Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: steve@dcfd on March 29, 2023, 08:43:27 am
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Has done an interview in YP very heart felt and tells it how it is now at the club. It is what we all knew and shows extra investment is required to improve our status.
One quote that shows how it is
My role is to look at what we've got available and make resources based on that, not want we want. We're a League Two club with the average League Two budget.”
But it is a battle. He uses the word “relentless” more than once. Just speaking to him you can feel how draining it must be.
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-exclusive-part-two-james-coppinger-is-swimming-against-the-tide-most-days-but-weve-started-the-ball-rolling-4083372
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At last!
Perhaps we can now all stop having a verbal go at one another re budgets (or the lack thereof).
Hallelujah.
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Can anyone say, hand on heart that extra funds into the playing budget would make a blind bit of difference to this clown manager that we currently have?
We’d still have a gap the size of the Atlantic behind the isolated striker. We’d still have ‘wing backs’ that barely cross the halfway line. We’d still play at snails pace. We’d still put no crosses into the box. And we’d still concede at will at the back as the centre halves are already signed up for next year. Most of this is playing to instruction. Just because our players are shit, it shouldn’t stop them trying this if they were allowed. So surely the same restrictions would be placed upon ‘better’ players.
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I'd like to know how and why we've gone from budget to compete in league 1 for the play offs to mid table league 2 budget.
It's of course the board's perogative to do so but why and also if that's what they want why are they not actively looking to move on as it is not what us fans want.
We should not accept mediocrity.
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We’ve gone from a top 6 league 1 budget, to top 10 league 1 budget, mid table league 1 budget, one of the biggest league 2 budgets, top 6 league 2 budget to average league 2 budget in a very short space of time. Maybe all those managers that were saying the budget wasn’t as big as we were being told weren’t lying after all…
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Well reading that just confirms what we all know. We desperately need new investment otherwise we have to accept the fact that we are only going in one direction. AND IT'S NOT UPWARDS.
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His memory must be failing.
I remember us being in the play offs twice in his time playing for us.
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Spot on Cramby! Budget levels have nothing to do with stubborn tactics and lack of flexibility and lack of passion and effort from the players!
Ask Accrington Stanley.
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Spot on Cramby! Budget levels have nothing to do with stubborn tactics and lack of flexibility and lack of passion and effort from the players!
Ask Accrington Stanley.
Yes I agree with the stubborn tactics but the level of players we can sign to play those tactics whether permanent or loan is decreasing year on year. The Chairman said we would Bounce Back Decisively if we have an average league 2 budget then where did he get his evidence from that we could achieve that. So yes the manager as his faults but lack of investment has played apart.
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Make next season a bit easier to swallow and lump your season ticket money on us being relegated.
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He speaks asif we are overachieving and doing well.
We are 22nd in the form table and playing the worst football we have seen in 10+ years.
Very concerning.
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I'd like to know how and why we've gone from budget to compete in league 1 for the play offs to mid table league 2 budget.
It's of course the board's perogative to do so but why and also if that's what they want why are they not actively looking to move on as it is not what us fans want.
We should not accept mediocrity.
have we had a top 6 budget thou, look at the downgrade in not just permanent players but loan players, I think the board have said what they want supporters to hear not what the truth is
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I'd like to know how and why we've gone from budget to compete in league 1 for the play offs to mid table league 2 budget.
It's of course the board's perogative to do so but why and also if that's what they want why are they not actively looking to move on as it is not what us fans want.
We should not accept mediocrity.
have we had a top 6 budget thou, look at the downgrade in not just permanent players but loan players, I think the board have said what they want supporters to hear not what the truth is
I’ve already talked about the January window and how it affected the budgets of those clubs around us in terms of budgets.
We started the season with a budget that would put us in about 6th place, but, as I said earlier this week, there are a bunch of clubs that are close to us in terms of playing budget, and we have calculated that the window saw us drop a few places. The club are still of the opinion that we are in the top 10.
There are other pressures, not least of which is the massive increase in the utility costs which wasn’t planned for, but my understanding is that TB is handling that.
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Do other clubs not have to pay the lecky bill?
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Being 12th in the table is nowhere near a true reflection of this lot.
We are very lucky to be where we are, with the dire, turgid, error strewn garbage we've been watching for the last two seasons
I can see us being in the bottom 6 by the end of the season.
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Sounds like covering for our poor performance to me. Making it acceptable to keep on ax we are.
Steve Jones of DFP has done a thread on Twitter showing the announced budget competitiveness over the last few years. Shows it’s the 1st time we’ve said the budget reflects where we actually are.
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Do other clubs not have to pay the lecky bill?
Of course they do, but I mention it for context, especially when the latest demand was for an immediate payment of £325k.
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Do other clubs not have to pay the lecky bill?
Of course they do, but I mention it for context, especially when the latest demand was for an immediate payment of £325k.
So have the other 23 clubs budgeted for this or are they likely in the creek? Surely our utility bills are similar to everyone else's?
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That interview is at total odds with previous statements coming out of the club.
As has been stated many times, we have been told constantly that we have a very good budget for the level at which we are playing.
Despite the evidence before us all in terms of players sold and not replaced, crap players being recruited, crap loans, deadline day farces etc.etc. I chose to believe most of what I was told.
I have always been one to be grateful to the owners for a stable club (and still am) but I now feel like the people who have been questioning the truth of club statements over the past few years are correct.
This is a massive issue for me and I'm afraid I am now looking at the situation in a very different light.
That interview feels like a watershed moment for me and, I'm willing to bet, many others.
The other alternative is that Copps is "doing a Conte" and looking for a way out.
Feels like this is going to set fire to an already heated relationship between the fans and the board.
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The club is dieing and for the people who think they are 'in the know', it's crystal clear they aren't. Being spoon-fed lies and then putting them on here doesn't make them truths.
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The club is dieing and for the people who think they are 'in the know', it's crystal clear they aren't. Being spoon-fed lies and then putting them on here doesn't make them truths.
The accounts we see every season must be falsified accounting then!!
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The club is dieing and for the people who think they are 'in the know', it's crystal clear they aren't. Being spoon-fed lies and then putting them on here doesn't make them truths.
The accounts we see every season must be falsified accounting then!!
Interesting how you equate 'a club' as being purely financial.
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SM, what's your opinion on our downfall? As a Rovers fan, not with your representative hat on.
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I'd like to know how and why we've gone from budget to compete in league 1 for the play offs to mid table league 2 budget.
It's of course the board's perogative to do so but why and also if that's what they want why are they not actively looking to move on as it is not what us fans want.
We should not accept mediocrity.
have we had a top 6 budget thou, look at the downgrade in not just permanent players but loan players, I think the board have said what they want supporters to hear not what the truth is
I’ve already talked about the January window and how it affected the budgets of those clubs around us in terms of budgets.
We started the season with a budget that would put us in about 6th place, but, as I said earlier this week, there are a bunch of clubs that are close to us in terms of playing budget, and we have calculated that the window saw us drop a few places. The club are still of the opinion that we are in the top 10.
There are other pressures, not least of which is the massive increase in the utility costs which wasn’t planned for, but my understanding is that TB is handling that.
Are we the only club to have such rising bills?
Same with the covid excuse… apparently we were the only club to suffer through covid as well.
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SM, what's your opinion on our downfall? As a Rovers fan, not with your representative hat on.
I suspect if SM gave his personal opinion to all and sundry while wearing his supporter's hat it may affect the trust he is given when wearing his representative hat.
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I'd like to know how and why we've gone from budget to compete in league 1 for the play offs to mid table league 2 budget.
It's of course the board's perogative to do so but why and also if that's what they want why are they not actively looking to move on as it is not what us fans want.
We should not accept mediocrity.
have we had a top 6 budget thou, look at the downgrade in not just permanent players but loan players, I think the board have said what they want supporters to hear not what the truth is
I’ve already talked about the January window and how it affected the budgets of those clubs around us in terms of budgets.
We started the season with a budget that would put us in about 6th place, but, as I said earlier this week, there are a bunch of clubs that are close to us in terms of playing budget, and we have calculated that the window saw us drop a few places. The club are still of the opinion that we are in the top 10.
There are other pressures, not least of which is the massive increase in the utility costs which wasn’t planned for, but my understanding is that TB is handling that.
is that what a club looking to “bounce back decisively” would do? We still had a chance of playoffs in January and decided to reduce our budget
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If coppinger can’t get the purse strings loosened then there really are dark days ahead.
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SM, what's your opinion on our downfall? As a Rovers fan, not with your representative hat on.
I suspect if SM gave his personal opinion to all and sundry while wearing his supporter's hat it may affect the trust he is given when wearing his representative hat.
Fair enough.
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The club is dieing and for the people who think they are 'in the know', it's crystal clear they aren't. Being spoon-fed lies and then putting them on here doesn't make them truths.
The accounts we see every season must be falsified accounting then!!
The accounts you see is what has been they don’t show what is required to Bounce Back Decisively. We know financially we are trying to be sustainable we know like every supporter and football club in this country that Electrical Bills are going up.
But the football side of the club is getting worse. We are not truly investing in it we are scraping through. By doing this the supporters are dwindling away so when it comes to the summer we will have less money to invest in the squad. The manager and HOF will get what they can afford not what we need to get us out of the league. It’s a downward spiral and TB said we will find our level if this continues then our level will be lower.
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I'd like to know how and why we've gone from budget to compete in league 1 for the play offs to mid table league 2 budget.
It's of course the board's perogative to do so but why and also if that's what they want why are they not actively looking to move on as it is not what us fans want.
We should not accept mediocrity.
have we had a top 6 budget thou, look at the downgrade in not just permanent players but loan players, I think the board have said what they want supporters to hear not what the truth is
I’ve already talked about the January window and how it affected the budgets of those clubs around us in terms of budgets.
We started the season with a budget that would put us in about 6th place, but, as I said earlier this week, there are a bunch of clubs that are close to us in terms of playing budget, and we have calculated that the window saw us drop a few places. The club are still of the opinion that we are in the top 10.
There are other pressures, not least of which is the massive increase in the utility costs which wasn’t planned for, but my understanding is that TB is handling that.
Maybe the other two owners could chip in with some help too? Seems a bit unfair that the utilities bills fall to TB alone when he only owns a third of the club.....
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I'd like to know how and why we've gone from budget to compete in league 1 for the play offs to mid table league 2 budget.
It's of course the board's perogative to do so but why and also if that's what they want why are they not actively looking to move on as it is not what us fans want.
We should not accept mediocrity.
have we had a top 6 budget thou, look at the downgrade in not just permanent players but loan players, I think the board have said what they want supporters to hear not what the truth is
I’ve already talked about the January window and how it affected the budgets of those clubs around us in terms of budgets.
We started the season with a budget that would put us in about 6th place, but, as I said earlier this week, there are a bunch of clubs that are close to us in terms of playing budget, and we have calculated that the window saw us drop a few places. The club are still of the opinion that we are in the top 10.
There are other pressures, not least of which is the massive increase in the utility costs which wasn’t planned for, but my understanding is that TB is handling that.
is that what a club looking to “bounce back decisively” would do? We still had a chance of playoffs in January and decided to reduce our budget
As SO'D used to say... if you stand still in football, you go backwards.
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It seems like every time someone high up at the club has spoken publicly this season, they've scaled down the ambitions and goals for the club. We've now gone from bouncing back decisively, to playoffs as a minimum, to challenging for the playoffs, to now, finally, being happy that we're not battling for relegation.
That for me is the big issue. It's starting to feel like genuine dishonesty coming from parts of the club. And I hope that's what is being questioned when SM, the shadow board etc get their chance to ask questions. I don't demand bigger budgets, spending transfer fees etc. The board have every right to spend at a level they believe is sensible. But we deserve honesty. And it increasingly feels like we haven't had that as this season has progressed.
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As SO'D used to say... if you stand still in football, you go backwards.
We’re not just standing still, though, we’ve fallen off the precipice!
Copps alluded to it himself when he referred to ‘stem the flow’. He’s obviously not enjoying his job right now and we can probably all sympathise with that, but our much needed improvement is not going to happen, based on sympathies.
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Do other clubs not have to pay the lecky bill?
Yes they do of course but we don’t have any idea whether or not their ground brings them income in the way that clubDoncaster does for us.
The tenants at the stadium plus the income from the other things, football pitches and food suppliers etc should give us an advantage over some other clubs so it could be argued that our situation isn’t as bad as at other places.
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As SO'D used to say... if you stand still in football, you go backwards.
We’re not just standing still, though, we’ve fallen off the precipice!
Copps alluded to it himself when he referred to ‘stem the flow’. He’s obviously not enjoying his job right now and we can probably all sympathise with that, but our much needed improvement is not going to happen, based on sympathies.
Absolutely Alan. I was referring to the comment that our budget was top 6 before January, but then because our rivals recruited more and increased their budgets, ours dropped to top 10. Stand still, go backwards.
I agree though that the overall trend is definitely downwards in that regard.
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I agree, ‘hound, but SM has already explained how the budget is the budget and if something else needs paying, then that reduces the playing resource. This is an area where we need to look at correcting in some way, that is, the playing budget simply has to be the absolute priority over everything else - especially now in the mess we’re in!
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I agree, ‘hound, but SM has already explained how the budget is the budget and if something else needs paying, then that reduces the playing resource. This is an area where we need to look at correcting in some way, that is, the playing budget simply has to be the absolute priority over everything else - especially now in the mess we’re in!
Alan, I absolutely agree with that last part of your post.
My point is that the large fuel bill should be partially funded by the additional funds that we generate.
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I agree, ‘hound, but SM has already explained how the budget is the budget and if something else needs paying, then that reduces the playing resource. This is an area where we need to look at correcting in some way, that is, the playing budget simply has to be the absolute priority over everything else - especially now in the mess we’re in!
No I didn't, I used the utilities demand for context. I didn't say that the playing budget was being reduced to accommodate that, in fact I did say that TB was covering that.
What I did say (its getting like groundhog day on here!!) was that we started the season with a budget that put us around 6th, but due to other clubs expenditure during the January window that's been enough to reduce us to somewhere in the top 10.
And I've also said, for the umpteenth time on here, that its easier to balance the books in LG1 than it is in LG2.
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Do other clubs not have to pay the lecky bill?
Yes they do of course but we don’t have any idea whether or not their ground brings them income in the way that clubDoncaster does for us.
The tenants at the stadium plus the income from the other things, football pitches and food suppliers etc should give us an advantage over some other clubs so it could be argued that our situation isn’t as bad as at other places.
I'm sure that's what all the crowing by the club about now being sustainable was about, Hound.
I also seem to remember the recent lengthy discussion on here on that very topic where SM explained that changes to the governance of the game arising out of the Fan Led Review would require that all clubs become more sustainable and which would place the Rovers at an advantage over other clubs because we're ahead of the game.
That advantage feels rather feeble at the minute.
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Just for clarity Martin, I wasn’t referring to that particular point you were making. You have explained what I was saying - I think it was in reference to costs on improvements to the stadium (whatever thread that was in).
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I agree, ‘hound, but SM has already explained how the budget is the budget and if something else needs paying, then that reduces the playing resource. This is an area where we need to look at correcting in some way, that is, the playing budget simply has to be the absolute priority over everything else - especially now in the mess we’re in!
No I didn't, I used the utilities demand for context. I didn't say that the playing budget was being reduced to accommodate that, in fact I did say that TB was covering that.
What I did say (its getting like groundhog day on here!!) was that we started the season with a budget that put us around 6th, but due to other clubs expenditure during the January window that's been enough to reduce us to somewhere in the top 10.
And I've also said, for the umpteenth time on here, that its easier to balance the books in LG1 than it is in LG2.
So when the initial budget was set at the start of the season it included projected expenditure in the January window and it seems we have stuck to that budget.
So we have gone from the 6th highest budget to the 10th highest.
Therefore other clubs haven't been so rigid with their budget and have exceeded it while we have stagnated.
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To confirm what Martin ( SM) is saying.
At the start of the season we had a playing budget that would easily ensure we were in the top 6.
As the season has progressed & other teams “ throw money” at trying to get into the play offs or staving off relegation, then that standing has slipped. There is VERY little budget wise between the teams in those placed 5/10.
Again to allay any worries the utility bills & staff wage increases ( set by the law) all have to met & WILL do so. TB is picking up the shortfall, which will no doubt be significant.
There’s nothing whatsoever to suggest the playing budget will be touched.
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I would suggest to VSC members to visit the VSC section of this forum if they haven't already done so
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If its easier to balance the books in League One, then why aren't we busting a gut to get back there?
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Just for clarity Martin, I wasn’t referring to that particular point you were making. You have explained what I was saying - I think it was in reference to costs on improvements to the stadium (whatever thread that was in).
OK, fair enough, although I will admit to being a bit confused. Not your fault, just confused by everybody picking apart every post I write as though I'm somehow responsible.
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Couple of questions from me:
- Copps says his job is to communicate between Schofield and Baldwin. I thought Baldwin didn’t have anything to do with the football side of the club and that was all down to Blunt? Has this changed?
- Copps says we’re a “League Two club with an average League Two budget.” That to me is at odds with claims from SM & LR that we have a top 10 budget, with very little between that and a top 5 budget. What’s the truth here? Was it just a throwaway line with little thought given to it? Is Copps trying to apply pressure for more to spend next year (if so, I’m not sure this is the best way to do it). Does Copps not really know where we stand against the rest of the league? Is what SM/LR have been told inaccurate?
It does feel like expectations are trying to be reset here. To go from “bouncing back decisively” in August to getting to the playoffs being an “unbelievable achievement” (I had to read that bit twice) feels like a slap in the face. It would be nice to have some clarity rather than continually mixed messages - makes it harder and harder to ignore the conjecture about the state of the club.
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I'd like to know how and why we've gone from budget to compete in league 1 for the play offs to mid table league 2 budget.
It's of course the board's perogative to do so but why and also if that's what they want why are they not actively looking to move on as it is not what us fans want.
We should not accept mediocrity.
have we had a top 6 budget thou, look at the downgrade in not just permanent players but loan players, I think the board have said what they want supporters to hear not what the truth is
I’ve already talked about the January window and how it affected the budgets of those clubs around us in terms of budgets.
We started the season with a budget that would put us in about 6th place, but, as I said earlier this week, there are a bunch of clubs that are close to us in terms of playing budget, and we have calculated that the window saw us drop a few places. The club are still of the opinion that we are in the top 10.
There are other pressures, not least of which is the massive increase in the utility costs which wasn’t planned for, but my understanding is that TB is handling that.
is that what a club looking to “bounce back decisively” would do? We still had a chance of playoffs in January and decided to reduce our budget
As SO'D used to say... if you stand still in football, you go backwards.
Trouble is we are not standing still. We are cutting back. Which is even more disastrous. We were told we would be a major player in league 2 yet we have an average budget. Those 2 don’t go hand in hand. The slide continues.
I dread to think the budget will be next season.
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SM:
OK, fair enough, although I will admit to being a bit confused. Not your fault, just confused by everybody picking apart every post I write as though I'm somehow responsible.
Found the bit I was looking for, it was in a post in the ‘Bums on Seats’ thread, back in February:
“ Of course the stadium costs are dealt with in the CD accounts. The point being made is that the more you spend in one area the less there is in others, which of course includes the playing budget.”
That was what was stuck in my head!
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What I don't get is we clearly lost 3 of our biggest earners before amd in the transfer window,yet we really struggled to bring anyone decent in
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I'd like to know how and why we've gone from budget to compete in league 1 for the play offs to mid table league 2 budget.
It's of course the board's perogative to do so but why and also if that's what they want why are they not actively looking to move on as it is not what us fans want.
We should not accept mediocrity.
have we had a top 6 budget thou, look at the downgrade in not just permanent players but loan players, I think the board have said what they want supporters to hear not what the truth is
I’ve already talked about the January window and how it affected the budgets of those clubs around us in terms of budgets.
We started the season with a budget that would put us in about 6th place, but, as I said earlier this week, there are a bunch of clubs that are close to us in terms of playing budget, and we have calculated that the window saw us drop a few places. The club are still of the opinion that we are in the top 10.
There are other pressures, not least of which is the massive increase in the utility costs which wasn’t planned for, but my understanding is that TB is handling that.
is that what a club looking to “bounce back decisively” would do? We still had a chance of playoffs in January and decided to reduce our budget
As SO'D used to say... if you stand still in football, you go backwards.
Trouble is we are not standing still. We are cutting back. Which is even more disastrous. We were told we would be a major player in league 2 yet we have an average budget. Those 2 don’t go hand in hand. The slide continues.
I dread to think the budget will be next season.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=287516.msg1226007#msg1226007
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I’m not sure James’ YP interview has helped much. To me he said unless you spend money this is what you end up with. In-fact the reason we are where we are is because, as a football department, is probably because we think like that. James sounds like a disgruntled manager in that interview which isn’t good.
I think James and Danny have got some sort of utopian one size fits all “process” in mind. It’s likely to ruin them both. I think they needed to look at things in a more granular way when formulating the strategy. They went with “what they want” as opposed to “what we need”. Look at “what we need” and “what we have” then join the dots in between. That’s the start of a process in a short term environment.
Possibly feels like Danny has implemented what he’s good at, a decent shape out of possession, ok structure when defending but that may be his limit. We’ve ended up one dimensional attacking wise and then you get found out. It puts pressure on the defensive players, they make mistakes, and it spirals.
We don’t want to hear excuses, his job is to build a vision for the future, whatever the budget.
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It seems to me that the ‘budget’ is adjusted to reflect where we sit in the league. That way, we’ll never be failing.
How long before the ‘budget’ is that of a lowly division 4 club?
This is all very worrying.
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I’ve never really looked at this in such a way, but both our DoF and manager are both very inexperienced in their respective roles. I now seriously wonder if that was a very deliberate ploy by the board.
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Trouble is, Belton, we made the same error way back, with AB. Then, we repeated that error with GM and then if it wasn’t obvious enough, we get the hat-trick by appointing DS (and Copps, to a degree).
It’s amateurish at best, dangerously inept at worst.
Someone needs to inject some confidence back into the support base before it totally evaporates.
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Can anyone else see what’s going on here? Distraction techniques to the full. He’s got everyone losing their minds over the budget so we forget about the totally inexcusable and unacceptable shite being served up week in week out.
If it’s all about budget then we may as well not turn up on a weekend and just settle on the league table based on that. It’s utter b*llocks.
If he can’t work on said budget then surely he’s talked himself out of a job. Fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!
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This what DS said to DFP about the budget and promotion.
Quote
Schofield was asked how hard building a side capable of challenging for promotion would be with a mid-table budget, to which he responded: “If you look throughout the leagues and at all the clubs it reflects your budget.
"We are 12th at the minute for a reason. Whatever the budget is we will give everything, every single day, to try and be the best we can be and try and win as many games as we can.”
I believe he should be able to produce more entertaining football with players we had whether the results would have been better I don’t know.
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/what-danny-schofield-had-to-say-about-doncaster-rovers-mid-table-playing-budget-4084720
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What budget do Sutton United, Barrow & Stevenage have.
Look where the all are in the table.
They should all be in the bottom 5 of this league based on budgets i would expect.
We need a bl..dy manager who can manage. :that:
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Can anyone else see what’s going on here? Distraction techniques to the full. He’s got everyone losing their minds over the budget so we forget about the totally inexcusable and unacceptable shite being served up week in week out.
If it’s all about budget then we may as well not turn up on a weekend and just settle on the league table based on that. It’s utter b*llocks.
If he can’t work on said budget then surely he’s talked himself out of a job. Fingers crossed!!!!!!!!!
If they sack him that’s 12 months wages they have to pay. Is Copps on a 12 month rolling contract aswell?? So difficult decisions to be made.
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What budget do Sutton United, Barrow & Stevenage have.
Look where the all are in the table.
The should all be in the bottom 5 of this league based on budgets i would expect.
We need a bloody manager who can manage. :that:
I believe all three will have equivalent if not better than us at this time.
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Interesting interview. For me it just underlines what I believe already- that sustainable or not, the sporting element of the club (and the reason we turn up on a cold Tuesday night) is poorly run.
From the scoreboard being broken for months, to the PA system you can’t hear, to the catering obviously awarded to the lowest bidder without any concern for quality and value, to quite senior people now admitting that the budget isn’t enough, and most importantly to the dire football on display every week with abysmal results.
If not netto it’s Asda Smart Price!
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I’m sure it was stated by this board at the start of the season we had one of the best budgets in this league, now Copps says we are 12th and that’s right for our budget, something not right there, someone as a big nose, what if we drop another 4 places is 16th about right. I think Copps is trying to say he’s pissed off like most of us are.
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How on earth have we ended up with a mid-table League Two budget?
Absolutely shocking that they've just dropped this into the public domain with no substantial explanation as to what's gone wrong and how they plan to fix it.
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The 7th largest home attendances in L2
Plus
The extra money generated from the Club Doncaster model (we'd be much worse off without it, we're told)
Plus
The extra money put in by the board (we'd be much worse off without them, we're told)
Plus
Taking a budget hit last season to pay off Covid debts (unlike all those silly other clubs)
Equals
The average League 2 budget
Must be missing something.
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The 7th largest home attendances in L2
Plus
The extra money generated by from Club Doncaster model (we'd be much worse off without it, we're told)
Plus
The extra money put in by the board (we'd be much worse off without them, we're told)
Plus
Taking a budget hit last season to pay off Covid debts (unlike all those silly other clubs)
Equals
The average League 2 budget
Must be missing something.
Don’t forget the funds put aside for January + Tomlins wages saved + knoyle wages saved + knoyle fee + Andrews going back + Clayton wages saved all pointing towards a cracking January budget….only to clearly cut costs not really strengthen.
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Okay...
So the budget due to others outspending us is now mid table. Okay, well I figured that was the case with the exits and the quality of player incoming. Frankly the boards attitude to the playing budget seems to be cutting it quite close to austerity.
I wouldn't be as upset if the team we'd amassed were entertaining and by that I don't mean 50 pass moves... I mean putting in a shift, taking shots on goals, putting in tackles , playing with some sort of purpose.
But they aren't. If we were winning more games, putting more shots on goal, putting in a shift and not endlessly hearing about the 'fundamentals' we wouldn't be so focused on this issue.
The reality is the budget is the issue we are focusing on because the squad and management have been so shocking for 2 solid years now.
For me more broadly though, the club needs to recognise it's decision making has for some time been woeful; its attitude to budgets has consumed all other matters to a detrimental effect; and that it's treatment of fans needs to improve drastically.
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This talk about league position broadly reflecting the budget can only be true if the capability of each club's scouting and recruitment personnel is comparable. Us assuming that because we are twelfth that means we have a mid table budget could be way off the mark in either direction, although our recruitment has been rank bad for the last two or three years.
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Interesting interview. For me it just underlines what I believe already- that sustainable or not, the sporting element of the club (and the reason we turn up on a cold Tuesday night) is poorly run.
From the scoreboard being broken for months, to the PA system you can’t hear, to the catering obviously awarded to the lowest bidder without any concern for quality and value, to quite senior people now admitting that the budget isn’t enough, and most importantly to the dire football on display every week with abysmal results.
If not netto it’s Asda Smart Price!
Surely the catering would have gone to the highest bidder
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Gavin Baldwin himself said that budget equates to league position.
His words, not mine.
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Personally don’t buy it that our budget is that low unless there’s some short term issues. As Philskin and Mush point out just on a simple comparison we should be bringing in the revenue to be higher.
All the talk of our none football income is a joke if with the 7th highest attendance we are lower than 7th in the squad spend.
Only way I can square it in my head is that we aren’t spending all our budget because of Tomlin, Knoyle, Clayton and more loans leaving than coming in. So maybe on actual expenses we are 12th but if we spent it all we’d be higher than 7th.
If this isn’t the case I’m tempted to say Copps is chatting nonsense to cover for the terrible recruitment. Like Gaz says he sounds like a typical manager in the summer moaning about the signings he can make. It’s a deflection because he’s feeling a bit of pressure.
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Like I’ve said all along the board have been gaslighting the supporters; how do VCS members who sit on the board or shadow board not know this; what’s the point in them. It’s either the case that they themselves have been lied to or they are complicit.
I made a statement the other day saying that the board are at loggerheads each month about the shortfall and how to make payment for players wages; I put this directly to SM and never got a response. Again SM are you going to confirm this is the case?
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Regarding budget - it has been stated before obviously - but one large salary could be saved if we got rid of both Coppinger & Schofield - and replace them by one competent, experienced person!
And then hopefully we would know who was making signings, who was responsible for strategy & tactics - just ONE person - who is responsible to the board - measured on performance & thus hired & fired by the board
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Regarding budget - it has been stated before obviously - but one large salary could be saved if we got rid of both Coppinger & Schofield - and replace them by one competent, experienced person!
And then hopefully we would know who was making signings, who was responsible for strategy & tactics - just ONE person - who is responsible to the board - measured on performance & thus hired & fired by the board
If our Chairman could be trusted to not let managers completely dismantle the squad and proactively appoint managers then Copps role wouldn’t be needed.
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Reads like an attempt to avoid responsibility to me and deflect blame.
If he was my employee I’d be having serious words about airing dirty linen in public as well.
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Has anyone got an actual quote of Baldwin/board saying we have a top six budget this year?
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Regarding budget - it has been stated before obviously - but one large salary could be saved if we got rid of both Coppinger & Schofield - and replace them by one competent, experienced person!
Only one problem with that scenario - who picks the new manager? Because our record over the last 3 seasons has been questionable. And, once you think you’ve got the right guy, you need to back him with a budget that reflects where you want him to take the Club.
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Regarding budget - it has been stated before obviously - but one large salary could be saved if we got rid of both Coppinger & Schofield - and replace them by one competent, experienced person!
And then hopefully we would know who was making signings, who was responsible for strategy & tactics - just ONE person - who is responsible to the board - measured on performance & thus hired & fired by the board
We'd be back where we were 12-36 months ago which wasn't much better.
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Like I’ve said all along the board have been gaslighting the supporters; how do VCS members who sit on the board or shadow board not know this; what’s the point in them. It’s either the case that they themselves have been lied to or they are complicit.
I made a statement the other day saying that the board are at loggerheads each month about the shortfall and how to make payment for players wages; I put this directly to SM and never got a response. Again SM are you going to confirm this is the case?
You did get a response, he asked you who your so called reliable source was!
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How is that a response to a yes or no question ? I’m not revealing my source; I want to
Know whether he or anybody else is n a position to confirm, or deny it.
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Just a thought.
SM tells us (and there's no reason to doubt it) that last season's budget should not have seen us relegated.
If this season's budget is only midtable L2, that implies a large cut in the wage bill from.ladt season to this.
But now look at the players we lost from last season
Bogle
Dodoo
Hiwula
Cukur
Dahlberg
Ed Williams
Bostock
Smith
Galbraith
John
Vilca
Odubeko
Martin
Gardner
Think how few of those would improve the current squad.
Smith
Galbraith
Martin
Maybe 3 out of 14.
And in the summer we signed
Miller
Hurst
Molyneux
Long
Maxwell
Not all successes, but most at least on a par with the ones we lost.
We have a better or at least, not worse squad now, on, apparently lower wages.
What in God's name were we paying those deadwood players last year?
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Just a thought.
SM tells us (and there's no reason to doubt it) that last season's budget should not have seen us relegated.
If this season's budget is only midtable L2, that implies a large cut in the wage bill from.ladt season to this.
But now look at the players we lost from last season
Bogle
Dodoo
Hiwula
Cukur
Dahlberg
Ed Williams
Bostock
Smith
Galbraith
John
Vilca
Odubeko
Martin
Gardner
Think how few of those would improve the current squad.
Smith
Galbraith
Martin
Maybe 3 out of 14.
And in the summer we signed
Miller
Hurst
Molyneux
Long
Maxwell
Not all successes, but most at least on a par with the ones we lost.
We have a better or at least, not worse squad now, on, apparently lower wages.
What in God's name were we paying those deadwood players last year?
Too much.
We do have a better squad this season BST imo.
As you say only those 3 players above would get into this team we have this season.
We have showed in 4/5 games we could be a very good team in League 2 this season but only in those few games.
This coach is destroying what flair and attacking ability we have. He is eroding the confidence of Mitchell, Brown, Close, Hurst, Molyneux & Miller in particular.
Not only is that happening but the whole team is deteriorating as an entity and DS is not only not improving them but actually making them look really poor as individuals. More and more mistakes are occurring as DS as a coach is asking them to play to such a rigid inflexible system.
The opposition know how we will play and it’s so easy for them to nullify us. We are so easy to play against.
If he is determined to stick with this “process” as he calls it then I believe we are in big trouble.
I know this season is now dead but we need to build some positive momentum going into next season.
I honestly now don’t see where the next win is coming from, especially as so many players are going down with long term injuries.
Strange when confidence is eroded more and more injuries are occurring. Coincidence or not?
Very worrying times indeed.
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Like I’ve said all along the board have been gaslighting the supporters; how do VCS members who sit on the board or shadow board not know this; what’s the point in them. It’s either the case that they themselves have been lied to or they are complicit.
I made a statement the other day saying that the board are at loggerheads each month about the shortfall and how to make payment for players wages; I put this directly to SM and never got a response. Again SM are you going to confirm this is the case?
You did get a response, he asked you who your so called reliable source was!
Didn't SM also say it was nonsense?
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Will Copps be whinging about the budget when Accrington and Sutton finish above us next year?
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Will Copps be whinging about the budget when Accrington and Sutton finish above us next year?
Why do you believe our budget is better than theirs now I’m not sure it not all about the budget. But it is when the Chairman believed we could get straight back in to league 1
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Will Copps be whinging about the budget when Accrington and Sutton finish above us next year?
Why do you believe our budget is better than theirs now I’m not sure it not all about the budget. But it is when the Chairman believed we could get straight back in to league 1
Of course. I’m glad he has exposed the lies of the owners. I just don’t think it’s helpful for him to use it as an excuse going forwards when we need people to step up, be strong and take responsibility right now. We won’t have saleable assets if DS keeps worsening the football team and the right recruitment* isn’t made.
*playing and coaching staff
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Wasn't the comment about a top 6 budget made at the start of the season?
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All this talk about budgets, is it really the issue?
Imo the squad isn't that bad, they are under performing of that there is no doubt, but why?
For me it's back to the manager and his stubborn, unworkable tactics. Many things which have been discussed on here - playing Rowe in defence when it's clear he is more effective in midfield, playing a lone striker, arguably our most attacking threat (Knoyle) moved to Central defence, moving out a promising youngster (Faulkner).
None of it makes any sense and is suppressing any confidence the team had.
I just hope there are questions being asked of the manager because bringing in someone new and more experienced playing the basics would have us performing better.
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Like I’ve said all along the board have been gaslighting the supporters; how do VCS members who sit on the board or shadow board not know this; what’s the point in them. It’s either the case that they themselves have been lied to or they are complicit.
I made a statement the other day saying that the board are at loggerheads each month about the shortfall and how to make payment for players wages; I put this directly to SM and never got a response. Again SM are you going to confirm this is the case?
You did get a response, he asked you who your so called reliable source was!
Didn't SM also say it was nonsense?
No he didn’t; he avoided the question, boated of his own accolades and asked for my source.
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Wasn't the comment about a top 6 budget made at the start of the season?
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-chief-executive-gavin-baldwin-addresses-season-expectations-and-pressure-on-gary-mcsheffrey-3855367
An interesting read…
Why is Schofield being held to different standards to McSheffrey?
“It is understood Doncaster have one of the highest budgets in the division”
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I’m not sure why posters are taking a budget v mismanagement stance
The budget has been massively slashed over the last 5 to 6 seasons and we also have a crap manager, resulting in the perfect storm of shiteness that we now see on the field
The two are not mutually exclusively
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Has anyone got an actual quote of Baldwin/board saying we have a top six budget this year?
SM did say on a thread last year that we would be a major player in league 2 with a budget that would make us a standout contender.
Now that has to be better than an average budget what we have now don’t you think? And in Martins defence that’s what he was told I’m sure.
Somethings changed somewhere.
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We all remember the bounce back decisively quote by the guy who should know. Safe to assume it should have been a top 6 figure after hearing that.
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What is said between Aug and Dec is different to the situation come Jan. Funds are added to budgets, as someone has already said, to push for promotion or to try and avoid relegation.What is a competitive top 6 budget can become a mid table budget in the space of 4 weeks very easily if original budgetary constraints are kept in place
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We all remember the bounce back decisively quote by the guy who should know. Safe to assume it should have been a top 6 figure after hearing that.
Perhaps the guy who made that statement believes to finish lower-mid-table in the division below equals 'bouncing back decisively' when compared to the previous season's relegation?
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Comments below from Gavin Baldwin's 2023 New Year message specific to the budget. Make of it what you will. But something doesn't stack up. You can interpret 'competitive' in different ways. You can compete with any budget maybe not very well.
...become that self-sustainable business with a playing budget that enables us to compete at both League Two and League One level.
These reductions in costs, coupled with the revenue we are now generating away from football, mean that we can keep prices as low as possible without taking money away from the playing budget.
...Club Doncaster continues to provide competitive playing budgets it is one we should all be proud of.
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I suppose we're all prone to doing it, Bill. Trusting on first hearing that the words used actually have the most straightforward meaning only to find later that if you had been sceptical you might have seen the real meaning.
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Like I’ve said all along the board have been gaslighting the supporters; how do VCS members who sit on the board or shadow board not know this; what’s the point in them. It’s either the case that they themselves have been lied to or they are complicit.
I made a statement the other day saying that the board are at loggerheads each month about the shortfall and how to make payment for players wages; I put this directly to SM and never got a response. Again SM are you going to confirm this is the case?
You did get a response, he asked you who your so called reliable source was!
Didn't SM also say it was nonsense?
No he didn’t; he avoided the question, boated of his own accolades and asked for my source.
Are you ignoring the thread you put your original comment on?
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I think he explained that pretty clearly the other day. We started off with a budget at that level, but a small number of other clubs then expanded their budgets for the January window, so we slipped down relatively. Even so, there was little difference in budget between where we are currently (circa 10th) and the couple of clubs above us.
All of this ignores the fact that we haven't spent it particularly well, yet again.
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When you look at what we brought in, in the January window, we can’t have had much of a budget left! We should have been strengthening ready for a push, but the players in no way reflected that strategy. We’re 23rd in the recent form table for a reason!
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I like how at the point after the Carlisle game on Jan 1st we were 1 point off the play offs in 8th position and the board decided a good idea wasn't to try and push for those positions but to carry on cutting the budget, because who needs promotion, eh?
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The players took a fairly sizeable pay cut after relegation last season. The actual figure this season is slightly distorted in terms of original contracts offered to the players (hence the value we originally put on them) vs what we are actually paying them this season. If we came down with a £2m wage bill, this season we would have to actually only pay ~£1.6m. Should we class our wage bill as the higher figure or the lower one? Depends what narrative you want to spin I suppose.
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Unless you are Darren Moore and all you sign are loan players, at this level you do need 2-3 loan players to make a big impact. We’ve tended towards the bit part or shirt filler category, which has been an issue for our overall squad quality.
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Has anyone got an actual quote of Baldwin/board saying we have a top six budget this year?
SM did say on a thread last year that we would be a major player in league 2 with a budget that would make us a standout contender.
Now that has to be better than an average budget what we have now don’t you think? And in Martins defence that’s what he was told I’m sure.
Somethings changed somewhere.
Yes I did say that, it was what I discussed at the time with the club, and it was also part of the discussions we had in the Supporters Board meetings when the fear of relegation was looming very large.
What's changed? In another post somewhere on the forum I explained that we started the season with a budget that would have seen us occupying about 6th spot. But I also said there were a lot of clubs around us in terms of budget size, as many as 8-10 clubs, and that it would appear that expenditure in the January window has seen us slip down from there. In a discussion with the club last week I was told that we were probably about 10th now and that couldn't be ratified until the EFL had updated their communique to the clubs.
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Has anyone got an actual quote of Baldwin/board saying we have a top six budget this year?
SM did say on a thread last year that we would be a major player in league 2 with a budget that would make us a standout contender.
Now that has to be better than an average budget what we have now don’t you think? And in Martins defence that’s what he was told I’m sure.
Somethings changed somewhere.
Yes I did say that, it was what I discussed at the time with the club, and it was also part of the discussions we had in the Supporters Board meetings when the fear of relegation was looming very large.
What's changed? In another post somewhere on the forum I explained that we started the season with a budget that would have seen us occupying about 6th spot. But I also said there were a lot of clubs around us in terms of budget size, as many as 8-10 clubs, and that it would appear that expenditure in the January window has seen us slip down from there. In a discussion with the club last week I was told that we were probably about 10th now and that couldn't be ratified until the EFL had updated their communique to the clubs.
so in reality, never a “major player” then
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Yes I did say that, it was what I discussed at the time with the club, and it was also part of the discussions we had in the Supporters Board meetings when the fear of relegation was looming very large.
What's changed? In another post somewhere on the forum I explained that we started the season with a budget that would have seen us occupying about 6th spot. But I also said there were a lot of clubs around us in terms of budget size, as many as 8-10 clubs, and that it would appear that expenditure in the January window has seen us slip down from there. In a discussion with the club last week I was told that we were probably about 10th now and that couldn't be ratified until the EFL had updated their communique to the clubs.
Surely the budget reduced in October initially when the club stopped paying Lee Tomlin?
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I’ve just been re-reading that Copps piece again and I’m struggling with this:
“We've got 18 players signed up for next season with three signing new contracts recently based on the environment the coach has created.
I reckon we’ve got 15 signed, but I can’t get to 18! Anyone care to have a stab at it?
I’m also wondering how many of those 15/18 players are truly good enough to allow us to vastly improve our position next season?
(Ignore the question whether DS is still in his job).
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I’ve just been re-reading that Copps piece again and I’m struggling with this:
“We've got 18 players signed up for next season with three signing new contracts recently based on the environment the coach has created.
I reckon we’ve got 15 signed, but I can’t get to 18! Anyone care to have a stab at it?
I’m also wondering how many of those 15/18 players are truly good enough to allow us to vastly improve our position next season?
(Ignore the question whether DS is still in his job).
Maybe youth teamers have signed but haven't been announced yet?
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Has anyone got an actual quote of Baldwin/board saying we have a top six budget this year?
SM did say on a thread last year that we would be a major player in league 2 with a budget that would make us a standout contender.
Now that has to be better than an average budget what we have now don’t you think? And in Martins defence that’s what he was told I’m sure.
Somethings changed somewhere.
Yes I did say that, it was what I discussed at the time with the club, and it was also part of the discussions we had in the Supporters Board meetings when the fear of relegation was looming very large.
What's changed? In another post somewhere on the forum I explained that we started the season with a budget that would have seen us occupying about 6th spot. But I also said there were a lot of clubs around us in terms of budget size, as many as 8-10 clubs, and that it would appear that expenditure in the January window has seen us slip down from there. In a discussion with the club last week I was told that we were probably about 10th now and that couldn't be ratified until the EFL had updated their communique to the clubs.
So at the start of January we were just outside the playoffs, with a new manager and style of football which the owners must believe in, and the first opportunity to recruit players for that new manager and system, and instead of pushing on and backing him we showed absolutely zero ambition compared the clubs around us? Resulting in us now experiencing exactly the drop off you'd expect based on that lack of ambition? Again, it just seems like a really strange decision. We chose to tread water at exactly the point we needed to kick on.
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I can only get to our budget going back if it’s on money spent rather than money available. Start if season we were around top 6 then we lose Tomlin, Woltman, Andrews, Knoyle and Clayton. Replace those with Brown, Nelson, Lavery and Lakin.
We must be spending less than at the start of the season after all that. Therefore on money spent we will have dropped. So the question is was Copps not allowed to spend the saved funds or did we limit Jan spending due to quality available.
Personally think the budget won’t have moved and we just couldn’t find decent players for the same money in Jan so downgraded with what was available. That Copps is using it as an excuse is just the pressure on DS and him defending his decision.
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I can only get to our budget going back if it’s on money spent rather than money available. Start if season we were around top 6 then we lose Tomlin, Woltman, Andrews, Knoyle and Clayton. Replace those with Brown, Nelson, Lavery and Lakin.
We must be spending less than at the start of the season after all that. Therefore on money spent we will have dropped. So the question is was Copps not allowed to spend the saved funds or did we limit Jan spending due to quality available.
Personally think the budget won’t have moved and we just couldn’t find decent players for the same money in Jan so downgraded with what was available. That Copps is using it as an excuse is just the pressure on DS and him defending his decision.
if it was my money, based on the garbage being served up by dull Danny, I sure as hell wouldn’t let him go to town with the chequebook either.
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Has anyone got an actual quote of Baldwin/board saying we have a top six budget this year?
SM did say on a thread last year that we would be a major player in league 2 with a budget that would make us a standout contender.
Now that has to be better than an average budget what we have now don’t you think? And in Martins defence that’s what he was told I’m sure.
Somethings changed somewhere.
Yes I did say that, it was what I discussed at the time with the club, and it was also part of the discussions we had in the Supporters Board meetings when the fear of relegation was looming very large.
What's changed? In another post somewhere on the forum I explained that we started the season with a budget that would have seen us occupying about 6th spot. But I also said there were a lot of clubs around us in terms of budget size, as many as 8-10 clubs, and that it would appear that expenditure in the January window has seen us slip down from there. In a discussion with the club last week I was told that we were probably about 10th now and that couldn't be ratified until the EFL had updated their communique to the clubs.
So at the start of January we were just outside the playoffs, with a new manager and style of football which the owners must believe in, and the first opportunity to recruit players for that new manager and system, and instead of pushing on and backing him we showed absolutely zero ambition compared the clubs around us? Resulting in us now experiencing exactly the drop off you'd expect based on that lack of ambition? Again, it just seems like a really strange decision. We chose to tread water at exactly the point we needed to kick on.
Yes, but if you read what I've written there's a number of clubs with similar budgets, and I mean very similar. So its not the dramatic fall that would explain the drop off in form that we've had.