HS2 - Could be scraped

[Not Now Kato]

No it's not my opinion. It's simple economics.


As for your other, very silly comment...I leave many incorrect posts uncommented on. I'm returning to yours because you're like a dog with a badly wrong bone.

I assume you're referring to my earlier post BST?
 
If so, see my post immediately preceding this one and tell me if you believe I'm still incorrect; and importantly, why?

No NNK. I was referring to Hound.

I fully accept that there are different arguments for priorities in infrastructure spending. And equally, I see no reason why we shouldn't build HS2 and HS3.

France, Spain, Japan, Italy and Germany have all built multiple HS lines. The only problem we have in the UK is stunted ambitions after decades of underinvestment.

Indeed, but the priority should be HS3, widening and an extension to the M18 to take it round the South side of Sheffield and on to Stockport to relieve some of the congestion on the M62.  There are many other infrastructure improvements that need to be addressed before trying to shave off a few minutes into London IMO.  At the moment the priority, (and therefore the spend), all seems to be centred on London and the Home Counties furthering the economic divide between the North and the South!

[Axholme Lion]

No it's not my opinion. It's simple economics.


As for your other, very silly comment...I leave many incorrect posts uncommented on. I'm returning to yours because you're like a dog with a badly wrong bone.

I assume you're referring to my earlier post BST?
 
If so, see my post immediately preceding this one and tell me if you believe I'm still incorrect; and importantly, why?

No NNK. I was referring to Hound.

I fully accept that there are different arguments for priorities in infrastructure spending. And equally, I see no reason why we shouldn't build HS2 and HS3.

France, Spain, Japan, Italy and Germany have all built multiple HS lines. The only problem we have in the UK is stunted ambitions after decades of underinvestment.

Indeed, but the priority should be HS3, widening and an extension to the M18 to take it round the South side of Sheffield and on to Stockport to relieve some of the congestion on the M62.  There are many other infrastructure improvements that need to be addressed before trying to shave off a few minutes into London IMO.  At the moment the priority, (and therefore the spend), all seems to be centred on London and the Home Counties furthering the economic divide between the North and the South!

What about the untold damage to the countryside and people's homes?

[BillyStubbsTears]

NNK.

You're preaching to the converted (although no one is ever going to put a motorway round the south of Sheffield. That requires either a 30 mile tunnel or tarmac-ing the Hope Valley. Ain't going to happen. What's needed is the Stocksbridge-Denton motorway through Woodhead with the Dearne Valley Link Road upgraded to motorway back to the A1.)

Anyway. The issue is that we don't need to prioritise one over the other. There is no reason at all why HS2 and 3 can't happen at the same time. Only political will is stopping it.

As for the London issue, I entirely agree about the economic imbalance. But it's there. It exists. London us always going to be a magnet. What's needed is better transport links to encourage firms to set up outside London but still be in each reach of London. That's what has happened in the M4 corridor. The huge investment in rail links between Reading and London has dragged in loads of major companies to set up in Reading.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No it's not my opinion. It's simple economics.


As for your other, very silly comment...I leave many incorrect posts uncommented on. I'm returning to yours because you're like a dog with a badly wrong bone.

I assume you're referring to my earlier post BST?
 
If so, see my post immediately preceding this one and tell me if you believe I'm still incorrect; and importantly, why?

No NNK. I was referring to Hound.

I fully accept that there are different arguments for priorities in infrastructure spending. And equally, I see no reason why we shouldn't build HS2 and HS3.

France, Spain, Japan, Italy and Germany have all built multiple HS lines. The only problem we have in the UK is stunted ambitions after decades of underinvestment.

Indeed, but the priority should be HS3, widening and an extension to the M18 to take it round the South side of Sheffield and on to Stockport to relieve some of the congestion on the M62.  There are many other infrastructure improvements that need to be addressed before trying to shave off a few minutes into London IMO.  At the moment the priority, (and therefore the spend), all seems to be centred on London and the Home Counties furthering the economic divide between the North and the South!

What about the untold damage to the countryside and people's homes?

It happens.
How many square miles of countryside have been destroyed through railways compared to airports and the road network? You don't seem to get too upset about us having them.

[Axholme Lion]

No it's not my opinion. It's simple economics.


As for your other, very silly comment...I leave many incorrect posts uncommented on. I'm returning to yours because you're like a dog with a badly wrong bone.

I assume you're referring to my earlier post BST?
 
If so, see my post immediately preceding this one and tell me if you believe I'm still incorrect; and importantly, why?

No NNK. I was referring to Hound.

I fully accept that there are different arguments for priorities in infrastructure spending. And equally, I see no reason why we shouldn't build HS2 and HS3.

France, Spain, Japan, Italy and Germany have all built multiple HS lines. The only problem we have in the UK is stunted ambitions after decades of underinvestment.

Indeed, but the priority should be HS3, widening and an extension to the M18 to take it round the South side of Sheffield and on to Stockport to relieve some of the congestion on the M62.  There are many other infrastructure improvements that need to be addressed before trying to shave off a few minutes into London IMO.  At the moment the priority, (and therefore the spend), all seems to be centred on London and the Home Counties furthering the economic divide between the North and the South!

What about the untold damage to the countryside and people's homes?

It happens.
How many square miles of countryside have been destroyed through railways compared to airports and the road network? You don't seem to get too upset about us having them.

Any building development which takes away green space upsets me. It feels as though we are becoming a concrete jungle. I can't understand why all these industrial units get built and stand there empty. There clearly isn't much need for them.

[silent majority]

I'm currently on a Bullet train between Tokyo and Osaka. The infrastructure this country has is literally breathtaking, and it all works. We can only dream of having something similar as no government, or, it seems, people on this forum would want it.

If you were to experience it I'm sure you would all change your minds. The impact on quality of life would be immense.

I don't think a lot of us are against investments in our infrastructure SM, it's just looking to where those investments might be best placed for the benefit of the whole of the UK and IMO HS2 isn't it.  We need significant improvements of bot the rail and road networks East to West far more than shaving off a few minutes between Birmingham and London.  I can get from Doncaster to London far quicker with the infrastructure as it is today than I can from Doncaster to Liverpool, (which is nearer), for example.
 
I used to commute from Southport to Manchester by rail and it was a nightmare - old rolling stock, slow trains and unbelievable congestion.
 
My eldest Son travels from just outside Bolton to Manchester and it's an absolute nightmare - and he travels outside of peak times!  The M60 and M62 are no longer fit for purpose.
 
It's investment in the North for everyone here that's needed, not a few minutes quicker for businessmen into London!

Apologies for the delay in responding NNK, I've done a lot of miles in the last few days and jet lag is a bitch.

We're on the same page here, I have never argued for HS2 on this thread or elsewhere (despite Hound basing his whole argument against me on that point), all I've suggested is that an integrated transport policy, which should mean major investment, would benefit all of us. There are obviously priorities in certain places, and the north needs them desperately.

As an example, in Osaka where I spent the last few days, I had a hotel close to the OCAT, https://osaka-info.jp/en/page/ocat-osaka-air-terminal, and then in the morning caught a bus direct to the terminal at Kansai airport. Buses run every 10 minutes, trains every 7/8 minutes or so, and it's a distance of about  32 miles and takes 36 minutes.

On arriving at Manchester airport it felt like arriving in a 3rd world country, it was scruffy, desolate and the train I needed only runs every couple of hours. Admittedly its longer, about 66 miles, but it takes 2 hours, and on a train packed to the rafters with no facilities. The contrast between the two countries and journey's couldn't have been starker. The lack of investment is a disgrace.

[silent majority]

No it's not my opinion. It's simple economics.


As for your other, very silly comment...I leave many incorrect posts uncommented on. I'm returning to yours because you're like a dog with a badly wrong bone.

I assume you're referring to my earlier post BST?
 
If so, see my post immediately preceding this one and tell me if you believe I'm still incorrect; and importantly, why?

No NNK. I was referring to Hound.

I fully accept that there are different arguments for priorities in infrastructure spending. And equally, I see no reason why we shouldn't build HS2 and HS3.

France, Spain, Japan, Italy and Germany have all built multiple HS lines. The only problem we have in the UK is stunted ambitions after decades of underinvestment.

Indeed, but the priority should be HS3, widening and an extension to the M18 to take it round the South side of Sheffield and on to Stockport to relieve some of the congestion on the M62.  There are many other infrastructure improvements that need to be addressed before trying to shave off a few minutes into London IMO.  At the moment the priority, (and therefore the spend), all seems to be centred on London and the Home Counties furthering the economic divide between the North and the South!

What about the untold damage to the countryside and people's homes?

It happens.
How many square miles of countryside have been destroyed through railways compared to airports and the road network? You don't seem to get too upset about us having them.

Any building development which takes away green space upsets me. It feels as though we are becoming a concrete jungle. I can't understand why all these industrial units get built and stand there empty. There clearly isn't much need for them.

Concrete jungle? Do you have any idea how little is actually built on in the UK?

It depends how you measure it, but less than 10% would pretty accurate.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm currently on a Bullet train between Tokyo and Osaka. The infrastructure this country has is literally breathtaking, and it all works. We can only dream of having something similar as no government, or, it seems, people on this forum would want it.

If you were to experience it I'm sure you would all change your minds. The impact on quality of life would be immense.

I don't think a lot of us are against investments in our infrastructure SM, it's just looking to where those investments might be best placed for the benefit of the whole of the UK and IMO HS2 isn't it.  We need significant improvements of bot the rail and road networks East to West far more than shaving off a few minutes between Birmingham and London.  I can get from Doncaster to London far quicker with the infrastructure as it is today than I can from Doncaster to Liverpool, (which is nearer), for example.
 
I used to commute from Southport to Manchester by rail and it was a nightmare - old rolling stock, slow trains and unbelievable congestion.
 
My eldest Son travels from just outside Bolton to Manchester and it's an absolute nightmare - and he travels outside of peak times!  The M60 and M62 are no longer fit for purpose.
 
It's investment in the North for everyone here that's needed, not a few minutes quicker for businessmen into London!

Apologies for the delay in responding NNK, I've done a lot of miles in the last few days and jet lag is a bitch.

We're on the same page here, I have never argued for HS2 on this thread or elsewhere (despite Hound basing his whole argument against me on that point), all I've suggested is that an integrated transport policy, which should mean major investment, would benefit all of us. There are obviously priorities in certain places, and the north needs them desperately.

As an example, in Osaka where I spent the last few days, I had a hotel close to the OCAT, https://osaka-info.jp/en/page/ocat-osaka-air-terminal, and then in the morning caught a bus direct to the terminal at Kansai airport. Buses run every 10 minutes, trains every 7/8 minutes or so, and it's a distance of about  32 miles and takes 36 minutes.

On arriving at Manchester airport it felt like arriving in a 3rd world country, it was scruffy, desolate and the train I needed only runs every couple of hours. Admittedly its longer, about 66 miles, but it takes 2 hours, and on a train packed to the rafters with no facilities. The contrast between the two countries and journey's couldn't have been starker. The lack of investment is a disgrace.

I agree with every word of this.

I was at a conference in Shizuoka a few years ago. Flew to Nagoya. Metro from the terminal to the Shikansen line station. Bullet train to Shizuoka. Loads of hotels within spitting distance of the train. And light rail trains every 5 minutes from Shizuoka station to the conference venue.

Every step easy, efficient, clean, on time and cheap.

As you say,arriving back at Manchester is horrific by comparison. And that's one of the better-connected airports.

What gets me more than anything about arriving back at a UK airport is how filthy everything is, and how much of the infrastructure (lifts, escalators, travellators) doesn't work.

It feels of "Welcome to England. We don't a really give much of a f**k here."

[silent majority]

My wife was with me on this trip, and she, bless her, never notices anything, I usually have to point these things out to her. But on arrival at Manchester, as we sat in that grotty little room that passes for a waiting room on the platform she commented on how filthy everything was. She even said that she wondered what Japanese people would make of a welcome like this to our country.

We were in Japan for about 10 days, we travelled extensively, taking in Osaka, Hiroshima, Kyoto, Sapporo, Tokyo, Kobe, and finally back to Osaka. We used the bullet train, express trains, local rail, coaches, planes, the metro and just one taxi because we weren't sure where to go. Every bit of it was joined up, coordinated, clean, and ran on time, every time, and all of the time.

For a country like ours, that has the 5th largest economy in the world, our transport network is a disgrace.

[selby]

I have never been to Japan, been to lot's in Europe, mostly by car under my own steam. I don't even know without research whether a countries rail networks is nationalised or private company.
   But in this country I do know the running of our railway system is about making money for the firms involved, and running a rail network is secondary. They will not employ people they think they have no need of, and that can effect the bottom line(cleaners etc.).
   If they can get away with old rail stock they will do. Full rail stock makes money, half empty does not, the interval of trains is extended for this purpose, the same with bus companies.
   The lead comes from the top, and what is the main thing the heads of companies in this country are interested in now? The answer themselves and the big bucks. 

[BillyStubbsTears]

Selby.

Then vote Labour. They're going to re-nationalise the rail companies.

[selby]

  Billy I would re-nationalise the rail service tomorrow, and let local councils run bus services again as in my youth, because it was better.
  I will never vote Labour again, after a lifetime of never voting for anyone else.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I really don't get you Selby.

Labour has a string of policies that you would support. But you won't vote for them because...?

[scawsby steve]

Selby.

Then vote Labour. They're going to re-nationalise the rail companies.

Genuine question. As much as I'd love to see the rail companies re-nationalised, won't the EU block this?

[BillyStubbsTears]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-railways-eu-rules-nationalise-single-market-restrictions-labour-a8968691.html

No and yes.

[Not Now Kato]

I'm currently on a Bullet train between Tokyo and Osaka. The infrastructure this country has is literally breathtaking, and it all works. We can only dream of having something similar as no government, or, it seems, people on this forum would want it.

If you were to experience it I'm sure you would all change your minds. The impact on quality of life would be immense.

I don't think a lot of us are against investments in our infrastructure SM, it's just looking to where those investments might be best placed for the benefit of the whole of the UK and IMO HS2 isn't it.  We need significant improvements of bot the rail and road networks East to West far more than shaving off a few minutes between Birmingham and London.  I can get from Doncaster to London far quicker with the infrastructure as it is today than I can from Doncaster to Liverpool, (which is nearer), for example.
 
I used to commute from Southport to Manchester by rail and it was a nightmare - old rolling stock, slow trains and unbelievable congestion.
 
My eldest Son travels from just outside Bolton to Manchester and it's an absolute nightmare - and he travels outside of peak times!  The M60 and M62 are no longer fit for purpose.
 
It's investment in the North for everyone here that's needed, not a few minutes quicker for businessmen into London!

Apologies for the delay in responding NNK, I've done a lot of miles in the last few days and jet lag is a bitch.

We're on the same page here, I have never argued for HS2 on this thread or elsewhere (despite Hound basing his whole argument against me on that point), all I've suggested is that an integrated transport policy, which should mean major investment, would benefit all of us. There are obviously priorities in certain places, and the north needs them desperately.

As an example, in Osaka where I spent the last few days, I had a hotel close to the OCAT, https://osaka-info.jp/en/page/ocat-osaka-air-terminal, and then in the morning caught a bus direct to the terminal at Kansai airport. Buses run every 10 minutes, trains every 7/8 minutes or so, and it's a distance of about  32 miles and takes 36 minutes.

On arriving at Manchester airport it felt like arriving in a 3rd world country, it was scruffy, desolate and the train I needed only runs every couple of hours. Admittedly its longer, about 66 miles, but it takes 2 hours, and on a train packed to the rafters with no facilities. The contrast between the two countries and journey's couldn't have been starker. The lack of investment is a disgrace.

Many thanks for the considered reply SM, and I hope you enjoyed Japan - somewhere I'd love to visit, maybe one day.
 
Yes, we do seem to be singing from the same hymn sheet regarding infrastructure investment; and I know where you're coming from re the airport train terminal and the trains that run from there.  I regularly take the 'Airport Express' from Doncaster, (it sets off from Cleethorpes), to meet friends in Manchester.  Considering it's purported to be an airport express I find it absolutely amazing that a) there is so little space for people to store their suitcases, (minimal storage at the end of a carriage and the overhead shelves are not big enough), that people simply put them in the isles, on the tables or on their knees! and b) to call it an express is simply a joke!
 
The roads East to West are as bad. We went to visit our son who lives just outside Bolton today.  There'd been a serious accident on the 62 which was closed, (quite correctly in the circumstances) in both directions so our only alternative was to go across country - and what a nightmare that was as lorries obviously looking to avoid the 62 had little option but to use roads where are simply not fit for that purpose causing major congestion and very slow traffic - and this on a Sunday!  Fortunately we were in no hurry, but I can imagine anyone trying to get to Manchester Airport by that route would be seriously concerned if they would get there on time.  And those simply stuck on the 62 - no chance!

[roversdude]

Another to speak negatively about Manchester rail link. Had reason to catch train to Manchester Airport for a flight to Eindhoven. I too chuckled at the express title, it’s quicker to get to London, limited seating, nowhere for luggage and the seats didn’t even have drop down trays. To compound this even further the toilets were out of use and due to staffing issues there was no refreshments.
On getting to Manchester Airport and starting to follow signs to T3 they just ended leaving you no idea which way to go

[Axholme Lion]

No it's not my opinion. It's simple economics.


As for your other, very silly comment...I leave many incorrect posts uncommented on. I'm returning to yours because you're like a dog with a badly wrong bone.

I assume you're referring to my earlier post BST?
 
If so, see my post immediately preceding this one and tell me if you believe I'm still incorrect; and importantly, why?

No NNK. I was referring to Hound.

I fully accept that there are different arguments for priorities in infrastructure spending. And equally, I see no reason why we shouldn't build HS2 and HS3.

France, Spain, Japan, Italy and Germany have all built multiple HS lines. The only problem we have in the UK is stunted ambitions after decades of underinvestment.

Indeed, but the priority should be HS3, widening and an extension to the M18 to take it round the South side of Sheffield and on to Stockport to relieve some of the congestion on the M62.  There are many other infrastructure improvements that need to be addressed before trying to shave off a few minutes into London IMO.  At the moment the priority, (and therefore the spend), all seems to be centred on London and the Home Counties furthering the economic divide between the North and the South!

What about the untold damage to the countryside and people's homes?

It happens.
How many square miles of countryside have been destroyed through railways compared to airports and the road network? You don't seem to get too upset about us having them.

Any building development which takes away green space upsets me. It feels as though we are becoming a concrete jungle. I can't understand why all these industrial units get built and stand there empty. There clearly isn't much need for them.

Concrete jungle? Do you have any idea how little is actually built on in the UK?

It depends how you measure it, but less than 10% would pretty accurate.

Well that all depends on how lucky you are and where you can afford to live. Personally I don't want to look out of my window and see other houses and roads.

[selby]

  I have just been reading my local paper, the next village to where I live is Snaith, there is an outline planning application in the paper for 800 houses on land not previously designated as building land, very little local industry, so travel to work would be the norm.
   Very few trains to Leeds, a couple a day from Snaith and expensive, a very poor rural bus service, and country roads that are crumbling under heavy goods vehicles use, Eggborough and Ferrybridge power stations and Kellingley colliery shut, all local places with well paid good jobs gone.
   So moving here what is there, road travel to Leeds, Hull, Doncaster, Selby, Goole, York, possibly Sheffield and Scunthorpe.
   So much for planning to save the planet, turn the local villages into dormitories for the cities near enough to commute to, overstretched local services, hardly any police presence and the doctors facilities and schools already over booked with waiting times. sewage and other services to up grade

[albie]

Looks like the levelling up and Northern Powerhouse agendas have run out of juice;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/22/hs2-eastern-leg-to-leeds-may-be-scrapped-new-leak-claims

Hs2 never made any sense in terms of the transport economy priorities.
Now it just looks like a pointless vanity project, with all the claimed benefits quietly shunted into the sidings.

[drfchound]

Looks like the levelling up and Northern Powerhouse agendas have run out of juice;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/22/hs2-eastern-leg-to-leeds-may-be-scrapped-new-leak-claims

Hs2 never made any sense in terms of the transport economy priorities.
Now it just looks like a pointless vanity project, with all the claimed benefits quietly shunted into the sidings.

I have been against it from the outset.
It isn’t needed.
Covid taught us that people don’t even need to attend meetings.
Zoom and face time saved the day for lots of businesses.
In my opinion HS2 would only mean taking more business from the North to the South East, not the other way.
A massive waste of public money that should be spent in other areas.

[River Don]

  I have just been reading my local paper, the next village to where I live is Snaith, there is an outline planning application in the paper for 800 houses on land not previously designated as building land, very little local industry, so travel to work would be the norm.
   Very few trains to Leeds, a couple a day from Snaith and expensive, a very poor rural bus service, and country roads that are crumbling under heavy goods vehicles use, Eggborough and Ferrybridge power stations and Kellingley colliery shut, all local places with well paid good jobs gone.
   So moving here what is there, road travel to Leeds, Hull, Doncaster, Selby, Goole, York, possibly Sheffield and Scunthorpe.
   So much for planning to save the planet, turn the local villages into dormitories for the cities near enough to commute to, overstretched local services, hardly any police presence and the doctors facilities and schools already over booked with waiting times. sewage and other services to up grade

I notice a lot of these random housing developments. I was in Pocklington the other day, there it was new housing development on the edge of town.

Pocklington is a decent drive from Hull or Scunny or York and further to Leeds or Sheffield. It has a nice railway station but the railway line to Beverley was closed years ago.

The town itself seems reasonably prosperous, though I did notice a lot of charity shops on the high street.

It just looks like there is a tremendous need for housing and each authority has to offer up its bit. So new developments appear randomly all over the country and it all has got to rely a lot on car travel. Add in the fact that the new housing probably is pretty bog standard and won't be particularly efficient and is probably going to be heated by gas...

There doesn't seem to be very much strategic thinking going on.

[selby]

   One of the engineers on the project lives next to me, he says public perception of the project has been allowed to centre on the wrong subject, which is faster public travel from north to south, when the main object is to open the existing network to more freight travel for a full twenty four hours a day.

[Donnywolf]

So under levelling up we will build HS2 for a huge amount

I have no idea of the cost but let's say (for my story) it's 10 billion quid

5 years or so later with not a spade in the ground anywhere the cost has spiralled to double that

A further 2 years it's gone up to 25 billion and so the Govt decide to axe a third of the proposed network BUT what happens to the money

I'm guessing that we get 2/3 rds of the original system but it still costs all of the 25 billion

Bargain ? Not !