BREXIT

[wing commander]

Don't be stupid,i based my end decision on researching and listening to people whose opinion i trust...The ex leader of the Fsb.Was someone I've met and admired and I found his views valid,i also work in the steel industry which has been crippled by EU regulation meaning we can't in the interest of free trade impose Levy's on cheap imports...it's all well and good getting all these workers rights but then asking us to compete with country's who work for 50p an hour without offering protection...it's bad for big conglomerates I can understand, but they pay no corporation tax anyway and are still moving labour overseas..like HSBC this very week... immigration and the spiraling cost is also a factor....Norway was told it would suffer yet has prospered well enough...I just don't believe the figures on the cost of leaving and I'm struggling to see how the benefits of staying in outweigh leaving..

[idler]

If we vote to leave and the Tories don't pass any monetary savings to the right areas we can at least vote them out at the next election.
We vote to stay in and the EU can dictate what we can and can't do almost with impunity. I can see them wielding the big stick once we have committed to remaining inside.

[Sammy Chung was King]

I trust none of any of our government, they continually lie. I will base my decision on what i see as the safest option for our country in the long run. The vote decides what sort of country the young kids will grow old in, while also thinking how comfortable you will feel when you are old, and living in this country.
The government wins both ways, the way i see it, they will get they're little perks whether in or out. The country badly needs a rest from the lies and corruption, and the way we the people are treated. Politics is supposed to be a way of making a big amount of peoples lives better, that's supposed to be the reason they get into it, not trying to get every grubby penny going.

What happened to the notion that an mp serves his or her community?. I don't mind them being well paid, i think it's disgusting that bbc executives are paid better than the prime minister, he has a pressurised job, and whatever he decides, he can't please everybody!.
 What does bother me is them continually bringing laws in, that siphon the pocket of the hard working parent, the old, the sick and disabled.
This country badly needs a new start it gets more corrupt by the day!. The hatred this goverment is causing between people is astounding.
We badly need a combined government, who get paid the right amount for the pressure jobs they are in, so they don't have to falsify things.

 The best people from each party, working together for the people they represent. One party will not solve the problems in this country!. The tories have rode roughshod over press freedom of speech, and many other laws, unlike no other who has been in power.
 Does anybody truly feel they can say what they really think about anything?. Do you feel free to speak your mind?. Do you think freedom of speech exists anymore?.
Because i don't and things are just getting worse. There will come a time when people have had enough, don't be surprised if the vote is to leave, some just out of protest at how badly things are being run!.

[BillyStubbsTears]

WingCo

You cannot in all seriousness be comparing us to Norway?

They have had 40 years of sharing huge oil wealth around a population smaller than that of Yorkshire. Of COURSE they have "done alright". They'd have had to f**k up spectacularly to have done badly.

Switzerland is a better example. They have had every advantage imaginable, except membership of the EU. It took them ten years to negotiate a trade deal with the EU. During that time they had significantly worse growth than any of the bug EU countries, despite have strong industrial, pharma and financial sectors and perfect geographical placement.

Funny how you never hear the Leave campaign discuss that.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Given our trade deficit are we sure other countries would wish not to trade with us?  I find it difficult to believe they wouldn't.

[Muttley]

Given our trade deficit are we sure other countries would wish not to trade with us?  I find it difficult to believe they wouldn't.

It is not countries that trade with us, it is individual companies.

And they will typically choose a supplier based on price, quality and ease of doing business.

So, if you've got 2 suppliers offering the same price and quality, but one is in the EU (with whom your country has preferential trading terms eg no tariffs, reduced documentary requirements etc) and one is in the UK (who are having difficulty in negotiating a new trade treaty, and will be for the next 1o years), which one would you choose?

The rest of the world is busy organising itself into trading blocs, but the BREXIT boys think that it's a bettter idea to go it alone! Countries that are not currently aligned with a trading bloc include Turkey (desperately want to be EU), Ukraine (ditto), Iran (international pariah), Mongolia (!), China (huge strength on their own), Japan (notoriously insular). Why does anyone think that leaving the EU could be good for trade in the short/medium term?

[Donnywolf]

If Boris Johnson, Nigel Farage, Michael Gove and Ian Duncan Smith want us to leave then I'm definitely in the REMAIN camp.

... AND Muttley that is the crux of my problem too

Cameron and Osborne say STAY ... and they are the biggest 2 weasels in Politics at the moment with George the weasliest f***** on the Planet so instinctively I want to make sure they don't succeed, but then Gordon Brown says stay too

The 3 you mention are not that inspiring I agree but then there are several people I DO respect saying leave so no wonder I change my mind more often that my Post Count on here changes !

At the moment I am almost in the not voting Camp because I can see the argument for staying AND leaving and I cant vote for both. Truth is I don't think we should ever have got in this mess as we elect Politicians on our own Streets, Locally, Nationally and even within the EU to govern US for better or worse and not to abdicate their responsibility once they come up against a "difficult" decision.

FFS if THEY don't know the answer how do they expect US to be able to come up with a credible answer ? The danger is Remain could be the best bet long term - as could Stay - but we are in a position as a populace where we may pick totally the wrong horse and there wont be another Race coming straight up will there ?

[idler]

The problem with the EU is accountability. The unelected can make decisions that affect the whole of Europe and go spectacularly wrong before lurching to the next ridiculous decision.
It's like being in a large family and trying to keep everybody happy.
I feel that it has grown too big and is corrupt and out of control. Sepp Blatter would have been a good fit for a position there.

[Muttley]

If we vote to leave and the Tories don't pass any monetary savings to the right areas we can at least vote them out at the next election.
We vote to stay in and the EU can dictate what we can and can't do almost with impunity. I can see them wielding the big stick once we have committed to remaining inside.

That's not the way the EU works - they can/would not choose to treat any one member as a whipping boy, the EU endeavours to work in the best interests of all its members, and the members have influence in line with their population (so UK has >10%) - any decisions have to have broad support of the membership.

If you've got the time and inclination, have a read of the attached document that explains how the EU works.

[idler]

Thanks Muttley. I do worry that 10% still leaves another 90% that might not agree with us. I know that democracy means that you look after the majority first but worry that our autonomy/independence will shrink at an alarming rate. There is a big difference between a trading bloc and a federal Europe. Will we or are we creating a monster that will run out of control?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I love this certainty that we would be able to demand whatever deal we wanted with the rest of the EU. This utter certainty that we have power to swing around.

Have a look at how much trade Switzerland does with the EU once they finally got the deal sorted. And then have a look how the EU slapped them down when the Swiss said they wanted to drop out of the freedom of movement agreements.

Anyone who things that the EU will roll over and give us whatever deal we want has not got the faintest idea of how EU politics works. If we smack them in the face, they will NOT say, "No problem lads. Now let's have a nice friendly chat."

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wolf.
Missing the point. It's not JUST Dave and Gideon in the Remain side. If it was, I'd agree with you. It's the fact that it is nearly everyone else, apart from the Rabid Right and a slack handful of flat-earth Far Lefties.

[Donnywolf]

Hi BST

I did get the point but I saw Muttleys Prile of IDS Farage and Boris and raised him a Cameron and an Osborne

The trouble as I tried to point out was that there are Scary Monsters and Supercreeps on both side of the debate as well as a set of well balanced Politicians, Non political luminaries and Heads of Big Businesses all lined up on opposite sides of the debate too !

[Nudga]

So badically no Kitson really knows?

[Muttley]

I know, but I'm f**ked if I'm telling you.

[Bentley Bullet]

I haven't a clue what's the right thing to do. I don't trust Cameron and distrust Osbourne even more. It wouldn't surprise me if those two actually wanted to leave, but were voting tactically in favour of it in the hope that their unpopularity will sway people to vote the other way.

I'm edging towards in favour of leaving, but I fear what the above two would do to the ordinary people of this country if they were let loose with no EU restrictions.

[Muttley]

Shamelessly stolen off someone else, but a good summary...

Alright, you filthy animals. I don't normally do this, because I believe that everyone should have the right to vote how they want at elections, but a) this ain't an election, it's a referendum so go shit yourself, and b) I honestly believe that the stakes are too high for me not to get involved here. If I can influence even one person with this post, then I'll feel like I've done something important. As a result, feel free to share this far and wide as I've done a veritable f**kload of research and I don't want all my hard work going to waste.

So, I'll put my cards on the table: I believe, very very strongly, that we need to stay in the EU. I never thought I'd find myself agreeing with David 'PigFellatio' Cameron, but in this unfortunate case I am, and here's why.

We stand to gain SO MUCH from staying in the EU. "How much", you're (probably not) asking? Well, I made a convenient list for your perusal, WITH sources, so you can't be a t**t and say 'you're making that up!' and froth at the mouth like a rabid Kitson.

I know people on the internet like listicles with clickbait titles, so here are "14 Reasons Why We Shouldn't Leave The EU That Everyone Should Know! You Won't Believe #8!":
1) The EU provides easy access to 1/3 of the world's markets by value (in other words, the EU's combined market value is 1/3 of the entire world's, and we can tap into it whenever the f**k we want). [1] It also gives UK businesses preferential market access to over 50 countries OUTSIDE the EU, including some of the fastest-growing economies in the world like South Korea and South Africa. [2]
2) The EU gives us better product safety. You know, so your toddler doesn't impale him/herself on a shittily designed toy, or swallow a load of poisonous plastic. [3]
3) The EU gives structural funding to areas hit by industrial decline (hello, Cornwall). [4]
4) The EU gave us lead-free petrol. [5]
5) The EU gives us cheaper mobile charges. [6] It also gives us cheaper air travel. [7] f**k yeah, cheap things!
6) The EU gives us cleaner beaches, rivers and air (hello again, Cornwall). [8]
7) The EU gives us improved consumer protection and food labelling, so you actually know what it's in your Chicken McNuggets (hint: it's chicken. It wasn't always chicken, though). [9]
8) The EU has helped break up monopolies. [10] If you don't know why monopolies are a Very Bad Thing, try playing the popular board game 'Monopoly' and see how many friends you have left when you win.
9) The EU gives us cross-border policing to combat human trafficking, arms and drug smuggling, and terrorism. [11]
10) Being a member of the EU means no paperwork or customs for exports throughout the single market, as well as the freedom to travel, live and work across Europe. [12] This one is particularly important for me as someone who likes to live, work and travel abroad. Do you have ANY IDEA how f**king great it is to be able to travel and work visa-free?! Having to a get a visa for every single country you enter is a nightmare, believe me. If you've ever tried to travel around Asia, Africa or South America, you'll understand what I'm saying.
11) The EU creates and helps uphold all kinds of awesome human rights, such as equal pay legislation, holiday entitlement, and the right not to work more than a 48-hour week without overtime. [13] I'd also like to point out that it's some of these same human rights that David 'Porkt**tter' Cameron tried to erode back in 2014, with the EU playing a major role in stopping him. [14]
12) The EU creates and upholds all kinds of great animal welfare legislation; it has the strongest wildlife protection laws in the world and contributes to improved animal welfare in food production. [15]
13) The EU funds incredible scientific research and industrial collaboration (including, most recently, a project that may be the catalyst for a cure for breast cancer being found in the next few years, I shit you not). [16]
14) Finally, and arguably most importantly, the EU has for 60 years been the foundation of peace between European neighbours after many years of bloodshed. [17] It has also assisted in the extraordinary social, political and economic transformation of 13 former dictatorships, now EU members, since 1980. [18]

SOURCES:
[1] http://news.cbi.org.uk/…/eu-business-facts/10-facts-about-…/
[2] http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_MEMO-13-1080_en.htm
[3] http://ec.europa.eu/…/general_product_safety_d…/index_en.htm
[4] http://ec.europa.eu/…/general_product_safety_d…/index_en.htm
[5] http://ec.europa.eu/environme…/…/project/Projects/index.cfm…
[6] https://www.theguardian.com/…/europe-abolishes-mobile-phone…
[7] http://europa.eu/…/citizens/travel/passeng…/air/index_en.htm
[8] http://www.theguardian.com/…/england-beaches-bathing-waters…
[9] http://ec.europa.eu/…/la…/labelling_legislation/index_en.htm
[10] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w…/European_Union_competition_law (I know I'm not supposed to use Wikipedia as a source for its less-than-rigorous academic standards, but f**k YOU I'm not in uni anymore, I'll do what I like).
[11] http://heinonline.org/HOL/LandingPage…
[12] http://ec.europa.eu/…/borders-and-…/visa-policy/index_en.htm
[13] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/…/European_Convention_on_Human_R…
[14] http://www.telegraph.co.uk/…/David-Camerons-plan-to-scrap-t…
[15] http://ec.europa.eu/food/animals/welfare/index_en.htm
[16] http://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/94691_en.html
[17] The Second World War, motherf**ker. Read a history book.
[18] The Cold War, motherf**ker. Read a history book.

And now, let's take a moment to address some of the arguments for leaving the EU. Apart from the fact that I can't find a single reputable study that suggests we'd be any better off outside of the EU (and believe me, I've looked; I want to research my counterarguments as thoroughly as my arguments), the most persuasive arguments I've found are what I'm going to term 'the trade argument' and 'the immigration argument'.

The trade argument goes as follows: if we left the EU, we could negotiate a sort of 'amicable divorce' where we somehow retain strong trading links with the EU while not being subject to its laws. Many people point to Canada as a good example of this model, which recently negotiated a CETA (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement- do I have to google EVERYTHING for you?) with the EU. I have two retorts to this argument. My first retort: Canada was never a part of the EU in the first place. To return to the divorce analogy outlined above- whereby the EU and the U.K. are a sort of 'married couple' and trade is their kids- the U.K. seeking a CETA after leaving the EU would be like a nasty, messy divorce where one parent uses the kids as a weapon against the other, threatening to take them away whenever their demands aren't met. Canada's CETA, meanwhile, is like a married couple approaching someone else to have a threesome at a swinger's party, which sounds a lot more fun and exciting, I'm sure you'll agree. My second retort to the above argument is simple: why even take the risk? If we stay in the EU, our trade with them will continue to be prosperous and full of great sex while the kids are asleep (okay, I've taken the analogy too far now). If we leave, however, there's a chance any trade agreement could fail catastrophically and leave our economy in a shitstorm. In fact, I would argue the likes of Germany, France and other leading EU nations would not simply let us pick and choose what rules and trade agreements we adhere to, so the likelihood of us being absolutely fine, trade-wise, after leaving the EU seems overly optimistic. Plus negotiating a CETA of any kind could take years and have a completely uncertain outcome. Again, why take the risk? An additional point: arguments no. 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, 11, and 12 above are examples of really great laws and regulations the EU has introduced. If you say you want to leave the EU so we have autonomy over our own laws, you know that you're effectively handing control of our country over to David 'HideTheSausageLiterally' Cameron, don't you? In terms of making laws that benefit all of us, I trust the EU way more than that guy.

The immigration argument tends to centre around the whole 'visa-free work and travel' thing, and is generally espoused by people terrified of dem immigantz stealin are jobz. Alternatively it's espoused by people afraid of terrorists being able to come here more easily, but for that I'd refer you to point no. 9 above; we're safer from terrorism in the EU because we can share intelligence and resources with other countries more easily. But back to the 'stealing our jobs' fear; while it's true that technically speaking there could be an influx of foreigners coming to claim your particular job at any moment, just remember, we've been part of the EU for 43 years now and it hasn't happened yet, despite what the mainstream media may tell you (and you DEFINITELY shouldn't trust those guys; more on that later). Seriously, do you know ANYONE, personally, that has had their job stolen by a foreigner? Be honest now. I'd be willing to wager that you don't, and I'll explain why that is too: the immigrants that are coming here are not stealing YOUR jobs, specifically. They're either starting their own businesses (in which case they're actually creating jobs), or they're skilled labourers taking jobs there just aren't enough trained British people to take (such as doctors or surgeons), or they're unskilled labourers taking the jobs that you don't want (like toilet cleaning or washing dishes). Incidentally, about a year ago I taught English to some Eastern European immigrants who worked in a salad-packing factory in Lichfield. One Latvian girl was actually a teacher back home, but she was making more money as a salad-packer here than she was as a teacher in Latvia(!)- the point being that unskilled immigrant workers are generally happy to work shitty menial jobs that no British person wants, and your cushy 9-to-5 office job is not under threat. Not even a little bit- so don't worry your xenophobic little head about it. Oh, and one last thing on this subject, to paraphrase Louis CK: maybe, if an immigrant with no contacts, no skills and no local knowledge of the language and/or culture can steal your job, maybe, just maybe, you're shit at your job.

If you've made it thus far through this absolute essay of a post, congratulations! You're nearly at the end! But before I go, I just want to hit you with one final thought. Over 80% of UK newspapers are owned by five right-wing media billionaires (aka five massive Kitsonstacks): Lord Rothermere (Daily Mail), Rupert Murdoch (Sun/Times), Richard Desmond (Express), and the Barclay Brothers (Telegraph). Murdoch is an Australian living in New York and Rothermere lives in France, while the Barclay Brothers live in the tax havens of Monaco and Guernsey. All of them use tax haven entities to avoid UK taxes. And guess who wants to stop billionaires using tax havens to avoid paying their taxes? That's right, the EU. So of COURSE the British newspapers are trying to persuade you to leave the EU; it benefits their owners personally. The moral of the story is, don't gather your views from newspapers. Do some research like I have with this post, you lazy twonknoggin.

In conclusion: we're in a really great position right now. We're part of the EU with all the benefits that entails, but without being tied to their notoriously unstable currency. Leaving the EU would not only be hypocritical since we spent so much time telling Scotland they shouldn't leave the UK this time last year with all that lovely 'better together' rhetoric, it might also be downright stupid and harmful to our economy.

[Donnywolf]

I know, but I'm f**ked if I'm telling you.

... BUT we might all be f***** if you don't !

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wolf

Who are these "well balanced politicians" on the Brexit side?

As far as I can see, there is UKIP, the right wing of the Tory party, and a couple of awkward squad minor Labour MPs who have always had views which sit as well with UKIP as with Labour. Oh aye. And Boris, who would flip to "Remain" tomorrow if he thought it would get him closer to being the next PM.

There really isn't a balance here. The overwhelming spectrum of politicians supports Remain. The overwhelming majority of economists support Remain. The majority of business leaders support Remain. The majority of military and security leaders support Remain.

The fact that you have the impression that there is a balance here is a reflection on the BBC's obsession with presenting a "he says this, but the other side counters with this" approach. It gives an impression of finely balanced difference of opinion between experts, where nothing could be further from the truth.

[Donnywolf]

Wolf

There really isn't a balance here. The overwhelming spectrum of politicians supports Remain. The overwhelming majority of economists support Remain. The majority of business leaders support Remain. The majority of military and security leaders support Remain.

Probably true ... which begs the question I keep raising here and elsewhere ... namely :

Why did the overwhelming spectrum of Politicians bother to leave it to us with the risk of getting the wrong result ? We as an uneducated electorate* may well s*** this up as I posted earlier

* I mean on this particular issue of course not in the I.Q. department

[Glyn_Wigley]

To neuter UKIP. It's that simple.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The EU vote is basically about dealing with an otherwise insoluble civil war on the right of British politics. It is only people on the right of British politics who have any interest in this question (barring the worst of the flat-earth Socialist Worker remnants). For everyone else, the answer is so bleeding obvious that it doesn't even need asking.

But on the Right, they have been tearing themselves apart over Europe for 30 years. The centre and the right of the Tory party have fundamentally incompatible philosophies about what our relationship with Europe should be. One side has to get ascendancy over the other. The only way to do it is to let the people decide, and for the winning side to crush the losing side.

What we are doing, is risking the long term economic well being of ourselves, and potentially the long term security/stability of Europe in order to cut the Tory party's Gordian Knot.

[Donnywolf]

As usual we will bear all the s*** and fallout when it ends "inconclusively" as it may well do. Neither of the opposing factions in the Tory Party / UKIP and others will be happy if the result lies anywhere like for example 45 - 55 or 55 - 45

No doubt Cameron would claim 55 Remain to 45 Leave "a conclusive triumph" and "the people have spoken clearly and unequivocally" while Boris and Farage would be calling it "inconclusive"

Reverse the numbers to 45 remain and 55 leave and the very same protagonists would have exactly the opposite opinions on the result - or have I joined the supposition party as well ?

Extra time and penalties anyone ? Just what we f*****g need

[BillyStubbsTears]

Anyone who despairs at the quality of the debate on the referendum question (and I very much include myself in that group) needs to remember what is the level of debate that many of the voters can deal with.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36373649

God f**king help us. This woman may have the vote that tips the balance for my kids' future.

[BobG]

Many thanks Muttley I enjoyed reading that stolen essay.  He's not wrong either is he?

One question though: I thought the perjorative 'Kitson' was a purely local Donny thing. A thing we'd hit upon because of a few odd matches that twonk played against us. So how come your correspondent used 'Kitson' too? Is he a Rovers supporter? Or is 'Kitson' in much more widespread use than I imagined?

Thanks Muttley!

BobG

[BobG]

Anyone who despairs at the quality of the debate on the referendum question (and I very much include myself in that group) needs to remember what is the level of debate that many of the voters can deal with.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36373649

God f**king help us. This woman may have the vote that tips the balance for my kids' future.
[/quote

I reckon the EU should force legislation for involuntary euthanasia

Bob

[Bentley Bullet]

I also wondered about the use of the word Kitson in the article, thinking it was purely a VSC forum word, used only its members. In fact it might have been me that invented it!

[BobG]

Lol! I wondered if the article was one of Billy's from another forum somewhere!

Bob

[Bentley Bullet]

I wondered that, but then realised I agreed with it too much for it to be him! 

[ZiggerZagger]

I'm voting out.
 I want to be able to vote out a government that doesn't do what it said it would. Not a unelected bunch of people who tell us what we can or cannot do.
I want us to be able to say who can come into our country. Not being told we have to let anyone of 500million European citizens who want to come here without being able to say no.
I want to be part of Europe, as my wife is a "foreigner" but not ruled by them.
As for all these lovely signs that say built with funding from the EUSSR, remember people it's our money what we've paid in anyway.
But the big one for me is, why are the so called big news channels, BBC ITN and Sky not reporting what is actually going off in Europe with the migration epidemic. I know from speaking to the wifes family members it's like a war zone. Riots everywhere, people are actually getting killed, parts of towns and cities you can no longer go,  yet nothing on our news.
The wife's Grandmother thinks they will be another war throughout Europe, not country against country but each country fighting itself from being taken over. Her words echo in my head every day. "When the Nazi arrived in the long black coats and shinny boots we knew who we were fighting. Now the Nazi sits behind a desk with no face yet is more powerful ".
I know who I believe n she's 94.