Parliament to be prorogued

[wilts rover]

Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?

As has been said many times the 2016 referendum wasn't legally binding. So how about having a legally binding one?

First and only. Whoever and whatever outcome wins, it wins, and parliament HAS to enact it.

[hoolahoop]

Idm let’s say they have another referendum and remain wins shall we have 1 2 3 more?

As has been said many times the 2016 referendum wasn't legally binding. So how about having a legally binding one?

First and only. Whoever and whatever outcome wins, it wins, and parliament HAS to enact it.

The argument against that very sensible proposal is always " but we had a democratic vote in 2016 " without any recognition at all that there were many many irregularities about that vote and how it was won.

This is one game of poker where we have gone all in against 2/3 opponents with a hand of only Ace high but the A/K♡ showing face up to the table - a bluff that will and would never have worked

[Bentley Bullet]

Sensible? If potential countrywide outbreaks of violence and destruction is a sensible prospect, followed by democracy never being taken seriously again, then you are right Hoolahoop.

[DonnyOsmond]

Sensible? If potential countrywide outbreaks of violence and destruction is a sensible prospect, followed by democracy never being taken seriously again, then you are right Hoolahoop.

Aren't both points of that going to happen either way?

[Bentley Bullet]

I don't know, but I suspect a second referendum that overturns the first would have far, far greater consequences of unrest than is going on now.

[IDM]

I’m not on about multiple votes, just give the people the chance to vote on something which is clear what the outcomes mean..

That doesn’t mean I don’t accept the referendum result, but the government and Parliament cannot allow the disaster of no deal..

People bang on about the 17.4 million who voted leave, but what about the 16 odd million who voted remain and the 10 million or so who didn’t vote, plus the new eligible voters.?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Aye. Perfectly reasonable to expect violence as a response to a sensible, clear, unambiguous democratic vote.

[Bentley Bullet]

I’m not on about multiple votes, just give the people the chance to vote on something which is clear what the outcomes mean..

That doesn’t mean I don’t accept the referendum result, but the government and Parliament cannot allow the disaster of no deal..

People bang on about the 17.4 million who voted leave, but what about the 16 odd million who voted remain and the 10 million or so who didn’t vote, plus the new eligible voters.?

Nobody knows what the outcome of leaving will be. We haven't left yet!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Give up IDM. It's like a swamp. Doesn't matter what you try to discuss sensibly, you'll get dragged under by responses like that.

This is what happens when folk put not losing an argument above discussing something rationally.

[Bentley Bullet]

Aye. Perfectly reasonable to expect violence as a response to a sensible, clear, unambiguous democratic vote.

It was perfectly reasonable to expect a democratic vote to be carried out..........

[BillyStubbsTears]

And it WOULD have been if it hadn't been treated as another battle in the interminable Tory party civil war.

Don't bother responding. I KNOW your response will be to say it's the fault of Remainers for not doing what they were told. I'll save you the typing.

[Bentley Bullet]

So that's your latest excuse for a revote, is it!

[Filo]

The shit is really hitting the fan now, Gove has not ruled out ignoring legislation passed by Parliament, and the PM is seeking to de select Tories that vote against the Government and Reward those that vote with them. We are now entering a full blown dictatorship

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filo.

I DID tell you before the vote in 2016 that this is where we'd end up. It was only ever about putting Johnson in No 10.

[IDM]

The shit is really hitting the fan now, Gove has not ruled out ignoring legislation passed by Parliament, and the PM is seeking to de select Tories that vote against the Government and Reward those that vote with them. We are now entering a full blown dictatorship

Smacks of 1933..

[IDM]

I’m not on about multiple votes, just give the people the chance to vote on something which is clear what the outcomes mean..

That doesn’t mean I don’t accept the referendum result, but the government and Parliament cannot allow the disaster of no deal..

People bang on about the 17.4 million who voted leave, but what about the 16 odd million who voted remain and the 10 million or so who didn’t vote, plus the new eligible voters.?

Nobody knows what the outcome of leaving will be. We haven't left yet!

Sorry but I prefer to know what I am voting for, does that make sense to you.?

With the Brexit referendum, with the remain choice, that was about staying where we are ie that was something defined.

Apart from the headline of being out of the EU, no one knew what leave would mean in practice so folks would be voting for uncertainty..

Stability vs uncertainty..  fuelled by headlines and misinformation..

I always maintain that had leave been defined more clearly, with a minimum set of requirements and conditions set out, the leave majority may have been bigger..

But hey, we’re going round in circles and looking to crash out with no deal just to prove a point..

[BillyStubbsTears]

IDM

You're penultimate paragraph.

THAT is the thing I never get about the Leave supporters. What on earth do they have to fear from a confirmatory vote on a specific form of Brexit? Especially if there are Draconian penalties on anyone using foreign money to influence the vote?

Why are they so against that? And why do they see only bad faith in anyone who suggests that?

I honestly don't understand it.

[hoolahoop]

My God could things get worse, 4 years ago we were all gently going about our business - yes we had major worries about the effects of a period of prolonged austerity but we could bloody sleep at night !

We have moved to a point where the executive in this country is allowing some nutter to pull all the strings as we hurtle on and into a period of full blown dictatorship.
This is utter madness yet still some would defend the undemocratic exercise that took place in 2016 !

This is REALLY what it was all about  Not Parliamentary sovereignty but as far away from that as it is possible to go nigh on dictatorship.

Still some defend this arguing about the "17.4, the will of the people"  - it isn't about any of that this is about Far Right supremacy, a cheap way to control people, a way to use people, it's a game to them and a way to amass fortunes on the backs of your labour.
It isn't liberating for our country or it's people - it's the polar opposite and YET some STILL encourage them with their support. 

[Filo]

Filo.

I DID tell you before the vote in 2016 that this is where we'd end up. It was only ever about putting Johnson in No 10.

Yes, I got it wrong when I voted to leave, I’m not ashamed to admit that and would now like the chance to change my mind

[BillyStubbsTears]

No probs Filo. Doesn't give me any pleasure. I wish I'd been wrong.

Thing is now, you can only make sense of what's going on if you realise that EVERYTHING about Brexit is about confirming Johnson's position.

Here's my prediction for this week.

1) MPs will take control of the process Mon/Tues and block No Deal.

2) Javid will announce his spending review plans on Weds. He'll have found the magic money tree and he'll shower cash throughout the country. Hound and BB will be appalled because we can't afford to do that. I'm sure they'll tell us.

3) On Thursday PM Cummings (sorry: easy mistake to make) Johnson will announce a General Election. He will frame it as him being the honest servant of the Will of the People, who has been thwarted by undemocratic MPs. He'll have a purge of the Tory party so that they only put up No Deal Death Cult candidates. And he'll probably win.

[Filo]

No probs Filo. Doesn't give me any pleasure. I wish I'd been wrong.

Thing is now, you can only make sense of what's going on if you realise that EVERYTHING about Brexit is about confirming Johnson's position.

Here's my prediction for this week.

1) MPs will take control of the process Mon/Tues and block No Deal.

2) Javid will announce his spending review plans on Weds. He'll have found the magic money tree and he'll shower cash throughout the country. Hound and BB will be appalled because we can't afford to do that. I'm sure they'll tell us.

3) On Thursday PM Cummings (sorry: easy mistake to make) Johnson will announce a General Election. He will frame it as him being the honest servant of the Will of the People, who has been thwarted by undemocratic MPs. He'll have a purge of the Tory party so that they only put up No Deal Death Cult candidates. And he'll probably win.

Your first point depends on if enough Tories have any b*llocks or principles

[BillyStubbsTears]

They will. Somewhere between one and two dozen of them.

Really big question is what Corbyn does in response to point 3.

Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, dissolving Parliament requires 2/3rds of MPs to vote for that. Which means Labour has to vote for it if it's going to happen.

But if Johnson calls a GE, it will deliberately be for after 31 Oct, so that it's impossible to stop No Deal.

Big choice for Corbyn there. What's more important? The GE he craves or stopping No Deal?

By the way Hound. Are you reading? That's me questioning the commitment of the leader of the Labour Party to the policy that I want. Got that?

[MachoMadness]

Filo.

I DID tell you before the vote in 2016 that this is where we'd end up. It was only ever about putting Johnson in No 10.

Yes, I got it wrong when I voted to leave, I’m not ashamed to admit that and would now like the chance to change my mind

Fair play. Takes some stones to admit that publicly.

[wilts rover]

I am going with you there Billy but you have forgotten one major point.

If Johnson calls an election Corbyn can agree to back it with an amendement such as ... providing the government extends the Article 50 leaving date with the EU to 31st December.

If Johnson backs that - Corbyn will win the election. If he doesn't he will run an government that is unable to govern.

[hoolahoop]

Filo.

I DID tell you before the vote in 2016 that this is where we'd end up. It was only ever about putting Johnson in No 10.

Yes, I got it wrong when I voted to leave, I’m not ashamed to admit that and would now like the chance to change my mind

We have had our differences in the past Filo but I respect the way you have had the balls to admit on here that you got it wrong. Many got it wrong tragically but that was so easy given the spin and mis- direction these fraudsters used over decades . Tbf I too was close to putting my X in the Leave box if for nothing else but patriotic reasons.

Up until the Referendum I always , within reason,trusted our leaders . Summat DIDN'T smell right about this one though

[albie]

BST,

"Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, dissolving Parliament requires 2/3rds of MPs to vote for that. Which means Labour has to vote for it if it's going to happen."

Well, the first thing I would do is to repeal the Fixed Term Parliament Act.....it is a complete dogs dinner and an unwanted complication.

Do that and the cards fall differently. This is as well as trying to pass legislation to prevent no deal.

I would be surprised if Cummings chooses to call an election on Thursday.
It is possible, but difficult to call until the legislation route is resolved.

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm with you on the FTPA Albie, but your and my wish to see it gone are irrelevant to the matter in hand.

[scawsby steve]

Sensible? If potential countrywide outbreaks of violence and destruction is a sensible prospect, followed by democracy never being taken seriously again, then you are right Hoolahoop.

Yeah BB, but according to some of the past sneering on here, it'll only be a few pensioners with zimmer frames, and half a dozen Farage supporters in a pub in Harrogate.

Let's just hope they don't have to witness the real situation.

[Glyn_Wigley]

They will. Somewhere between one and two dozen of them.

Really big question is what Corbyn does in response to point 3.

Under the Fixed Term Parliament Act, dissolving Parliament requires 2/3rds of MPs to vote for that. Which means Labour has to vote for it if it's going to happen.

But if Johnson calls a GE, it will deliberately be for after 31 Oct, so that it's impossible to stop No Deal.

Big choice for Corbyn there. What's more important? The GE he craves or stopping No Deal?

By the way Hound. Are you reading? That's me questioning the commitment of the leader of the Labour Party to the policy that I want. Got that?

If he's any sense, Corbyn should threaten that Labour will abstain on a vote for a GE unless Brexit is postponed until after said GE. And if Brexit happens before any GE happens, he should carry on abstaining until all the Brexit fallout sticks to Boris.

[BillyStubbsTears]

SS

A long, long time ago, this place used to be full of robust humour. Given and taken. No grudges.

It's changed out of all recognition over the past few years. Seems to be full of snowflakes these days.