Proportional Representation (now morphed into B****t 2 or is it 3)

[IDM]

Ldr, the idea is that a furrher vote for the public would have to include a clear leave option, with a plan agreed by parliament and acceptable to the EU - therefore you know what’s on the table for an informed choice..

So if leave then wins, we know what would happen afterwards.


More than two and a half years after the  referendum and we STILL don’t know what leaving actually means.!

How the hell is that “democratic”.??

[drfchound]

Ok devil's advocate  time again. We have a 2nd referendum, leave win again (and poll trackers suggest they would) what then? More years of whining? Campaign for a 3rd referendum? Where does it stop? If Labour win the next GE do we have a further vote before they can implement their control just in case we have changed our minds in the interim?

Ldr,  I have been asking about the question in for first paragraph for a while, no one comes up with a straight answer.
BST tells me that a second referendum would not be simply Leave or Remain but that is all I get back.

The most vociferous opponents to Ref2 are the hard line Leavers who are concerned that it could turn out a Remain result, possibly due to them knowing that many Leave voters have changed their mind and would vote to Remain.
If the hard liners are so confident that Leave would win again, why not agree to a Ref2.

[Campsall rover]

I thought the topic was about Proportional Representation.
There is another one called Brexit!!!
So back to PR.
I think in theory it is a good idea but it is very dangerous because it could give minority parties & groups like the National Front seats in parliament.
Germany in the 1930’s. We don’t need that thankyou very much.
So while our present system may not seem the most fair one it is a system that protects us from the extreme right & left of politics.

[Donnywolf]

Cheers CR - I was just going to try to steer us back to PR ! That B****t sh*t is pervasive for sure

[drfchound]

I thought the topic was about Proportional Representation.
There is another one called Brexit!!!
So back to PR.
I think in theory it is a good idea but it is very dangerous because it could give minority parties & groups like the National Front seats in parliament.
Germany in the 1930’s. We don’t need that thankyou very much.
So while our present system may not seem the most fair one it is a system that protects us from the extreme right & left of politics.

It is a bit like when a thread about say, Marquis, becomes one about Alfie May.
Almost every thread deviates.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hound.

I have said time and time and time again that if a Ref2 with a clear and unambiguous Leave option results in a Leave vote, I would accept that.

[Ldr]

BST people interpret things as they see fit. As far as I am concerned there was nothing deal wise offered or implied at the referendum it was as simple as leave which by inference is no deal. That's how I saw the question. People who have a differing opinion on leave / remain have spent 2 year convincing themselves that people who voted leave didn't understand that or voted because of false promises which is very condescending. I voted leave (for reasons I have discussed with you before) with no expectation of any deal

[Ldr]

Wolfie,  PR is the only way forward and would force consensus politics rather than the polarisation we have now

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr

That is absolute nonsense. EVERYONE on the Leave side was telling us we'd get a great deal from the EU.

Farage was talking about us being like Norway or Switzerland (both of whom have deals with the EU).

Johnson told us the EU needed us more than we needed them and would be desperate to give us a good deal.

No one on the Leave side talked about No Deal because it would be boneheadedly stupid to unilaterally decide to cut out economy by 8-9%.

[Ldr]

BST

As I said, I voted with the understanding it didn't imply any deal, the option was to leave the eu.

You illustrate my point about condescension clearly by implying what any of those cretins said had any influence.

[Donnywolf]

I vote this thread is for the discussion of PR in all its forms !

I am 67 almost 68 and for my first 30 years was oblivious to PR - then I used to laugh at John Cleese coming on and singing its praises on behalf of The Liberals

I used to say to the TV - well you would want that as you cant win any other way. The older I got (darent say wiser) I took more interest in all Politics and PR in particular

I staarted this thread because there are more and more pressure groups out there like Make Votes Matter who are dedicated to PR and personally I hope they pull it off. If the Tories dont like it and Labour dont like it I understand that. They have the most to lose. Sure they might carry the Country by 42% as Thatcher did with a landslide but that is not good for us as people

42 pc wanted the Tories 58 pc did not so lots of the 58 are unrepresented. Lots of younger voters especially those "stuck" for instance in South Yorkshire where Labour hold all the Seats with 57% of the Vote openly say "no point Voting - my vote does not count"

So I wanted to throw this out there and if possible through discussions learn a bit more myself - and if some of the "my vote does not count people" read this Thread maybe they will be more advanced understanding wise as I was at their age

One last thing - if PR (in whatever from is used) is so good for most modern democracies why have we "The mother of Parliaments" lagged so far behind in its adoption

[Glyn_Wigley]

BST. You're missing the point. The point is millions of people disagree with you and still want to leave, and will demand the right to leave because the country voted to leave.

I believe that having another vote would undermine democracy resulting in the end of British politics as we know it.

Don't you?

So if we had another vote and a version of Leave won, it'd be undemocratic and shouldn't be acted upon?

How would the people get rid of an MP they don't like under PR?

[Bentley Bullet]

It should have been acted upon in the first place without the need for another vote.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It has been acted upon. And we are where we are now because of that last referendum.

[Bentley Bullet]

We are where we are now because of people like you who won't accept a democratic vote.

[Ldr]

It has been acted upon. And we are where we are now because of that last referendum.

When we leave, then it's been acted on, any other view is crazy

[Boomstick]

Hound.

I have said time and time and time again that if a Ref2 with a clear and unambiguous Leave option results in a Leave vote, I would accept that.

There won't be a ref 2, so kinda pointless.
But if there is a clear and unambiguous explanation of what leave results in, then there also should be a clear and unambiguous explanation of what remain means.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The problem with it is it was never as simple as leave and remain.  Many who voted leave didn't want this deal, or no deal and many who voted remain didn't want to be closer to Europe or stay the same.  The ironic thing is with some change remain would win, but the EU won't give that change.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BST

As I said, I voted with the understanding it didn't imply any deal, the option was to leave the eu.

You illustrate my point about condescension clearly by implying what any of those cretins said had any influence.

You are obviously someone who thinks deeply about issues and forms a coherent judgement. But the fact is that there WERE many, MANY people whose opinions WERE influenced by the discussions in 2016. For example, in the very week of the vote, a poll found that 48% of voters believed the £350m/week claim, even though it had been comprehensively shown to be grossly deceptive at best, an outright lie at worst.

[Ldr]

Think that's the nicest thing you have said to me BST

[Glyn_Wigley]

We are where we are now because of people like you who won't accept a democratic vote.

So it's me that's cobbled together a crap deal and elected the MPs that won't vote for it. Aye, right.

[Bentley Bullet]

It's people like you who can only accept the result of a democratic vote when it goes their way.

Thanks once again for disagreeing with me by the way. It provides such a boost to my opinion.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB.

I'll say again. What exactly WAS Leave in 2016? What was it that Leavers were voting for. if you don't have a firm definition of that, then the vote in 2016 was not a sacred democratic process.

How on earth can a re-visiting of that decision NOW, from a position of far better knowledge about what Leave means, be undemocratic?

[Bentley Bullet]

BST.

I'll say again. The Leave vote was to leave! Leavers were voting to leave. The definition of leave is depart from, go away from, go from, withdraw from, retire from, take oneself off from, exit from, take one's leave of, pull out of, quit, be gone from, decamp from, disappear from, abandon, vacate, absent oneself from, evacuate.

That is the definition (I believe) the Leavers based their decision to leave.

[Glyn_Wigley]

It's people like you who can only accept the result of a democratic vote when it goes their way.

Thanks once again for disagreeing with me by the way. It provides such a boost to my opinion.

What's that got to do with the political impasse there is now? What has it got to do with the negotiations that have resulted in May's deal? What has it got to do with that deal being voted down in parliament? Nothing. Of course.

PS Accepting a result and agreeing with it are two very different things. But you'll ignore that because it doesn't suit your f**kaboutery.

[Bentley Bullet]

Thanks again Mr Wiggerly.

[Glyn_Wigley]

No answer. Of course.

Just more f**kaboutery.

[SydneyRover]

Thanks again Mr Wiggerly.

So if there was another democratic vote and the result was remain, would you accept it BB?

[Bentley Bullet]

I would have been happy with it in the original vote, seeing as I voted for it! As it turned out I lost, but the difference between my stance and some others on here is I accepted it and believe the best way forward now is to support it.

[Bentley Bullet]

Mr Wiggerly. Do you agree with:

No matter what type of voting system we have the most important issue is accepting the result?

Having another vote would undermine democracy resulting in the end of British politics as we know it?

a vote that has already been democratically voted on will not be seen in many millions of pairs of eyes as a democratic vote?

If there is another vote and it went Remain,  the Leavers would demand a 'best of 3' situation?