Labour vs Labour

[MachoMadness]

After another day in the story that just grows and grows, it seems the situation is this:

Members, funders and unions vs the vast majority of MPs

Corbyn faces a no confidence vote but as his support among members is even higher now than it was when he was elected he will rinse any challenger. Even if he does get ousted, who will replace him? Eagle? Watson? Are any of them even remotely electable despite being more central? What happens then when the PLP is happy but you've pissed off everyone who's giving you money?

I can't help but feel there's a self-fulfilling prophecy about all this. Whatever you think of Corbyn, surely this botched coup has done more damage to Labour than he ever could.

[IDM]

I don't know the ins and outs of this, but even if JC has the support of the party masses, surely his position is untenable if the majority of labour MPs don't?

One thing is for sure, floating voters and those who traditionally support the other parties won't vote Labour under this turmoil..

[BobG]

The odds on the Labour Party splitting in two must be shortening by the hour MM. And no. This coup attempt may fail and may well do great harm, but can you really imagine that harm being as great as that inflicted by a man who is driving his party towards a grievous split, and, who even if a split is avoided, can only ever appeal to 100% of 20% of the electorate? if he stays, one way or the other, he will kill the Labour Party.

I saw a reasoned estimate today that if Corbyn leads the Labour Party into an election in 6-9 months time, he will come back as leader of 75 MP's.  THAT is doing damage to the Labour Party. The man is totally bereft of judgement.

BobG

[MachoMadness]

See Bob, the way I look at it, it's the PLP who are to blame for that. They decided he's not the man before he was elected and so when all their rebellions and public machinations damage Labour in the eyes of voters they'll go "See! Look! We got battered in the election, we told you Corbyn was bad for us!"

Corbyn was elected with an overwhelming mandate. Sixty-odd percent in a four horse race. Maybe the reason Labour will come back with 75 MPs is that people don't see any point in voting for a party that doesn't respect its mandate?

Sadly a split is very much on the cards, but Corbyn only shoulders a minority of the blame.

[i_ateallthepies]

Yes Bob, and bereft of any concern for the millions of people who desperately need an electable labour party to give them any hope for their futures.

[i_ateallthepies]

I see this as the sea opening up for the Lib/Dems when 12 months ago they were staring at the prospect of being in the political wilderness for the next 20 years.  Seems to me they only need to present a united front and the right manifesto to be in with a real chance of ousting one of the big 2.

[BobG]

I hope you are right Pies - even though I despise the Liberals for their craven power grab not so long ago. I hope you're right because the alternative is that UKIP hoover up the disaffected Labour votes. They are clearly well on the way to achieving that to a very significant degree already. If they carry on doing so they could end up being the official opposition....

Bob

[wilts rover]

I dunno Pies, people haven't forgotten Clegg and the broken promises that quickly.

There is a movement acroos the world for people to reject traditional politics and traditional elites, Trump, Podemos, I wonder if the Greens might step into the void? Or a completly new left of centre party on the Scottish model?

[Akinfenwa]

With 54 loyal MPs, are the SNP now considered to be the official opposition? 

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Clearly I'm no leftie, but any government needs a credible opposition. We don't have that right now and it's not a positive.  Whilst I disagree with many policies, I do think some of the points in opposition have been justified.

Labour are falling apart right now and it could kill the party completely.  There is the historic northern base etc, which is at odds with this newer momentum lot, most of which are more militant, London based largely and less tolerant of opposing views.  But that suits Corbyn, it's what he is.  He should go, but what happens if he bloody wins again? The party will fall apart.  Great many could say but, the alternative could be much worse.

It seems our own Rosie winterton remains by his side also as a side point. Interesting.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The job of the leader of any political party is to keep people with a wide spectrum of similar views together and in the same direction. Corbyn can wave his membership majority about as much as he likes but if he can't unite his own MPs behind him (at least enough to keep any divisions behind closed doors) his position is completely untenable.

[Glyn_Wigley]

He should go, but what happens if he bloody wins again?

SDP Mk2.

But there'll be a damn sight more than just a Gang Of Four.

[Copps is Magic]

Corbyn has a clear mandate. Work out what this means for the labour movement in your own minds and come to terms with it because it won't change.

[Copps is Magic]

I also think some of you are mercilessly out of touch with popular opinion if you think the priority is for a leader whose primary objective should be to unite their party.

[jonrover]

Corbyn has never been accepted by the vast majority of the PLP so I'm not even entirely why there is such a media scrum around this, even more so since the Torygraph reported what was going to happen 10 days before it did...perhaps there is a reason, something that might be happening very soon that the PLP are desperate to deflect attention from, something which will be an embarrassment to many of those who are stirring up this shit?

I know one thing for sure, if they are successful in ousting Corbyn and bringing in another Blairite stiff, I'll tear my membership card up, and I'll never vote Labour again. Seriously. What would be the point?

What is happening it an affront on democracy, regardless what you think of Corbyn. He is elected by the members, supporters and affiliates and he has a mandate that was even bigger that the war mongerers. And if the MP's cant toe the line, they should be de-selected, starting with that shithouse Flint.

[Copps is Magic]

Well put Jon. I share the same sentiments also.

[Sammy Chung was King]

The whole system is on the edge of major change, the way things are done, are outdated. When the people stop believing in the system they vote for, and you get an unlikely result like the referendum threw up, it can only point to change.
The labour party must do this, to be in any sort of position, to be strong enough to challenge, when the almost inevitable general election happens.
None of the candidates mentioned in the papers will make any difference, it needs a new face, someone new to the political scene, who hasn't been tarred or corrupted too much, by how things are done.

You need likeability, the ability to get on with many different people. An analytical brain. Somebody who commands a room when they are in it. Somebody who can lead a wide range of people while also representing our country against what could be very unconventional divisive leaders who could be elected in other countries.
I don't see these qualities in either parties candidates, nor any of the other parties. Out of those who aren't currently involved, David Miliband would be a good choice, he has a lot of the qualities needed.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

What you are saying echoes right down the decades from 1982. It was me talking then. The exact words and sentiments. Unity is less important than taking the party in the direction that we decide it must go. Those traitors on the Right of the party are destroying us.

You will never, ever in this country, come within a country mile of winning a General Election whilst you convince yourself of that approach. I guess every generation has to learn it for themselves.

 I'll hammer the point remorselessly. Labour has not, will not and cannot win when it convinces itself that the country thinks like its party members think. So long as Labour activists convince themselves that the important issue is staying true to the beliefs of the majority of a self-reinforcing 0.3% of the population, Labour is ruined.

Jon. If this was a revolt by a handful of Blairite awkward squad members, I'd agree with you. But it is wilful ignorance to convince yourself that this is all it is. 80% of the PLP has voted against Corbyn.

The members who love him are the ones who get no closer to him than cheering him on at rallies as he paints broad ideal. The PLP are the people who have to work with him in those boring, mundane practical things. Like presenting a Party and policies to the public beyond.

You cannot ignore what 80% of the PLP say, unless you have convinced yourself that this is a politically motivated coup. But then, look at the people who have come out against Corbyn. They are from all wings of the Party.

Because this is NOT about policy! It is about Corbyn's competence as a leader.

[Sammy Chung was King]

I get the impression, they think he is a decent guy, just not a leader, and they can't get elected, while he reigns. It doesn't seem to be personal, it's for the good of themselves of being on a winning team and the good of the party as a whole.

[jonrover]

Fact is though Billy, he has never been given a chance as a leader by either the PLP or the media. What the PLP are afraid of is if he tears out the undemocratic structures built by Blair which are a threat to the careerist tossers we have either in the PLP or who are waiting in the wings as spads. People need to look beyond Corbyn and look at his vision for a better society. Some of his policy ideas are hugely popular, even with Tory voters, like renationalisation of the railways (something possible now we're out of the EU -even though I voted remain!) We need a to offer the electorate a radical alternate to austerity, something Miliband failed to grasp which is one of the reasons core Labour voters are looking to UKIP as a misguided solution to their problems and blaming immigrants for all their problems.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Never had a chance? What was he doing during the local elections and the referendum then? Anything?

[The Red Baron]

I wonder how things would have turned out for Corbyn if he'd followed the logic of his political career and come out for Leave?

I'll probably muse further on the subject later!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Jon

As I keep saying, this is not about policy. It's about Corbyn's fitness to lead. We've just had an extended example of it over the campaign. He was, by turn, invisible, ambivalent and self-indulgent. And, I suspect, mendacious in how he, himself actually believed the vote should go, and actually voted.

You can't lead a national political party in the style of a student debating society.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Fact is though Billy, he has never been given a chance as a leader by either the PLP or the media. What the PLP are afraid of is if he tears out the undemocratic structures built by Blair which are a threat to the careerist tossers we have either in the PLP or who are waiting in the wings as spads. People need to look beyond Corbyn and look at his vision for a better society. Some of his policy ideas are hugely popular, even with Tory voters, like renationalisation of the railways (something possible now we're out of the EU -even though I voted remain!) We need a to offer the electorate a radical alternate to austerity, something Miliband failed to grasp which is one of the reasons core Labour voters are looking to UKIP as a misguided solution to their problems and blaming immigrants for all their problems.

So he was elected leader by using 'undemocratic structures'..? How can what the PLP is doing be an 'affront to democracy' then? You can't have it both ways...

[Glyn_Wigley]

And if the MP's cant toe the line, they should be de-selected, starting with that shithouse Flint.

Don't worry, if Corbyn stays, he won't have any MPs to de-select. All he'll have is a rump of about 40 loyalists. If he's lucky.

[wesisback]

Labour won't challenge at the next election regardless of whether Corbyn leads of not. Eagle would find hersekg in Corbyns position pretty quickly and Benn and Jarvis are war monguerers. Corbyns job now must be to scourge these Career politicians and those happy to stick the knife in and bring about true reform to the Labour Party.
I've said it from the start of the coup but should Corbyn be overthrown I will cancel my membership and never vote for the party again. It isn't that he's gone but the manner in which it's taken place by Torys in Red ties.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Labour won't challenge at the next election regardless of whether Corbyn leads of not. Eagle would find hersekg in Corbyns position pretty quickly and Benn and Jarvis are war monguerers. Corbyns job now must be to scourge these Career politicians and those happy to stick the knife in and bring about true reform to the Labour Party.
I've said it from the start of the coup but should Corbyn be overthrown I will cancel my membership and never vote for the party again. It isn't that he's gone but the manner in which it's taken place by Torys in Red ties.

What if he goes into a full and proper leadership election but this time loses? Would you consider that a coup by the party membership?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wes

Once again, I'm hearing my own words from 30 years ago.

The casual denigration of people to the right of centre in the Labour Party as being Tory in all but name, is infantile, intellectually vacuous and ultimately self-defeating.

You go into the comfort zone of saying "my Labour Party or no Labour Party" if you wish. I did that in the early 80s and the results were utterly catastrophic.

And don't reel off the equally vacuous "it'll be different this time" response. We did that back then too. And I see nothing in the response of the Left today to say that they even wish to engage with that history, let alone learn from it.

You go off to your comfort zone, being convinced that you are correct and it is everyone else in the party that is wrong. And the result will be PM Boris until 2030.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Well done Jezza, you're a record breaker!

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/pat-glass-resigns-from-labour-shadow-cabinet-two-days-after-she-was-appointed-by-jeremy-corbyn-a7108916.html

[tommy toes]

A headline makers dream this Glass resignation.
' Is this the glass ceiling'
'Glass shatters record'  etc

A rally planned by Momentum for later today has had to be cacelled due to so many Corbyn supporters wanting to attend.
Not looking good for any challengers if he continues to dig his heels in.