The use of Nerve Agent in the UK

[Sprotyrover]

Here's another one, East of Dresden in Germany is a region called Lusatia, Cottbus is in Lusatia. The region is the Homeland of the SORBS. The sorbs were part of the Serb nation which migrated from the region above China approx 650ad with the Bulgars and Avjars,they settled in Lusatia and their Brothers further South in the Balkans. They where called the WENDS by the Germans.
They have always been loyal to their German Kings good men loyal and true.
In 1876 Serbian found itself in the impossible position of having to declare war on the Ottoman Empire, due to atrocities being committed by Orthodox Christians in Bosnia and Hercegovina and in Bulgaria.
Many thousands of SORBS joined their Army which was backed by Russia and Prusia. Their best General in 1914 was a SORB who had stayed after 1876 he was known as STURM.
My point being that Eastern Europe is a complicated place when it comes to Population distribution,I could cite examples all night long!
It's a mess and there is no easy solution to any of it.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Idler

I doubt they did it as an excuse. But certainly there was significant migration of Russians to the Baltic states during Soviet times, along with promotion of the Russian language and culture over the Estonian and Latvian ones (there are many fewer Russians in Lithuania). So now you have a very significant minority in each country whose first allegiance is towards Russia. That COULD be used as a pretext for action by Putin. Which is actually too scary to think about.

[Sprotyrover]

Idler

I doubt they did it as an excuse. But certainly there was significant migration of Russians to the Baltic states during Soviet times, along with promotion of the Russian language and culture over the Estonian and Latvian ones (there are many fewer Russians in Lithuania). So now you have a very significant minority in each country whose first allegiance is towards Russia. That COULD be used as a pretext for action by Putin. Which is actually too scary to think about.

Actually the region you are discussing was mainly populated by Germans and for many centuries from about 1250 ad was known as East Prussia.
The indigenous population was forced out in 1944/5 some 2.5 million, the rest approx 500,00 were deported to Siberia the soviets created the Kalingrad Oblast and gave the Memel region to Lithuania.

Another region why Russians don't like NATO troops in the region. Should a right wing Government get back into power in Germany you will be hearing a great deal about that region in the news!

Kalingrad proper name is Konigsberg!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty

You’re talking about Kaliningrad. I’m talking about Estonia and Latvia.

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty

You’re talking about Kaliningrad. I’m talking about Estonia and Latvia.

My apologies I don't think those 2 countries Estonia and Latvia have a large Ethnic Russian population to be honest

[Sprotyrover]

Estonia has suffered from a decline in the birth rate since 1945 .the Russian ,Ukrainian and Belorussian element has decreased from 30% to 25%. Since 1989.

The situation in Latvia is similar, decline in the Russian element is due to the closing of military bases after 1989.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Sproty.

As you say, ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia make up about 25% of the population.

That compares to about 17% in Ukraine.

There are a number of regions close to the borders with Russia where ethnic Russians are concentrated at 70-100% of the population.

Just like in Ukraine.

In Ukraine the argument was that ethnic Russians were being treated like second class citizens and oppressed. So they spontaneously took up arms against the Ukranian Govt with moral support from Russia. Of course that is bullshit. Russia provided guns, tanks and missiles to the uprising and its well documented that the Russian army has been actively involved in the fighting.

Now, imagine that happening in Estonia. A “spontaneous uprising of ethnic Russian who rebel against being oppressed by the Estonian majority.”

Russia says, “We morally support you but of course we can’t get actively involved in fighting against a NATO State.”

But in reality, Spetznaz are fighting alongside the uprising.

In other words, precisely like Ukraine but with a NATO country on the receiving end.

Not a pleasant scenario. Either Article V gets invoked or NATO is a busted flush. Neither of those are worlds that I want my kids to live in. Which is why it’s essential that Purim knows the red line beforehand. 

[Sprotyrover]

Sproty.

As you say, ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia make up about 25% of the population.

That compares to about 17% in Ukraine.

There are a number of regions close to the borders with Russia where ethnic Russians are concentrated at 70-100% of the population.

Just like in Ukraine.

In Ukraine the argument was that ethnic Russians were being treated like second class citizens and oppressed. So they spontaneously took up arms against the Ukranian Govt with moral support from Russia. Of course that is bullshit. Russia provided guns, tanks and missiles to the uprising and its well documented that the Russian army has been actively involved in the fighting.

Now, imagine that happening in Estonia. A “spontaneous uprising of ethnic Russian who rebel against being oppressed by the Estonian majority.”

Russia says, “We morally support you but of course we can’t get actively involved in fighting against a NATO State.”

But in reality, Spetznaz are fighting alongside the uprising.

In other words, precisely like Ukraine but with a NATO country on the receiving end.

Not a pleasant scenario. Either Article V gets invoked or NATO is a busted flush. Neither of those are worlds that I want my kids to live in. Which is why it’s essential that Purim knows the red line beforehand. 

Billy these countries are tiny in comparison to the Ukraine. You also have to know a bit about the History of Russia to understand why they will never give up the Crimea an also lend support to a vast Russian population in Eastern Ukraine.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Just like the Sudetenland, eh?

[hoolahoop]

Sproty.

As you say, ethnic Russians in Estonia and Latvia make up about 25% of the population.

That compares to about 17% in Ukraine.

There are a number of regions close to the borders with Russia where ethnic Russians are concentrated at 70-100% of the population.

Just like in Ukraine.

In Ukraine the argument was that ethnic Russians were being treated like second class citizens and oppressed. So they spontaneously took up arms against the Ukranian Govt with moral support from Russia. Of course that is bullshit. Russia provided guns, tanks and missiles to the uprising and its well documented that the Russian army has been actively involved in the fighting.

Now, imagine that happening in Estonia. A “spontaneous uprising of ethnic Russian who rebel against being oppressed by the Estonian majority.”

Russia says, “We morally support you but of course we can’t get actively involved in fighting against a NATO State.”

But in reality, Spetznaz are fighting alongside the uprising.

In other words, precisely like Ukraine but with a NATO country on the receiving end.

Not a pleasant scenario. Either Article V gets invoked or NATO is a busted flush. Neither of those are worlds that I want my kids to live in. Which is why it’s essential that Purim knows the red line beforehand. 

Billy these countries are tiny in comparison to the Ukraine. You also have to know a bit about the History of Russia to understand why they will never give up the Crimea an also lend support to a vast Russian population in Eastern Ukraine.

Yeh the famous NovoRossiya, Russia would claim all Slavs. Strangely enough there are reportedly more Turks outside of Turkey than in it  (not incl. those in Syria of course )
Then of course historically we want all English speaking nations back just like Putin .......we can all play that expansionist shite.

[Sprotyrover]

Just like the Sudetenland, eh?
[/quote
Where is there any comparison?

[hoolahoop]

Just like the Sudetenland, eh?
[/quote
Where is there any comparison?

German speaking people in Southern and Western Czechoslavakia a damn good reason for Hitler to expand claiming that they needed help . Whether they did or not was never a reason for Hitler to stop his expansion pulling in all Germanic peoples under him , the same applied to Austria who were more than willing after losing the Hapsburg Empire. I'm not sure that the Czechs were treated bacly though by the authorities .
We have a large population in Australia that would identify with this country , however that doesn't give us an excuse to take it over.

[Sprotyrover]

A difficult comparison is the Sudetenland, the Germans did not loose the Great War they entered into an Armistice and in their eyes got shafted in 1919, losing a lot of their former territory to Poland and Czechoslovakia.
The German Army was never beaten never surrendered. They went away Bitter and started studying their former enemies tactics.
The Russians on the other hand won the Second World War and suffered great loss, the territory's they had conquered /liberated became the Warsaw Pact, when Gorbachov gave up the former Warsaw Pact territory it was agreed that NATO would not station troops in any former Warsaw Pact territory. Hence the bitterness.
Russia isn't interested in occupying 3 tiny Baltic states it has an ice free port in Kalingrad.
The Ukraine is a country created by Russia, it only exists as a country because of Russia, the Crimea was conquered by the Russians who militarised it hundreds of years ago.
Bit like Norther Ireland really.... here you go!

[hoolahoop]

A difficult comparison is the Sudetenland, the Germans did not loose the Great War they entered into an Armistice and in their eyes got shafted in 1919, losing a lot of their former territory to Poland and Czechoslovakia.
The German Army was never beaten never surrendered. They went away Bitter and started studying their former enemies tactics.
The Russians on the other hand won the Second World War and suffered great loss, the territory's they had conquered /liberated became the Warsaw Pact, when Gorbachov gave up the former Warsaw Pact territory it was agreed that NATO would not station troops in any former Warsaw Pact territory. Hence the bitterness.
Russia isn't interested in occupying 3 tiny Baltic states it has an ice free port in Kalingrad.
The Ukraine is a country created by Russia, it only exists as a country because of Russia, the Crimea was conquered by the Russians who militarised it hundreds of years ago.
Bit like Norther Ireland really.... here you go!

Yes I'm aware of all that as interesting as it might be  but how would you explain the breaking of the tri--lateral agreement making  Crimea sovereign Ukrainian territory by all those little green men . Putin is a liar, a landgrabber and makes no bones about wanting to expand . He forments trouble wherever he can  and will use any means possible to achieve this whilst interfering in other countries elections , Referenda etc.   

I'm not sure how you draw comparison between the Crimea and Northern Ireland exactly ?

[Glyn_Wigley]

The Ukraine is a country created by Russia, it only exists as a country because of Russia, the Crimea was conquered by the Russians who militarised it hundreds of years ago.

So because you conquer and militarise somewhere, it means you've created the country? Nothing to do with the culture and ethnicity of the native population at all??

Ukraine has also been conquered by Lithuania, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Nazi Germany. Why are you giving Russia all the credit? Ukraine gained its current independence when it seceded from the USSR, not Russia.

[Sprotyrover]

The Ukraine is a country created by Russia, it only exists as a country because of Russia, the Crimea was conquered by the Russians who militarised it hundreds of years ago.

So because you conquer and militarise somewhere, it means you've created the country? Nothing to do with the culture and ethnicity of the native population at all??

Ukraine has also been conquered by Lithuania, Poland, Austria-Hungary, the Ottoman Empire and Nazi Germany. Why are you giving Russia all the credit? Ukraine gained its current independence when it seceded from the USSR, not Russia.

Because the Russians drove out the Ottomans, Poles and Crimea Tartars.

[Glyn_Wigley]

And then the Ukraines got rid of the Russians. So?

[Sprotyrover]

When did they do that?

[idler]

The people of an area of land are the rightful occupiers, whoever they are conquered by.
Should they at any time have the means to change their circumstances by overthrowing the invaders they are surely in the right.
People have a bad habit of confusing Russia with the USSR.
A bit like comparing Britain with the British Empire.

[ravenrover]

Is this the 1st sign that they have had enough of softly softly, "you are playing with fire" is the next retort to come from our Eastern friends  Does this means the gloves are being readied for taking off after the laughing and joking from them has finished?

[Sprotyrover]

The people of an area of land are the rightful occupiers, whoever they are conquered by.
Should they at any time have the means to change their circumstances by overthrowing the invaders they are surely in the right.
People have a bad habit of confusing Russia with the USSR.
A bit like comparing Britain with the British Empire.

So the Russians have been the indigenous population of the Crimea since the 1700’s so that’s settled that argument then!

[Filo]

As time goes on, I have to say the UK's position is looking increasingly dodgy, three people have survived an attack with the most deadly nerve agent known, and there is no antidote for that agent. Either our government are telling lies, or they are just shit playing the propoganda war

[GazLaz]

As time goes on, I have to say the UK's position is looking increasingly dodgy, three people have survived an attack with the most deadly nerve agent known, and there is no antidote for that agent. Either our government are telling lies, or they are just shit playing the propoganda war

As soon as it happened I tweeted that the UK had to be favourites to be behind it. The way the government have handled it makes it all look even more dodgy as you say.

[Nudga]

And the BBC propaganda machine was in full flow with back to back programmes, the first one about the rise of putin and then the other about the Porton down facility

[wilts rover]

It's good to hear that both Skirpals' are improving from the effects of the military grade nerve agent and hopefully they will go one to make a full recovery.

It was a shame though to hear yesterday that the first casualties had been recorded with their two guinea pigs and pedigree cat having perished through neglect and dehydration as no-one realised they were in the house.

A particular shame as it was reported three weeks ago that the local vet had notified the police they were in there the day the poisoning reached the media and they were reported to have been rescued and taken to Porton Down for tests, hmmm?

[albie]

Johnson and Co have persuaded the International community to support them so far.  If it turns out that they have been telling porkies, some of our colleagues are not going to be best pleased.

The Russians are having a field day on the information war frontline. Unless we can properly back up the claims made, Putin is set to clean up in the domestic public opinion.

We need to give the propaganda a proper gander.
Our own, as well as that of others.

[hoolahoop]

It's good to hear that both Skirpals' are improving from the effects of the military grade nerve agent and hopefully they will go one to make a full recovery.

It was a shame though to hear yesterday that the first casualties had been recorded with their two guinea pigs and pedigree cat having perished through neglect and dehydration as no-one realised they were in the house.

A particular shame as it was reported three weeks ago that the local vet had notified the police they were in there the day the poisoning reached the media and they were reported to have been rescued and taken to Porton Down for tests, hmmm?

I'm not quite sure what to make of that are you ?

[wilts rover]

I'm not quite sure what to make of that are you ?

I have filed it away with the contradictions that May gave in her speech when she said 130 people had been treated for the effects of the poisoning, around about the same time the consultant doctor wrote to the Times to say that only 3 people were under treatment and no other member of the public they had seen had any symptoms whatsoever.

What's the truth in this case, I don't know? But the more I read about it the less I believe we are being told it.

[hoolahoop]

It is strange, it's difficult to see what's going on here now I do believe that Russia is ultimately to blame but I agree the inconsistencies are adding up - on the Russian side as well
Time that Boris Johnson and Gavin Williamson were both shown the door as well as Treeza but I think that may be coming soon enough.

Like you , I'm just filing away these inconsistencies - the story will unfold shortly I'm sure when the OPCW  get to make out their reports . Gut feeling is that this was a bungled job.

Communication is not a strong point of this present government. They hide from scrutiny i.e. this case and the trade talks being negotiated with the USA and then they brief against each other or make things up ( Bojo and Gove 2015 - on going. )

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well here’s a use of nerve agent on civilians by a regime backed by Moscow.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-43686157

You keep on navel-gazing and agonising over what to believe Wilts. You’re lucky that you have the good fortune to indulge your conscience. The people in Douma didn’t.

And by the way, once again not a word of condemnation on this from the Seamus Milne-led Labour Press Office.