Where's Malcolm (err) Tucker...

[Yargo]

Hark at the numpties hitting an easy target,badly needed a Labour leader that can knock the shit out of Jimmy Krankies second referendum,or is that a third idea ,any clues who?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Hark at the numpties hitting an easy target,badly needed a Labour leader that can knock the shit out of Jimmy Krankies second referendum,or is that a third idea ,any clues who?

We badly needed a Labour leader that could knock the shit out of Boris and Nigel at the last referendum but we didn't bloody get one.

[BobG]

That's very true Sad. Sadly. I cannot remember a time, in over 50 years now, where the Labour Party has contained so few competant people. Right now it has neither politicians nor speech makers nor rabble rousers nor visionaries - other than the one who is rapidly destroying the party. It doesn't even have any thugs left either - other than those engaged with the Destructive Tendancy.

Cheers

BobG

[Glyn_Wigley]

Hark at the numpties hitting an easy target,badly needed a Labour leader that can knock the shit out of Jimmy Krankies second referendum,or is that a third idea ,any clues who?

We badly needed a Labour leader that could knock the shit out of Boris and Nigel at the last referendum but we didn't bloody get one.

Who would you suggest? I can't think of a single Labour MP that'd land a single blow on either Boris or Farage, never mind "knock the shit out of em".

I'd have settled for one that at least tried.

[Copps is Magic]

I'm starting to have a sort of shamefaced secret hope that Labour ends up with about 80 MP's after the next election. And that is making me angry and sad and ashamed.

Strange, bst is usually very quick to point out the implications of this type of thinking but he appears to have passed up this particular opportunity.

[Bentley Bullet]

Good job he's keeping it a secret, there'd be hell on if he revealed those thoughts to anyone.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm starting to have a sort of shamefaced secret hope that Labour ends up with about 80 MP's after the next election. And that is making me angry and sad and ashamed.

Strange, bst is usually very quick to point out the implications of this type of thinking but he appears to have passed up this particular opportunity.

The way things are going, it wouldn't surprise me if there's only 80 Labour MPs before the next election.

[Copps is Magic]

That's one possibility. Not one I think will happen personally. It's one thing predicting that and one thing wishing that will happen I'm sure you'd agree?

What troubles me also Glynn is how a man supposedly overseeing the slow decline and inevitably death of the Labour party into political obscurity is also a major threat to world (well, three continents of it at least) peace? 

[BillyStubbsTears]

And so it goes on Copps.

Still not a single sensible, substantive comment from you to explain your support for Corbyn. Still no engagement with any of the core issues raised in these threads. Just joining in with this bizarre meme that there's some clique here that has a love in and never disagrees.

 I thought you were a bit cleverer than that, what with your ability to quote Gramsci and all that, but I might have been overestimating you.

Whatever turns you on I suppose.

Since you raise it, I never noticed Bob's post before now. I disagree with it almost entirely. I want Labour to get 350 seats at the next election. I'll be out campaigning for that, just like I was in 2010 and 2015 and 1983 and 1987 and 1992, when you, presumably, had better things to do.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What troubles me also Glynn is how a man supposedly overseeing the slow decline and inevitably death of the Labour party into political obscurity is also a major threat to world (well, three continents of it at least) peace? 

How come it troubles you when I've not said anything of the sort?

[Copps is Magic]

Bst,

It became pretty clear a few weeks ago that I'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change my mind. I'm not really interested in getting in a discussion that will descend to the lowest common denominator. When I read silly stuff about his musical tastes and idiosyncrasies like the destruction of the planet without the ability to gain any power I feel compelled to get involved.

You don't do the discussions so far justice. 'Real issues' have been discussed.

I think we should increase the disability benefit budget, massive increase in public house building - probably council built and available for purchase (and I know who popularised that idea), I support strongly an overhaul of the private rental sector, I generally want a non-interventionist international policy which includes a critical assessment of the role of NATO in escalating tensions with Russia, I support the implementation of a minister for mental health and believe that office should have real and independent power. We've talked about all this stuff.

In addition, I think we should borrow more money to build infrastructure and create publicly funded jobs in the private sector. But I would do this with a very strong geographical focus. I would actually cut business taxes temporarily. 50p income tax rate seems to be generally accepted by all on the left. I would look to be progressive in other areas. I disagree with Owen Smith and Caroline Lucas calling for a second EU referendum. I take my queues from Yanis Varoufakis on this - 'once you're in, you don't leave. Once you're out, you don't join'. We're out. That's what the British public decided in a ridiculous vote but that's what they decided. The narrative should now shift to how we get the best leave deal for Britain. I would underwrite all EU funding for scientific/academic endeavors planned in the UK. I want a far more rapid policy of diversifying our energy supply.

I could go on but will save you an even longer list. Corbyn is strong in many of these areas IMO and speaks to people, I don't know fully how, but he does. Ultimately, there is a certain dogmatic element to supporting Corbyn, YES, because the coup and the way in which elements of the labour party have used every trick to deny a democratic decision is frankly a bit disgusting. I think Corbyn has a mandate to lead the labour party into the next general election and is currently the best chance the left has got.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

Your post makes my point for me.

The benefits and housing issues and public spending in general are (so far as I can see from Corbyn's statements) little different to Balls and Miliband. McDonnell came in with the policy that he would balance the current books and borrow for capital expenditure. Balls had said exactly the same. But McDonnell is lauded as a class hero and Balls as a Blatcherite traitor. 

That's my point. That's my entire bloody point!

The axioms on which the stances of the Corbyn supporters are founding their decisions are flawed. It is accepted as an article of faith, to be unquestioned, that the previous incarnation of Labour was a betrayal of its class across the board. And THAT is why there is no discussion going on.

It scares me that the party has become a post-truth cult. The traingate issue is the perfect example. Corbyn himself (finally) admitted that there were empty seats, but STILL his supporters are waging their social media wars insisting that the train was the East Coast version of the Black Hole of Calcutta.

On the other issues: mental health prioritisation is a Lib Dem initiative that has (rightly) gained support across the spectrum.

NATO is a more substantive issue. I didn't see you say in any previous discussions where you stand, and to be honest, your current comment is a bit woolly. The really big one is Article V. Corbyn entirely avoided that issue last month you making fatuous comments about not wanting to get into that situation (as if anyone else does!) The big question is, how, from here and now, do you avoid getting into that situation?

What do you think we should do?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Copps

By the way, your use of the word "coup" also makes my point. I'm sure, from your educational background, you appreciate the subtle power of language.

Describe the actions of 80% of the PLP as a "coup" (especially if coupled with the adjective "Blairite") and you've effectively closed down substantive debate. You've invalidated genuine concerns and criticisms about the Corbyn leadership. You've managed to turn the spotlight from his management, onto the nefarious aims of the other, treacherous, bas**rds.

Great politics. f**king useless if you are trying to have an intelligent debate to get to the truth.

[Sprotyrover]

Does the little tinker still promiseto reopen the Pits every time he hit Donny?then when he is back in green territory renage  on what he said to please the 'AirHeads'.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I'm wondering when 'Mr Consistency' is going to re-introduce elections for the Shadow Cabinet...the abolition of which he vehemently opposed as being anti-democratic!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well, it looks like there's a plan for how Corbyn will re-unite the PLP after he's won. One of his senior colleagues is quoted in the New Statesman as saying, “If we show competence, that will bring some people back onside".
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/09/heal-and-settle-how-team-corbyn-hope-put-party-back-together-again


f**king genius!

Actually, and seriously, it's just possible that the penny has dropped. What snapped my patience with Corbyn was his ludicrously impotent, incompetent and self-indulgent showing in the EU Referendum campaign. 7 of of 10-ing and navel-gazing on some obscure progressive American website 36 hours before the polls opened, musing on the "strong and principled left-wing argument for leaving." The most important vote in our lifetimes and he was treating it like an Islington debating society instead of getting out there and giving a f**king LEAD!

If the events of this summer make Corbyn realise that leadership of the party carries certain performance expectations and comes with certain requirements (which he has abjectly failed to live up to in the first 12 months) then maybe that's the least-bad outcome.

[Sprotyrover]

So reading that they have so far been wholly incompetent! Geez how thick can they really be😆

[albie]

Blaming Corbyn for Brexit, and the poor campaign by Remain, seems to me to miss the point, which is that it is what is reported that drives the narrative.

Here is a succinct review of the performance of the BBC;
How the BBC's obsession with balance took Labour off air ahead of Brexit

It does cause me to think what has passed under the bridge unnoticed while the feeding frenzy over unimportant trivia like "Traingate" consume the column inches.

A starter for 10 might be the proposed abolition of the Human Rights Acts, to be replaced by a British Bill of Rights drafted by public interest stalwart Michael Gove.

Another for the Labour family might be the exclusion of members from voting in the leadership elections, on dubious grounds of having said someting on social media that the NEC finds out of order.

All pointing one way, IMHO. Just saying, like!

[Glyn_Wigley]

And at the same time there's Boris, who a couple of months ago was lying about pushing for £350m of the money supposedly being spent on the EU being spent on the NHS instead, now hypocritically enjoying himself as Foreign Secretary in a Government who is wanting to CUT the existing NHS budget!

Labour should be smacking him round the chops with this at every opportunity, whatever the issue at hand is, and what are we getting from the Labour leadership about this? I can't say that I've heard a peep out of them about it despite it being handed to them on a platter.

[wilts rover]

Yes agreed Glyn, you would expect someone like Owen Smith with his background in PR in the Pharmaceutical Industry tto be right on top of it, doesn't look good for a prospective leader does it?

However Corbyn appears to have been busy, nearly sent the internet down with a speech on the NHS yesterday (it says on the link below) which you must have missed:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/24/jeremy-corbyn-nhs-tory-dismantling-conservatives-health-service
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/aug/23/jeremy-corbyn-promise-renationalise-nhs-labour-private-end
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37167256
http://www.thecanary.co/2016/09/05/jeremy-corbyn-lays-out-his-plan-for-the-nhs-in-under-a-minute/

Also relevant to your point I notice that Boris is now part of a Government that has rejected a Points Based immigration system - whilst looking forward to welcoming more Polish immigration into the UK. Funny old world.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37271420
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/sep/03/poland-urges-uk-to-keep-its-citizens-safe-from-xenophobia

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie

Complaining about the media is an indulgence that the Left frequently gives in to.

It's pointless. Unless you plan to nationalise the media and impose some sort of requirement for impartiality, then you have to deal with the media that you have.

Complaining, as that article does that:

Labour members canvassing in the streets and housing estates, waited in vain for the BBC – the country’s most trusted news source – to provide any serious analysis that could back up the Labour message on the doorstep

is utterly ridiculous. Part of the art of political leadership is to FORGE the media narrative. Set the agenda. Make it so that you cannot be ignored.

Mumbling, "7 out of 10" about the EU does not set the agenda.

Doing THIS on an obscuring American webcast in the week of the vote does not set the UK media agenda.
 http://m.democracynow.org/stories/16321

Spending an evening, 36 hours before the vote, "going to the mosque in my constituency to join in the iftar supper," does not set the UK media agenda.

It is a self-indulgent dereliction of duty.

This is one of my biggest criticisms of Corbyn. He is NOT a leader. A leader doesn't give into self-indulgent navel gazing of this sort at a historic moment like that.

Or if the leader DOES behave like that, you have no right to criticise the media. Because you've given them nothing to report.

I was out canvassing in the week of the vote. My problem wasn't that the BBC hadn't given me a bone to chew. It was the fact that I could not put my hand on my heart and say what the Labour party's position was. And that is utterly, utterly unforgivable in politics.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

I really used to respect your analysis. But when you post a quote from The Canary to support your argument, you've just slipped a long way down the ladder.

[wilts rover]

Glyn wanted to know why the Labour leadership hadn't been in the media talking about the NHS recently. I posted recent links. If I am only allowed to publish links from websites you rather than Google recommend then can you provide a list for me?

[Glyn_Wigley]

Glyn wanted to know why the Labour leadership hadn't been in the media talking about the NHS recently.

I said nothing of the sort, and didn't ask anything like that. Perhaps you didn't read what I put properly?

What I wrote about - and am wanting to know - is why Labour hasn't been sticking the knife into Boris for being hypocritical. I thought the Corbynistas would have been all over that that, seeing as they're so against 'careerists'!

[BillyStubbsTears]

No. Post what you want. I'm just surprised at you repeating an idle and vacuous and unsupported claim from a partisan writer. And even more surprised that you repeat it in a discussion where we're talking about Corbyn's ability to forge the agenda.

If that speech really did have them flocking to YouTube in their millions, then grand. But just because Ms Mendoza says its grabbed the agenda doesn't settle the argument does it?

And that brings us round to the other side of my despair at the cult of Corbyn. The more he says thinks that the Corbynistas adore, the more he is adored by them and the more they convince themselves that everyone else must agree with them.

[BobG]

Group think in the political world raises its ugly head once again. That's the 3rd time I can remember. Two Labour. 1 Tory. And, unsurprisingly given the nature of groupthink, none of them turned out well.

Bob

[Copps is Magic]

Albie

Complaining about the media is an indulgence that the Left frequently gives in to.

Indulgence? It's now a widely held sentiment.

It's pointless. Unless you plan to nationalise the media and impose some sort of requirement for impartiality, then you have to deal with the media that you have.

Really? Is that the only option? I think the opposite will probably happen (is happening), as in, a slow decentralisation of media to small, transparently funded, online news producers.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts

I really used to respect your analysis. But when you post a quote from The Canary to support your argument, you've just slipped a long way down the ladder.

However will he sleep at night?

If you had a mate, the two of you could do a passable impression of Waldorf and Stadtler.

Oh aye. And if you were funny.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Albie

Complaining about the media is an indulgence that the Left frequently gives in to.

Indulgence? It's now a widely held sentiment.

It's pointless. Unless you plan to nationalise the media and impose some sort of requirement for impartiality, then you have to deal with the media that you have.

Really? Is that the only option? I think the opposite will probably happen (is happening), as in, a slow decentralisation of media to small, transparently funded, online news producers.

Hang on! It's coming back to me!

Oh aye! Got it! 1980s re-visited again.

00:57.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pLnSFv2VaYg

[Copps is Magic]

Trust thee to bring up an 80s TV show to make a point.