Well done Sadiq Khan for setting the facts straight.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST. Being mature is easy. Being able to distinguish between what are fake videos and genuine ones takes a bit more intelligence - Unless your mind is completely made up before you watch it.

I suspect yours was, and no doubt mine would be if I watched it. Although I suspect we'd have opposite conclusions.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

It was posted by Leave.EU.

It WAS fake. It terms of being deliberately untrue. Of course it was. There's no question of that.

I'm sure YOU would be too smart to be taken in. You prove on a daily basis that you are a smart so-and-so.

The point is that it is DESIGNED to mislead people who AREN'T smart so-and-so's like you.

And judging by the fact that it has been retweeted and liked several thousand times, it appears to have worked.

But that's fine. You don't care about that. I understand. Ill view anything you ever say on the subject of honesty and truth through that lens in future.

[scawsby steve]

BST

You keep talking about deliberate lies and deception, and people who still choose to follow those liars despite the evidence.

According to the polls, Vince Cable is still popular. You're right; people believe what they want to believe.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS

See. Here we go again.

Cable didn't lie. Cable had to make a very difficult political judgement after the 2010 election.

I said at the time (vociferously) that I thought the LDs had made a very serious error. And that they deserved to pay a political price at the next election.

But saying they lied is silly. When you enter a coalition, it is inevitable that you have to compromise. If you're the junior partner, you have to compromise on a lot. That's political life.

Comparing that to a video which is deliberately and knowingly edited to spread a lie is ridiculous.

What do YOU think about that Leave.EU video by the way?

[i_ateallthepies]

BB
How do you "balance the argument" if you point blank refuse to look at what Leave.EU are doing? You've no idea what you are "balancing".

Anyone would think that having an argument is more important to you than dealing with this maturely.

Bang on the money there, BST.  BB isn't interested in the lies of politicians (of any persuasion), his faux indignation at what he keeps trying to show as lies in the Remain case is just sour grapes at having finished on the losing side.  Telling isn't it that he didn't have a problem with the Remain case up to Remain losing but then promptly became a Leave advocate and has spent every minute since acting the smart arse pretending to be principled about honouring democracy.  We're not taken in BB!
Interesting that he has nothing to say about the proven wrongs perpetrated by those who promoted Leave despite the innumerable times he has been asked.  He just can't resist trying to appear smart to his adopted Leave brethren.  Trouble is, he hasn't laid a glove on the irrefutable evidence supporting the Remain case, all he's achieved is making himself look... well, less than the intelligent person you credit him with being.

[Bentley Bullet]

Mr Pastry.

I'm not interested in people who find their own cause so desperate that it is easier to search for bad in the opposition in order to claim righteousness in their own beliefs. It's a real shame they can't suggest just one politician who they can be proud of who represents their point of view instead.

My point has never been about the rights and wrongs of us voting to leave the EU. My point has always been about standing by the result like we always have democratically done in the past and gone forward at least in a united way as to gain the best out of the situation.

[SydneyRover]

Mr Pastry.

I'm not interested in people who find their own cause so desperate that it is easier to search for bad in the opposition in order to claim righteousness in their own beliefs. It's a real shame they can't suggest just one politician who they can be proud of who represents their point of view instead.

My point has never been about the rights and wrongs of us voting to leave the EU. My point has always been about standing by the result like we always have democratically done in the past and gone forward at least in a united way as to gain the best out of the situation.

So you keep saying BB and it's notable how many times your posts allude to those you see or assume to be  non-british but framed to give the impression it doesn't bother yourself.

[Herbert Anchovy]

''It’s un-British to roll out the red carpet for Donald Trump''

''Donald Trump is just one of the most egregious examples of a growing global threat. The far right is on the rise around the world, threatening our hard-won rights and freedoms and the values that have defined our liberal, democratic societies for more than seventy years. Viktor Orbán in Hungary, Matteo Salvini in Italy, Marine Le Pen in France and Nigel Farage here in the UK are using the same divisive tropes of the fascists of the 20th century to garner support, but are using new sinister methods to deliver their message. And they are gaining ground and winning power and influence in places that would have been unthinkable just a few years ago''

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jun/01/donald-trump-state-visit-red-carpet-unbritish

Just accept it Sydney, the EU is going to collapse like a pack of cards.

Had we known that there was going to be a push to let the facists run the joint we could have saved a lot lot of bother and joined Germany before the second world war, maybe the royal family were right after all.

Maybe you should ask yourself why so many people across Europe feel so disenfranchised by the EU that they're voting for populist politicians.

Oh I do HA, and I also ask myself why otherwise normal people vote for these morons when it's clearly against their own interests, maybe the last bit is the bit they don't get?

(mod) When farage and his ilk press the right buttons those that accept the rubbish don't appear to want to check out the facts nor read an alternate view before jumping on the bandwagon. Is this because they are happy to have their views confirmed or don't want to be out of step with those they live and or  socialise with?
Look at the debate about the 'bus' it's as plain as black and white (red really) but now we are asked to believe someone has gone around and photoshopped all the photos and videos on the internet, everywhere.

There Sydney, you have displayed perfectly why so many people on the leave side are so angry. The default position for remainers is that leave voters were duped. That they consist of people blind to the truth and ignorant of the facts. Some may be but many, many arent. Maybe if the remain side put equal effort into espousing the benefits of EU membership and addressing the concerns of leave voters instead of lazily assuming that they are, at best,  gullible idiots, or at worst, intellectually unhinged morons, they'd have had more success at changing opinions. For me, remain lost the vote during the TV debates when, instead of talking up EU membership Sadiq Khan and others walked right into the trap set by Farage and Johnson and began portraying an Armageddon scenario. It's painful to watch. For me, not one of my concerns around membership has been addressed and I guess there's millions of others like me. For one reason or another millions of people across Europe feel completely disenfranchised by the EU, so something is clearly not working. Rather than lazily assuming that these people are being conned maybe the mainstream parties should actually listen to their concerns and address these before the right wing nutters get an even stronger foothold.

[BillyStubbsTears]

HA
No-one, absolutely no-one is saying ALL Leave supporters are stupid and easily duped. Many have very thoughtful and principled opinions (although in your specific case, coming from the Left, I'm bemused at your support for what, in the current circumstances could only be a far-Right determined Brexit).

The point though, is that the very people who ran the Leave campaign clearly believe there ARE plenty of Leave supporters who will lap up egregious lies. As I've been saying all weekend, that appalling video from Farage's Leave.EU demonstrates that beyond argument.

And it needs only a few opinions to be tipped either way.

[Herbert Anchovy]

HA
No-one, absolutely no-one is saying ALL Leave supporters are stupid and easily duped. Many have very thoughtful and principled opinions (although in your specific case, coming from the Left, I'm bemused at your support for what, in the current circumstances could only be a far-Right determined Brexit).

The point though, is that the very people who ran the Leave campaign clearly believe there ARE plenty of Leave supporters who will lap up egregious lies. As I've been saying all weekend, that appalling video from Farage's Leave.EU demonstrates that beyond argument.

And it needs only a few opinions to be tipped either way.

You only need to look at some of the points posted on social media to debunk your first point Billy.

Re your second point, I believe that the debate is now so polarized and vicious that even if undeniable facts are placed in front of them, many views are so entrenched that people won't change their minds.To be brutally honest we're all guilty of that including me. Remain had the perfect opportunity to remedy this effectively in 2016 and screwed up.

Finally, as I clarified to you last week,I'm no supporter of the right and if we had another referendum tomorrow I would likely vote to remain simply to keep Farage etc out. 

[SydneyRover]

HA, the remain argument has stayed pretty much the same across time since the vote which is that the UK will suffer economically should we leave, there will  be other ramifications surrounding our strategic defence and the real risk of reverting back to London centric spending and economics, there are lots of other smaller scale disadvantages too. Most of this is indisputable fact and the majority of experts support these arguments.

All the while we are fed dog whistling and stories about a magic bus with an ever changing message painted on the side and a leaflet where there is a subliminal message written into it, but ........................ and I say it again no one here nor in parliament nor in the UK has stepped up and told us how we will be better off economically out of the EU.

[RobTheRover]

Its funny, isn't it, that we are debating this on a footy message board when the whole debate has been turned into a tribal "my team v your team" based on how people voted 3 years ago.

I know a handful of people who have "switched allegiances" but it clearly is only a handful.  Remain voters who would now vote leave because they believe that's in the interest of democracy, and Leave voters who now realise that leaving would be an immediate economic disaster and they had been lied to, the £350m a week is cobblers, etc.  The rest seem passionately loyal to their team, even if there are causes for concerns that everyone else can see and they are blinded to.

All because of a vote 3 years ago.  A bit like choosing your footy team at 5 years old. 

[albie]

RTR,

Just so, lad.

Welcome to the world of "my team, right or wrong".......the new Endarkenment of world politics!

Seeing Trump getting the red carpet treatment in the hope we might get a trade deal to reflect the "historic relationship"is the last word in debasement.

Seems fitting toxic Treeze gets to curtsy for the cameras one last time!

[bobjimwilly]

Anyone would think that having an argument is more important to you than dealing with this maturely.

Nail, meet head.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Anyone would think that having an argument is more important to you than dealing with this maturely.

Nail, meet head.

It's got to the stage where BB has become a parody of himself.

[RobTheRover]

RTR,

Just so, lad.

Welcome to the world of "my team, right or wrong".......the new Endarkenment of world politics!

Seeing Trump getting the red carpet treatment in the hope we might get a trade deal to reflect the "historic relationship"is the last word in debasement.

Seems fitting toxic Treeze gets to curtsy for the cameras one last time!

Spot on, Albie. How those with a vested interest made people so passionate about something no one really gave a toss about 4 years ago is a book I really want to read. By giving the eurosceptic/hard right of the Conservative Party some legitimacy Cameron et al created a platform for discord that naivety (and a misplaced arrogance) forbid them to see.

The real trick those who wanted the EU to fail managed to pull was turning public perception (in certain quarters) to make the EU the focus of all the country's ills.  If we didn't send £350m a week to the EU we could fund the NHS, they claimed. No, if we didn't have a set of arrogant pricks in charge we wouldn't have underfunded the NHS in the name of austerity.  Talk about creating soft targets if the opposition is prepared to lie about it to get their way.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Oldest trick in the right wing book Roberto.

You hit the poorest with your policies while telling them it's the nasty evil foreigners who are to blame. Happened throughout modern history and all over the world. I'd naively thought we were too smart to fall for it in one of the best educated and most advanced countries in history, but what do I know?

[RobTheRover]

Yeah, I know that, Billston. And I too am amazed at all the pricks who have chosen to ignore histories lessons.

Divide and conquer. Demonise those who are different. Create them and us (remoaners and gammons). And too many go right along with it. Human nature is to be part of something bigger. A collective. Belonging. Old Maslow nailed it.

[Not Now Kato]

Yeah, I know that, Billston. And I too am amazed at all the pricks who have chosen to ignore histories lessons.

Divide and conquer. Demonise those who are different. Create them and us (remoaners and gammons). And too many go right along with it. Human nature is to be part of something bigger. A collective. Belonging. Old Maslow nailed it.

Yes RTR, you're quire right.
 
A guy called Mark posted this on another, (fishing), forum I visit....
 
Ah... "us normals" (v. them elitists). Been hearing that quite a lot lately. Keystone of the new orthodoxy as witnessed in many countries. Time to call it out here.

Translation? Because all people are equal and entitled equally to their opinions all opinions are equal and anyone who says otherwise is a wicked and condescending pseudo intellectual elitist etc etc. If you disagree with me you are insulting me and denying me my rights so I have a reciprocal right to insult and attack you. Has a familiar 1930's ring to it. It's the rubric of populism and the catch phrase of the belligerently opinionated. Difference is now an offence instead of a right. Ignorance is now a virtue instead of a deficit.

Fortunately, I can look back with some fondness to the days when opinions were judged by the expertise of their source instead of the entitlements of their owners.
 
His words sum up what I see more and more, everywhere I look; and I'm disheartened at just what this world is turning into, as I too am of an age where I can look back with some fondness to the days when opinions were judged by the expertise of their source instead of the entitlements of their owners.