Are industrial strikes losing the Labour Party votes

[ncRover]

I stopped reading Crace as his lines had become a bit samey, but this relates to the discussion in hand don't you think?

''Irony dies as Tories accuse Labour of using the NHS as a political football''

''Crisis? What crisis? Inflation running at 12%. The economy heading for recession. The UK ranked 38 out of 38 in the most recent OECD forecasts. Now that’s what I call world-beating. The Conservatives’ poll ratings tanking by the hour. Half the country voting for industrial action. It’s harder to find someone not planning to go on strike these days''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/irony-dies-tories-accuse-labour-using-nhs-as-political-football

This is where I end up dissociating from political debates.

The 2008 recession was not Labour’s fault. The conservatives proposition before the crash was to match Labour’s spending. But the tories put the blame on them.

In the same way, this current financial crisis is not the conservative’s fault. Labour would not have stopped Covid or Putin’s invasion. But they put the blame on the tories.

[ncRover]

Health spending trend over the last decade shows an increase every year of conservative government. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

Money needs to be spent, but it has to be spent in the correct way or it will just get sucked in to the black hole of an inefficient system.

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005876004818944?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005880534712320?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg

One of these graphs does show that the % GDP spending on healthcare has gone down actually though. But note how much we have to spend on hospital care compared to other countries.

The problem is very complex. Does the NHS need a restructure?

[SydneyRover]

You have overlooked a small detail nc, the tories have been in gov't for over 12 years, it's certainly not labour's fault, the economy was sent in a downward spiral with Austerity, it was never in a good position to stand any shocks, then Brexit, look at the reports that put the UK at the bottom of the heap with Russia as other economies have progressed.

[SydneyRover]

Health spending trend over the last decade shows an increase every year of conservative government. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

Money needs to be spent, but it has to be spent in the correct way or it will just get sucked in to the black hole of an inefficient system.

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005876004818944?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005880534712320?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg

One of these graphs does show that the % GDP spending on healthcare has gone down actually though. But note how much we have to spend on hospital care compared to other countries.

''Decade of neglect means NHS unable to tackle care backlog, report says
Exclusive: Government-commissioned paper pinpoints budget squeeze as key reason for service’s loss of capacity''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/decade-of-neglect-means-nhs-unable-to-tackle-care-backlog-report-says

[ncRover]

You have overlooked a small detail nc, the tories have been in gov't for over 12 years, it's certainly not labour's fault, the economy was sent in a downward spiral with Austerity, it was never in a good position to stand any shocks, then Brexit, look at the reports that put the UK at the bottom of the heap with Russia as other economies have progressed.

Yes we have stagnated and I believe Brexit was not necessary.

But at present are we doing much worse than other large European countries? I’d like to see the latest data on this if anyone has it?

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/7d0086da-78af-11ed-8dd6-146590878cf8?shareToken=8e088a82c1ca7596b6f4cb330d3ae207

[ncRover]

Health spending trend over the last decade shows an increase every year of conservative government. https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/nhs-in-a-nutshell/nhs-budget

Money needs to be spent, but it has to be spent in the correct way or it will just get sucked in to the black hole of an inefficient system.

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005876004818944?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg

https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1562005880534712320?s=46&t=BRK-9A7bgEipOrFwzvNoFg

One of these graphs does show that the % GDP spending on healthcare has gone down actually though. But note how much we have to spend on hospital care compared to other countries.

''Decade of neglect means NHS unable to tackle care backlog, report says
Exclusive: Government-commissioned paper pinpoints budget squeeze as key reason for service’s loss of capacity''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/decade-of-neglect-means-nhs-unable-to-tackle-care-backlog-report-says

“The paper by the King’s Fund health thinktank says years of denying funding to the health service and failing to address its growing workforce crisis have left it with too few staff, too little equipment and too many outdated buildings to perform the amount of surgery needed.”

I think that sums it up well. Infrastructure, IT, technology all need investing in also.

How does the NHS compare to France’s insurance supported healthcare system in terms of outcomes? The solely public-funded NHS is an outlier in this respect in today’s times.

Like I said the money needs spending in the right way or it will just get sucked up.

Our ageing population and unhealthy population surely must be a factor also. The baby boomer generation are now in to their 70s. The UK fertility rate has been below the replacement rate of 2 for decades now. Who is going to look after all these old people? We need immigration to stop our society collapsing.

[SydneyRover]

I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc

[ncRover]

I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc

There was me thinking you were in a polite mood today!

[SydneyRover]

Just because johnson was driven out doesn't mean that the ₤350 million/week cannot still be used, it's still there isn't it?

I wonder why, if the tories were spending more money on the NHS that they would need that sort of money so badly and of course the 40 new hospitals.

[SydneyRover]

I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc

There was me thinking you were in a polite mood today!

Being direct and to the point is being polite where I come from.

[ncRover]

I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc

There was me thinking you were in a polite mood today!

Being direct and to the point is being polite where I come from.

I thought I made some balanced points and proposed some good questions to expand the debate to be honest. Not everything has to be an argument.

Like I said % GDP spending on healthcare has gone down. They need to commit to the NHS or explore other options, it can’t be half-arsed.

[SydneyRover]

I'm not going through all this again while you try to rewrite history nc

There was me thinking you were in a polite mood today!

Being direct and to the point is being polite where I come from.

I thought I made some balanced points and proposed some good questions to expand the debate to be honest. Not everything has to be an argument.

An argument is where topics are discussed, all the topics have been discussed and the jury came in on all the salient points quite some time ago, about austerity, about brexit, about economic growth and about the NHS and the tory neglect, it's all there in the OBR reports and the latest Government report in the NHS and why there are 7.2 million people on the waiting list.

[ncRover]

What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?

[SydneyRover]

What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?

As I have just had two weeks in hospital I can tell you there are problems but nothing is perfect, I am agitating for mandatory reporting of all adverse outcomes as I believe that if problems are not reported correctly the system will struggle to improve. The newly installed labor government has put money up to reduce waiting lists and is opening walk up care centres to take the load off the hospitals.

There is medicare (read NHS) and a private sector, I refuse on principle to use the private sector though I can well afford it. It keeps me grounded.

[Not Now Kato]

What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?

Good question nc, and it would be interesting to know.  If it's anything like the USA, then it's not something I'd like to see over here.
 
A good friend of mine has been working in the US for quite a number of years and, as a perk of his job had his and his wife's medical insurance paid for by the company he worked for, as a benefit of that job.  When he retired the medical insurance was $500 a month for the two of them.

[ncRover]

What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?

As I have just had two weeks in hospital I can tell you there are problems but nothing is perfect, I am agitating for mandatory reporting of all adverse outcomes as I believe that if problems are not reported correctly the system will struggle to improve. The newly installed labor government has put money up to reduce waiting lists and is opening walk up care centres to take the load off the hospitals.

There is medicare (read NHS) and a private sector, I refuse on principle to use the private sector though I can well afford it. It keeps me grounded.

Sorry to hear, I hope you’re feeling better.

[SydneyRover]

It's not at all like the US system but the private sector is growing, well see how effective labor is over their 3 year term. Labor brought in medicare in the early 70s and everyone has a card. Those on invalid pension, pensions, welfare etc get treatment free but have to wait especially the further one is from a capital city. There is a medicare levy (read national insurance) if you don;t have private insurance you pay more tax which I did, there were junk insurance policies that gave you nothing except the right to pay less tax but I think they are being phased out. All those that are working have to pay a gap fee to see their GP and specialists. There is a chronic shortage of doctors in the outback. Labor may have made it's first blunder as they changed a system where doctors arriving from O/S had to work for around 5-10 years remotely before working in the city labor reduce that remote distance to attract more doctors but most doctors wnat to work closer to a capital therefore less going to remote centre.

[SydneyRover]

What is Australia’s healthcare model like and how is it faring Sydney?

As I have just had two weeks in hospital I can tell you there are problems but nothing is perfect, I am agitating for mandatory reporting of all adverse outcomes as I believe that if problems are not reported correctly the system will struggle to improve. The newly installed labor government has put money up to reduce waiting lists and is opening walk up care centres to take the load off the hospitals.

There is medicare (read NHS) and a private sector, I refuse on principle to use the private sector though I can well afford it. It keeps me grounded.

Sorry to hear, I hope you’re feeling better.

Thank you, I had my elbow serviced but got g/staph too which delayed my recovery somewhat, I hope to play a short round of golf maybe in Feb.

[Colin C No.3]

Sydney. I hope your elbow recovers sufficiently well to enable you to bring down bush tucker with your boomerang.

[selby]

  How's the two lads in the beds next to you doing  Syd?

[scawsby steve]

Sydney. I hope your elbow recovers sufficiently well to enable you to bring down bush tucker with your boomerang.

It'll be like that one of Charlie Drake's, and won't f*cking well come back.

[tyke1962]

  How's the two lads in the beds next to you doing  Syd?

Now that did make me laugh out loud , quality .

 

[SydneyRover]

  How's the two lads in the beds next to you doing  Syd?

They can't stop laughing since I showed them your comments brian

[wilts rover]

"Bloody nurses! To think we risked our lives clapping for them in all weathers while there was a deadly virus around!"

"They're enemies of the people. Just like all the other enemies that are starting to outnumber the people"

Colin from Portsmouth vs the nurses' strike.

https://twitter.com/Exploding_Heads/status/1602627914759131136

[wilts rover]

All the best with your recovery Syd.

[SydneyRover]

Cheer wilts, I'm fine now just a bit of rehab.

[SydneyRover]

Sydney. I hope your elbow recovers sufficiently well to enable you to bring down bush tucker with your boomerang.

It'll be like that one of Charlie Drake's, and won't f*cking well come back.

Hey Steve, next time you are talking to Mick, ask if he would like a labour government next or another tory disaster.

[SydneyRover]

Wow just read a headline that sunak was going to clear the backlog by the end of next year, then I read he was talking about Albanians not the NHS, got to get your priorities right aye.

vote tory

[BillyStubbsTears]

I stopped reading Crace as his lines had become a bit samey, but this relates to the discussion in hand don't you think?

''Irony dies as Tories accuse Labour of using the NHS as a political football''

''Crisis? What crisis? Inflation running at 12%. The economy heading for recession. The UK ranked 38 out of 38 in the most recent OECD forecasts. Now that’s what I call world-beating. The Conservatives’ poll ratings tanking by the hour. Half the country voting for industrial action. It’s harder to find someone not planning to go on strike these days''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/irony-dies-tories-accuse-labour-using-nhs-as-political-football

This is where I end up dissociating from political debates.

The 2008 recession was not Labour’s fault. The conservatives proposition before the crash was to match Labour’s spending. But the tories put the blame on them.

In the same way, this current financial crisis is not the conservative’s fault. Labour would not have stopped Covid or Putin’s invasion. But they put the blame on the tories.

There's a certain amount of truth there, but it goes only so far.

In 2008, we'd had 15 years of good growth in the economy. Ken Clarke had managed things well for the Tories after the self-inflicted recession of the early 90s and the self-inflicted disaster of Black Wednesday. For once, the Tories used sensible, textbook economic policy. And it worked. Brown continued that for a decade, so when the global crash happened, we were in a reasonably strong position. And Brown then brought in absolutely the correct policies to prevent the GFC becoming a second Great Depression. Govt borrowing and spending in those circumstances is exactly the right thing to do, no matter what Osborne and Cameron said about the deficit.

Absolutely, the current Govt can't be blamed for COVID and Putin's War being the root of the current economic problem.

But.

When these problems hit, we'd had the absolute disaster of a decade of below average growth, all because of the insane policy of Austerity. We lost 1% growth every year throughout the 10s. The cumulative result of that is scarcely credible. If we had had growth through the 10s that we'd had from 93-08, we'd have had over £1trn extra economic activity. That would have been enough to send an extra 10,000,000 kids to university, put solar panels on every house in the country, build 200 new hospitals and still have enough to give £7000 to every man woman and child in the country.

We lost that. Never coming back. So we were already much weaker when the external problems hit.

And then, to cap it all, the Tory party chose a leader who implemented the most crazy voodoo economic experiment in decades. Despite being told by everyone who understood economic theory that it would be a disaster (including Sunak to be fair).

So yes, neither Govt should be blamed for the underlying causes of the external shocks. But the previous policies and the reaction to the problem were vastly different in the two cases. And that is what domestic Governments CAN affect. Labour were broadly right. The Tories have been catastrophically wrong.

[wilts rover]

An interesting blog post here on why public sector workers are not the cause of the current inflation/cost of living mess - but the victims of it. Summed up by:

'The political failure (by successive Tory governments since 2010) was a simple one: to pretend to the public that they can have the services they need, with a regular diet of budget day tax gifts too. Today’s public sector problems, no matter how much they were triggered by Putin, are exacerbated by that simple, sustained failure of leadership.'

https://freethinkecon.wordpress.com/2022/12/13/what-when-wrong-when-and-how/