Torture

[albie]

Surprised no-one has mentioned this story, so I will;
https://theconversation.com/the-stain-of-britains-part-in-torture-and-rendition-will-never-wash-away-99116

While the Brexit fiasco carries on like a driverless car with a software malfunction, this national shame has made a splash for a day in the news media.

Trouble is, the splash continues for those directly affected.

Is this the new normal?
What are we coming to if the people responsible cannot be held to account!

[Ldr]

If even one British life was saved due to this I have no problem

[roversdude]

Agreed

[German Rover]

If even one British life was saved due to this I have no problem

I do. We don't do things like this because we are better than that.leave that sort of thing to barbarians like the Taliban.

[BillyStubbsTears]

German

High five to you.

If we go down that route, what the f**k is it that we are defending?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr
What if one British life is saved and a thousand are lost in the future because of the anger that drives the next generation of Jihadis?

[Glyn_Wigley]

If even one British life was saved due to this I have no problem

And if it was completely worthless?

[selby]

  It is easy to talk and have morals when you are on the outside looking in.
   When you are in a position of threat to your and your mates lives, how you react, and change, nobody can answer that until it happens.

[Bentley Bullet]

I thought the whole reason for it was to prevent the next generation of Jihadis. I don't like the idea of interrogation, but if it's deemed necessary it is probably more effective than Jeremy Kyle's lie detector.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Torture was supposed to prevent the next generation of Jihadis?

Have a think. Imagine that you’re 12 or 15. Iranian forces are fighting a war in the U.K.  Your dad is part of the resistance. He gets caught, flown to Afghanistan and beaten, waterboarded and subjected to mock executions.

When you heard about it, do you reckon you would just shrug your shoulders, or be straight on the Internet finding out how to make IEDs?

[Bentley Bullet]

I'd want revenge for my dad, Just as the sons of Iranians who'd been blown up by terrorists in their homeland would equally want revenge. Just as those sons of Iranians who'd seen pictures of their dad about to have his head cut off would want revenge. After all, That's the whole reason why they're fighting a war in my country.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Right.

You answered my question before expanding the point.

You’d want revenge. That’s a very basic and entirely understandable reaction. We’d all feel that.

Of course, when both sides feel a sense of justified revenge, you kind of hope that both sides don’t ac on that. Because then you’re into a vicious circle of endless war. And WE don’t want that. Because we claim to be civilised and peaceloving. And we are historically a Christian country and Jesus taught people to turn the other cheek.

The extremist Jihadis by contrast DO want permanent war. They see it as essential to weaken the West. So, the son of a tortured father, who wants revenge, is an easy recruit to the next generation of Jihadis. It’s a perfect fit.

So we’re idiotic to feed that by condoning or conducting torture. Unless you’re like Donald Trump of course, who said that he’d still use torture on terrorists even if it does work in terms of getting information out of them.

[Bentley Bullet]

So what do we do then? Let them go without interrogation and give them some sweeties to take back to their kids?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Who said anything about not interrogating?

[Bentley Bullet]

So what do we do then? Tell them we're going to interrogate them, but not to worry because we won't hurt them?

.....And THEN send them away with some sweeties for the kids?

[Bentley Bullet]

...... And even if we did that, do you honestly think they'd tell the kids where they got the sweeties from?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Who said anything about not interrogating?

[Bentley Bullet]

So you're all for interrogating then, as long as we don't hurt them?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB. I’m all for interrogation within the limits of INternational Law. It’s not hard to understand is it?

[Glyn_Wigley]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effectiveness_of_torture_for_interrogation

https://www.psychologytoday.com/gb/blog/slightly-blighty/201701/does-torture-work

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/we-rsquo-ve-known-for-400-years-that-torture-doesn-rsquo-t-work/

[Bentley Bullet]

BB. I’m all for interrogation within the limits of INternational Law. It’s not hard to understand is it?

So am I, but do you think an interrogated Jihadist would tell the truth when he was released? Would he tell his kids we were very reasonable?

[Glyn_Wigley]

BB. I’m all for interrogation within the limits of INternational Law. It’s not hard to understand is it?

So am I, but do you think an interrogated Jihadist would tell the truth when he was released? Would he tell his kids we were very reasonable?

As a reason for torturing someone, that's feeble even by your standards.

[Bentley Bullet]

Well, that's the end of that conversation. Mr Wiggerly with his b*llocks yet again.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Go on then, tell us all what the best method of getting true, useful information from a prisoner is. I'm sure we're all agog.

[MachoMadness]

BB, you're making the mistake of assuming that everyone we interrogate is a Jihadist.

[Bentley Bullet]

MachoManess, no I wasn't. I was continuing the conversation with BST, who used Jihadist as an example.

[MachoMadness]

MachoManess, no I wasn't. I was continuing the conversation with BST, who used Jihadist as an example.

In the context of "torturing people convinces them and others to become jihadists", sure he did.

[Bentley Bullet]

I don't know what you're on about. I was referring to post 5.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I don't know what you're on about. I was referring to post 5.

But if we torture you, we're bound to get the right answer.

[MachoMadness]

I don't know what you're on about. I was referring to post 5.

I was too. Paraphrasing, but I suspect you knew that.

Two options: The person you're torturing is a terrorist, in which case any intel they do offer is suspect, and they get to be a martyr for other terrorists to rally behind.
OR
The person you're torturing isn't a terrorist, but they bloody well will want to be by the time you're done. And so will their family. And all their friends.

That's why interrogation has to be handled the right way. Otherwise the jihadists win either way.