Are industrial strikes losing the Labour Party votes

[roversdude]

Absolutely disgraceful the same people the government were lauding during covid have suddenly become spawn of the devil. They (Government) need to make the NHS an attractive place to work or the understaffing is going to spiral

[Not Now Kato]

But the government can turn down the independent recommendations.

Well, yes. I imagine recommendation is just that, and not binding.

Pity you couldn’t accept that on another subject that’s damaging the country!

[Bentley Bullet]

What?

[ravenrover]

Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the  Government, who accepted their recommendations?

So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?

I imagine the government does on the recommendation of the NHSPRB.

So the dispute is between the Union and The Government? Yes?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I am a bit conflicted. Yes there's cost of living issues quite clearly.  But I'm not sure striking is quite the right way to go about it and actually I think a lot of people will feel worried about lack of care when nurses or paramedics strike.  There's a valid point that 3% isn't enough but there does have to be a limit.

On the point though I'm not sure there's a big appetite to support strikes in the depth of a cold winter at all.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP

1) If 3% is not enough, but your employer is insisting they will offer no more than 3%, you only have 2 choices.
-Accept an offer that you yourself say is too low.
-Take industrial action.

There's literally no alternative. If you think the offer is too low to accept, you have no option but to support the industrial action.

2) If you think the 3% offer is unacceptably low, and there is industrial action, and patients suffer, follow the logical trail to decide who is to blame for patients suffering.

[ncRover]

Absolutely disgraceful the same people the government were lauding during covid have suddenly become spawn of the devil. They (Government) need to make the NHS an attractive place to work or the understaffing is going to spiral

Correct. Which will make it less and less efficient to run and it will just swallow up any money that is thrown at it. Sometimes spending some extra money stops you losing money in the future.

[Bentley Bullet]

Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the  Government, who accepted their recommendations?

So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?

I imagine the government does on the recommendation of the NHSPRB.

So the dispute is between the Union and The Government? Yes?

The NHSPRB provides an independent recommendation to the  Government. The Government accepted the recommendation. The Union doesn't accept the recommendation so ultimately the dispute is between the Union and the Government.

[SydneyRover]

Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the  Government, who accepted their recommendations?

So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?

I imagine the government does on the recommendation of the NHSPRB.

So the dispute is between the Union and The Government? Yes?

The NHSPRB provides an independent recommendation to the  Government. The Government accepted the recommendation. The Union doesn't accept the recommendation so ultimately the dispute is between the Union and the Government.

The union puts the information to its members, offers advice (which is what they are paid to do) and then acts upon the wishes of it's members, what would you advise nurses to do under these circumstances bb?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP

1) If 3% is not enough, but your employer is insisting they will offer no more than 3%, you only have 2 choices.
-Accept an offer that you yourself say is too low.
-Take industrial action.

There's literally no alternative. If you think the offer is too low to accept, you have no option but to support the industrial action.

2) If you think the 3% offer is unacceptably low, and there is industrial action, and patients suffer, follow the logical trail to decide who is to blame for patients suffering.

Or they could campaign, make much more noise, protest etc.  I can't really support risking the health of patients personally.

Fwiw, in our business we all got pay cuts this year as that's how our contracts work, different scenario as we could just go elsewhere.  I don't feel that 5% for nurses would break the bank personally.

I disagree more with those striking over reforms eg the royal mail staff.  They need to accept change is needed.

[SydneyRover]

If you haven't heard the noise being made already pud you aint been listening

Noise added

''Protesters march for fair pay for nurses and other NHS staff

This article is more than 2 years old

More than 30 marches due on Saturday in recognition of work during coronavirus pandemic''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/aug/08/hundreds-march-fair-pay-nhs-nurses-coronavirus

[ravenrover]

Didn't the NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) provide independent advice to the  Government, who accepted their recommendations?

So who awards the pay offer to the NHS?

I imagine the government does on the recommendation of the NHSPRB.

So the dispute is between the Union and The Government? Yes?

The NHSPRB provides an independent recommendation to the  Government. The Government accepted the recommendation. The Union doesn't accept the recommendation so ultimately the dispute is between the Union and the Government.

Yay!
However regarding the Pay Body......

Who is pay Review Body for NHS?
The NHS Pay Review Body (NHSPRB) advises on the pay of NHS staff. NHSPRB is an advisory non-departmental public body, sponsored by the Department of Health and Social Care.

[Bentley Bullet]

And?

[ravenrover]

I read an inference in a previous reply that the pay body was part of the NHS, apologies if I'm incorrect

[Ldr]

RR it’s independent but serves as a useful stooge for the government. If the government agrees with the recommendations it becomes a pay award rather than a pay offer which bypasses for a large chunk of nhs staff union consultation. Hence why staff covered under agenda for change have received on average 4% in September backdated to April. It’s been a few years since they have not done this.

[ravenrover]

Yes that was my point, the pay offer is advisory the Government implement it hence the dispute is between them and the nurses

[Ldr]

Correct

[albie]

Pet Shop Boy Wes Streeting sets out the Labour position on the health dispute in the Torygraph;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/10/labour-vows-war-hostile-health-unions/

At least we are clear whose side he is on, if there were any lingering doubts!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Pet Shop Boy Wes Streeting sets out the Labour position on the health dispute in the Torygraph;
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/12/10/labour-vows-war-hostile-health-unions/

At least we are clear whose side he is on, if there were any lingering doubts!

Did you actually read that article before you posted it Albie?

[albie]

BST,

Of course I read it before posting, what a silly remark.

If you read it, you will see Wes thinks that a pay deal in the health service is unaffordable,
"Mr Streeting said a Labour government could not afford the pay rises nurses are seeking"...er, why not?

Governments have tax raising powers.
So it is possible to raise funds by increasing tax responsibilities of the wealthy, those with the broadest shoulders etc.

Alternatively, we could level up capital gains with the income tax regime, or cancel the cut in stamp duty.

Nurses pay is 20% below the level it was at in 2010 in real terms.
According to the TUC, that is a £5k reduction, and over £1800 of that in 2022.
Paramedics and midwives have a similar erosion of living standards.

What Wes is saying is that Labour have no appetite to restore health workers to a parity with pre-austerity levels of pay.

The further pay falls behind, the more difficult it will be to recruit and retain staff.
Do you think Wes is sponsored by private health interests?

If that is acceptable to you, it will not be to trade unionists.

Thin end of the wedge, BST.

[scawsby steve]

I don't think there's any doubt as to what Labour would do about these strikes if they were in power right now.

Exactly the same as the Tories.

[SydneyRover]

Is that why you allowed them into power SS?

[scawsby steve]

Is that why you allowed them into power SS?

Who, Labour or the Tories? A bit of an irrelevance if they're both the same as regards support for the unions.

What about YOU? Do you support the unions, or do you just support Keith?

[SydneyRover]

SS you keep on asking the same silly questions aye but never make yourself accountable, tell who you voted for since 2010

[scawsby steve]

SS you keep on asking the same silly questions aye but never make yourself accountable, tell who you voted for since 2010

Oh, I'm accountable alright, I support Mick Lynch and the RMT, and ALL the striking unions this Winter.

If Keith does the same, and puts forward a credible package to help the poorest in society to cope with the cost of living crisis, then I MIGHT even vote for him.

[SydneyRover]

I guess the bigger question in all this is why do medical staff require a 17.6% to make their wages up, if in fact your (anyone) personal voting pattern since 2010 allowed the tories in then you are partly responsible, is that not a reasonable statement?

[SydneyRover]

SS you keep on asking the same silly questions aye but never make yourself accountable, tell who you voted for since 2010

Oh, I'm accountable alright, I support Mick Lynch and the RMT, and ALL the striking unions this Winter.

If Keith does the same, and puts forward a credible package to help the poorest in society to cope with the cost of living crisis, then I MIGHT even vote for him.

so ok if I accept what you have just written, what have you done to support them?

[SydneyRover]

Come on Steve it can't be that difficult, have you paid union dues, marched. what have you done?

[BillyStubbsTears]

You have a strange concept of wage negotiation Albie.

Do you genuinely think the nurses are expecting to get their wage demands satisfied in full? Do you think any union ever sets out an initial negotiating position as what they actually expect to win? And that any Govt negotiation that settles for something less than the union demand is a betrayal?

You DO know how negotiations work?

And I have to admit, when someone like you, apparently of the Left, pushes a story from the Telegraph with a headline about a shadow minister declaring "war on hostile unions" (when quotes in the article didn't remotely support such a claim) I do have to wonder about why you don't point out that gross misrepresentation.

I know you are struggling to cope with the fact that this Labour party is actually going to win the next Election, form a Government and actually be able to shape policy, rather than indulge it's collective conscience, but I'm surprised that is clouding your logic to this extent.

[SydneyRover]

I stopped reading Crace as his lines had become a bit samey, but this relates to the discussion in hand don't you think?

''Irony dies as Tories accuse Labour of using the NHS as a political football''

''Crisis? What crisis? Inflation running at 12%. The economy heading for recession. The UK ranked 38 out of 38 in the most recent OECD forecasts. Now that’s what I call world-beating. The Conservatives’ poll ratings tanking by the hour. Half the country voting for industrial action. It’s harder to find someone not planning to go on strike these days''

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/12/irony-dies-tories-accuse-labour-using-nhs-as-political-football