Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: selby on December 09, 2022, 10:14:20 pm
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As a report says that the lead of the Labour Party has been cut from 30 points to 11 points in a survey.
What now stabber?
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Pray England don't win the world cup (@gain ;) )
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"A report..."?
Let me guess...
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https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunak-claws-back-2019-tory-voters-cutting-labour-lead-from-30-to-11-points-poll-shows-2021134
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Yes.
That's a single poll.
You should never, ever trust a single poll. They are comparing the very highest Labour lead to a single, outlier low figure.
The real picture, taking the average of all recent polls into account, says that Labour briefly hit a lead of 31-32% at the depth of the Truss catastrophe, and is now settled down to a lead of 21-22%.
The lead under Truss was never going to last. Even the Tories weren't going to keep a PM as utterly f**king disastrous as Truss. But the replacement by Sunak has still left the Tories behind by historically large amounts.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_after_2019_(LOESS).svg
It is totally wrong to say that Sunak has brought the actual lead down from 30% to 11%. Unless you are trying to misrepresente the polls.
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Objective lies?
''Rishi Sunak has been condemned for using “disingenuous” figures after he repeated a claim that meeting union demands for public sector pay awards would cost every household £1,000 extra a year''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/09/rishi-sunak-condemned-repeating-figure-pounds-1000-cost-of-public-sector-pay-demands
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Majority of public support NHS strikes:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/12/07/9c7fb/1
ad oppose Sunak's proposed legislation to ban NHS strikes:
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/12/08/b3d1a/2
and we can't afford to give nurses a decent pay rise but his bank surcharge tax cut will give bankers massive bonuses rises and cost the taxpayer £7.3 BILLION.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/rishi-sunaks-bank-tax-giveaway-26562814?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar
Vote Tory
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The right to withdraw your labour should be an inviolable right of the working person.
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Yes.
That's a single poll.
You should never, ever trust a single poll. They are comparing the very highest Labour lead to a single, outlier low figure.
The real picture, taking the average of all recent polls into account, says that Labour briefly hit a lead of 31-32% at the depth of the Truss catastrophe, and is now settled down to a lead of 21-22%.
The lead under Truss was never going to last. Even the Tories weren't going to keep a PM as utterly f**king disastrous as Truss. But the replacement by Sunak has still left the Tories behind by historically large amounts.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election_after_2019_(LOESS).svg
It is totally wrong to say that Sunak has brought the actual lead down from 30% to 11%. Unless you are trying to misrepresente the polls.
Just saying it was a poll, not a report.
Like it or not the Tories will probably reduce the gap because Labour support had increased only through the public's despair of the government, and not because they are an exciting alternative.
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They might not be an exciting alternative but they don’t carry the stench of corruption and cronyism that the Tory party currently do.
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Once again.
Oppositions never, ever win elections. Governments lose them.
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They might not be an exciting alternative but they don’t carry the stench of corruption and cronyism that the Tory party currently do.
Power corrupts. The Tories have been in power more than Labour.
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Finally something truthful
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Had a conversation with a customer in the taxi yesterday about the Rail Strikes, he was slagging Train Drivers off saying that they average £50k a year and they are going on strike. I politely put him right on that bit of Tory propaganda and told him that train drivers are ASLEF, it’s the RMT that are striking, he was totally oblivious to that
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I'm not sure why anyone on strike today would give the Labour Party a single thought when they vote for continued industrial action .
All that concerns them is keeping a roof over their head and feeding their families , Keith's election prospects don't even come in to it .
If Labour come to power they are likely to be facing the very same wave of industrial action unless things change considerably under their watch .
Trade Unions are starting to get back in the game and becoming relevant again after a near 40 year absence covering both Tory and Labour governments .
However they need to tread very carefully in my opinion because this country is still inhabited with a good number of the public who resent people standing up for themselves and not knowing their place .
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Had a conversation with a customer in the taxi yesterday about the Rail Strikes, he was slagging Train Drivers off saying that they average £50k a year and they are going on strike. I politely put him right on that bit of Tory propaganda and told him that train drivers are ASLEF, it’s the RMT that are striking, he was totally oblivious to that
ASLEF IS proposing to go on strike.
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Had a conversation with a customer in the taxi yesterday about the Rail Strikes, he was slagging Train Drivers off saying that they average £50k a year and they are going on strike. I politely put him right on that bit of Tory propaganda and told him that train drivers are ASLEF, it’s the RMT that are striking, he was totally oblivious to that
ASLEF IS proposing to go on strike.
Which means at this moment in time they are not on strike, the conversation was about the chap not understanding the present dispute
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Had a conversation with a customer in the taxi yesterday about the Rail Strikes, he was slagging Train Drivers off saying that they average £50k a year and they are going on strike. I politely put him right on that bit of Tory propaganda and told him that train drivers are ASLEF, it’s the RMT that are striking, he was totally oblivious to that
ASLEF IS proposing to go on strike.
Which means at this moment in time they are not on strike, the conversation was about the chap not understanding the present dispute
That reads in future tense.
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Good move from the health unions, it will show whether the government are genuine ..... or not
''health unions offer to pause NHS strikes if government join pay talks''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/10/exclusive-health-unions-offer-to-pause-nhs-strikes-if-government-join-pay-talks
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I see LK let Notso get away with saying the dispute is between NHS and Nurses nothing to do with Govt. Remind me, who awards a pay settlement on the NHS?
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Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the Government, who accepted their recommendations?
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Had a conversation with a customer in the taxi yesterday about the Rail Strikes, he was slagging Train Drivers off saying that they average £50k a year and they are going on strike. I politely put him right on that bit of Tory propaganda and told him that train drivers are ASLEF, it’s the RMT that are striking, he was totally oblivious to that
ASLEF IS proposing to go on strike.
Which means at this moment in time they are not on strike, the conversation was about the chap not understanding the present dispute
That reads in future tense.
Could be quite a game changer if they manage to drag Aslef kicking and screaming fully into this dispute. The TOC's and FOC's want to renegotiate the drivers terms and conditions to force them to include the weekend as part of the working week(at the moment many have weekend working as voluntary and done as overtime or rest day working.) Its not that they are totally against this move, would you be prepared to give up your weekends off and be asked to work them for no extra pay ?. most new terms these days try to get drivers to do so but it will only happen across the board if their is some sort of supplement for doing so.
Our drivers get a supplement and additional pay if they work un rostered weekends, i don't consider that to be unreasonable as any reasonable mind would.
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There is a strange assumption behind the opening post.
Why would Labour lose support over trade unions trying to protect their members from cost of living attacks by the government?
That is their job, and the role of Labour is to back them in the HoC and the media.
The failure of Starmer to support working class interests is far more damaging to the Labour Party.
It is not clear to many whose side Labour is on....unfortunately, I think I know!
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Could it be a perceived steadying of the ship from Sunak after Truss’ chaos?
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BB they turned it down in 2014
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Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the Government, who accepted their recommendations?
So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?
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Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the Government, who accepted their recommendations?
So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?
I imagine the government does on the recommendation of the NHSPRB.
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But the government can turn down the independent recommendations.
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But the government can turn down the independent recommendations.
Well, yes. I imagine recommendation is just that, and not binding.
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But the government can turn down the independent recommendations.
Well, yes. I imagine recommendation is just that, and not binding.
Nurses and medical staff have just gone through what must have been one of the worst periods of their careers with many hundreds of their colleagues dying through lack of safe working conditions and massive under staffing they have been offered a paltry 3% which under the present economic management means they are going 100mph backwards, what would you BB advise them to do, stick or twist?
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Absolutely disgraceful the same people the government were lauding during covid have suddenly become spawn of the devil. They (Government) need to make the NHS an attractive place to work or the understaffing is going to spiral
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But the government can turn down the independent recommendations.
Well, yes. I imagine recommendation is just that, and not binding.
Pity you couldn’t accept that on another subject that’s damaging the country!
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What?
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Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the Government, who accepted their recommendations?
So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?
I imagine the government does on the recommendation of the NHSPRB.
So the dispute is between the Union and The Government? Yes?
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I am a bit conflicted. Yes there's cost of living issues quite clearly. But I'm not sure striking is quite the right way to go about it and actually I think a lot of people will feel worried about lack of care when nurses or paramedics strike. There's a valid point that 3% isn't enough but there does have to be a limit.
On the point though I'm not sure there's a big appetite to support strikes in the depth of a cold winter at all.
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BFYP
1) If 3% is not enough, but your employer is insisting they will offer no more than 3%, you only have 2 choices.
-Accept an offer that you yourself say is too low.
-Take industrial action.
There's literally no alternative. If you think the offer is too low to accept, you have no option but to support the industrial action.
2) If you think the 3% offer is unacceptably low, and there is industrial action, and patients suffer, follow the logical trail to decide who is to blame for patients suffering.
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Absolutely disgraceful the same people the government were lauding during covid have suddenly become spawn of the devil. They (Government) need to make the NHS an attractive place to work or the understaffing is going to spiral
Correct. Which will make it less and less efficient to run and it will just swallow up any money that is thrown at it. Sometimes spending some extra money stops you losing money in the future.
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Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the Government, who accepted their recommendations?
So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?
I imagine the government does on the recommendation of the NHSPRB.
So the dispute is between the Union and The Government? Yes?
The NHSPRB provides an independent recommendation to the Government. The Government accepted the recommendation. The Union doesn't accept the recommendation so ultimately the dispute is between the Union and the Government.
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Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the Government, who accepted their recommendations?
So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?
I imagine the government does on the recommendation of the NHSPRB.
So the dispute is between the Union and The Government? Yes?
The NHSPRB provides an independent recommendation to the Government. The Government accepted the recommendation. The Union doesn't accept the recommendation so ultimately the dispute is between the Union and the Government.
The union puts the information to its members, offers advice (which is what they are paid to do) and then acts upon the wishes of it's members, what would you advise nurses to do under these circumstances bb?
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BFYP
1) If 3% is not enough, but your employer is insisting they will offer no more than 3%, you only have 2 choices.
-Accept an offer that you yourself say is too low.
-Take industrial action.
There's literally no alternative. If you think the offer is too low to accept, you have no option but to support the industrial action.
2) If you think the 3% offer is unacceptably low, and there is industrial action, and patients suffer, follow the logical trail to decide who is to blame for patients suffering.
Or they could campaign, make much more noise, protest etc. I can't really support risking the health of patients personally.
Fwiw, in our business we all got pay cuts this year as that's how our contracts work, different scenario as we could just go elsewhere. I don't feel that 5% for nurses would break the bank personally.
I disagree more with those striking over reforms eg the royal mail staff. They need to accept change is needed.
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If you haven't heard the noise being made already pud you aint been listening
Noise added
''Protesters march for fair pay for nurses and other NHS staff
This article is more than 2 years old
More than 30 marches due on Saturday in recognition of work during coronavirus pandemic''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/aug/08/hundreds-march-fair-pay-nhs-nurses-coronavirus
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Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the Government, who accepted their recommendations?
So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?
I imagine the government does on the recommendation of the NHSPRB.
So the dispute is between the Union and The Government? Yes?
The NHSPRB provides an independent recommendation to the Government. The Government accepted the recommendation. The Union doesn't accept the recommendation so ultimately the dispute is between the Union and the Government.
Yay!
However regarding the Pay Body......
Who is pay Review Body for NHS?
The NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) advises on the pay of NHS staff. NHSPRB is an advisory non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Department of Health and Social Care.
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And?
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I read an inference in a previous reply that the pay body was part of the NHS, apologies if I'm incorrect
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RR it’s independent but serves as a useful stooge for the government. If the government agrees with the recommendations it becomes a pay award rather than a pay offer which bypasses for a large chunk of nhs staff union consultation. Hence why staff covered under agenda for change have received on average 4% in September backdated to April. It’s been a few years since they have not done this.
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Yes that was my point, the pay offer is advisory the Government implement it hence the dispute is between them and the nurses
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Correct
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Pet Shop Boy Wes Streeting sets out the Labour position on the health dispute in the Torygraph;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/10/labour-vows-war-hostile-health-unions/
At least we are clear whose side he is on, if there were any lingering doubts!
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Pet Shop Boy Wes Streeting sets out the Labour position on the health dispute in the Torygraph;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/10/labour-vows-war-hostile-health-unions/
At least we are clear whose side he is on, if there were any lingering doubts!
Did you actually read that article before you posted it Albie?
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BST,
Of course I read it before posting, what a silly remark.
If you read it, you will see Wes thinks that a pay deal in the health service is unaffordable,
"Mr Streeting said a Labour government could not afford the pay rises nurses are seeking"...er, why not?
Governments have tax raising powers.
So it is possible to raise funds by increasing tax responsibilities of the wealthy, those with the broadest shoulders etc.
Alternatively, we could level up capital gains with the income tax regime, or cancel the cut in stamp duty.
Nurses pay is 20% below the level it was at in 2010 in real terms.
According to the TUC, that is a £5k reduction, and over £1800 of that in 2022.
Paramedics and midwives have a similar erosion of living standards.
What Wes is saying is that Labour have no appetite to restore health workers to a parity with pre-austerity levels of pay.
The further pay falls behind, the more difficult it will be to recruit and retain staff.
Do you think Wes is sponsored by private health interests?
If that is acceptable to you, it will not be to trade unionists.
Thin end of the wedge, BST.
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I don't think there's any doubt as to what Labour would do about these strikes if they were in power right now.
Exactly the same as the Tories.
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Is that why you allowed them into power SS?
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Is that why you allowed them into power SS?
Who, Labour or the Tories? A bit of an irrelevance if they're both the same as regards support for the unions.
What about YOU? Do you support the unions, or do you just support Keith?
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SS you keep on asking the same silly questions aye but never make yourself accountable, tell who you voted for since 2010
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SS you keep on asking the same silly questions aye but never make yourself accountable, tell who you voted for since 2010
Oh, I'm accountable alright, I support Mick Lynch and the RMT, and ALL the striking unions this Winter.
If Keith does the same, and puts forward a credible package to help the poorest in society to cope with the cost of living crisis, then I MIGHT even vote for him.
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I guess the bigger question in all this is why do medical staff require a 17.6% to make their wages up, if in fact your (anyone) personal voting pattern since 2010 allowed the tories in then you are partly responsible, is that not a reasonable statement?
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SS you keep on asking the same silly questions aye but never make yourself accountable, tell who you voted for since 2010
Oh, I'm accountable alright, I support Mick Lynch and the RMT, and ALL the striking unions this Winter.
If Keith does the same, and puts forward a credible package to help the poorest in society to cope with the cost of living crisis, then I MIGHT even vote for him.
so ok if I accept what you have just written, what have you done to support them?
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Come on Steve it can't be that difficult, have you paid union dues, marched. what have you done?
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You have a strange concept of wage negotiation Albie.
Do you genuinely think the nurses are expecting to get their wage demands satisfied in full? Do you think any union ever sets out an initial negotiating position as what they actually expect to win? And that any Govt negotiation that settles for something less than the union demand is a betrayal?
You DO know how negotiations work?
And I have to admit, when someone like you, apparently of the Left, pushes a story from the Telegraph with a headline about a shadow minister declaring "war on hostile unions" (when quotes in the article didn't remotely support such a claim) I do have to wonder about why you don't point out that gross misrepresentation.
I know you are struggling to cope with the fact that this Labour party is actually going to win the next Election, form a Government and actually be able to shape policy, rather than indulge it's collective conscience, but I'm surprised that is clouding your logic to this extent.
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I stopped reading Crace as his lines had become a bit samey, but this relates to the discussion in hand don't you think?
''Irony dies as Tories accuse Labour of using the NHS as a political football''
''Crisis? What crisis? Inflation running at 12%. The economy heading for recession. The UK ranked 38 out of 38 in the most recent OECD forecasts. Now that’s what I call world-beating. The Conservatives’ poll ratings tanking by the hour. Half the country voting for industrial action. It’s harder to find someone not planning to go on strike these days''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/irony-dies-tories-accuse-labour-using-nhs-as-political-football
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I stopped reading Crace as his lines had become a bit samey, but this relates to the discussion in hand don't you think?
''Irony dies as Tories accuse Labour of using the NHS as a political football''
''Crisis? What crisis? Inflation running at 12%. The economy heading for recession. The UK ranked 38 out of 38 in the most recent OECD forecasts. Now that’s what I call world-beating. The Conservatives’ poll ratings tanking by the hour. Half the country voting for industrial action. It’s harder to find someone not planning to go on strike these days''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/irony-dies-tories-accuse-labour-using-nhs-as-political-football
This is where I end up dissociating from political debates.
The 2008 recession was not Labour’s fault. The conservatives proposition before the crash was to match Labour’s spending. But the tories put the blame on them.
In the same way, this current financial crisis is not the conservative’s fault. Labour would not have stopped Covid or Putin’s invasion. But they put the blame on the tories.
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Health spending trend over the last decade shows an increase every year of conservative government. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget
Money needs to be spent, but it has to be spent in the correct way or it will just get sucked in to the black hole of an inefficient system.
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005876004818944?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005880534712320?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg
One of these graphs does show that the % GDP spending on healthcare has gone down actually though. But note how much we have to spend on hospital care compared to other countries.
The problem is very complex. Does the NHS need a restructure?
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You have overlooked a small detail nc, the tories have been in gov't for over 12 years, it's certainly not labour's fault, the economy was sent in a downward spiral with Austerity, it was never in a good position to stand any shocks, then Brexit, look at the reports that put the UK at the bottom of the heap with Russia as other economies have progressed.
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Health spending trend over the last decade shows an increase every year of conservative government. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget
Money needs to be spent, but it has to be spent in the correct way or it will just get sucked in to the black hole of an inefficient system.
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005876004818944?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005880534712320?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg
One of these graphs does show that the % GDP spending on healthcare has gone down actually though. But note how much we have to spend on hospital care compared to other countries.
''Decade of neglect means NHS unable to tackle care backlog, report says
Exclusive: Government-commissioned paper pinpoints budget squeeze as key reason for service’s loss of capacity''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/decade-of-neglect-means-nhs-unable-to-tackle-care-backlog-report-says
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You have overlooked a small detail nc, the tories have been in gov't for over 12 years, it's certainly not labour's fault, the economy was sent in a downward spiral with Austerity, it was never in a good position to stand any shocks, then Brexit, look at the reports that put the UK at the bottom of the heap with Russia as other economies have progressed.
Yes we have stagnated and I believe Brexit was not necessary.
But at present are we doing much worse than other large European countries? I’d like to see the latest data on this if anyone has it?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7d0086da-78af-11ed-8dd6-146590878cf8?shareToken=8e088a82c1ca7596b6f4cb330d3ae207
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Health spending trend over the last decade shows an increase every year of conservative government. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget
Money needs to be spent, but it has to be spent in the correct way or it will just get sucked in to the black hole of an inefficient system.
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005876004818944?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg
https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005880534712320?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg
One of these graphs does show that the % GDP spending on healthcare has gone down actually though. But note how much we have to spend on hospital care compared to other countries.
''Decade of neglect means NHS unable to tackle care backlog, report says
Exclusive: Government-commissioned paper pinpoints budget squeeze as key reason for service’s loss of capacity''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/decade-of-neglect-means-nhs-unable-to-tackle-care-backlog-report-says
“The paper by the King’s Fund health thinktank says years of denying funding to the health service and failing to address its growing workforce crisis have left it with too few staff, too little equipment and too many outdated buildings to perform the amount of surgery needed.”
I think that sums it up well. Infrastructure, IT, technology all need investing in also.
How does the NHS compare to France’s insurance supported healthcare system in terms of outcomes? The solely public-funded NHS is an outlier in this respect in today’s times.
Like I said the money needs spending in the right way or it will just get sucked up.
Our ageing population and unhealthy population surely must be a factor also. The baby boomer generation are now in to their 70s. The UK fertility rate has been below the replacement rate of 2 for decades now. Who is going to look after all these old people? We need immigration to stop our society collapsing.
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I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc
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I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc
There was me thinking you were in a polite mood today!
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Just because johnson was driven out doesn't mean that the ₤350 million/week cannot still be used, it's still there isn't it?
I wonder why, if the tories were spending more money on the NHS that they would need that sort of money so badly and of course the 40 new hospitals.
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I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc
There was me thinking you were in a polite mood today!
Being direct and to the point is being polite where I come from.
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I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc
There was me thinking you were in a polite mood today!
Being direct and to the point is being polite where I come from.
I thought I made some balanced points and proposed some good questions to expand the debate to be honest. Not everything has to be an argument.
Like I said % GDP spending on healthcare has gone down. They need to commit to the NHS or explore other options, it can’t be half-arsed.
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I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc
There was me thinking you were in a polite mood today!
Being direct and to the point is being polite where I come from.
I thought I made some balanced points and proposed some good questions to expand the debate to be honest. Not everything has to be an argument.
An argument is where topics are discussed, all the topics have been discussed and the jury came in on all the salient points quite some time ago, about austerity, about brexit, about economic growth and about the NHS and the tory neglect, it's all there in the OBR reports and the latest Government report in the NHS and why there are 7.2 million people on the waiting list.
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What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?
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What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?
As I have just had two weeks in hospital I can tell you there are problems but nothing is perfect, I am agitating for mandatory reporting of all adverse outcomes as I believe that if problems are not reported correctly the system will struggle to improve. The newly installed labor government has put money up to reduce waiting lists and is opening walk up care centres to take the load off the hospitals.
There is medicare (read NHS) and a private sector, I refuse on principle to use the private sector though I can well afford it. It keeps me grounded.
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What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?
Good question nc, and it would be interesting to know. If it's anything like the USA, then it's not something I'd like to see over here.
A good friend of mine has been working in the US for quite a number of years and, as a perk of his job had his and his wife's medical insurance paid for by the company he worked for, as a benefit of that job. When he retired the medical insurance was $500 a month for the two of them.
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What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?
As I have just had two weeks in hospital I can tell you there are problems but nothing is perfect, I am agitating for mandatory reporting of all adverse outcomes as I believe that if problems are not reported correctly the system will struggle to improve. The newly installed labor government has put money up to reduce waiting lists and is opening walk up care centres to take the load off the hospitals.
There is medicare (read NHS) and a private sector, I refuse on principle to use the private sector though I can well afford it. It keeps me grounded.
Sorry to hear, I hope you’re feeling better.
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It's not at all like the US system but the private sector is growing, well see how effective labor is over their 3 year term. Labor brought in medicare in the early 70s and everyone has a card. Those on invalid pension, pensions, welfare etc get treatment free but have to wait especially the further one is from a capital city. There is a medicare levy (read national insurance) if you don;t have private insurance you pay more tax which I did, there were junk insurance policies that gave you nothing except the right to pay less tax but I think they are being phased out. All those that are working have to pay a gap fee to see their GP and specialists. There is a chronic shortage of doctors in the outback. Labor may have made it's first blunder as they changed a system where doctors arriving from O/S had to work for around 5-10 years remotely before working in the city labor reduce that remote distance to attract more doctors but most doctors wnat to work closer to a capital therefore less going to remote centre.
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What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?
As I have just had two weeks in hospital I can tell you there are problems but nothing is perfect, I am agitating for mandatory reporting of all adverse outcomes as I believe that if problems are not reported correctly the system will struggle to improve. The newly installed labor government has put money up to reduce waiting lists and is opening walk up care centres to take the load off the hospitals.
There is medicare (read NHS) and a private sector, I refuse on principle to use the private sector though I can well afford it. It keeps me grounded.
Sorry to hear, I hope you’re feeling better.
Thank you, I had my elbow serviced but got g/staph too which delayed my recovery somewhat, I hope to play a short round of golf maybe in Feb.
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Sydney. I hope your elbow recovers sufficiently well to enable you to bring down bush tucker with your boomerang.
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How's the two lads in the beds next to you doing Syd?
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Sydney. I hope your elbow recovers sufficiently well to enable you to bring down bush tucker with your boomerang.
It'll be like that one of Charlie Drake's, and won't f*cking well come back.
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How's the two lads in the beds next to you doing Syd?
Now that did make me laugh out loud , quality .
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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How's the two lads in the beds next to you doing Syd?
They can't stop laughing since I showed them your comments brian
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"Bloody nurses! To think we risked our lives clapping for them in all weathers while there was a deadly virus around!"
"They're enemies of the people. Just like all the other enemies that are starting to outnumber the people"
Colin from Portsmouth vs the nurses' strike.
https://twitter.com/Exploding_Heads/status/1602627914759131136
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All the best with your recovery Syd.
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Cheer wilts, I'm fine now just a bit of rehab.
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Sydney. I hope your elbow recovers sufficiently well to enable you to bring down bush tucker with your boomerang.
It'll be like that one of Charlie Drake's, and won't f*cking well come back.
Hey Steve, next time you are talking to Mick, ask if he would like a labour government next or another tory disaster.
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Wow just read a headline that sunak was going to clear the backlog by the end of next year, then I read he was talking about Albanians not the NHS, got to get your priorities right aye.
vote tory
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I stopped reading Crace as his lines had become a bit samey, but this relates to the discussion in hand don't you think?
''Irony dies as Tories accuse Labour of using the NHS as a political football''
''Crisis? What crisis? Inflation running at 12%. The economy heading for recession. The UK ranked 38 out of 38 in the most recent OECD forecasts. Now that’s what I call world-beating. The Conservatives’ poll ratings tanking by the hour. Half the country voting for industrial action. It’s harder to find someone not planning to go on strike these days''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/irony-dies-tories-accuse-labour-using-nhs-as-political-football
This is where I end up dissociating from political debates.
The 2008 recession was not Labour’s fault. The conservatives proposition before the crash was to match Labour’s spending. But the tories put the blame on them.
In the same way, this current financial crisis is not the conservative’s fault. Labour would not have stopped Covid or Putin’s invasion. But they put the blame on the tories.
There's a certain amount of truth there, but it goes only so far.
In 2008, we'd had 15 years of good growth in the economy. Ken Clarke had managed things well for the Tories after the self-inflicted recession of the early 90s and the self-inflicted disaster of Black Wednesday. For once, the Tories used sensible, textbook economic policy. And it worked. Brown continued that for a decade, so when the global crash happened, we were in a reasonably strong position. And Brown then brought in absolutely the correct policies to prevent the GFC becoming a second Great Depression. Govt borrowing and spending in those circumstances is exactly the right thing to do, no matter what Osborne and Cameron said about the deficit.
Absolutely, the current Govt can't be blamed for COVID and Putin's War being the root of the current economic problem.
But.
When these problems hit, we'd had the absolute disaster of a decade of below average growth, all because of the insane policy of Austerity. We lost 1% growth every year throughout the 10s. The cumulative result of that is scarcely credible. If we had had growth through the 10s that we'd had from 93-08, we'd have had over £1trn extra economic activity. That would have been enough to send an extra 10,000,000 kids to university, put solar panels on every house in the country, build 200 new hospitals and still have enough to give £7000 to every man woman and child in the country.
We lost that. Never coming back. So we were already much weaker when the external problems hit.
And then, to cap it all, the Tory party chose a leader who implemented the most crazy voodoo economic experiment in decades. Despite being told by everyone who understood economic theory that it would be a disaster (including Sunak to be fair).
So yes, neither Govt should be blamed for the underlying causes of the external shocks. But the previous policies and the reaction to the problem were vastly different in the two cases. And that is what domestic Governments CAN affect. Labour were broadly right. The Tories have been catastrophically wrong.
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An interesting blog post here on why public sector workers are not the cause of the current inflation/cost of living mess - but the victims of it. Summed up by:
'The political failure (by successive Tory governments since 2010) was a simple one: to pretend to the public that they can have the services they need, with a regular diet of budget day tax gifts too. Today’s public sector problems, no matter how much they were triggered by Putin, are exacerbated by that simple, sustained failure of leadership.'
https://freethinkecon.wordpress.com/2022/12/13/what-when-wrong-when-and-how/
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The Tory party wants a smaller public sector.
Always has. Always will. It's their guiding principle.
Trouble for them is that the vast majority of the British people don't want fewer nurses or coppers or teachers.
So the Tories do it by stealth. They are deliberately choosing to screw down public sector pay over both the long term, through Austerity, and now, very aggressively through massively below-inflation pay rises.
The effect of this will be fewer well qualified, ambitious people going into or staying in the public sector.
That's the unspoken purpose of these policies.
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All well and good but is a 19% pay increase either valid or right for nurses?
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I think the 19% is a little spurious, it is up to 19%, with the higher rates for the lower paid staff not across the board. But hey let's just give a round of applause on Saturday at 3.00 that should do
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Worth pointing out that the pay recommendation the government is clinging to is from last February. We're in a dramatically different situation now.
Think they will have a harder time trying to paint the nurses as militant, which is the only argument they have.
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The 19% claim comes from how much nurses real pay has fallen under the Tories.
19% reduction in pay!
No-one believes they will get that in one go. It's a negotiating position.
In Scotland, nurses settled for something around 8%.
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It suits the Tories for them to be on strike and with the other unions take the blame for trashing the economy when it needs to be recovering.
It also put's the pressure and limelight on the Labour Party who for the first time in a couple of years need to make a policy decision of what they back and who on a topic they cannot win on.
Since the miners strike all governments have known if they take the long run public sympathy will reduce over time, and especially when it starts to affect the public itself, and with any public service that is eventually forced to happen.
In this case the main aim will be to cast as much bad publicity and blame on the Labour Party, and the Tories will not mind a bad winter and public services taking the majority of the blame, and the Labour Party between a rock and a hard place.
The one point that is better than the miners strike is that it will affect the south of England with the most population worse than in this area for once, with regard to travel, health and their big population centres, and power for heating and lighting.
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The company who I work for have offered us a pay rise that equates to 11.1% which is exactly last month's inflation level .
Now what's different is that they have offered a percentage pay rise and a cost of living lump sum payment to make that figure up to 11.1% .
This obviously protects them from offering the 11.1% as a pay increase per se which would be for the lifetime of our employment but it still factors in the cost of living crisis for its employees at least for the next 12 months .
A win - win for employer and employee in my opinion .
Possibly something that could be looked at by those sectors and the unions currently taking industrial action .
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As a report says that the lead of the Labour Party has been cut from 30 points to 11 points in a survey.
What now stabber?
Dunno. What do you reckon Selby?
Westminster Voting Intention:
LAB: 45% (+3)
CON: 29% (-2)
LDM: 8% (-2)
RFM: 6% (+1)
SNP: 3% (-1)
GRN: 3% (=)
Via @Savanta_UK 9-11 Dec.
Changes w/ 2-4 Dec.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1603450217252241409
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Take no notice of polls
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Assuming the polls today tell us what will happen in 2024 is foolish.
Ignoring them altogether is way more foolish.
Labour are currently 17% ahead on average in the polls. They've been 15-30% ahead ever since the Kwasikwame budget.
No guarantee Labour will win in 2024 of course. But in my lifetime, no ruling party has been this far behind for this long, this close to an election, and not been battered when the election came.
Nearest exception was the Tories in 1992. They were well behind 2 years out, but the very worst it got was 17% deficit and even that only lasted very briefly. Today that is the BEST it's been for them in nearly 3 months. Plus of course, in 1990, the Tories had a trump card. They could get rid of Thatcher and replace her with someone not remotely as detested in the country. This time, the Tories have already played that one. Twice.
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Another comparison between now and 1992 is Labour's weak party leaders.
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I can see some right-wing tories going to Reform party but I can’t see any centrist Labour folk going to Lib Dems.
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Who would make the best PM?
Keir Starmer: 32% (+3)
Rishi Sunak: 24% (-)
Not sure / refused: 44% (-3)
Via @YouGov, 14-15 Dec (+/- since 6-7 Dec)
'Labour's weak party leaders'. Doesn't say much for Sunak then.
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The company who I work for have offered us a pay rise that equates to 11.1% which is exactly last month's inflation level .
Now what's different is that they have offered a percentage pay rise and a cost of living lump sum payment to make that figure up to 11.1% .
This obviously protects them from offering the 11.1% as a pay increase per se which would be for the lifetime of our employment but it still factors in the cost of living crisis for its employees at least for the next 12 months .
A win - win for employer and employee in my opinion .
Possibly something that could be looked at by those sectors and the unions currently taking industrial action .
I work on the railway and as part of the RMT I have seen first hand how the public sector workers are treated and that each individual deserves a pay rise as people in my industry I see work really hard and should be rewarded for their efforts especially during Covid.
However and what is apparent when you look on the publications for double down news etc is that the Government can afford to give tax breaks for non-dom status, give out contracts for PPE during Covid and Test and Trace to the tune of billions of pounds however they can't afford to give workers a pay rise.
Here are the links to tell you exactly what is happening in this country, you just don't realise it and it affects everyone.
https://www.doubledown.news/
https://leftfootforward.org/?doing_wp_cron=1671347277.2530579566955566406250
https://wesayenough.co.uk/
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Don't use your car
Don't go running
Don't play sport
Don't get drunk
Don't read the effin' sun ............... or the effin' mail
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Mick Lynch on why trade unions are essential to the protection of hard won benefits for working people:
https://youtu.be/icFkbb_cOYA
Ask yourself who stands against the actions of the TU, and what they stand to gain from doing so!
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Does anyone actually have to listen to ML to understand that Albie? most working people have access to trade unions or 'professional' associations as some prefer to call them, most working people owe there standard of living to those that went before and sacrificed their freedom and sometimes their lives in the process. The struggle continues and will always continue as the hard won gains of yesterday and today are easily be lost when personal gain precedes that of the majority.
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Does anyone actually have to listen to ML to understand that Albie? most working people have access to trade unions or 'professional' associations as some prefer to call them, most working people owe there standard of living to those that went before and sacrificed their freedom and sometimes their lives in the process. The struggle continues and will always continue as the hard won gains of yesterday and today are easily be lost when personal gain precedes that of the majority.
What do you mean by “personal gain” here?
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Does anyone actually have to listen to ML to understand that Albie? most working people have access to trade unions or 'professional' associations as some prefer to call them, most working people owe there standard of living to those that went before and sacrificed their freedom and sometimes their lives in the process. The struggle continues and will always continue as the hard won gains of yesterday and today are easily be lost when personal gain precedes that of the majority.
What do you mean by “personal gain” here?
A situation where a person receives benefit of wages growth better conditions etc but refuses to join an available union and or vote for a party that supports better outcomes for working people, the majority.
Think of it as a society that pays for the maintenance and constant regeneration of what was built and paid for by previous generations, NHS, roads, police, services, transport etc. All this helps to maintain a cohesive society where people should be able to have a roof over theirs heads, eat, work if they are able and be helped when times are tough.
There is another way it's called America and the user pays.
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Rowan Williams in the Guardian
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When you look at recent leaders around the world is it better place with such as trump, bolsanaro, putin, johnson, truss ..........