This looks like fun

[The Red Baron]

  I would say that every MP that stood to be elected under either the labour or conservative manifesto pledge to respect the referendum result and have continually voted against it, and have  campaigned against it subsequently are all open to stand trial then.

Think about it in that way, and you can see what a can of worms has been opened. Serious questions need to be asked about the Judge who allowed this to go forward. It is a bizarre decision.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Didn't really address the core of my question.

If someone commits an egregious lie in a referendum and that affects the result, what's the sanction?

[BillyStubbsTears]

  I would say that every MP that stood to be elected under either the labour or conservative manifesto pledge to respect the referendum result and have continually voted against it, and have  campaigned against it subsequently are all open to stand trial then.

Think about it in that way, and you can see what a can of worms has been opened. Serious questions need to be asked about the Judge who allowed this to go forward. It is a bizarre decision.

No. Because there IS a democratic process for dealing with that. You can vote them out five years later.

How do you address a lie in a Referendum?

[Bentley Bullet]

TRB

Didn't really address the core of my question.

If someone commits an egregious lie in a referendum and that affects the result, what's the sanction?

They should resign.......Oh b*llocks, they did!

Swings and roundabouts owd lad.

[Not Now Kato]

  I would say that every MP that stood to be elected under either the labour or conservative manifesto pledge to respect the referendum result and have continually voted against it, and have  campaigned against it subsequently are all open to stand trial then.

Think about it in that way, and you can see what a can of worms has been opened. Serious questions need to be asked about the Judge who allowed this to go forward. It is a bizarre decision.

Judges are, in the main. politically ambivalent when it comes to application of the law, they have to be.  So, ignoring TV programs like Judge John Deed, what has this Judge done wrong in your eyes?
 

[selby]

  If this goes through, Osborne, Clegg, and Cameron would be on sticky wickets, an immediate recession after the vote, every family will be worse off( Reece Mogg won't be), a once in a lifetime decision, tuition fees, you could go on and on, Cooper and Milliband would be toast.
  That judge wants his bumps feeling.

[Not Now Kato]

  If this goes through, Osborne, Clegg, and Cameron would be on sticky wickets, an immediate recession after the vote, every family will be worse off( Reece Mogg won't be), a once in a lifetime decision, tuition fees, you could go on and on, Cooper and Milliband would be toast.
  That judge wants his bumps feeling.

Oh do keep up.  That Judge was a she!

[Herbert Anchovy]

According to the BBC yesterday, the UK was one of only 9 net contributors to the EU in 2017. We were the second largest net contributor after Germany with a contribution of 6.55 billion pounds. The other 18 countries took out more from the EU than they contributed. Our contribution equates to around 112 euro per person.

Seems you don't understand the club we currently belong to, like most leavers!  We actually gain far more than we contribute - as has been demonstrated numerous times.  But go on, keep believing the lies propagated by the likes of Farrage and the Daily Mail.  Oh, and please, don't complain when things get really bad when we ultimately leave the club, especially if it's with no deal.

Before the 2016 vote, the Treasury was predicting around 2.3% growth over the next decade on the assumption that we Remained.

It's now predicting an average of around 1.5%.

If that prediction is right (and it's been a bit on the optimistic side for the past 3 years) then by 2026, we'll have lost something like £7-800bn of economic output. That's about £1.5bn a week.

Kind of puts the amount Johnson lied about into perspective doesn't it?

Latest Q1 growth figures

Q1 GDP 2018 v Q1 GDP 2019

US + 3.2%
UK + 1.8%
Canada + 1.6%
Eurozone + 1.2%
France + +1.1%
Germany +0.6%
Italy +0.1%

[The Red Baron]

TRB

Didn't really address the core of my question.

If someone commits an egregious lie in a referendum and that affects the result, what's the sanction?

George Osborne said a vote for Leave would cause an immediate recession and mass unemployment. Is he being hauled before the courts?

I realise this is all Whataboutery, but if you are going to apply legal sanctions to politicians where do you stop? I'd love to see Continuity Remain in court for spending two years trying to frustrate the result of a democratic vote rather than pushing for Norway-plus. If they had all got behind that, we'd have left political EU on 29th March, we would have avoided these divisive EU elections, and both sides would be able to claim a victory of sorts. The Remainers would hope they could get us back into the EU one day, and the Leavers would hope we could leave the SM and CU one day.

[Bentley Bullet]

  If this goes through, Osborne, Clegg, and Cameron would be on sticky wickets, an immediate recession after the vote, every family will be worse off( Reece Mogg won't be), a once in a lifetime decision, tuition fees, you could go on and on, Cooper and Milliband would be toast.
  That judge wants his bumps feeling.

Selby, everyone knows you're right, but the sore Remoaners will never admit it. They will do anything to get their way. They have slumped to new depths of unprecedented depravity in modern civilisation.

[The Red Baron]

  I would say that every MP that stood to be elected under either the labour or conservative manifesto pledge to respect the referendum result and have continually voted against it, and have  campaigned against it subsequently are all open to stand trial then.

Think about it in that way, and you can see what a can of worms has been opened. Serious questions need to be asked about the Judge who allowed this to go forward. It is a bizarre decision.

Judges are, in the main. politically ambivalent when it comes to application of the law, they have to be.  So, ignoring TV programs like Judge John Deed, what has this Judge done wrong in your eyes?
 

It's odd then, that a politically charged case is held before a Judge who then makes a political ruling. IMO Johnson, who at the time of the Referendum was a Backbench MP and not a member of the Government, was not in a Public Office. If you want a show trial for Johnson, for whom I have no time, then fine. Just don't expect me to care when they knock on your door.

[Not Now Kato]

  I would say that every MP that stood to be elected under either the labour or conservative manifesto pledge to respect the referendum result and have continually voted against it, and have  campaigned against it subsequently are all open to stand trial then.

Think about it in that way, and you can see what a can of worms has been opened. Serious questions need to be asked about the Judge who allowed this to go forward. It is a bizarre decision.

Judges are, in the main. politically ambivalent when it comes to application of the law, they have to be.  So, ignoring TV programs like Judge John Deed, what has this Judge done wrong in your eyes?
 

It's odd then, that a politically charged case is held before a Judge who then makes a political ruling. IMO Johnson, who at the time of the Referendum was a Backbench MP and not a member of the Government, was not in a Public Office. If you want a show trial for Johnson, for whom I have no time, then fine. Just don't expect me to care when they knock on your door.

No, the judge made a legal ruling based on the submissions presented to  her. It's what judges do!  Bugger all to do with politics.  And why on God's green earth should anyone be knocking on my door? 
 

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

I'm  not getting back into the debate about Osborne's predictions. Read earlier in the thread if you're interested, but suffice to say they are qualitatively of a totally different genre to Vote Leave's £350m/week ( not to mention Turkish immigrants and EU killing polar bears...)

Regarding "getting behind a Norway deal", how could anyone have done that when May set down red lines 2.5 years ago that committed her to getting us out of the CU. THAT was the moment that a Brexit that could have reached over the divide died. She saw playing to the Tory Right (20% of the 52%) as more important than reaching out to the 48%. Personally, I'd have been (in fact, was) fully behind a Norway deal in early 2017. May removed that option and polarised the debate

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

Fascinating how no Brexit supporter EVER puts up the growth figures for the first 2.5 years after the Referendum.

I'll do it for you.



By the way,from 2014-16, we had the highest growth rate in the G7. After that, we've vied with the long term basket cases Japan and Italy for the lowest.

And even more frightening for the future, commercial investment has flatlined. That will hit us like a 4x2 in the future.



By the way, you DO know why our GDP growth was abnormally high in Q1 this year? It was companies stockpiling raw materials as insurance against the anticipation of a chaotic Brexit at the end of March. For March itself, when it was clear that we weren't leaving, economic output actually SHRUNK.

You can choose to highlight numbers that support your case, but there's enough data in the bank to draw unarguable conclusions now. Our GDP is about 2% lower now than it would have been if we'd continued to grow at the rate that we were growing before the Referendum. But it's worse than that. The rest of the world had a boom in 2017 and 18. Their GDP growth shot up, while ours, alone in the G7, shrank. Factor that in, and our GDP is about 4% lower than it should have been. Or, in cash money, we've missed out on about £150bn of economic output that we should have had.

ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY BILLION.

That's not a prediction. That's happened.
In the past 3 years we have lost 20-odf years worth of net contributions to the EU.  That's what YOUR vote has given us.

[SydneyRover]

Just for the hell of it stick this into your search engine, I take no responsibility it it crashes.

Boris Johnson a history of lies and incompetence


Boris Johnson "on the right side of history"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4P796ztgoVw

It's only 5 mins but worth hearing it through.

[Herbert Anchovy]

HA

Fascinating how no Brexit supporter EVER puts up the growth figures for the first 2.5 years after the Referendum.

I'll do it for you.



By the way,from 2014-16, we had the highest growth rate in the G7. After that, we've vied with the long term basket cases Japan and Italy for the lowest.

And even more frightening for the future, commercial investment has flatlined. That will hit us like a 4x2 in the future.



By the way, you DO know why our GDP growth was abnormally high in Q1 this year? It was companies stockpiling raw materials as insurance against the anticipation of a chaotic Brexit at the end of March. For March itself, when it was clear that we weren't leaving, economic output actually SHRUNK.

You can choose to highlight numbers that support your case, but there's enough data in the bank to draw unarguable conclusions now. Our GDP is about 2% lower now than it would have been if we'd continued to grow at the rate that we were growing before the Referendum. But it's worse than that. The rest of the world had a boom in 2017 and 18. Their GDP growth shot up, while ours, alone in the G7, shrank. Factor that in, and our GDP is about 4% lower than it should have been. Or, in cash money, we've missed out on about £150bn of economic output that we should have had.

ONE HUNDRED AND FIFTY BILLION.

That's not a prediction. That's happened.
In the past 3 years we have lost 20-odf years worth of net contributions to the EU.  That's what YOUR vote has given us.

Billy,

You're probably right on a number of those points.

It's also interesting that Germany saw only a 0.4% growth during Q1 compared to the previous quarter.Indeed their economy actually shrank in Q3 last year and they  missed recession by the skin of their teeth. Economies fluctuate for many reasons. Of course Brexit is a factor for the UK but for the past 6 months we've outperformed Germany. So, to shine a light on Brexit as the only contributing factor is utterly false.

Also, I'm sure you know that the largest components of GDP are services and construction. This applies to all Euro countries. So, if stockpiling is the reason behind our growth, could you advise how on earth you stockpile construction and services?

Finally, MY vote hasn't caused any of this. The uncertainty wasn't caused by the UK voting to leave the EU. It's been caused by a catastrophic goverment and a parliament unwilling to deliver the result of the referendum. Instead, business doesn't know what the hell to do because the remain  faction have a policy of blocking brexit at every possible turn, whatever the cost.

[SydneyRover]

''Finally, MY vote hasn't caused any of this. The uncertainty wasn't caused by the UK voting to leave the EU. It's been caused by a catastrophic goverment and a parliament unwilling to deliver the result of the referendum. Instead, business doesn't know what the hell to do because the remain  faction have a policy of blocking brexit at every possible turn, whatever the cost''

Yes HA except the ProEU group have only questioned, probe and challenged they haven't actually stopped anything yet. If business is in a bind it's on the shoulders of government and their incompetent ministers.

[Herbert Anchovy]

''Finally, MY vote hasn't caused any of this. The uncertainty wasn't caused by the UK voting to leave the EU. It's been caused by a catastrophic goverment and a parliament unwilling to deliver the result of the referendum. Instead, business doesn't know what the hell to do because the remain  faction have a policy of blocking brexit at every possible turn, whatever the cost''

Yes HA except the ProEU group have only questioned, probe and challenged they haven't actually stopped anything yet. If business is in a bind it's on the shoulders of government and their incompetent ministers.

Well, yes Sydney. That's pretty much what I said. However it's a little naive to believe that the pro EU mp's are merely 'probing'. I don't believe for one moment that Chucka, Lammy and those like them would vote for ANY Brexit proposal. I'm quite sure that their policy is to stop Brexit at all costs.

[SydneyRover]

''Finally, MY vote hasn't caused any of this. The uncertainty wasn't caused by the UK voting to leave the EU. It's been caused by a catastrophic goverment and a parliament unwilling to deliver the result of the referendum. Instead, business doesn't know what the hell to do because the remain  faction have a policy of blocking brexit at every possible turn, whatever the cost''

Yes HA except the ProEU group have only questioned, probe and challenged they haven't actually stopped anything yet. If business is in a bind it's on the shoulders of government and their incompetent ministers.

Well, yes Sydney. That's pretty much what I said. However it's a little naive to believe that the pro EU mp's are merely 'probing'. I don't believe for one moment that Chucka, Lammy and those like them would vote for ANY Brexit proposal. I'm quite sure that their policy is to stop Brexit at all costs.

True HA but they still have not stopped brexit happening, that's all on the government which has been unable to get it up, so to speak.

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA

I do appreciate that there's s reluctance on the Leave side to face up to the negatives of their decision, and a determination to overplay perceived positives.

But on the fact that stockpiling added to "growth" in Q1, you don't have to look very far to find the info. You don't have to rely on your own guesses.

https://www.schroders.com/en/insights/economics/brexit-stockpiling-drives-improvement-in-uk-gdp-growth/

https://www.google.com/amp/s/uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1SR0Y6

https://www.cbi.org.uk/media-centre/articles/brexit-uncertainty-sees-stockpiling-race-to-post-financial-crisis-peak-cbi/

[SydneyRover]

Oh and don't forget these!

https://www.trusselltrust.org/

[selby]

  What really intrigues me about this subject, and could be the reason the UK is lagging behind, is what the bloody hell do some of the regular posters do on here for work? do you have time to work? and what do you discuss with your mates at work? and what will you do with your time when Brexit is over and done with?
  There will be a bloody great hole in your lives, you will have to start talking to the wife again.
 

[wilts rover]

The contrast between Osborne, Cameron, May, Corbyn or any other politician making promises and projections and this £350 million claim is what I think is the heart of this court case.

As we know politicians are more than prone to making claims that they can't deliver - or predictions that don't come true. However what is being alleged here is not that Johnson was making a claim or prediction - but he was stating something factual he knew not to be true.

So what they need to prove is:

a) the £350 million a week claim is untrue
b) Johnson knew this to be false when he made it

According to Farage he knew it wasn't true and that Gove & Johnson shouldn't be making it. According to Tim Shipman's book he told Gove this at a dinner in May 2016.

So if Nigel Farage thinks Johnson was wrong - and told his campaign so at the time - why do you think he is right? And Farage wrong?

[selby]

  So what you are saying Wilts is that we can believe all the promises and projections, and that's all right.
   Please don't give any MP's this idea, Christ knows what they would think up.
    Both major parties stated in their manifesto's to respect the referendum result, is that a promise or factual?is it Ok or not?
   Most of the politicians  about nowadays couldn't lay straight in bed in a straight jacket.
   If this goes to court, watch the counter prosecutions against others come in.
  Personally I think I could be a hanging judge for Cameron and Osborne.
   

[scawsby steve]

It won't go to court.

[BillyStubbsTears]

They ALL knew the £350m/week figure was grossly inaccurate as a net figure. Cummings made that clear in a letter to Andrew Dilnott. They claim that it doesn't matter, because, as BB posted yesterday, we send the gross amount, but on the understanding that we get a large rebate sent back.

At the very least, quoting £350m/week and claiming that THAT sum should be spent on something else, whilst ignoring the rebate is an egregious lie of omission.

It's typical of Cummings, who is of the opinion that there is no-one in politics cleverer than him. But hammering that message home to the extent that half the population, in the week of the vote thought that our EU membership cost us that amount is simply disgraceful.

Almost as disgraceful as setting up a betting competition on line that no-one could possibly win, in order to identify gullible people who could be targeted with secretly targeted on-line lies about the EU which the Remain side couldn't rebut, because they didn't know they were being sent.

But that's the contempt for democracy that the clever bas**rds who ran Vote Leave had.

[wilts rover]

No Selby, what I am saying is that Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage said different things about the slogan on the bus.

What I am also saying is that this claim is provable. We either do or we dont give that amount of money. Boris Johnson either did or did not know if it was a true fact.

If it does go to court a judge and jury will make a legal judgement on the case. But at the moment all we have is that either Farage or Johnson is wrong, which one is it?

[selby]

 Steve, I agree with you, it won't.

[selby]

  What I will say is that the battle bus shown on the BBC news channel when the story broke had the word could as part of the inscription on the side of the bus, as I pointed out to the wife at the time.
  On the still photographs I have subsequently seen on this thread no such word is in the lettering.
  It leads me to two theories, either someone has purposely doctored the still photographs, or the word was added as the campaign progressed if the same bus.
  just as an aside, what do you think could possibly be the truth? 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

I know it's like pushing water uphill but here you go.

https://mobile.twitter.com/vote_leave/status/730415023571542017

And here.

https://mobile.twitter.com/vote_leave/status/735380643195064320

For what it's worth, I've never seen a photo of the bus slogan with the word "could" on it. You sure you're remembering clearly?