Parliament to be prorogued

[Bentley Bullet]

Mr Wiggerley, you are a laughing stock. You have excelled yourself tonight, and believe me, that takes some doing!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Mr Wiggerley, you are a laughing stock. You have excelled yourself tonight, and believe me, that takes some doing!

Wriggle, wriggle.

[Bentley Bullet]

Eeh lad, you're desperate, aren't you!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Even more desperate wriggle, wriggle!

[Bentley Bullet]

Mr Wiggeley, if you want the last word you've got to be a bit smarter than that. You're rather embarrassing yourself.

[IDM]

Was there a point to this thread somewhere.?

[albie]

Was there a point to this thread somewhere.?

Yes, a very important one.

Perhaps the moderators need to move certain posters back into a safe playpen.
Private messages might be a better way to conduct a childish spat.

[Bentley Bullet]

I do apologise. I should have risen above it. Kids eh!

[Donnywolf]

I have fear for our country because I doubt we'll ever have democracy as we've known it again.

Me too. This EU saga (well past a saga really) has been so devisive and continues that way

MPs on both sides dont answer questions or lie. It was ever thus though I suppose

Personally however I am fed up to the back teeth (well would be if I had any) and imo there has NEVER been anything like this - a complete s*** storm way way WAY beyond anything I can ever remember

... and you are right I dont think either that we will ever see democracy as we have known it ever again. It has changed and perhaps will have changed forever if / whe we ever get through this "mess"

One thing for sure as each Party took office in the past they could would and DID blame the previous Party for all the ills they inherited and by god they are going to have a field day for decades if :

a) we leave the EU eventually or

b) if we stay in the EU eventually

I could write their "excuses" for 20 years whichever way we end up going

[Ldr]

I think people voted due to a variety of reasons and pulling them to bits over it to make yourself feel superior is childish. I have a differing opinion to BST, Glyn etc but enjoy having a debate with them and banter but hope I am always respectful. The levels some of you have descended to in this thread is risible. Wolfie, I understand why you keep bringing 75 in to this but I think its disingenuous and a valid point at the same time. If we still had an EEC as in 75 I think the 2016 would have never taken place. Unfortunately the EU is a massively different beast to the EEC.

[wing commander]

    The problem is Ldr that as this situation goes on discussions are getting more and more nasty and personal,debate has slowed down and insults start taking over...On this board most are Labour remainers and a differing opinion is met with a gang up approach by some..

   However in the interests of balance I also frequent a board which is the opposite,mainly Tory leavers and exactly the same thing has happened there,what started off as debate has also turned into open hostility towards people with a differing opinion...

    This weekend we have had marches organised by momentum against the parliament being Prorogued in the defence of democracy and that's everybodys right..Yet we've seen people with a opposite view being called Nazi scum,pushed off the streets,told they need gassing,shot  etc etc...I find that all a bit strange from a group that is suddenly showing all the ingredients of the thing it accuses it's opponent of...Facism....

   The whole thing is getting nastier and nastier from both sides sadly..

[BillyStubbsTears]

So I see Johnson was supposed to be meeting with Tory rebels today. They wanted clear and unambiguous evidence that he was genuinely trying to negotiate a deal with Brussels.

He's cancelled the meeting and announced that they will be booted out of the party unless they support him.

Meanwhile, the EU has said that in the 6 weeks since he became PM, Johnson has given no indication of what he would want in a new deal.

Does ANYONE still believe this charade that he's genuinely trying to negotiate with the EU?

[Ldr]

So I see Johnson was supposed to be meeting with Tory rebels today. They wanted clear and unambiguous evidence that he was genuinely trying to negotiate a deal with Brussels.

He's cancelled the meeting and announced that they will be booted out of the party unless they support him.

Meanwhile, the EU has said that in the 6 weeks since he became PM, Johnson has given no indication of what he would want in a new deal.

Does ANYONE still believe this charade that he's genuinely trying to negotiate with the EU?

Probs the same number who believe the protests this weekend were about democracy

[BillyStubbsTears]

Were you at one of those protests Ldr?

Just wondering how you form your opinion.

[Ldr]

Not participating BST but happened to walk past the one in Newcastle. Pro EU demo, nothing else

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

There were certainly some leave voters interviewed on the news, so I wouldn't say it entirely accurate, but the same report did state the vast majority appeared to be pro EU.

[Ldr]

It's certainly morally if not legally wrong, as is disregarding the referendum. Unfortunately I think people are too entrenched in positions right and wrong are irrelevant to them

[Bentley Bullet]

Must you have actually been present at an event to comment on it?

[Ldr]

No BB but I think it's a fair question from BST as online and media can distort facts

[BillyStubbsTears]

Not participating BST but happened to walk past the one in Newcastle. Pro EU demo, nothing else

That wasn't the theme of the one in Sheffield. The key speakers ALL said that Brexit is secondary to the undermining of democracy.

[Bentley Bullet]

No BB but I think it's a fair question from BST as online and media can distort facts

If that's the case, even if you were there you would have to ask each individual in order to form an opinion to justify your case to BST.

[Ldr]

Not participating BST but happened to walk past the one in Newcastle. Pro EU demo, nothing else

That wasn't the theme of the one in Sheffield. The key speakers ALL said that Brexit is secondary to the undermining of democracy.

Curious BST, was any mention of parliament treating the voters of the UK with contempt by disregarding their view expressed in the referendum? I have no issue if a constituency mp in a remain area votes to frustrate Brexit but those in leave areas doing so is wrong

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr.
I for one am not disregarding the 2016 referendum.

I am, however, consistently pointing out the problems with that Referendum, from the stupidly simplistic question, through the demonstrable lies and deception that the Leave case was based on, to the ongoing court criminal cases about funding and illegal social media profiling.

I've not heard anyone sensibly address any of those points.

In that context, it is nonsense to see the 2016 vote as sacrosanct.

I'd like to see it repeated with those three issues properly addressed. As I've been saying for months. I fail to see how anyone can consider that undemocratic.

[Bentley Bullet]

So you were one of those present that wants another referendum for a start!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr.

I appreciate your stance, but here's the bit where I run into a brick wall.

May's deal was already at the far end of abruptness of break with the EU that was discussed during the 2016 Ref campaign.

Johnson and the ERG voted it down because it wasn't a hard enough Brexit.

If this was REALLY about getting us out of the EU, we could have been out in March. By voting against May's deal, Johnson, Raab, Patel, Rees-Mogg and the rest of them lost any moral authority to complain about MPs blocking Brexit.

What that group is now doing is a historically unprecedented closure of Parliament, to enable them to ram through a No Deal Brexit that was never even discussed as a remote possibility in 2016.

It really takes some mental gymnastics to accuse those who are against this of being anti-democratic.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Ldr.
I for one am not disregarding the 2016 referendum.

I am, however, consistently pointing out the problems with that Referendum, from the stupidly simplistic question, through the demonstrable lies and deception that the Leave case was based on, to the ongoing court criminal cases about funding and illegal social media profiling.

I've not heard anyone sensibly address any of those points.

In that context, it is nonsense to see the 2016 vote as sacrosanct.

I'd like to see it repeated with those three issues properly addressed. As I've been saying for months. I fail to see how anyone can consider that undemocratic.

Take your points on board and agree with some.

Question to you back, what message does it send that a referendum was done, all parties agreed to abide by it, all stood for a GE stating we would leave, continued to state that and yet still, it doesn't happen.

As a side note, I wonder if those who voted down May's deal think it was a good move, particularly those in the opposition...  If they really wanted to leave with a deal was it so bad?

Furthermore, why is there talk labour won't now back an election having called for it for years, what are they scared of if they think their message is correct?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP.

I've commented enough on what I think about Tory party behaviour over Brexit. As I've said, the 2016 vote was never about Brexit. It was about who rules the Tory party. See it in those terms, and the ERG's refusal to honour their manifesto in March makes perfect sense.

On the Labour side, you need to know what their manifesto said in 2017. It said they respected the 2016 result, but would not support a Brexit which left us economically weaker.

Corbyn argued strongly for us to Leave, starting from 7am on the day after the Ref. But he was totally excluded from negotiations on Brexit by May. The resulting deal could not possibly be supported by Labour because it gave no legal assurances about workers' rights and environmental controls. Certainly Labour cannot possibly support No Deal.

If May had had an inclusive approach to interpreting Brexit in 2017,we'd be out by now. If the ERG had supported the deal that May unilaterally came up with,we'd be out by now. They are the ones who hold responsibility for this f**k up.

On the GE, the reason Labour cannot support one now, us that if we DO call a GE, we'll be leaving with No Deal, because there will be no Parliamentary time to stop it. That trumps everything

[Ldr]

Ldr.

I appreciate your stance, but here's the bit where I run into a brick wall.

May's deal was already at the far end of abruptness of break with the EU that was discussed during the 2016 Ref campaign.

Johnson and the ERG voted it down because it wasn't a hard enough Brexit.

If this was REALLY about getting us out of the EU, we could have been out in March. By voting against May's deal, Johnson, Raab, Patel, Rees-Mogg and the rest of them lost any moral authority to complain about MPs blocking Brexit.

What that group is now doing is a historically unprecedented closure of Parliament, to enable them to ram through a No Deal Brexit that was never even discussed as a remote possibility in 2016.

It really takes some mental gymnastics to accuse those who are against this of being anti-democratic.

Not 100% unprecedented, sure Major did it too....

[wing commander]

   I watched some of the demonstrations on the news and with respect i do take issue with the fact this is solely about Democracy with regards
parliament.

  If we are all honest, we all know that if this would have happened without Brexit as the backdrop, their wouldn't have been the demonstrations we have seen this weekend.

  Also on the clips i've seen both on the news and the rather sad ones on social media some of the placards on display were about stopping brexit rather than parliament being prorogued..

  As for the GE,the sole reason labour have remained true to form by flip flopping their policy is they know if they dont stop coming out without a deal they cant win..Again the latest Polls show the Torys and BJ increasing their lead over Labour by a ever increasing margin..

  The Turkeys wont vote for xmas,they need to stop it to split the vote.If that no deal goes through the Brexit Party wont stand against the Tory's and Labour simply need them too to stand any chance of winning.And lets face it thats what it's all about for these party's..Manouvering themselves to pick up the pieces..

[BillyStubbsTears]

Ldr.

No PM has EVER closed down Parliament to prevent the House of Commons voting on a matter of vital national interest. That is why it is historically unprecedented.

This is WAY bigger than Brexit. It's about whether our democratic systems actually operate or not. You've got senior cabinet ministers openly discussing that they might just ignore Parliamentary votes. Do you not appreciate how dangerous that is?