etc all need to be tested.
There will be no spectators at the games this season if they are played.
Yes ...at the cost of to DRFC £400.000 so it’s a no! And it there is still lock downs at no one can attend so who pays the wages if buying season ticket means that you can’t watch anyway ?
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This part of the thread was about testing after Hull players tested positive.
The players being tested will be in the leagues likely to resume this season, ie the premier league and Championship.
The discussion is about this current season, not next, so ST purchases are not the issue.
It is possible we are talking at cross purposes here.
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This part of the thread was about testing after Hull players tested positive.
The players being tested will be in the leagues likely to resume this season, ie the premier league and Championship.
The discussion is about this current season, not next, so ST purchases are not the issue.
It is possible we are talking at cross purposes here.
Forget this season it’s OVER .. but if no one comes up with a solution for next it’s OVER as well !
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This part of the thread was about testing after Hull players tested positive.
The players being tested will be in the leagues likely to resume this season, ie the premier league and Championship.
The discussion is about this current season, not next, so ST purchases are not the issue.
It is possible we are talking at cross purposes here.
Forget this season it’s OVER .. but if no one comes up with a solution for next it’s OVER as well !
Really??
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This part of the thread was about testing after Hull players tested positive.
The players being tested will be in the leagues likely to resume this season, ie the premier league and Championship.
The discussion is about this current season, not next, so ST purchases are not the issue.
It is possible we are talking at cross purposes here.
Forget this season it’s OVER .. but if no one comes up with a solution for next it’s OVER as well !
Really??
If this season can’t accommodate crowds , what will a allow it to happen . A vaccine is 6-18months away and the government’s attitude to allowing everyone to restart integration of crowds is a long way off and clubs need this before making any money is possible .
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As this season can’t have spectators then league one clubs cannot afford to play behind closed doors. That is why the debate is about how to close off the season with ppg etc.
The premier league will almost certainly play out, behind closed doors, as they would lose more tv money by not playing at all.
It looks like championship will play too - but both will rely on robust testing protocols.
That’s it. The only league football this country will see this season is the premier league and possibly the championship.
As for next season, the logical thought would be to delay the start until a time when spectators can go.
I couldn’t guess when that may be however.
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Apparently 11 clubs want to finish the League One season now, nine want to play on and four are either undecided or have not made their position clear. Rovers are in the four. Of course it only needs one of the undecideds to move to finishing and it's over. The majority of Championship clubs want to play the season out (bcd, of course).
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Incidentally, has anyone seen a model that doesn't have us finishing 9th?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52689630
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It is a hard decision, the possibility of finishing the season seamed so far away just a short time ago when 6 and 8 hundred a day were reported to be losing their lives to the virus, and the continual threat at the moment is another rise in cases as we come out of lock down which could effect the coming season which would be fatal to many clubs according to reports.
Every football fan I would think would prefer to see the season finished some how if possible, and great if it can be achieved and all positional arguments resolved, and it is time for someone or the clubs themselves to take the lead for the sake of the game.
Lessons of governance and finances however must not be allowed to be brushed under the carpet because of the euphoria of the game restarting.
The opportunity to finally sort out the spivs and hangers on that do a disservice to the game itself and especially the paying public who support the game by creaming off the top must be banished from the game and rules put in place to govern the game and its finances.
If the season does restart, it will be the first time this season we will be able to pick a side with two recognised strikers up front, so it could prove interesting if we hit the ground running.
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This part of the thread was about testing after Hull players tested positive.
The players being tested will be in the leagues likely to resume this season, ie the premier league and Championship.
The discussion is about this current season, not next, so ST purchases are not the issue.
It is possible we are talking at cross purposes here.
Forget this season it’s OVER .. but if no one comes up with a solution for next it’s OVER as well !
Really??
If this season can’t accommodate crowds , what will a allow it to happen . A vaccine is 6-18months away and the government’s attitude to allowing everyone to restart integration of crowds is a long way off and clubs need this before making any money is possible .
Industries have a habit of re-inventing themselves, adapting where needed and football is no different.
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Apparently 11 clubs want to finish the League One season now, nine want to play on and four are either undecided or have not made their position clear. Rovers are in the four. Of course it only needs one of the undecideds to move to finishing and it's over. The majority of Championship clubs want to play the season out (bcd, of course).
Are those figures right TRB because they add up to 24 and we only have 23 clubs in L1.
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What came out yesterday was that 9 were in favour of playing on, 11 against and 3 undecided including ourselves. So the decision rests on the decision of the 3, if that report is true - and it was reported by multiple outlets including the DFP.
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The longer this drags on the bigger knock on effect for the next season.
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Draytonian, with the added costs of testing and recalling players and coaching staff from furlough and their added costs of wages, plus playing games in empty stadiums, for many of the clubs with absolutely nothing to play for I cannot see them voting it through.
The clubs that are keen in our league who are keen to resume are willing to take that chance because they are so far in the doo doo that promotion is their only way out.
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Those four who are in the top places AFTER PPG, let them play at St George’s Park on a Saturday or Sunday games being played after each other 5pm then 8pm and play the final the following week, sorted
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The ones who want to play on must be the ones with the most to lose except Rotherham and Coventry.
I shudder to think what predicament Ipswich, Sunderland and Peterborough will find themselves in if they play on and fail to achieve promotion. Perhaps they feel they have no choice with their current stretched finances.
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Is not the issue when this can happen and not if it should as nothing in the public about distancing has altered .
But even in league 1 finances are very varied and if Rovers were in a possible promotion slot like Peterborough or Sunderland or Portsmouth then it would be a tempting issue to throw our hat in the ring and ask for playoffs but we are likely to finish 9th under the points tally . Then it’s sit back time and watch others squirm at their dilemma 😂
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Those four who are in the top places AFTER PPG, let them play at St George’s Park on a Saturday or Sunday games being played after each other 5pm then 8pm and play the final the following week, sorted
Forgive my ignorance, but where's St George's Park?
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Those four who are in the top places AFTER PPG, let them play at St George’s Park on a Saturday or Sunday games being played after each other 5pm then 8pm and play the final the following week, sorted
Forgive my ignorance, but where's St George's Park?
It's the England training centre, just outside Burton upon Trent.
http://www.thefa.com/about-football-association/st-georges-park
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Is not the issue when this can happen and not if it should as nothing in the public about distancing has altered .
But even in league 1 finances are very varied and if Rovers were in a possible promotion slot like Peterborough or Sunderland or Portsmouth then it would be a tempting issue to throw our hat in the ring and ask for playoffs but we are likely to finish 9th under the points tally . Then it’s sit back time and watch others squirm at their dilemma 😂
It would be a poor attitude to favour one system when it plays in our favour but then say that the system is unfair or useless simply because we have no advantage. I would hope that we are above that.
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https://twitter.com/zoneefl/status/1266045246258937866?s=21
Don’t shoot the messenger but I’ve juat noticed this on Twitter. The saga continues
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https://twitter.com/zoneefl/status/1266045246258937866?s=21
Don’t shoot the messenger but I’ve juat noticed this on Twitter. The saga continues
That's my understanding. The vote will happen some time next week.
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https://twitter.com/zoneefl/status/1266045246258937866?s=21
Don’t shoot the messenger but I’ve juat noticed this on Twitter. The saga continues
Kin ell, this drags on and on.
Pathetic.
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Sky saying unweighted PPG and giving clubs until 2nd June to come up with alternative
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Sky saying unweighted PPG and giving clubs until 2nd June to come up with alternative
No, it's been delayed again.
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11996667/efl-league-one-and-league-two-proposal-set-for-june-8-vote
June 2nd being the deadline to propose anything
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11996667/efl-league-one-and-league-two-proposal-set-for-june-8-vote
June 2nd being the deadline to propose anything
That's slightly misleading. The clubs have had the 2 proposals to consider for a while now, it's just the vote that has been delayed. I doubt very much that any new proposals would surface, or be allowed to before June 2nd.
The timescales just don't allow for anything else now, we're at the point where clubs, including ours, need to be wrapping things up due to the considerable financial burdens that they are under. After this vote is taken an EGM has to be called to ratify the decisions being made. Time is now of the essence.
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I agree with you SM we need to close the curtains on this season and look at how next season can work
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They are having another meeting on 8th of June !!!!!!
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They are having another meeting on 8th of June !!!!!!
I'm afraid so, some clubs are just determined to make this an argument about themselves.
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Those four who are in the top places AFTER PPG, let them play at St George’s Park on a Saturday or Sunday games being played after each other 5pm then 8pm and play the final the following week, sorted
Forgive my ignorance, but where's St George's Park?
It's the England training centre, just outside Burton upon Trent.
http://www.thefa.com/about-football-association/st-georges-park
I went here for a day as part of a grassroots coaching event.
The facility is absolutely fantastic. I was blown away by it and what they have down there.
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They are having another meeting on 8th of June !!!!!!
I'm afraid so, some clubs are just determined to make this an argument about themselves.
I guess we could only imagine who that might be....
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One way to sort it is to promote the wonderful Peterborough United not to the championship but to the Premiership,in fact when ever they play anyone give them a four goal start and any any goal they do score counts double. Also let Daddies lickle soldier due all the substitutes, both teams .
That’s about fair isn’t it
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Those four who are in the top places AFTER PPG, let them play at St George’s Park on a Saturday or Sunday games being played after each other 5pm then 8pm and play the final the following week, sorted
Forgive my ignorance, but where's St George's Park?
It's the England training centre, just outside Burton upon Trent.
http://www.thefa.com/about-football-association/st-georges-park
I went here for a day as part of a grassroots coaching event.
The facility is absolutely fantastic. I was blown away by it and what they have down there.
My son was lucky enough to play and train there as part of the England Cerebral Palsy football talent process. An amazing facility and dreams made for him being able to experience it first hand
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They are having another meeting on 8th of June !!!!!!
I'm afraid so, some clubs are just determined to make this an argument about themselves.
What’s the default position if clubs can’t decide an outcome and time runs out.?
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In a way I don't blame the smaller clubs in the division playing this out.
It is the first time they have as much clout as the bigger clubs, their vote counts as much as the big boys, and it is the first time they have the same income as the big boys, next to or nothing at all, and without the costs of the big boys, who must be going absolutely spare.
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They are having another meeting on 8th of June !!!!!!
I'm afraid so, some clubs are just determined to make this an argument about themselves.
What’s the default position if clubs can’t decide an outcome and time runs out.?
The board would have to rule, although I don't think there's a specific clause for that in the regs!
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In a way I don't blame the smaller clubs in the division playing this out.
It is the first time they have as much clout as the bigger clubs, their vote counts as much as the big boys, and it is the first time they have the same income as the big boys, next to or nothing at all, and without the costs of the big boys, who must be going absolutely spare.
I'm sorry selby but none of that makes any sense at all.
The smaller clubs have no income, have had funds brought forward from next season to this to get them this far. Cashflow will dry up very quickly, and the smaller clubs will go unless clarity is brought to this. We then have to set about saving our own individual clubs.
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I accept all that SM, and nobody wants a resumption more than myself, I was highlighting the relative outgoings such as Sunderland Portsmouth and Peterborough have at the moment compared with the clubs that have to exist within their income and are run correctly.
I know everyone is suffering, but because some clubs suffer nearly all the time they may have the nous and experience to get through it. Two months ago some were tipped not to be with us now, and everybody was looking at clubs like Rochdale etc. while ignoring the position clubs with big wage outlays and already lots of debt were in.
A lot of bigger clubs Sheffield Wednesday, Derby, Sunderland, Charlton, Bolton, and Leeds to an extent have existed for a number of years by being passed from owner to owner who were willing to under-wright the debt they were already in, or go into receivership and rise up by skimming the debtors.
The EFL and FA have ignored or been culpable to the whole affair, standing aside and watching spivs, player power, and agents do exactly what they want to do.
To be honest, if things were not so serious I could quite enjoy watching whole lot fall to pieces. Football won't die, there will be a game when this is over, all the meetings are not about the game, they are for the status quo to remain in place with the same power blocks and useless administration dancing to their tune.
We have passed the point when the game was in every ones minds in the first few weeks because of doubt, confidence and greed has returned and club owners now only think of their own well being it has played out before our eyes, and any thought of a strong administration has once again been buried beneath threats of litigation and court cases.
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What an absolute farce. Football - or more specifically the EFL - is becoming a laughing stock. At this rate, they will still be poncing around at Christmas. The whole sorry, sad state of affairs is a joke. Delay after delay after delay. Just make a decision for heavens sake.
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What an absolute farce. Football - or more specifically the EFL - is becoming a laughing stock. At this rate, they will still be poncing around at Christmas. The whole sorry, sad state of affairs is a joke. Delay after delay after delay. Just make a decision for heavens sake.
Not first time though is it? Just look how they handled the Bolton fiasco.
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:that:
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SM, the bbc sport website is talking about L1 and L2 playoffs taking place before the Championship play offs.
I know that the L1 situation is dragging on a bit but I didn’t realise that L2 would be having play offs.
Is that right.
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Hound - after League Two voted to end their season, the EFL came out with one of their many statements and said that they wanted promotion, Play Offs and relegation to be adhered to in each league regardless of how they came to decide ending the season.
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Cheers RA.
I hadn’t seen that.
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It is not really what Talksport 2 reported Hound, but they seem to come up with a different outcome every day depending who the guest is in the studio and from what club.
They said there would be another meeting as said on this thread earlier and that no decision had been reached, I will only believe anything when it is announced officially myself.
Playing the playoffs as soon as possible would be the best outcome if they can get agreement who will take part in them, if they ever can that is, we have had to watch while different ways are discussed of doing that for the last month, and even on this forum there has been disagreement how teams should be judged to qualify, and we are not involved, or are we? I wouldn't like to guess.
RA, the clubs decide what to do don't they, I understood that is why originally each division was given autonomy to vote how they wanted to end the season, since then the EFL have said they want promotion and relegation fearing the two Championship top sides going to court, but when push comes to shove who has the say is up for debate, hence the recurring problems as far as I can see. There is nothing in the rules written down to cover the situation, the same as our spat with Bolton.
Every thing should be by a simple majority vote of 51% and in the past all divisions were lumped together. The Championship sides object to that and a level playing field with leagues 1 and 2 and the EFL let them get away with it as ever, so now they are left with three separate entities, with three different visions of how to end the season, and each division with clubs voting for what would benefit their own preferences.
Hence no chance of agreement.
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Hound - after League Two voted to end their season, the EFL came out with one of their many statements and said that they wanted promotion, Play Offs and relegation to be adhered to in each league regardless of how they came to decide ending the season.
Partly correct.
The options given to all 3 divisions were, a) complete the season or b) curtail the season and base final positions on ppg with promotion being settled by play off's. Straight forward relegation would take place. However consideration was given to not relegating from Lg2 to the national divisions. The vote took place for LG2 based on that premise. However its now been decided that consistency must remain through all 3 divisions. That's going to relegate Stevenage who are determined that its not going to happen.
The simple explanation is that the EFL regulations don't allow for a curtailment to the season, so any decisions taken will have to be drawn up under new regulations which will have to be decided at an EGM. What they then can't have is a different set of regulations depending on which team it is, the regulations will have to apply throughout the EFL which means that promotion and relegation will still happen for consistency.
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Or not at all.? Is that an option.?
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Or not at all.? Is that an option.?
Do you mean no promotion or relegation? It was an option, but the EFL would be fighting that in the courts forever.
Legal action is one thing that the EFL don't want. They have a £200m hole in their accounts and can't afford to battle it out.
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SM, i would suggest that a leadership with no power at all cannot give out options, realistically they are suggestions that the clubs can take on board, try and circumnavigate, or just try and push something through as the top club quorum tried with extended playoffs, which if it had got the support or even now gets the support will be the way it goes.
I appreciate that people like you put a lot of time and effort into trying to do your best for our club especially and football in general, and I thank you for your effort and time spent doing so. But the people like yourself with the best interests of the game at heart are a minority, and it is being run at the top of the game by spivs, money grabbing thieves, and it has got to be said people with no common sense whatsoever who exist in lala land and are being outmanoeuvred at every turn.
Make no mistake, non at the top of the game are remotely interested in the football league from the Championship down, the London clubs would love to draw supporters from Peterborough and Colchester, the Manchester clubs would love to draw supporters from Doncaster and Rotherham every week they do to a point now, get rid of a meaningful town side and that is another 6000 possible paying supporters within travelling distance to feed off, they envy the Spanish German and Italian systems that are already structured that way.
Two month ago all sorts of sh*te was being bandied about helping the smaller clubs out, well where is it? but the multi million pound transfers are being put together and the spivs and agents will be getting their share while hundred year old clubs have a chance to be going under.
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Or not at all.? Is that an option.?
Do you mean no promotion or relegation? It was an option, but the EFL would be fighting that in the courts forever.
Legal action is one thing that the EFL don't want. They have a £200m hole in their accounts and can't afford to battle it out.
Would they? Surely if you can't complete a season the default position is null-and-void? It's not many people's favoured option (I think only Southend have publicly come out in favour) but I think you might struggle to prove that it unlawful.
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Yes, I meant no promotion nor relegation.
Although vicariously that does mean null and void, perhaps with the exception of awarding the title, and the appropriate distribution of positional prize money.?
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11996667/efl-league-one-and-league-two-proposal-set-for-june-8-vote
June 2nd being the deadline to propose anything
That's slightly misleading. The clubs have had the 2 proposals to consider for a while now, it's just the vote that has been delayed. I doubt very much that any new proposals would surface, or be allowed to before June 2nd.
The timescales just don't allow for anything else now, we're at the point where clubs, including ours, need to be wrapping things up due to the considerable financial burdens that they are under. After this vote is taken an EGM has to be called to ratify the decisions being made. Time is now of the essence.
SM .. are the 2 proposals a) playing on b) just having the playoffs?
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https://www.skysports.com/football/news/11095/11996667/efl-league-one-and-league-two-proposal-set-for-june-8-vote
June 2nd being the deadline to propose anything
That's slightly misleading. The clubs have had the 2 proposals to consider for a while now, it's just the vote that has been delayed. I doubt very much that any new proposals would surface, or be allowed to before June 2nd.
The timescales just don't allow for anything else now, we're at the point where clubs, including ours, need to be wrapping things up due to the considerable financial burdens that they are under. After this vote is taken an EGM has to be called to ratify the decisions being made. Time is now of the essence.
SM .. are the 2 proposals a) playing on b) just having the playoffs?
Yes
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Yes, I meant no promotion nor relegation.
Although vicariously that does mean null and void, perhaps with the exception of awarding the title, and the appropriate distribution of positional prize money.?
But there’s no regulation that covers that either, so a majority of clubs would need to vote for that option and that’s not happening.
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Or not at all.? Is that an option.?
Do you mean no promotion or relegation? It was an option, but the EFL would be fighting that in the courts forever.
Legal action is one thing that the EFL don't want. They have a £200m hole in their accounts and can't afford to battle it out.
Would they? Surely if you can't complete a season the default position is null-and-void? It's not many people's favoured option (I think only Southend have publicly come out in favour) but I think you might struggle to prove that it unlawful.
There is no regulation that covers a season ending like this. So even if the majority of clubs wanted this they would still have to create the regulation through an EGM.
Believe me when I say certain clubs are already threatening legal action to push their agenda. Even Stevenage who face relegation from the EFL are talking in this fashion.
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I listened to a programme on talksport 2 on the EFL specifically this afternoon, the reason the decision has been put back to June the 8th is they are hoping that the Premiership will have come to a definite decision about promotion and relegation if they complete their season at their meeting earlier on next week. So really they are hanging on their coat tails and dare not have no relegation in the EFL divisions and give the Premiership an excuse.
The feeling is that an exception will be no relegation from division 2 only saving Stevenage and using Bury as the notional relegated club.
The vote to curtail division 1 and have playoffs with points per game or play the season out is roughly 15 to 8 clubs in favour of ending the season due to cost and the expense of extending playing contracts.
The general feeling was that contracted players would be replaced in most cases by younger players on loan from premiership sides with the parent premiership club paying most if not all of the loanee's wages.
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Braford City announced this week that all loan players had returned to their parent clubs and all players out of contract at the end of the season would be released.
I wonder how many times that will be repeated.
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Braford City announced this week that all loan players had returned to their parent clubs and all players out of contract at the end of the season would be released.
I wonder how many times that will be repeated.
Can you say that again please mate.
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Is that an echo or have you been eating radishes hound?😉
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Braford City announced this week that all loan players had returned to their parent clubs and all players out of contract at the end of the season would be released.
I wonder how many times that will be repeated.
Being serious now idler, I fear it will become a commonplace scenario.
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But hasn’t league 2 voted to end their season anyway.?
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But hasn’t league 2 voted to end their season anyway.?
I asked that further back in the thread, post 411.
RA responded in post 412 then SM updated that in post 415.
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As far as I can tell, PPG wouldn’t bring Bradford into the play offs, so I assume this means their season is effectively over.?
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Yes they have voted, but the vote I don't think has been ratified and they have to vote first to change the rules when agreement has been reached with all three divisions in agreement as to how the season ends, so that the EFL will be covered as to teams taking them to court.
Basically they are making it up as they go along because nothing is in place to cover the situation, so the first vote will to cover themselves (the EFL) so that they cannot be taken to court.
Then the vote will take place to instigate any propositions. But as I posted earlier they first want to see which way the premiership go with promotion and relegation if their season is not concluded if possible according to a reporter on Talksport following the subject.
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Yes they have voted, but the vote I don't think has been ratified and they have to vote first to change the rules when agreement has been reached with all three divisions in agreement as to how the season ends, so that the EFL will be covered as to teams taking them to court.
Basically they are making it up as they go along because nothing is in place to cover the situation, so the first vote will to cover themselves (the EFL) so that they cannot be taken to court.
Then the vote will take place to instigate any propositions. But as I posted earlier they first want to see which way the premiership go with promotion and relegation if their season is not concluded if possible according to a reporter on Talksport following the subject.
I don’t hold a lot of love for the EFL but to be fair to them there is no way that they could have had anything in place to cover the situation we are in.
If they are making it up as they go along then that is because no one could ever have envisaged this virus coming and causing all the problems it has done.
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Agree with the present situation Hound, But when you look at football leagues governance beneath the EFL, they at least had committee's in place with the power and respect of their clubs to make decisions.
To have a league run with less written down rules to cover situations such as ours with Bolton when the Selby youth league for U6's have, shows a lack of foresight to start with, and certainly a lack of the will to impose sentences for wrong doing and a lack of governance as far as who are fit and proper persons to run football clubs,and supervise FFP which are in their remit.
If they had done just that part of their job Bury would still have a football Club and half the clubs in the Championship would not be in the doo doo they are now.
They are and have been for quite a few years a shameful shambles and their record stands out to be shot at.
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Well said Selby. I always believed they were worse than useless and this shambles is additional proof. Utterly inept!
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Just been announced that the Championship is starting on the 20th June..( provisionally)
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Would have to say if one league is starting why not others?
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Money.. there’s more of it around in the championship and 3 teams can win the richest prize in football..
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I thought that regulations had to be consistent throughout the leagues - surely if the Championship continue this sets the precedent for Leagues One and Two. Personally I think that this season just needs wrapping up PDQ
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Money.. there’s more of it around in the championship and 3 teams can win the richest prize in football..
Yes, and this tells us why too.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52866678
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Incidentally, has anyone seen a model that doesn't have us finishing 9th?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52689630
Don’t know why but I just thought about this challenge :)
If we put the teams in alphabetical order then we would be 8th :thumbsup:
But put if we put Bury back in then we are still 9th :headbang:
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Yet another proposal..
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/new-proposal-how-decide-season-would-hand-doncaster-rovers-play-place-how-would-it-work-2871720
Try getting your head round thatl
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I thought about reading all of that but once you realise all this silly method does is keep Tranmere, the side Palios owns, up in place of Wimbledon, it all makes perfect sense.
Has anyone devised a "method" that sees Rovers crowned as champions yet?
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I thought about reading all of that but once you realise all this silly method does is keep Tranmere, the side Palios owns, up in place of Wimbledon, it all makes perfect sense.
Has anyone devised a "method" that sees Rovers crowned as champions yet?
Exactly. He must be sniffing glue or something to come up with a convoluted method using average PPG over 3 years! Ha Ha.
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Yet another proposal..
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/new-proposal-how-decide-season-would-hand-doncaster-rovers-play-place-how-would-it-work-2871720
Try getting your head round thatl
Hmmmm
Funnily enough, from a purely statistical standpoint I can actually see the merits in this, certainly if more years (at least 10) are considered.
However...... IMHO Football is not the place to introduce such complicated measures. We are in Duckworth-Lewis territory here, and cricket is statistically a far more complicated game to start with. IMHO the EFL needs to keep it simple and understandable. Also this is almost certain to give leagues of differing numbers of teams next season meaning further strange numbers of teams relegated and/or promoted for at least another season, if not more.
It is all very well, essential even, to perform detailed mathematical error analysis for important issues (I was once involved in a detailed analysis on error margins for how thick and strong the walls of a nuclear fusion reactor should be), but IMHO the EFL solution needs to be simple, understandable, and not have effects lasting multiple seasons.
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The only teams talking about this appear to be the ones threatened with relegation or the ones fearing they won't be in the playoffs
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The only teams talking about this appear to be the ones threatened with relegation or the ones fearing they won't be in the playoffs
Absolutely, it makes a lot less difference to those clubs.
If we were in the relegation or promotion areas, the club would either be acting as "selfishly" as others currently appear to be doing, or our supporter would be slating the club for not trying to work in the best interests of the club.
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Latest from DFP
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-efl-set-fresh-date-clubs-meeting-decide-how-season-will-be-resolved-2873874
Let's hope they come to a decision. Its dragged on far too long now.
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Latest from DFP
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-efl-set-fresh-date-clubs-meeting-decide-how-season-will-be-resolved-2873874
Let's hope they come to a decision. Its dragged on far too long now.
From reading that article it appears that there are still a number of proposals to be considered and then voted on.
It wouldn’t surprise me if no decision is reached on the 9th June.
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Last week it was announced that there was a cut off date for proposals to be put on the table with a final vote next week to change regulations as required.
I’d have thought they would have to be binding across the whole EFL personally, not sure where it leaves things with Championship playing on
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Well most of my fears and predictions about how it would pan out for smaller clubs when this matter first reared its head look as though those who thought the smaller clubs would be looked after and a new fairer world would appear will be disappointed.
In a report this morning although the government made it a prerequisite of starting the season the premiership should help the wider football family, things have gone backwards with them planning to cut next seasons solidarity payments by 25% and keeping their present
meagre £110 million pound payment the same, not even the price of a couple of foreign players. Of which we get the £675,000 pounds as a first division club roughly two weeks wages of Mesut Ozil and we have to doff our cap.
If the government do not step in I am afraid quite a few good and in most cases well run important community clubs will go to the wall.
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selby,
Where are you getting this information from? As far as I'm aware none of this has been discussed or agreed, it's all hypothetical.
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SM an article in the paper this morning back page news, on line last night from 11 pm. The daily Mail.
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Hang on a minute. Have you really just admitted to reading the Daily Mail :suicide:
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Only for it's unbiased opinion.
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SM an article in the paper this morning back page news, on line last night from 11 pm. The daily Mail.
I've just read that. There's nothing new in there, its just a rehashed story claiming to be an exclusive.
Most of the article just reiterates what I've been saying for the last few months, that if the EPL didn't resume the 2019/20 season they would have to pay the broadcasters back over a £1b. But that's now old news as they have agreed on a refund of £330m because the season is continuing.
The 25% figure was a guestimate based on the EPL losing that £1b. That's off the table now.
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SM, are you confident the big clubs will help out at our level, or will it take an higher entity like the government to stop clubs at our level being shafted?
I hope not, but fear the latter is the more likely, just my feeling of the people involved, and their record in the past. On this occasion I hope I am wrong.
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SM, are you confident the big clubs will help out at our level, or will it take an higher entity like the government to stop clubs at our level being shafted?
I hope not, but fear the latter is the more likely, just my feeling of the people involved, and their record in the past. On this occasion I hope I am wrong.
Confident? No, never. But I do think, that their admission they have to do more will carry some weight.
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https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/little-support-proposal-would-hand-doncaster-rovers-league-one-play-place-2876117
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Only for it's unbiased opinion.
:laugh::laugh:
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I'm intrigued by the idea of not needing solidarity payments. The top level has always used it as a stick to beat us with and take bits from us. Taking away our need for that money reduces what the Premier League can blackmail us with.
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The whole situation is a complete farce;
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jun/08/league-one-row-breaks-out-as-teams-get-tested-and-train-before-key-vote
Everybody jockeying for advantage...pathetic!
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If those clubs who are likely to be involved in the play offs, should the vote go that way, want to get a head start in preparation, that's up to them.
Meanwhile... I would take the headline mentioning us specifically with a pinch of salt. Not sure MacAnthony mentioned us by name...
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/rival-league-one-chairman-promises-vengeance-against-doncaster-rovers-and-rest-league-one-next-season-1920-campaign-curtailed-2877877
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Like you said DBR I don’t think he mentioned us by name but
He is right about the EFL they are weak when comes to decision making look at the Bolton fiasco. There will be clubs next season with weakened squads because finances will play a big part. So some clubs in league 1 having to play behind closed doors in September will be hard.
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But isn’t it the EFL clubs that make the decisions by voting.?
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That’s the problem, IDM.
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I was told this afternoon that our owners are in favour of playing out the season IF we can be involved in the play offs.
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But isn’t it the EFL clubs that make the decisions by voting.?
That’s the problem each club will have its own agenda to suit their needs. It needs the EFL to lead not to make decisions by committee.
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I was told this afternoon that our owners are in favour of playing out the season IF we can be involved in the play offs.
I'm not against the Tranmere idea which does allow us into the play offs but minus Tranmere getting away without relegation. Maybe Tranmere take part in League Two play offs?
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But isn’t it the EFL clubs that make the decisions by voting.?
That’s the problem each club will have its own agenda to suit their needs. It needs the EFL to lead not to make decisions by committee.
The EFL is a members organisation, you can't possibly have a board. or senior executive group, imposing themselves on the members.
Having said that, there's a serious lack of leadership even within the members organisation.
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I was told this afternoon that our owners are in favour of playing out the season IF we can be involved in the play offs.
It would be far more sensible to not repeat such wild and thoughtless speculation on a board such as this. If we can guarantee one thing about our current ownership they will take the sensible course required to steer this club in as stable a position as possible. To suddenly abandon that ethos and throw hundreds of thousands of £'s at a relatively futile attempt at scrambling out of this division, and sacrificing countless jobs along the way is beyond comprehension.
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But isn’t it the EFL clubs that make the decisions by voting.?
That’s the problem each club will have its own agenda to suit their needs. It needs the EFL to lead not to make decisions by committee.
The EFL is a members organisation, you can't possibly have a board. or senior executive group, imposing themselves on the members.
Having said that, there's a serious lack of leadership even within the members organisation.
Genuine question here SM, what do you think is a good way to sort this clear leadership problem? The way this has dragged on and become a bit of a slanging match between certain club owners has been frustrating and I feel there surely must be a way forward to operate better as an organisation in future.
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I was told this afternoon that our owners are in favour of playing out the season IF we can be involved in the play offs.
It would be far more sensible to not repeat such wild and thoughtless speculation on a board such as this. If we can guarantee one thing about our current ownership they will take the sensible course required to steer this club in as stable a position as possible. To suddenly abandon that ethos and throw hundreds of thousands of £'s at a relatively futile attempt at scrambling out of this division, and sacrificing countless jobs along the way is beyond comprehension.
SM, I wasn’t casting aspersions about the club or the board.
I am well aware of the implications involved, including costs, should we resume playing the season out.
In my opinion it would NOT be a good move.
However, my post was simply a comment based on what I was told yesterday by a good source who is in football and had no reason to tell me a fib.
We were discussing the L1 situation and I mentioned that I had read that DM has been quoted as saying he is in favour of ending the season straight away.
At that point my friend said that he had spoken to DM in the last few days and from their conversation he got the impression that the board wanted to be involved in play offs if it was possible.
Remember, this is not me suggesting this.
I am merely making a comment on the forum which might interest some posters.
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Sorry hound, but I don't think your source is a good one.
Is it the same source who told you that a LG2 club has been given the nod to expect a mid-september start to next season? That again has never been discussed at an EFL level, they can't even decide how to finish this one!
Whilst ever our club is not publicly stating their preference then I'm sure speculation is rife, but it's purely that. To resume the season we would have to take all staff off furlough, get the players back training, and allow for extensive testing of Covid-19. All that will cost the best part of £0.5m, at a time when we have no income. It's not happening.
At least we should know sometime today on the broad outline, the exact details may take a few days.
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Who will be representing the club at this meeting? Will it be Gavin?
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Sorry hound, but I don't think your source is a good one.
Is it the same source who told you that a LG2 club has been given the nod to expect a mid-september start to next season? That again has never been discussed at an EFL level, they can't even decide how to finish this one!
Whilst ever our club is not publicly stating their preference then I'm sure speculation is rife, but it's purely that. To resume the season we would have to take all staff off furlough, get the players back training, and allow for extensive testing of Covid-19. All that will cost the best part of £0.5m, at a time when we have no income. It's not happening.
At least we should know sometime today on the broad outline, the exact details may take a few days.
.....and for all the reasons that you have set out I think it would be a bad idea.
I said as much myself not long ago.
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Who will be representing the club at this meeting? Will it be Gavin?
Yes it is.
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Ben Fisher Gaurdian Sport
@benfisherj
Sounds as though clubs have voted to go with the EFL board's framework of four-team play-offs and promotion/relegation. This afternoon clubs will vote, as divisions, on whether to curtail or continue the season.
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On DROS now too
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There is going to be a meltdown in Peterborough
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Darragh MacAnthony is at it again. Next season will now be called "operation vengeance" Feels very hard done by, bless him. I wonder if Posh were in the top 2 if he would be complaining?
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They are slightly hard done by though. His team have played a higher standard of opponent so far in the second half of the season than a couple of the teams in the play offs.
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They are not good enough. We are not good enough. Difference is that we know this and he refuses to accept this.
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Unweighted points per game is not fair but the decision as been made if games are not played. So it’s down to voting now I believe at least 15 clubs will vote to curtail the season.
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Just out of interest
Is it a open ballot ie is your vote seen by other clubs?
Or is your vote confidential to your representative?
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The way I read this, is that the clubs have voted on how to curtail or finish a season early, ie enabled a rule to allow for such a situation.
They now (I think) need to choose to implement that for this season, against playing on.
I can’t see a majority voting to play on simply due to the cost implications.
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I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but I'm with McAnthony.
A system that determines that Wycombe should be placed in the play-offs and Peterborough not, with all the information we have at our disposal, is a very, very poor one.
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In a way it'd be fairer to go based on everyone playing each other once.
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I never thought I'd hear myself say this, but I'm with McAnthony.
A system that determines that Wycombe should be placed in the play-offs and Peterborough not, with all the information we have at our disposal, is a very, very poor one.
I’m not in favour of any method which tries to predict results. But my opinion counts for nowt with the EFL.
Now that the how to curtail a season has been decided, do we think that for future seasons there will be more clubs going balls out to win more games sooner.?
Of course, everyone tries to win as much and whenever they can, but do we think teams and managers will take more risks to get a higher ppg rate ASAP.?
Mind you, we may never face such a situation again.?
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Thing is, the unweighted PPG effectively DOES predict future results. It implicitly assumes that performance to the end of the season would be identical to the average, unweighted performance from August to March.
That is about as bad a method as you could possibly use.
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Thing is, the unweighted PPG effectively DOES predict future results. It implicitly assumes that performance to the end of the season would be identical to the average, unweighted performance from August to March.
That is about as bad a method as you could possibly use.
The only good method is playing but the clubs can't afford to do that ergo PPG is the only game in town!
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Well, if McAnthony thinks he can buy his way out of the division he wants to take a close look at Sunderland.
The one thing he has in his favour is his manager, but only as far as spending his money for him.
Them six points we took off them are getting sweeter by the minute.
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LEAGUE TWO SEASON ENDED
bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52705124
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There's many ways to work this including allowing a margin or error that would then add other teams to the mix - and could even mean a one off game for "automatic" promotion places. It wouldn't create many extra games, but the black and white approach is inevitable.
No need either for home and away semis, can have it at a neutral venue or the higher placed club's ground to speed up the process.
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LEAGUE ONE SEASON ENDED
COVENTRY CHAMPIONS
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LEAGUE ONE SEASON ENDED
COVENTRY CHAMPIONS
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52705124
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So now we know our season has officially ended, when might we know who has been released and who we want to keep?
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I would have had a mini league to decide 2nd and 3rd from the top 8 or 9.
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No point going round in circles now, it's done. We move on. A season for the history books and plenty of quiz questions but, there is still a bigger matter that needs sorting first.
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I would hope over the lockdown a plan was made for all eventuality’s and the relevant plan is now in operation to give us the best chance of putting a squad together for next season
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Shouldn't the headline for this thread be changed to 'It is now'.
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What a crying shame that so many sports have been lost in 2020.A year that we will never , for so many reasons forget. I hope that the fallout will not have a lasting effect on future seasons but it’s hard to imagine how I can’t . RTiD.
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So when is next season likely to start?
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September but not sure what year :chair:
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IMHO that was the best, fairest and most practicable way to end the season given the circumstances. Not ideal but no system would be.
And I think we can now reflect on a creditable 9th-place finish for DM and our squad, given the very challenging start we had.
I can't begin to imagine what next season will look like.
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Has it been announced the 4 clubs who wanted to play on?
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IMHO that was the best, fairest and most practicable way to end the season given the circumstances. Not ideal but no system would be.
And I think we can now reflect on a creditable 9th-place finish for DM and our squad, given the very challenging start we had.
I can't begin to imagine what next season will look like.
Mash-up of Threads and Jossy's Giants at a guess.
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On. Jolly note, never has 6 points against Peterborough tasted sweeter, and f**k you Bolton, got what you deserved 😂😂😂😂
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All we need now is a salary cap, and then it's bring it on Sunderland, Peterborough and the rest of the big spenders.
Let's see what they're like on an even playing field.
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All we need now is a salary cap, and then it's bring it on Sunderland, Peterborough and the rest of the big spenders.
Let's see what they're like on an even playing field.
Sunderland will lose their Parachute Payment from now, the will have to be more frugal from now on 😀😀😀
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But isn’t it the EFL clubs that make the decisions by voting.?
That’s the problem each club will have its own agenda to suit their needs. It needs the EFL to lead not to make decisions by committee.
The EFL is a members organisation, you can't possibly have a board. or senior executive group, imposing themselves on the members.
Having said that, there's a serious lack of leadership even within the members organisation.
Genuine question here SM, what do you think is a good way to sort this clear leadership problem? The way this has dragged on and become a bit of a slanging match between certain club owners has been frustrating and I feel there surely must be a way forward to operate better as an organisation in future.
It's been allowed to fester like this because there has never been any need for any clear rules surrounding situations like this, much the same with the Bolton fiasco as that situation hadn't arisen before either.
I think the obvious answer is that the FA should step up and be the national association that it claims to be. For some years now they've adopted, and admitted as such, a hands off approach to both the EPL and the EFL. That needs to change.
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Has it been announced the 4 clubs who wanted to play on?
First it had to be 5. Peterborough, Tranmere, Sunderland, Ipswich and one of three Bolton, Us or Gills.
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All we need now is a salary cap, and then it's bring it on Sunderland, Peterborough and the rest of the big spenders.
Let's see what they're like on an even playing field.
Sunderland will lose their Parachute Payment from now, the will have to be more frugal from now on 😀😀😀
They're in deep doo doo, and are at war with their own fans currently. Up for sale, a temporary CEO (of sorts) and no idea how to get out of this mess.
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Statement from DRFC;
https://www.doncasterroversfc.co.uk/news/2020/june/doncaster-rovers-statement-following-season-curtailment/
Doncaster Rovers fully understand the decision made by EFL Sky Bet League One clubs to curtail the remaining fixtures of the League One season. The health of all individuals associated with the football club - fans, players and staff alike - is of paramount importance. We respect the decision made collectively by League One clubs and welcome the clarity that has now been provided following the vote.
Since the season was paused back in March, the board of directors have been working with senior staff to plan for every eventuality including this one.
In May, the club hosted a supporters’ board meeting with members of the Supporters Club, Viking Supporters Cooperative and independent fans with the intent of ensuring we can provide suitable options for those who have purchased tickets but without risking the survival of the club during this crisis.
With clarity now provided following the EFL’s announcement, we will now start the process of communicating with all those affected by the news including Silver Members, match package holders and those who have purchased home or away match tickets to cancelled games. Our objectives are to ensure all supporters feel valued and have suitable compensation options available to them and that we all have a club to support beyond the COVID-19 pandemic.
We will release details of those plans next week. In the meantime everyone at the club would like to thank supporters for your patience and support in these unprecedented times.
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Now now Filo, no need to be like that. You’re right of course that we got what we deserved and been relegated though in fairness we’ve known that for some time. Div 4 for the second time in our history then but I’m sure like last time we’ll be straight back up to face you the year after. Assuming of course you stay up? I think Wycombe came out of this best because I’m not sure on their form they’d have actually made the play offs. Anyway we can now both start planning for next season, assuming there is one, so I suppose how many changes you make depends on finance. With potentially no gate income can Donny survive? I see lots of clubs struggling and some going to the wall so let’s hope you’re not one of them? Some Wanderers fans might see it as Karma for all the insults you’ve given us but I’d rather we settle it on the field next time we play you. Anyway good luck to you and let’s hope we’re both up and running next year.
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It was only 4 as one didn’t or couldn’t vote according to Liam Hoden.
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It was only 4 as one didn’t or couldn’t vote according to Liam Hoden.
Bolton were concerned their rep might not be able to raise their hand, so didn't turn up.
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It was only 4 as one didn’t or couldn’t vote according to Liam Hoden.
It was 18-3 in favour of ending, with one abstention.
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It was only 4 as one didn’t or couldn’t vote according to Liam Hoden.
It was 18-3 in favour of ending, with one abstention.
I’d like to think we were the ones that abstained, as we then couldn’t be accused of voting in our own interests should the vote have gone in favour of the option that swa is in the play offs
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Who were the 3 SM?
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Now now Filo, no need to be like that. You’re right of course that we got what we deserved and been relegated though in fairness we’ve known that for some time. Div 4 for the second time in our history then but I’m sure like last time we’ll be straight back up to face you the year after. Assuming of course you stay up? I think Wycombe came out of this best because I’m not sure on their form they’d have actually made the play offs. Anyway we can now both start planning for next season, assuming there is one, so I suppose how many changes you make depends on finance. With potentially no gate income can Donny survive? I see lots of clubs struggling and some going to the wall so let’s hope you’re not one of them? Some Wanderers fans might see it as Karma for all the insults you’ve given us but I’d rather we settle it on the field next time we play you. Anyway good luck to you and let’s hope we’re both up and running next year.
Begging for a nibble.
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If they bring a salary cap Sunderland will really be in the mire, not only losing out the parachute payments but some of their players will be on big money and longer than normal contracts
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Here's the final table;
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Who were the 3 SM?
I don't think I've seen that in print anywhere, but I'd hazard a guess at Peterborough, Sunderland and Tranmere.
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It was only 4 as one didn’t or couldn’t vote according to Liam Hoden.
Bolton were concerned their rep might not be able to raise their hand, so didn't turn up.
Or they were considered to be underage without ID
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This was Nate Silver's take (he made his name developing prediction approaches for betting on US sports events).
This looks a more sensible outcome than the one we have ended up with. But in the big scheme of things, it's not that important.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/league-one/
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Anyone bleating on about whether the way the decision to end the season is just, needs to get over it.
All along we knew that whatever decision was to be taken that some people would be happy and others wouldn’t.
You can’t always get what you want.
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This was Nate Silver's take (he made his name developing prediction approaches for betting on US sports events).
This looks a more sensible outcome than the one we have ended up with. But in the big scheme of things, it's not that important.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/soccer-predictions/league-one/
BST, bad as it is, I always expected PPG to be the chosen way. When it comes down to it, I reckon PPG was the most popular “f**k it, let’s go with that” method when all the arguments about other systems were never going to be settled.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I think the obvious answer is that the FA should step up and be the national association that it claims to be. For some years now they've adopted, and admitted as such, a hands off approach to both the EPL and the EFL. That needs to change.
Completely agree with this SM, and was something we touched on, on the latest fanzine podcast. Once you leave things open to a vote you inevitably get clubs voting in their own interests and that drags on as we've seen.
I compared it to the situation in Wales, where the FA of Wales has that authority so suspended all football (from top flight to Sunday league and juniors) the moment lockdown restrictions were announced, and then when it was clear that lockdown would go on for some time, announced the end of the season and how final standings would be calculated.
Obviously there's more money and broadcast interests in the English pyramid, but still shows how an FA with authority can take early decisions which help its clubs know where they stand, and leaves them able to plan more clearly for their future rather than having to juggle multiple scenarios.
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Think we need a further round of FA reform before we can trust them with these decisions. Not sure the presence of representatives from the private schools football body and Oxford and Cambridge universities gives the FA Council the air of professionalism and credibility required in 2020.
Pleasing though to see three representatives from the traditional Yorkshire Ridings. That can stay.
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On. Jolly note, never has 6 points against Peterborough tasted sweeter, and f**k you Bolton, got what you deserved 😂😂😂😂
Six points off the Posh next season will be even more sweeter.!
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I think the obvious answer is that the FA should step up and be the national association that it claims to be. For some years now they've adopted, and admitted as such, a hands off approach to both the EPL and the EFL. That needs to change.
Completely agree with this SM, and was something we touched on, on the latest fanzine podcast. Once you leave things open to a vote you inevitably get clubs voting in their own interests and that drags on as we've seen.
I compared it to the situation in Wales, where the FA of Wales has that authority so suspended all football (from top flight to Sunday league and juniors) the moment lockdown restrictions were announced, and then when it was clear that lockdown would go on for some time, announced the end of the season and how final standings would be calculated.
Obviously there's more money and broadcast interests in the English pyramid, but still shows how an FA with authority can take early decisions which help its clubs know where they stand, and leaves them able to plan more clearly for their future rather than having to juggle multiple scenarios.
The problem is the FA created (encouraged) the premier league to break away from the football league thereby producing the disparity between the league's
Not sure I'd trust the FA with my cat
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I think the obvious answer is that the FA should step up and be the national association that it claims to be. For some years now they've adopted, and admitted as such, a hands off approach to both the EPL and the EFL. That needs to change.
Completely agree with this SM, and was something we touched on, on the latest fanzine podcast. Once you leave things open to a vote you inevitably get clubs voting in their own interests and that drags on as we've seen.
I compared it to the situation in Wales, where the FA of Wales has that authority so suspended all football (from top flight to Sunday league and juniors) the moment lockdown restrictions were announced, and then when it was clear that lockdown would go on for some time, announced the end of the season and how final standings would be calculated.
Obviously there's more money and broadcast interests in the English pyramid, but still shows how an FA with authority can take early decisions which help its clubs know where they stand, and leaves them able to plan more clearly for their future rather than having to juggle multiple scenarios.
The problem is the FA created (encouraged) the premier league to break away from the football league thereby producing the disparity between the league's
Not sure I'd trust the FA with my cat
I wouldn’t trust them with FA.
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It was only 4 as one didn’t or couldn’t vote according to Liam Hoden.
It was 18-3 in favour of ending, with one abstention.
I’d like to think we were the ones that abstained, as we then couldn’t be accused of voting in our own interests should the vote have gone in favour of the option that swa is in the play offs
That was Southend.
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Why are clubs celebrating being promoted in this fashion?
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Why are clubs celebrating being promoted in this fashion?
My thoughts as well, they should be more humble in my opinion
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Definitely not a time for celebrating as such and totally agree about being humble.
Then again, some people were quick enough to forget about staying home and saving lives.
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Apart from supporters and owners of League one and League two clubs nobody else is bothered. It’s all about the premier league. Money should been made available to allow clubs to continue. How many millions will the premier league give the three relegated clubs in parachute payments. Some of the money could have seen league one and two clubs complete the season without putting the club in financial problems or even administration. The FA are not bothered as long as the premier league continues and Sky and BT can show all the games. Games in September behind closed doors will cause more financial problems and clubs may go under. Football in league one and league two need fans coming to games to pay the bills.
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The premier league has continued for financial reasons. It would have cost a lot more in TV money losses not to continue, than carrying on.
The EPL will have less money so are really not going to share it any more than they would before.
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This season 7 clubs have benefited by £250 million pound in parachute payments from the premier league. One being Sunderland to the tune of about £15m. Again next season there will be about the same number of clubs having payments given to them. If that money was shared between all League one and two clubs it would be £5 million each. So money is there if the premier league had the will.
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There is still an obscene amount of money involved with the EPL, just a big chunk less of it..
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But there won't be as much thrown at them from sponsors, TV companies etc. Once again though, the only sector that might carry on as if nothing's happened is the betting market. I expect the EPL and clubs will continue to prostitute themselves. In desperate times, I can foresee more betting scams potentially involving players/officials etc unless the authorities get prepared!
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How can £15M to Sunderland be fair to other league 1 clubs? These parachute payments are a joke and it’s part and parcel of what is wrong with football in this country.
We need some radical thinking and action if we are to progress as a league system, otherwise there will be no long term futures for many lower league Clubs.
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How can £15M to Sunderland be fair to other league 1 clubs? These parachute payments are a joke and it’s part and parcel of what is wrong with football in this country.
We need some radical thinking and action if we are to progress as a league system, otherwise there will be no long term futures for many lower league Clubs.
I think most sensible football fans would agree. It's abhorrent and many were uncomfortable with it from the outset. As times moved on and the payments have increased, it's still not been enough for some clubs who have misappropriated these payments to beat the system.
There s no doubt going to be conversations about the finances and governance as S_M has already said, but we need to take a long look at what's more important, the game, or the money that's made off the back of the game.
Our 'game' is built on over 100 years of the pyramid. Without that history, and the foundations it's built on, there would not be opportunities to achieve great things. Liverpool would not be as great without Lincoln, Man U would not be great without Mansfield, Arsenal would not be great without Accrington. All clubs are vital ingredients that make the 'game' what it is.
There needs to be more recognition of that in the way the pyramid is protected and can thrive. A pyramid has equal sides and any money made on the back of the game needs to be shared equally and proportionately. The parachute payments drove a great big wedge into that foundation and made the pyramid unstable.
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How can £15M to Sunderland be fair to other league 1 clubs? These parachute payments are a joke and it’s part and parcel of what is wrong with football in this country.
We need some radical thinking and action if we are to progress as a league system, otherwise there will be no long term futures for many lower league Clubs.
The fact they still couldn't get promoted with a budget numerous times most clubs is quite funny though.
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How can £15M to Sunderland be fair to other league 1 clubs? These parachute payments are a joke and it’s part and parcel of what is wrong with football in this country.
We need some radical thinking and action if we are to progress as a league system, otherwise there will be no long term futures for many lower league Clubs.
The fact they still couldn't get promoted with a budget numerous times most clubs is quite funny though.
We don’t know that they may have used it pay their debts but due to their support their budget would have been bigger than most.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52714091
Unsurprisingly, one club sticks out like a sore thumb showing no class and no compassion about the plight of other clubs and their fans!
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How can £15M to Sunderland be fair to other league 1 clubs? These parachute payments are a joke and it’s part and parcel of what is wrong with football in this country.
We need some radical thinking and action if we are to progress as a league system, otherwise there will be no long term futures for many lower league Clubs.
The fact they still couldn't get promoted with a budget numerous times most clubs is quite funny though.
We don’t know that they may have used it pay their debts but due to their support their budget would have been bigger than most.
The owners took it, it was a leveraged buy out.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/52714091
Unsurprisingly, one club sticks out like a sore thumb showing no class and no compassion about the plight of other clubs and their fans!
I don't particularly like the chairman or manager but to be fair they are the biggest losers in this outcome. I'm sure that most of our fans would have been upset were we in their position. It is what it is though and we all just have to move on.
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If the time lines are correct as to when Covid 19 could have reached these Shores before Christmas and the same decisions were made at a much earlier point in the season, Wycombe and Ipswich would be in a much better position.
The Peterborough chairman looks to be one of the modern trend stamping his feet and making a noise when they lose democratic votes.
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You can only go on when the last matches were played though Selby.
Peterborough may have lost their next match and been out of play off places had the season gone on another week.
You can't please everyone though and unfortunately Peterborough and Tranmere are the big losers on the format agreed.
Had the Rovers been the recipient at either end of the league I'm sure that we would be upset.
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I can’t see how Peterborough are losers here..
At worst, they stay in the same league. At best, they may have had a chance of playing in the play offs, which they might not have won.
Big difference between that and getting relegated.
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Also, it’s worth mentioning that Rotherham, Wycombe and AFC Wimbledon have come out of this favourably (and maybe Fleetwood).
There was always going to be winners and losers and everyone knew that going into the voting exercise. But, what was also known was that playing on could have ended quite a few Clubs!
Apparently, though, one Club couldn’t give a monkeys, so long as they got into the play-off’s. Talk about how to make friends and influence people! And then a certain official at that same Club wonders why people don’t think much about him.
Let’s get on with preparing to take 6 points off that same Club next season.
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Peterbro will probably be the new Leeds next season in L1.
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Peterbro will probably be the new Leeds next season in L1.
What ... we beat them at Wembley. ? I’d take that now !
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I can’t see how Peterborough are losers here..
At worst, they stay in the same league. At best, they may have had a chance of playing in the play offs, which they might not have won.
Big difference between that and getting relegated.
Of course they are losing out, it’s relative to their position as things stood rather than in absolute terms. By your reasoning you could say that Tranmere aren’t losing out because at least they’re still in business, unlike Bury.
When covid hit Peterborough were sitting in the playoffs and in decent form. I can’t say I’ll shed any tears for them but this decision has been really unfavourable for them.
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I used to feel a bit sorry for Coventry City , but that's gone after seeing this clip if a big gang of their 'fans ' stoning and bottling a couple of cornered black lads.
https://twitter.com/alittlemug/status/1270589121099169793?s=09
Looks like League 1 are well rid of these scum and hopefully they will he relegated and we can pass then on the way up.
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They were fighting amongst themselves at St Andrews, probably the scummiest fans we’ve had a KMS since the bin kickers
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I can’t see how Peterborough are losers here..
At worst, they stay in the same league. At best, they may have had a chance of playing in the play offs, which they might not have won.
Big difference between that and getting relegated.
Of course they are losing out, it’s relative to their position as things stood rather than in absolute terms. By your reasoning you could say that Tranmere aren’t losing out because at least they’re still in business, unlike Bury.
When covid hit Peterborough were sitting in the playoffs and in decent form. I can’t say I’ll shed any tears for them but this decision has been really unfavourable for them.
Have to agree to disagree..
There would be a stronger case for them to feel aggrieved if Wycombe had played the same amount of games already. They have lost out on the chance of teaching the play offs, as have several other teams including ourselves.
My point was only about “losing out” within the context of league one alone.
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I used to feel a bit sorry for Coventry City , but that's gone after seeing this clip if a big gang of their 'fans ' stoning and bottling a couple of cornered black lads.
https://twitter.com/alittlemug/status/1270589121099169793?s=09
Looks like League 1 are well rid of these scum and hopefully they will he relegated and we can pass then on the way up.
So you think it’s only Coventry that has low life so called fans?
We have some at Rovers as i and my friends witnessed first hand in the stadium at MK Dons in the last game we played.
Yes those Coventry fans are disgraceful racialist cowards, picking on two defenceless black guys, but unfortunately most clubs have these mindless morons, including us.
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There is a back story to the Coventry incident - I’m not condoning either side. It’s alleged that the two guys were threatening others with machete type knives.
Which ever version or combination of versions is correct, it’s a sad reflection of society in general
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In the Championship the season is far from over, and how the comedy club deal with the supposed wrong doings of Sheffield Wednesday and Derby County is an issue worth following with interest. Big name clubs usually get just a little slap on the bottom, Macclesfield however have a good chance of being thrown to the lions.
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Our friend Keith Hill is to leave Bolton at the end of June when his contract ends.
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Our friend Keith Hill is to leave Bolton at the end of June when his contract ends.
Who'd be a good fit for that job mate? Joey Barton? Graham Westley? Fatty Evans?
All good friends of ours.
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Our friend Keith Hill is to leave Bolton at the end of June when his contract ends.
CEO left too. You wonder how hard the crisis has affected Bolton who's new business model depended on servicing the big loan repayments from the income generated from the hotel business and the football.
They seem confident they are not defaulting on the repayments but, as for many clubs, they will be facing more difficult times.
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This season 7 clubs have benefited by £250 million pound in parachute payments from the premier league. One being Sunderland to the tune of about £15m. Again next season there will be about the same number of clubs having payments given to them. If that money was shared between all League one and two clubs it would be £5 million each. So money is there if the premier league had the will.
If what has happened hasn’t brought the total mismanagement of the league systems to a head nothing else will . With L1/L2 clubs effectively priced out of finishing their season because none of the office's of state ie The Premier League & EFL would put their hands in the till and support the lower leagues , perhaps as they don’t see them having any value in the scheme of things .
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Well as a so called financially prudent club we have enough cash in the business to survive till the end of the month , once we hit July that is it .
It's unclear at this moment in time whether the owners are prepared to support the club out of their own pockets so to speak .
A live Q&A forum on the club's website revealed that they are marketing the fans to buy ST's for next season even though they can't guarantee fans will ever see a ball kicked inside Oakwell .
They are asking the players to defer wages , none have taken them up on it .
They are threatening to sue the EFL if we are relegated and Derby and Wednesday don't have points deducted this season if they are found guilty of breaking FFP rules .
They also asked for if relegated a £7.4m parachute payment to sustain the club in League One next season , that would go down well at Peterborough and Sunderland !!!! .
It all sounds rather worrying and not beyond comprehension that they will dump the club and walk away when the club runs out of cash .
Desperate times .
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Tyke that’s a worrying assessment of your current predicament
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Tyke that’s a worrying assessment of your current predicament
The only way the club self sustains is through the transfer market Rover , TV revenue , ST's and match day income does not .
The transfer market is likely to collapse , the vast majority of our better players are sold to championship clubs with only Mawson in recent times going to the PL .
There is pre pandemic some good players who would bring in very good revenue even with the season we've had .
Cauley Woodrow is in the £6m to £8m bracket .
Connor Chaplin around £4m
Alex Mowatt and Jacob Brown around £3m .
There at least £16m pounds worth of talent at pre pandemic market levels .
At this moment in time these players are worthless because nobody has any cash in our selling market and none of the above are PL quality , we'd do well at this moment in time to get our £2m back on what we paid for Woodrow and Chaplin never mind see a profit .
Once the transfer market collapses there's little point in the ownership continuing with the project because it's the very reason they bought the club , they never bought it to bankroll or even support it with their own funds what so ever .
The pandemic has killed the project stone dead .
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Tyke, is there a plan in place for the EFL to deal with the Derby and Sheff Weds issues?
If it doesn’t happen soon then it may be that they would begin next season in the Championship with a points deduction, rather that having a points deduction applied this season.....which would better suit your cause.
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Tyke.
I've no problem with how Barnsley have run themselves. It made sense in the existing football financial system. But a system that valued a player like Woodrow at £8m when, as you say, he is nothing more that higher Tier 2 standard, was always fundamentally broken.
Transfer fees and wages in Tier 2 became unmoored from anything that remotely made sustainable financial sense years ago. The only question was, what was going to be the catalyst to bring the whole edifice down.
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There will undoubtedly be some teams in the championship - with parachute payments etc - who can afford to buy such players at those sorts of figures in a bid to return to the premier league. The players may be no better than championship standard, but they could still command a decent fee for such buying clubs to pay.
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Peterborough are saying they will have to sell Toney and suggest that he is worth £11m.
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They might get £6m for him , when is his contract up 2021 ?
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Assets are worth jack shit when there is no market.
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Any player like Tony I think would consider staying where he is until his contract runs out. Take what is in the hand, and if he does well he will have the chance of a decent signing on fee and higher wages with a bigger club twelve months down the line, and take the chance of things being at a better place as regards clubs having funds to spend on players then than they have now.
He can't lose under the system, the only ones that could would be Peterborough at around a million pounds a month on him.
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He's had an absolutely storming season, he will easily get a Championship club (at least) and likely on higher wages, so of course he'll want to move on. There are no guarantees of another 25+ goal season after all.
Plus Posh will hugely benefit from the transfer revenue during this time.
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Toney is a great striker.
I remember suggesting a while back that I would like him at the Rovers but others posted saying no thanks.
He is a bit like Marquis in that the opposition fans really don’t like him.
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He's had an absolutely storming season, he will easily get a Championship club (at least) and likely on higher wages, so of course he'll want to move on. There are no guarantees of another 25+ goal season after all.
Plus Posh will hugely benefit from the transfer revenue during this time.
I agree, he has had a very good season, but let's put things in perspective here. He is a Championship player at best, he is nowhere near EPL quality. The idiot Chairman at Peterborough along with his Team Manager Ferguson and Director of football Fry can spout off any figure they like in terms of what they think he is worth. However, I suspect they are in for another huge disappointment, if they got 2m for him in todays new football market I would be very surprised and unless someone takes a punt on him and is prepared to pay then we could see him kicking off next season at Posh again TBH.
Quality free agent players are in demand, but clubs sticking large numbers on players still under contract and looking for a move are going to struggle to release their valuation on their assets.
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Tyke.
I've no problem with how Barnsley have run themselves. It made sense in the existing football financial system. But a system that valued a player like Woodrow at £8m when, as you say, he is nothing more that higher Tier 2 standard, was always fundamentally broken.
Transfer fees and wages in Tier 2 became unmoored from anything that remotely made sustainable financial sense years ago. The only question was, what was going to be the catalyst to bring the whole edifice down.
The problem we have Billy is that we have owners with little or no experience of English football , these people come from hospitality backgrounds and one who is a huge investor in Hollywood blockbuster's .
With that lack of experience comes not been able to manage the downsides in football effectively .
Because the club had a good streak under it's pervious owner of finding undervalued talent and made a huge profit on it attracted their attention when Patrick Cryne announced he was terminally ill and needed to sell the club .
They deduced we'd invented summat when most of us who have followed this game long enough knew they hadn't and were simply enjoying a good day at the races .
There was never at any point any thoughts of the talent drying up or the transfer market collapsing , all fairly predictable scenarios if you've followed this game long enough .
Any downside to the transfer market would always leave the club extremely exposed .
Indeed the talent coming in of late has been poor , Wilks at £1.2m is probably the runt in the litter , how much is he worth now ? ....... not what we paid for him that's for sure and that's with pre pandemic glasses on .
I've said to fellow tykes , we are facing the biggest 9 games in the clubs history when the season commences .
This isn't a battle for championship survival but a battle for our entire existence .
We don't remain in the Championship and at least £7.4m of tv revenue coming in then it could be all over for us unless the ownership are prepared to support the business .
There's little indication they have the appetite for that .
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I agree ND.
As good as he is there is no way that PU will be able to get £11m for him.
I hope they do get something for him from a Championship club though because in L1 next season he would be very potent and give PU an advantage.
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With the money in the game disappearing this season, he has everything to gain seeing his contract out, which would probably be as much or more than clubs apart from the Premiership will offer.
If he is confident in his own ability and does have a good season he will get his move hopefully when things are better, and cutting out the Peterborough money means he will end up with a big signing on fee and higher wages.
The risk he takes is that he or Peterborough bomb in the next season.
Anyone thinking big money apart from at the top will be splashed out this coming season are away with the fairies.
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Tyke, is there a plan in place for the EFL to deal with the Derby and Sheff Weds issues?
If it doesn’t happen soon then it may be that they would begin next season in the Championship with a points deduction, rather that having a points deduction applied this season.....which would better suit your cause.
Both Derby and Wednesday are still to face the music hound .
Not certain at what stage the EFL are with it in all honesty .
I suspect the EFL are playing for time and see where the land lies when all 46 games are completed before coming to a decision .
If we go down and are only 9 points behind Wednesday and they don't deduct them points this season then my club are taking the EFL to court for not adhering to their own rules with discrimination at the heart of it .
This has happened to us before when Bolton stayed up in the final five minutes of the season which sent us down , with five minutes of the season remaining we were safe .
Bolton were then deducted points the following season which wasn't much good to us in League One .
We let that one ride and didn't challenge it , however this time we aren't .
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Yeah we went down when Bolton scored ten seconds from the end of the season one time.
I suppose the EFL won’t want to tread on the toes of DC or SW so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they leave a decision until,it won’t send one or both of them down.
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Yeah we went down when Bolton scored ten seconds from the end of the season one time.
I suppose the EFL won’t want to tread on the toes of DC or SW so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they leave a decision until,it won’t send one or both of them down.
It was Birmingham wasn’t it? Possibly against Bolton. Like you I can’t see the EFL acting on Wednesday or Derby and relegating either of them.
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Yeah we went down when Bolton scored ten seconds from the end of the season one time.
I suppose the EFL won’t want to tread on the toes of DC or SW so it wouldn’t surprise me at all if they leave a decision until,it won’t send one or both of them down.
It was Birmingham wasn’t it? Possibly against Bolton. Like you I can’t see the EFL acting on Wednesday or Derby and relegating either of them.
Yes Nick, it was Birmingham.....at Bolton of course.
Still, it is ok to blame Bolton......for letting them score.
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Paul Caddis
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Paul Caddis
Yes, and we got our own back on him when he lined up for Blackburn in 2017 at Ewood Park, and we dicked them 3-1.
I loved that day.
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Tyke, is there a plan in place for the EFL to deal with the Derby and Sheff Weds issues?
If it doesn’t happen soon then it may be that they would begin next season in the Championship with a points deduction, rather that having a points deduction applied this season.....which would better suit your cause.
Both Derby and Wednesday are still to face the music hound .
Not certain at what stage the EFL are with it in all honesty .
I suspect the EFL are playing for time and see where the land lies when all 46 games are completed before coming to a decision .
If we go down and are only 9 points behind Wednesday and they don't deduct them points this season then my club are taking the EFL to court for not adhering to their own rules with discrimination at the heart of it .
This has happened to us before when Bolton stayed up in the final five minutes of the season which sent us down , with five minutes of the season remaining we were safe .
Bolton were then deducted points the following season which wasn't much good to us in League One .
We let that one ride and didn't challenge it , however this time we aren't .
Tyke I think you’ve got your facts wrong mate. To my knowledge Wanderers have never suffered a points deduction other than the recent one and I’ve been watching them since the early sixties. Please confirm the season because I’ve either missed it or your confusing Wanderers with someone else. I know Bolton are number one villains on here but we’ve never had an issue with Barnsley to my knowledge.
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Tyke, is there a plan in place for the EFL to deal with the Derby and Sheff Weds issues?
If it doesn’t happen soon then it may be that they would begin next season in the Championship with a points deduction, rather that having a points deduction applied this season.....which would better suit your cause.
Both Derby and Wednesday are still to face the music hound .
Not certain at what stage the EFL are with it in all honesty .
I suspect the EFL are playing for time and see where the land lies when all 46 games are completed before coming to a decision .
If we go down and are only 9 points behind Wednesday and they don't deduct them points this season then my club are taking the EFL to court for not adhering to their own rules with discrimination at the heart of it .
This has happened to us before when Bolton stayed up in the final five minutes of the season which sent us down , with five minutes of the season remaining we were safe .
Bolton were then deducted points the following season which wasn't much good to us in League One .
We let that one ride and didn't challenge it , however this time we aren't .
Tyke I think you’ve got your facts wrong mate. To my knowledge Wanderers have never suffered a points deduction other than the recent one and I’ve been watching them since the early sixties. Please confirm the season because I’ve either missed it or your confusing Wanderers with someone else. I know Bolton are number one villains on here but we’ve never had an issue with Barnsley to my knowledge.
Hi frankie .
Yeh your right , my club have spun this one and I've not checked it right .
What they should have said is that you were having severe financial issues at the time , 2017 / 18 which is a bit different from the EFL investigating Bolton Wanderers .
No axe with Bolton either mate , had some titanic battles with yourselves in the late 90's , two tremendous games the year we both got automatically promoted to the PL , the second encounter at Burnden Park was one of the best championship games I've seen .
Hope your club can sort your issues out , the fans aren't responsible for it after all .
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Thanks for that Tyke I couldn’t recall any other points penalties but I might have missed something. I also remember some cracking games against Barnsley including the year you mention. I recall being at Oakwell with a bunch of Barnsley mates and we were 2-0 up at half time thinking we’d cracked it but you came storming back in the second half and we were lucky to come away with a point. We were both in the top 3 so every point mattered.
We’ve fallen on hard times mate brought on by a crooked owner, much like Donny in the nineties but hopefully we have hit bottom, have good new owners and I’m sure will bounce back quickly as long as this virus doesn’t cause too much damage.
Anyway best of luck for the rest of the season and I look forward to future games between us as well as Donny in the years to come if we all survive?
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Frankie/Tyke can I just point out that this is Rovers forum 😉
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So what! Always good to have input from supporters of other clubs, especially when they write sensibly. Carry on lads.
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Frankie/Tyke can I just point out that this is Rovers forum 😉
Get a room guys lol
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So what! Always good to have input from supporters of other clubs, especially when they write sensibly. Carry on lads.
you missed RR’s winky emoticon.?
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Thanks for that Tyke I couldn’t recall any other points penalties but I might have missed something. I also remember some cracking games against Barnsley including the year you mention. I recall being at Oakwell with a bunch of Barnsley mates and we were 2-0 up at half time thinking we’d cracked it but you came storming back in the second half and we were lucky to come away with a point. We were both in the top 3 so every point mattered.
We’ve fallen on hard times mate brought on by a crooked owner, much like Donny in the nineties but hopefully we have hit bottom, have good new owners and I’m sure will bounce back quickly as long as this virus doesn’t cause too much damage.
Anyway best of luck for the rest of the season and I look forward to future games between us as well as Donny in the years to come if we all survive?
This is a better explanation of my club's position towards yourselves Frankie and the 2017/18 campaign .
https://www.thestar.co.uk/sport/football/sheffield-wednesday/rumours-imminent-decision-over-sheffield-wednesday-points-deduction-says-barnsley-ceo-2880967?fbclid=IwAR0YwKupqlI3vhP3ApbtgqrBTs8KVzpEcpVXM-5OSske6RcdtnbC84D-6dY
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The reason we weren’t penalised that season Tyke was because there’s a cut off point where it takes effect the following season. We would actually have preferred it that season because we were going down anyway but trying to get any kind of sensible decision out of the EFL is as you know rather hard.
All the problems we had over the cancelled Donny game could have been avoided if they had given Donny the 3 points and penalised us financially separately but oh no, let’s just drag it out. In fact if that had awarded Donny the points it could have meant you making the play offs so there are big affects. Don’t bet on them making points deductions this year for those transgressing because they would only open up another legal challenge. Basically the EFL are not fit for purpose and need to be replaced with a totally independent body from the clubs.
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The reason there is a cut off date for such punishments to roll into the next season is precisely for the situation you pointed out “we were going down anyway” or it’s no real punishment at all.
If I remember correctly, this all started when Leeds put themselves into Administration during the actual game, where their relegation would have happened anyway, in an attempt to nullify the points deduction.
We all know what happened the following season.!
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The reason we weren’t penalised that season Tyke was because there’s a cut off point where it takes effect the following season. We would actually have preferred it that season because we were going down anyway but trying to get any kind of sensible decision out of the EFL is as you know rather hard.
All the problems we had over the cancelled Donny game could have been avoided if they had given Donny the 3 points and penalised us financially separately but oh no, let’s just drag it out. In fact if that had awarded Donny the points it could have meant you making the play offs so there are big affects. Don’t bet on them making points deductions this year for those transgressing because they would only open up another legal challenge. Basically the EFL are not fit for purpose and need to be replaced with a totally independent body from the clubs.
Well the EFL may look at ourselves as one of the small fish in the Championship but they'd be well advised to be aware that the consortium who own us are not .
Worth a collective £9bn with access to the best legal teams money can buy .
I'm not personally trying to desperately cling on to our championship status here at all costs , our failings on the field are acknowledged by me all too well .
However this isn't right either and needs challenging , this isn't our fight , it's every clubs fight of our size trying to compete in the Championship .
The EFL are corrupt to the core and someone needs to call them out as such .
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What is really frustrating for everyone is the lack of clarity on timescales for when these investigations and disciplinaries should be heard by etc. Everyone is left in limbo. Yes, some matters are more complex than others but if the rules were to state that a disciplinary will be heard within 28 days of the charges being brought or something, at least everyone knows what's happening.
If either side wish to apply for an extention to that deadline then they must be able to provide a good explanation.
The other observation is how much time have Birmingham taken up as a result of being repeat offenders?? Maybe different regimes there but they seem to be at it, one way or another, with alarming regularity.
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What is really frustrating for everyone is the lack of clarity on timescales for when these investigations and disciplinaries should be heard by etc. Everyone is left in limbo. Yes, some matters are more complex than others but if the rules were to state that a disciplinary will be heard within 28 days of the charges being brought or something, at least everyone knows what's happening.
If either side wish to apply for an extention to that deadline then they must be able to provide a good explanation.
The other observation is how much time have Birmingham taken up as a result of being repeat offenders?? Maybe different regimes there but they seem to be at it, one way or another, with alarming regularity.
Birmingham definitely fit the bill of serial offenders , so clearly they have satisfied themselves that whatever punishment they receive its minimal .
If Birmingham played on the continent they'd have been instantly demoted and in severe cases by two divisions .
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I see Mr Clough is supposed to be in talks with Brum
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I genuinely hope so we don’t want him anywhere near Wanderers. Same boring football Parky put on us.