Labour vs Labour

[The Red Baron]

A headline makers dream this Glass resignation.
' Is this the glass ceiling'
'Glass shatters record'  etc

A rally planned by Momentum for later today has had to be cacelled due to so many Corbyn supporters wanting to attend.
Not looking good for any challengers if he continues to dig his heels in.

Cancelled due to too much interest! That's a new one. Presumably the venue was too small.

Is it just me, but when they talk about  "Momentum" I keep thinking  "Militant." Reeks of a party within a party.

[Donnywolf]

Labour won't challenge at the next election regardless of whether Corbyn leads of not. Eagle would find hersekg in Corbyns position pretty quickly and Benn and Jarvis are war monguerers. Corbyns job now must be to scourge these Career politicians and those happy to stick the knife in and bring about true reform to the Labour Party.
I've said it from the start of the coup but should Corbyn be overthrown I will cancel my membership and never vote for the party again. It isn't that he's gone but the manner in which it's taken place by Torys in Red ties.

.... not to mention those on here (and throughout the Country) who gladly paid £3 to get a vote and made sure Labour got a Leader that they may not have.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

A headline makers dream this Glass resignation.
' Is this the glass ceiling'
'Glass shatters record'  etc

A rally planned by Momentum for later today has had to be cacelled due to so many Corbyn supporters wanting to attend.
Not looking good for any challengers if he continues to dig his heels in.

Cancelled due to too much interest! That's a new one. Presumably the venue was too small.

Is it just me, but when they talk about  "Momentum" I keep thinking  "Militant." Reeks of a party within a party.

Exactly what it is.

[jonrover]

Never had a chance? What was he doing during the local elections and the referendum then? Anything?

Far more than the press would have you believe

[jonrover]

A headline makers dream this Glass resignation.
' Is this the glass ceiling'
'Glass shatters record'  etc

A rally planned by Momentum for later today has had to be cacelled due to so many Corbyn supporters wanting to attend.
Not looking good for any challengers if he continues to dig his heels in.

Cancelled due to too much interest! That's a new one. Presumably the venue was too small.

Is it just me, but when they talk about  "Momentum" I keep thinking  "Militant." Reeks of a party within a party.

No, I'm involved with momentum and nothing is further from the truth...progress however....

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well, whatever Jezza decides to do, he won't be Leader Of The Opposition this time next year.

[Filo]

Because of his stubborness we are destined to become a one party state, the Labour Party will split and so will their core voters, the climate is ripe for UKIP of the LibDems to be the main opposition party

[The Red Baron]

A headline makers dream this Glass resignation.
' Is this the glass ceiling'
'Glass shatters record'  etc

A rally planned by Momentum for later today has had to be cacelled due to so many Corbyn supporters wanting to attend.
Not looking good for any challengers if he continues to dig his heels in.

Cancelled due to too much interest! That's a new one. Presumably the venue was too small.

Is it just me, but when they talk about  "Momentum" I keep thinking  "Militant." Reeks of a party within a party.

No, I'm involved with momentum and nothing is further from the truth...progress however....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=iS-0Az7dgRY

 

[Copps is Magic]

When you step back a little its quite surprising to find people defending a labour party at its lowest ebb for decades - as something that somehow needs to be sustained, propped up with some faux clothesline leadership but not actually any closer to power because of it.

Let's change tack here. If not Corbyn then who?

[wesisback]

The big question for me is this. Would you trust a single politician that has been involved over the last few days?
I've personally emailed Winterton thanking her for her loyalty shown to a leader decided by the biggest Labour membership since Blair was elected as PM.
In terms of this 'militant group' nothing could be further from the truth and I find it disheartening to see anyone criticising any kind of movement that has seen young people engage in politicics. BST, your argument seems to based on 'it hasn't worked for me so why should it work for you?' and Glyn, how you cannot see this as a coup by MPs that seem to have grossly misread the feelings of their constituents is beyond me. Corbyn will not lose any leadership vote taken by the Members of the Labour Party. I'd be stunned if he didn't fair better than he did just last year.
So who is at fault for dividing the Labour Party? A man who has decided to stand by the people who have voted him to represent their party or war mongers like Benn who could take some loyalty tips from Judas Iscariot?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wes

No. You're personalising it. And, frankly, your comments about Hilary Benn are a disgrace, and are identical to the way in which centre-left politicians were treated by Militant et al in the 1980s. That's not acceptable debate. It is the, "I'm right, therefore anyone else must by definition be an amoral Kitson" approach to politics.

I'll keep saying it. That's what we did in the 1980s. I and many others a deeply ashamed of that and deeply sorry for the way that we let down the country and the people we thought we were representing.

You ask who is at fault for dividing the Labour Party? It's the "membership" (sic) which is indulging itself in the comfort zone of its own bubble and utterly failing to see the larger picture in the country. They have convinced themselves that, because they KNOW what the solution is, the country will follow.

It won't. It doesn't. It'll hurt, but you will learn the lesson that (most of) my generation learned. Unfortunately, a f**k-load other people will get hurt far more on the way.


 

[MachoMadness]

The alternatives for leadership seem to be Angela Eagle and Dan Jarvis, neither of whom jump out at you as election winners anyway, and neither of whom would have the support of members, donors or unions following their conduct in this sorry affair. None of them will get Labour any closer to power over the next decade than Corbyn. The less said about Watson the better.

The only one I can see who's better than Corbyn is Andy Burnham, who's already thrown his hat in another ring anyway.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn, how you cannot see this as a coup by MPs that seem to have grossly misread the feelings of their constituents is beyond me.

Because their constituents voted for them as representative of a Labour Party led by Ed Miliband. They certainly didn't vote for them as representative of a Labour Party led by Corbyn. So how exactly have they have 'grossly misread' them?

[Copps is Magic]

ahh yes, Ed Miliband, a party united behind its leader - how did that end up?

[MachoMadness]

Labour members - who give money to allow those MPs to run - voted him in overwhelmingly. Labour voters joined the party en masse. Labour voters still overwhelmingly supported Labour under Corbyn in local elections AND in the referendum. What makes you think his mandate has in any way diminished?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yeah. That's an old Left standard.

Conflate "The feelings of Labour activists and my peer group" with "The feelings of constituents".

I'm feeling quite nostalgic. I wonder what the next one is going to be?

And THIS is the core of the problem with Corbyn and his circle. This is the reason why he is unfit to be a leader. It's because a leader of an organisation as disparate as the Labour party, builds a broad coalition of support. (S)he synthesises opinions and beliefs from a wide, and often difficult to reconcile range. They develop messy compromises that perfectly suit no-one, but that most are able to support to some extent.

And THAT is why Corbyn is unfit to be a leader. He's not a compromiser. He's not a synthesising politician. He is a factionalist and someone utterly convinced of his own approach. That is a sexy message to give to those who agree with you. It makes people want to give body and soul to the cause. Trouble is, it does the square root of f**k all to convince those who don't agree with you. True leaders get their hands dirty in the messy, unpleasant, deeply unsexy compromises that make real politics work. Corbyn has never and will never do that. Therefore he cannot possibly lead an organisation as diverse as Labour.

[Glyn_Wigley]

ahh yes, Ed Miliband, a party united behind its leader - how did that end up?

As a party with 229 MPs in the Commons. How many do you think Corbyn will leave it with?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Labour members - who give money to allow those MPs to run - voted him in overwhelmingly. Labour voters joined the party en masse. Labour voters still overwhelmingly supported Labour under Corbyn in local elections AND in the referendum. What makes you think his mandate has in any way diminished?

Then he'll stroll any Leader election  challenge and put all the MPs in their place then, won't he?

[MachoMadness]

You'd imagine so, yes. If it turns out I'm wrong on that despite all polls suggesting his approval rating among members is higher now than it was when he was elected, I'll gladly admit I was wrong though.

Why do you think the PLP is so desperate to have him resign rather than run in an election?

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm feeling quite nostalgic. I wonder what the next one is going to be?

The one I remember being chucked around in the 80s was 'the electorate have never had a true socialist option to vote for'.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Macho.

Labour voters joined the party en masse?

Give me strength.

Look at the current scale of Labour party membership:

4% of all the people who voted Labour in 2015
<3% of the number of people that we'd need to see a majority Labour Govt
0.8% of the electorate.

Is it so hard to see? Overwhelming support from a tiny, specific sub-set of the population is no indication of anything at all, other than that sub-set's personal preference. It means nothing about either Corbyn's personal and professional ability. It means nothing about his ability to reach out beyond that sub-set.

[Glyn_Wigley]

You'd imagine so, yes. If it turns out I'm wrong on that despite all polls suggesting his approval rating among members is higher now than it was when he was elected, I'll gladly admit I was wrong though.

Yes, I think he'd win a Leadership election if challenged and he ran himself.

THat's not the problem though. If he won, all those MPs who voted that they have no confidence in him will be in an untenable position. So they'll quit the party and set their own up. Which will immediately become the Official Opposition and the leader of the new party will take the title of Leader of the Opposition from Corbyn, consigning Corbyn and his rump to insignificance and ineffectiveness, or at worst, nothing more than a joke.

Now, I'm not saying I want to see that happen but it's what will happen if Corbyn wins a challenge to his leadership.

[Copps is Magic]

And what fair test have we had thus far of his ability to reach beyond this sub-set you are referring to?

[Glyn_Wigley]

And what fair test have we had thus far of his ability to reach beyond this sub-set you are referring to?

The Local elections, perhaps?

[MachoMadness]

Latest word on the street (Sky News, so take it with a shaker of salt) is that a lot of the timing of this has to do with Chilcot, and Corbyn is hanging on to release a statement on it and call for a Blair war crimes trial.

BST,

That's all well and good, but the Labour Party was unelectable before and I'd wager having a stronger member base would help their voter base expand exponentially. That is, if resources are going into campaigning and not staging a coup.

Every test Corbyn's Labour has had so far, they've done better than expected. Before, they were doing significantly worse than expected. Centrist Labour certainly wasn't appealing beyond that subset, and if it really is about Corbyn's fitness to lead, surely it's the party's job to shield Corbyn's weaknesses instead of standing there with the knives out ready to expose him from day one.

I keep saying it, Corbyn's failure is a self-fulfilling prophecy on behalf of the PLP.

[MachoMadness]

And what fair test have we had thus far of his ability to reach beyond this sub-set you are referring to?

The Local elections, perhaps?

In which Labour actually did fairly well? I know opposition parties tend to do well in local elections, but it was widely considered Corbyn's Labour would get mullered. They weren't.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps:

His alienation of all bar a 20% sub-set of MPs? Do you think they are ALL Blairite regicides? Do you think that all of them are doing this for personal gain? Do you stop and think for a moment that when MPs who have been politically close to Corbyn go on record as saying that they cannot work with HIM personally, that they have been in meetings where he has ignored every opinion that runs counter to his own, that they might just have a point? From personal experience?

[wesisback]

Wes

No. You're personalising it. And, frankly, your comments about Hilary Benn are a disgrace, and are identical to the way in which centre-left politicians were treated by Militant et al in the 1980s. That's not acceptable debate. It is the, "I'm right, therefore anyone else must by definition be an amoral Kitson" approach to politics.

I'll keep saying it. That's what we did in the 1980s. I and many others a deeply ashamed of that and deeply sorry for the way that we let down the country and the people we thought we were representing.

You ask who is at fault for dividing the Labour Party? It's the "membership" (sic) which is indulging itself in the comfort zone of its own bubble and utterly failing to see the larger picture in the country. They have convinced themselves that, because they KNOW what the solution is, the country will follow.

It won't. It doesn't. It'll hurt, but you will learn the lesson that (most of) my generation learned. Unfortunately, a f**k-load other people will get hurt far more on the way.

172 MPs voted against Corbyn, 184 abstained on austerity cuts. I know who I believe sits closer to my beliefsurprise. I uphold my comments on Benn (I actually toned down my opinion for the Viking Chat public).
There is no candidate currently within the Labour Party who would fair any better than Corbyn, however removing him will ostracise a generation of Labour voters forever.

[MachoMadness]

Chris Ship ✔ @chrisshipitv
NEW: Just been told Corbyn has said in the last day he wants out, he's had enough. But his Dir of Comms @SeumasMilne told him he should stay

[BillyStubbsTears]

Macho

By what measure did Labour "actually do fairly well" in the local Govt elections. Those elections were, broadly, in the same councils and wards as the those competed in 2012.

In 2016, Labour LOST seats compared to 2012. And remember that in 2015, Labour was annihilated. So, under Corbyn, at a similar point in the cycle, Labour is already doing worse than it did in the last Parlimament.

AND, in 2012, Labour was facing a united Tory party, In May 2016, Labour was facing a fractious and divided Tory party. And Labour STILL did worse than in 2012.

You can dress it up all you like, but there is no evidence whatsoever of Corbyn reaching out beyond the laager of the committed.