Where's Malcolm (err) Tucker...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

I'd have the railways nationalised tomorrow. The Govt-run East Coast service was a perfect example of how well it could be run in public hands.

But that's not the issue here. The issue is having a Labour leader who doesn't land a haymaker on his own f**king chin every time he swings a punch.

[wilts rover]

Just to stir the tureen a little further, I notice that prospective defender of public rights, Mr Smith, when faced with the choice of believing a rail passenger (and a Labour Parry member at that) or the rail company in this dispute, he came down on the side of big business.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048

[albie]

Storm in a teacup, considering the other stuff going on in Syria and the like.

In response to the point about pre-booking, would there not be a security aspect to consider in advertising the service a polititian would use? Would you trust the uncompromised integrity of the Virgin online booking system?

It would give the media, and other hostile interests (such as Virgin) a heads up to plan various interventions to suit. Probably best avoided, as far as possible.

[idler]

If I bought four advance tickets would I have to provide the names if it was for four adults paying full price?

[Bentley Bullet]

I don't think I've ever entered a virgin but from what I've been told they provide as good an experience, if not better than anyone.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just to stir the tureen a little further, I notice that prospective defender of public rights, Mr Smith, when faced with the choice of believing a rail passenger (and a Labour Parry member at that) or the rail company in this dispute, he came down on the side of big business.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048

Wilts

I think that's called "evidence-based decision making."

You appear to be hinting that faith-based decision making would be preferable.

[MachoMadness]

Considering every report I've seen from the passengers on that train backs up Corbyn's version of events, I'd say it's making an evidence-based assumption that just ignores all the evidence you don't like. Which is quite amusing given that Corbyn supporters love doing that, apparently.

[Bentley Bullet]

Was it Corbyn supporters who were dressed as empty seats in the video then? That might explain it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Macho

How many reports from passengers have you read? And how many reports from passengers equal one clear photograph?

[Sprotyrover]

Well he was on Chanel 5 news at tea time and admitted that there were plenty of seats but not two for him to sit with his missus.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty.

So he did.

 https://youtu.be/YWwGkzTdUOQ

Although fascinatingly, when he was videoed sat outside the shitter, he was reading Private Eye rather than talking to his wife.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-walks-through-packed-carriage-during-11-august-train-trip-video

And then, in that video from today, he gets stroppy with journalists asking questions about traingate instead of ones about the NHS.

f**k me sideways! What about this does he not get? HE has made HIMSELF the story by stupid, stupid, stupid, ill-thought out childishness. He's in a job where it is HIS responsibility to get his political message across. He doesn't do that because he is utterly out of his depth. He's spent his career being in rooms where people agree with him and he seems genuinely bemused by why people would want to talk about a clusterf**k of a story about train seats instead of really important things.
God f**king help the Labour Party.

[Bentley Bullet]

Well he was on Chanel 5 news at tea time and admitted that there were plenty of seats but not two for him to sit with his missus.

Bonus, should have had to pay extra.

[wilts rover]

Just to stir the tureen a little further, I notice that prospective defender of public rights, Mr Smith, when faced with the choice of believing a rail passenger (and a Labour Parry member at that) or the rail company in this dispute, he came down on the side of big business.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37173048

Wilts

I think that's called "evidence-based decision making."

You appear to be hinting that faith-based decision making would be preferable.

Well there you go. An edited company video that doesn't show the area where Corbyn is sitting proves that Virgin trains are not overcrowded. Sorted for their franchise renewal next year then.

You appear to have missed what I am actually hinting at is that Smith is too close to big business. By not asking for independent evidence, the witness mentioned in the Guardian, the train manager who found the seats for Corbyn, the people who moved for him, anyone else on the train, anyone who uses that service line, then it's 'faith-based' that their 'facts' tell the whole story.

But if you and Owen are happy with that, fair enough.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

You can cut the conspiracy theorising. And the muddying of the water by changing the argument from the particular to the general. Corbyn himself has said that there WERE empty seats. That's all that the issue has ended up being about. Because, through quite exemplary incompetence, he has turned an issue which should be one of his very strongest cards into an utter clusterf**k.

Chuck the spade away. Move on.

[BillyStubbsTears]

For the Corbynistas in here.

Please, PLEASE read this:
https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/1177

It's long, but if you have any interest whatsoever in the issue, if you are genuinely interested in being challenged, rather than comforted in your opinions, read this. And then think about it. Think about it A LOT.

[Sammy Chung was King]

Corbyn for a man of his age seems immature. He is still acting as though he is a student protesting against everything. He is supposed to be labour leader and alternative to tory rule.
Ed miliband was much more electable than this guy. They have gone backwards and recruited somebody who has less chance of being the man in power, when the votes are counted up when election time is with us.

[Copps is Magic]

For the Corbynistas in here.

Please, PLEASE read this:
https://www.byline.com/column/11/article/1177

It's long, but if you have any interest whatsoever in the issue, if you are genuinely interested in being challenged, rather than comforted in your opinions, read this. And then think about it. Think about it A LOT.

Labour are probably shafted - at best, for a decade and, at worst, permanently. This is because they are currently the only truly UK-wide party. In order to ever win an election again, they would have to regain seats in Scotland from the SNP, from the Tories in the South of England, as well as defend seats against Plaid Cymru in Wales, UKIP in the North and the Liberal Democrats in urban areas.

Goes against what you said the other day when you threw your toys out. Bit silly that wasn't it.

If the PLP managed to overthrow Corbyn, the party would have a (admittedly, slim) chance at being both competent and united

So, ultimately best to stick with the most electable figure on the left of British politics then, eh?

Corbyn must be ousted at all costs. Everything else can be fixed later

If this is the rational, pro-intellectual, anti-fanaticism voice of reason speaking then, I'm sorry, I'll personally leave it. 'Everything can be fixed later' OK. Right.

You can't skirt round there being no-alternative. You end up looking silly, like writing a broadly well researched article with a conclusion that doesn't address the premise. This is very important stuff we are dealing with. You can't reject your best hope in return for nihilism.

I think the fella who wrote this article probably needs to get off twitter. You're not going to get any fair representation of the people Corbyn appeals to on there.

[Copps is Magic]

I would also add, those who have ever used phrases such as 'entryist', 'trotskyist scum', 'Isslington socialist, 'cardboard comrades', 'Corbynistas', 'loony left' , or indeed all of the above have equally got a duty to see beyond their prejudices and challenge themselves on their beliefs.

[bobjimwilly]

Never mind Jeremy Corbyn’s journey – what matters is that privatisation has been a train wreck

You have to think; why would Virgin, a private rail company, want to embarrass Corbyn? hmmm....

[Yargo]

Sproty.

So he did.

 https://youtu.be/YWwGkzTdUOQ

Although fascinatingly, when he was videoed sat outside the shitter, he was reading Private Eye rather than talking to his wife.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-walks-through-packed-carriage-during-11-august-train-trip-video

And then, in that video from today, he gets stroppy with journalists asking questions about traingate instead of ones about the NHS.

f**k me sideways!
God f**king help the Labour Party.

I wonder if "couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery" will be replaced with "couldn't find seats in a train with lots of them"  as the ultimate abuse of someone incapable of walking and chewing gum,a four year old would beat that clown at musical chairs!Mind you Smith,good grief with his second referendum idea,the greatest recruiting sergeant for UKIP

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

You want to be taken seriously. You want to not be the target is easy slurs. But then everything you say on this subject DOES have the air of a zealot and a believer, deaf to any other arguments.

The biggest example in your recent post is your use of the TINA argument (back to the 80s again, eh?) There is ALWAYS an alternative. It is the stance of the zealot to argue TINA (and yes, I know that Wilts has said there's no debate to be had, but he's an old leftie having a mid-life crisis).

Consider. If, 18 months ago, someone had claimed that an obscure backbencher would be chosen as leader of the Labour Party and the membership would treble. You'd have been laughed out of court.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BJW

No. You have to think, with such an obviously positive issue for him to work on, how could Team Corbyn f**k up the media management so badly?

THAT is the issue at the heart of this. Of course vested interests are going to argue from the other side. Which is why you e got to be professional in the way you deal with it. Chucking your hands up and saying "It's not fair. They're playing hard," is no f**king use.

[Copps is Magic]

The good thing about this forum is people can go back and read your 13 month tirade against Corbyn and similarly go back and read my posts on Smith and decide for themselves who the zealot is.

I've made my political views clear, you've made absolutely nothing clear other than you don't want Corbyn. Trivial or important, you take every opportunity to rip him a new arsehole. You don't discriminate the people you are arguing against - you are happy to argue with people who aren't even Corbyn supporters. It's all rhetorical in your head. You don't discriminate between matters which are trivial or important. You've convinced yourself this train affair has significance for the population at large.

In between all this, you've said you agree with many of Corbyn's policies and he has a sound economic plan. You join the ranks of Eagle and Smith who have made similar comments. The latter of which I really quite like in terms of his policy ideas and I hope he plays an important part in Labour's future. Yet YOU continue this unending vitriol with a seemingly oblivious lack of ability to engage anyone without first insulting them.

At first I probably thought it was worth putting in a defense of Corbyn but with you it's pointless. You completely train wreck over all of that. Deal with the dilemmas you've got to deal with.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Macho

I've just been on a train from Sheffield to Manchester. There were 6 vacant seats in my carriage. There were three people stood in the vestibule.

People, eh?

[The Red Baron]

Macho

I've just been on a train from Sheffield to Manchester. There were 6 vacant seats in my carriage. There were three people stood in the vestibule.

People, eh?

I wonder if choosing to stand up on a train (or sit in the vestibule) when seats are available will be known in future as "doing a Corbyn?"

[BillyStubbsTears]

Macho

Really. Honestly, in your heart of hearts, do you think Corbyn has handled this well? Really?

Because, when you look at the opinions of people who have actually worked with Corbyn and McDonnell, other than the select group of very close supporters (Core Group Plus, wasn't it?) very few of the have much praise for their professionalism.

Take Prof Simon Wren-Lewis as an example. A leading authority on macro-economics. A very strongly left-wing commentator. An ardent and consistent critic of Austerity. He was jubilant at Corbyn's election. He saw it as a breath of fresh air. He was invited by McDonnell to be an economic adviser. He resigned after the Brexit disaster and he's horrified by how unwilling to listen, sloppy and unprepared the Corbyn inner circle was.

Try today's missive from him.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.uk/2016/08/why-corbyns-brexit-campaign-matters.html?m=1

There are plenty more.

I just do not get this passionate cleaving to the Corbyn legend that is being displayed by so many people. Or maybe I do. They need someone to reinforce their views. Corbyn does that. He makes them feel vindicated. And as a result, they are prepared to totally ignore the mounting rap sheet of incompetence and self-inflicted wounds. And they will criticise anyone who points out these failings as a traitor to the cause.

It's a mistake of quite staggering proportions, being made by a few hundred thousand people who are determined to ignore what is manifestly obvious to the rest of the country.

 Traingate is a classic example of this. Corbyn makes an ill judged public announcement, trying some off the cuff smartness based on the experience of the actual train he was travelling on rather than sticking to the (very valid) general point. He gets called out. After a couple of days of media kerfuffle, he, tetchily admits that there WERE vacant seats on the train. He, tetchily complains at the media for focusing on the trivial instead of the substantive point. And STILL Corbyn believers insist that he's been right all along and it's the nasty big boys who are not playing fair.

[Sprotyrover]

Macho

I've just been on a train from Sheffield to Manchester. There were 6 vacant seats in my carriage. There were three people stood in the vestibule.

People, eh?

I wonder if choosing to stand up on a train (or sit in the vestibule) when seats are available will be known in future as "doing a Corbyn?"

I have been reading today's updates whilst having a good 'Corbyn'     

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty.

So he did.

 https://youtu.be/YWwGkzTdUOQ

Although fascinatingly, when he was videoed sat outside the shitter, he was reading Private Eye rather than talking to his wife.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-walks-through-packed-carriage-during-11-august-train-trip-video

And then, in that video from today, he gets stroppy with journalists asking questions about traingate instead of ones about the NHS.

f**k me sideways!
God f**king help the Labour Party.

I wonder if "couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery" will be replaced with "couldn't find seats in a train with lots of them"  as the ultimate abuse of someone incapable of walking and chewing gum,a four year old would beat that clown at musical chairs!Mind you Smith,good grief with his second referendum idea,the greatest recruiting sergeant for UKIP

💩 And Smith both remind me of the centre fold of a well known gentlemans periodical from the late 70's 😝
And they could both do with a dammed good 'Air rushing' 😂

[Sprotyrover]

Cops is magic...You need to spend some time in a real socialist 'Paradise' North Korea springs to mind!👍🏻

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm on the train back from Manchester to Sheffield right now. I've counted 17 free seats in this carriage and there's still someone standing in the vestibule.

What do you make of that? I reckon there's a case for Martial Law to be imposed.