FA stands for .........

[IDM]

We have a great structure in our league pyramid - look at our own ups and downs in the last 20 years for example?

What is the obsession with describing the English league structure as a pyramid.. it's a straight line down to the conference.. anything below thwei resembling a pyramid is irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.. no one is envious if the way the northern counties 3rd division has a regional split!..

It isn't an obsession, just the most used word to describe the football structure.  I get what you mean, but it would be a bit clumsy to call the structure Eiffel Tower shape?  We use "ladder" sometimes too.

I find it incredible how scared of change people get. They're not even prepared to hear the idea, the headline is enough for them to start lobbying for opposition.

If it aint broke, don't fix it!

What is wrong with the system now?  Apart from the financial gulf between the premier league and everyone else - but how would these proposals change that? 

So imagine a B league division was inserted between league 2 and the conference?  Despite not being relegated, conference clubs would have to climb one additional rung on the ladder to progress.

One of the great attractions of our system is that clubs can start small and rise - look at Rushden & Diamonds, remember Colne Dynamos?  Equally they can fall - where are Stockport now for example?  But they can climb back.  Just look at our recent history too...

I am all for improving the international scene, but can't see how this proposal would do that.  Young english players can get competitive football and develop by going on loan.

[aidanstu]

Just as a side issue how would all this fit in with the financial fair play rules? A premier club would still want a sizable squad but are then directed by the FA to create what is in effect another club? Can b teams be promoted to the prem? Could you have Chelsea v Chelsea b as a title decider?

In my view We are heading for a premier league franchise anyway so a lot of the talk of how this May or may not effect the pyramid is redundant. If that happens I have already made my mind up I'm done with football.

You can see problems already.

[Capmeister]

Strange how Brentford got promoted when Greg Dyke left ;o)

[DonnyBazR0ver]

It's sad that this idea gets as far as being publshed. Are they looking to gauge reaction? That in itself shows they don't understand what unerpins the foundations of fan's support. Interfere with the free passage from bottom to top, top to bottom and they kill the game.

[silent majority]

I would be prepared for this afternoon to be honest. Well get to see exactly what he's proposing.

We've submitted our proposals, I do wonder if he's paid attention.

[BigColSutherland]

It's sad that this idea gets as far as being publshed. Are they looking to gauge reaction? That in itself shows they don't understand what unerpins the foundations of fan's support. Interfere with the free passage from bottom to top, top to bottom and they kill the game.

What a load of nonsense. You haven't even seen the idea - as it's yet to be published - yet you have already written it off.
How about you let them publish it, then you read it, then you decide if you don't like it.

[silent majority]

It's sad that this idea gets as far as being publshed. Are they looking to gauge reaction? That in itself shows they don't understand what unerpins the foundations of fan's support. Interfere with the free passage from bottom to top, top to bottom and they kill the game.

What a load of nonsense. You haven't even seen the idea - as it's yet to be published - yet you have already written it off.
How about you let them publish it, then you read it, then you decide if you don't like it.

The fans organisations have rubbished it, several club chairmen have done the same, but more importantly the top man at the Football League, Andy Williamson said ' the suggestion is frankly offensive'.

It's a mad cap idea in our league system. The other leagues throughout Europe who employ something similar don't have the depth of professional football that we have.

[BigColSutherland]

That's all very nice Martin - but how are posters on here able to rubbish an idea that is yet to be published?

Will they be reviewing the third Hobbit film later this week?

[silent majority]

It doesn't need a great stretch of the imagination to work out the beneficiary's and losers in a system where the PL can introduce B teams into the football pyramid. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of Spanish football will tell you that below the top teams there is no enthusiasm for football. The crowds they attract are laughable. That's the example we should look at??

Under Greg Dukes proposals they are suggesting that B teams can be promoted throughout the FL structure but not into the PL. That means we, and many other clubs, could be prevented from competing at Championship level ever again. The more clubs that infiltrate the FL then the more will be displaced.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Why can't you see the obvious without having it all spelt out? Something's are just plainly wrong, this is one of them.

[The Red Baron]

That's all very nice Martin - but how are posters on here able to rubbish an idea that is yet to be published?

Will they be reviewing the third Hobbit film later this week?

The proposal is in the public domain. I fail to see why it can't be discussed.

Anyway, I'm sure you'll look forward to us playing Chelsea B in a few year's time.

[BigColSutherland]

TRB - I have neither supported nor objected to the idea.

What I object to is small minded individuals writing off a proposal before it has even been published.

[Filo]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/27327502

[BigColSutherland]

Well, it's a terrible idea...

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It is, but I don't quite get it.  It states about the start of it, but say West Brom had a B team, what happens to it upon their relegation, does it disappear?  I don't quite understand that.  Do newly promoted teams have the right to one - eg could Leicester have had one upon promotion.  Where do they enter?

I'm not sure it would be great for fans of say Leeds to have to visit Man Utd B - it's just silly.

Imagine the league 1 play offs having Arsenal, Man C, Man U and Liverpool B in them - that would be bizarre if it happened, would it then end up with 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th in them?

The report raises some good points, but B teams aren't the way, improving coaching at clubs like ours and puttin the vast sums of Premier league and FA money into youth/U21 football makes much, much more sense.

[DonnyNoel]

Haven't read it all but this obsession with getting young pros playing first team football is still not addressing the key issue for me which is youth coaching.

It doesn't matter if a 19 year old is playing for Arsenal, Arsenal B or Accrington - if he wasn't taught well enough at 12-15 then it won't benefit the England team which is what most of this seems to be about. When our youngsters are better then by default less foreign players will be purchased.

I also believe Germany are looking into scrapping the current system they have over there with regards to "B" teams in the pyramid.

[Filo]

It is, but I don't quite get it.  It states about the start of it, but say West Brom had a B team, what happens to it upon their relegation, does it disappear?  I don't quite understand that.  Do newly promoted teams have the right to one - eg could Leicester have had one upon promotion.  Where do they enter?

I'm not sure it would be great for fans of say Leeds to have to visit Man Utd B - it's just silly.

Imagine the league 1 play offs having Arsenal, Man C, Man U and Liverpool B in them - that would be bizarre if it happened, would it then end up with 7th, 8th, 9th and 10th in them?

The report raises some good points, but B teams aren't the way, improving coaching at clubs like ours and puttin the vast sums of Premier league and FA money into youth/U21 football makes much, much more sense.

Take Money from the fat cats? Enter the real world mate, it's the FA and PL we're talking about here!

[BigColSutherland]

Last night: Football Association commission member Danny Mills says a B team league is not part of plans to improve English football. "B teams are on the agenda but not a B team league," Mills told Radio 5 live.

This afternoon: The creation of a new tier within the Football League to accommodate Premier League B teams is at the heart of the Football Association commission's four-point plan to boost English football.

Has Danny not read his own report?

[pib]

Just had a quick scan through the report.

They want all this for, I quote... "a marginal improvement on the percentage of players with loan experiences that reach the first team".

i.e. The current loan system works just about as well as this proposal is projected to do with regards to the development of young players.

What are the chances of this nonsense actually becoming a reality? I hope the Football League and its clubs will provide enough resistance to see it thrown out. But on the other hand, there are several instances to suggest that the FA always get their way eventually.

[silent majority]

Well the FL have just issued a rejection of this in their latest statement.

[Dare to dream!]

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s1m4k9

I like Stan Collymore's points on coaching

[The Red Baron]

The Spanish system seems to have worked well for Marc De Val, doesn't it? Five years in Real Madrid's C team and still not ready for our Championship. 

[silent majority]

This is how well it (doesn't) work in Germany.

http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs

[The Red Baron]

Haven't read it all but this obsession with getting young pros playing first team football is still not addressing the key issue for me which is youth coaching.

It doesn't matter if a 19 year old is playing for Arsenal, Arsenal B or Accrington - if he wasn't taught well enough at 12-15 then it won't benefit the England team which is what most of this seems to be about. When our youngsters are better then by default less foreign players will be purchased.

I also believe Germany are looking into scrapping the current system they have over there with regards to "B" teams in the pyramid.

To be fair to them, they do address coaching and grassroots and say some sensible things most of us could agree with:

•Area 3 - Coaching and coach development, essentially at grassroots level, have not yet reached a satisfactory level and impact.
•Area 4 - England lags behind in the quantity and quality of affordable grassroots facilities, particularly in the provision of all-weather pitches.

The trouble is, when your main proposal is something as far-fetched as their idea for B-Teams, there is a danger that the sensible stuff will get lost.

[The Red Baron]

This is how well it (doesn't) work in Germany.

http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs

And as if to prove that there's no new idea under the sun, something similar was tried in Scotland after WW2 with little success.

http://scottish-football-historical-archive.com/cdiv.htm

I'd imagine the proposed League Three would have similar problems. The B teams would dominate it, but couldn't get promoted, thus blocking the way for the non-League teams in it.

It really is a rotten idea.

[BigColSutherland]

This is how well it (doesn't) work in Germany.
http://www.wsc.co.uk/the-archive/923-Europe/598-the-killer-bs

That article is 7 years old.

A more current perspective here:

http://www.espnfc.com/blog/_/name/bundesliga/id/647?cc=5739

Suggests the system has worked "too well". Depending on your perspective of course.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I've read somewhere (can't remember where) that they're doing away with it in Germany.

The clubs who have B Teams in the 3. Liga (Dortmund, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg etc.) apparently see it as a waste of time, and it's not seen to be helping the national side as they haven't won anything since 1996.

Even so, there seems to be a different culture in other countries, especially in Spain. This may help to explain the relative lack of resistance in the countries where they do this. I'm happy to be corrected on this, but I think I'm right in saying Spanish lower-league football is nowhere near as well supported as the English lower leagues, and doesn't have the same history as the Football League as a proper competition in its own right.

The average attendance in the Spanish second tier in 2013-14 for instance was about 7,000, making it nowhere near as well-watched as the Championship. I don't know how they do further down, but if 2nd tier attendances are that low on average, it suggests that the lower leagues aren't very well supported there.

Pib

Average attendances here.

 http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attn.htm

There is nothing in Europe remotely like the support that our clubs get at Tier 4/5. Only Germany comes close at Tier 3 and even that's not a fair comparison - they only have 36 teams in the top 2 divisions and Tier 3 has only 20. So the Tier 3 sides are the 37th-56th highest ranked clubs. Whereas our L1 comprises the 45th-64th highest clubs in England.

[pib]

Aye. I saw this on Twitter earlier. I think it's taken directly from the FL website. It certainly looks like it is...



Shows quite clearly that tiers 2, 3, and 4 in this country are the highest supported leagues of their kind in Europe.

Obviously, as you highlight, the distributions may be different due to the number of teams, but I think it demonstrates the point nonetheless.

[BigColSutherland]

Is there nothing to be said for bringing back the Anglo-Italian Cup?

[DonnyOsmond]

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/the-football-association-say-no-to-b-teams#share

[PDX_Rover]

And who says the youngsters will even be English?