Parliament to be prorogued

[idler]

Nigel Farage stated on TV that if we voted to remain he would be straight back to pushing another leave campaign.
In three years there has been no credible policy as regarding sorting out a leave strategy. The day after the result spoke volumes about the main figures on the leve side. The present leave approach seems to be chop the head off to cure the headache.
I also did vote leave in the referendum but what a shambles. There seems no one capable of negotiating anything.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Nigel Farage stated on TV that if we voted to remain he would be straight back to pushing another leave campaign.
In three years there has been no credible policy as regarding sorting out a leave strategy. The day after the result spoke volumes about the main figures on the leve side. The present leave approach seems to be chop the head off to cure the headache.
I also did vote leave in the referendum but what a shambles. There seems no one capable of negotiating anything.

Great. The longer he keeps splitting the Tory vote the better.

[BigH]

and what 'cheating' would that be ? on an advisory referendum ?

For our Future's Sake‏Verified account @FFSake_ 3h3 hours ago
 
"We know the majority of Labour voters support a #PeoplesVote, & I think Labour just need to make sure that we don't fall into these traps set by Boris Johnson, & we don't end up with No Deal."

It’s only an advisory referendum because remain lost. Didn’t our remain supporting Government advise the country they’d deliver the result of the referendum??

No, it was an advisory referendum because the question that was asked was:

Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?

Note not 'must', not 'under any circumstances', not by a date certain...

[BillyStubbsTears]

It was an advisory referendum because we have a representative democracy, with Parliament sovereign, not a plebiscitary democracy. You can complain as much as you want but that is a fact.

It's also a fact that no Govt in this country has the ability to require a later Govt to do or not do anything. Cameron should never have said that the Govt would implement the result of the Ref because he couldn't guarantee that under our Constitution. That's just one of the many things he shouldn't have done. If he'd never gone into f**king politics, we'd not be in this mess now.

But anyway, just try a little thought experiment about representative and plebiscitary democratic positions.

Let's assume Country A has a referendum and the result is that the people decide they want to do something.

Now, in looking at how to implement that thing, the Govt of Country A finds a massive problem would result, and would lead to great economic and social problems in part of country A. No one talked about that at the time of the Referendum. (Well, actually, a few did, but they were shouted down and called Project Fear mongers.) So the Referendum took place in blithe ignorance of this big problem.

What should the Govt do? Should they mimic a dalek voice and say "The People have spoken. There. Must. Be. No. Deviation."?

Or would you expect the Govt to treat the Referendum as flawed, because the decision was made in the absence of a key bit of understanding.

What do you think?

[Bentley Bullet]

It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.

[IDM]

That’s b*llocks BB and you know it..

How can the voters be responsible for that, regardless of their opinion.?

It is the MPs and governments collectively who have not delivered the referendum result - who have not ratified a deal with the EU or generated a better one than May did and agreed that with the EU..

The only people who can actually do anything about Brexit, whether we agree with the process or outcomes or not, are those MPs and NOT the members of the public..

[DonnyOsmond]

It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.

How? We're still leaving the EU, you weirdo.

[Bentley Bullet]

IDM, if it wasn't for the support of bad loser Remoaners parliament would have found it much harder to pursue their undemocratic process of stopping Brexit. They wouldn't have been able to say they were representing anyone for a start.

[Bentley Bullet]

It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.

How? We're still leaving the EU, you weirdo.

You been drinking?

[i_ateallthepies]

BB, as explained in post 513 above, in our democracy parliament is sovereign.  So the unpalatable fact (for you) is that your faux bluster about democracy is once again shown to be just bollox.

[SydneyRover]

It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.

The wheels on the bus go round and round ....................................

[IDM]

IDM, if it wasn't for the support of bad loser Remoaners parliament would have found it much harder to pursue their undemocratic process of stopping Brexit. They wouldn't have been able to say they were representing anyone for a start.

BB the electorate voted to leave - just - but to leave nonetheless. misguided and lacking in clarity but leave nonetheless.

This mandated our parliament to manage brexit.  Yes they have managed it badly, but surely they have the right to make sure brexit works for the best interests of the country.?

It is wholly illogical to leave the EU with no deal as there are so many links to re arrange..

This isn’t now about leave or remain, it’s about leaving sensibly..

Had the politicians managed his better we could have left with an agreed deal in March.

I would prefer we remain in the EU for personal reasons, but if we are leaving, let’s do it properly.?

You can understand that can’t you, without resorting to a points scoring forum response.?

[Bentley Bullet]

If we must leave on the EU's terms then so be it, but I suspect the process will continue to be hampered by parliament 'on behalf of' the citizens that want to remain.

[Axholme Lion]

If we must leave on the EU's terms then so be it, but I suspect the process will continue to be hampered by parliament 'on behalf of' the citizens that want to remain.

Once again you are correct but you are wasting your time on this forum.
There are none as blind as those that will not see.

[BillyStubbsTears]

IDM

The first substantive decision after the Referendum was May, in January 2017, unilaterally deciding how to interpret Brexit.

Remember that Leave won by 3.8%. Now imagine a scale of 0-10 for the different types of Brexit that we might have gone for, where No Deal is 10 and Remain is 0.

You might think that a PM wanting to most fairly represent the outcome of such a close result would have gone for something at, may 2-3. Something like a Norway deal.

Nope. She decided that Brexit meant leaving the CU, the SM, the ECJ and using the rights of EU citizens in the UK as bargaining tools. That was at about 7-8.

She did this to cement her position in the Tory party.

She didn't include ANYONE outside the Tory party in her decision.

From that moment on, anyone who suggests that anyone outside May and the Tory party bears responsibility for the lack of national unity on Brexit that we now have, doesn't have the right to be taken seriously. Because they are wilfully ignoring this context.

What they are effectively saying is that we should basically shrug our shoulders and say "Yep. Whatever you say Brexit is, we will support it."

[IDM]

If we must leave on the EU's terms then so be it, but I suspect the process will continue to be hampered by parliament 'on behalf of' the citizens that want to remain.

Once again you are correct but you are wasting your time on this forum.
There are none as blind as those that will not see.

Why don’t you actually engage in properly thought out debate, rather than the kind of response above.?  There’s no wonder folks don’t take you seriously..

[Axholme Lion]

If we must leave on the EU's terms then so be it, but I suspect the process will continue to be hampered by parliament 'on behalf of' the citizens that want to remain.

Once again you are correct but you are wasting your time on this forum.
There are none as blind as those that will not see.

Why don’t you actually engage in properly thought out debate, rather than the kind of response above.?  There’s no wonder folks don’t take you seriously..

They don't take me serious because i'm not serious.

[DonnyOsmond]

It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.

How? We're still leaving the EU, you weirdo.

You been drinking?

No but it seems you have for the last 3 years.

[Bentley Bullet]

I've got an excuse if I'm wrong then. What's yours?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Oh aye. I forgot to add..

The EU offered us a deal at about 5-6. Johnson and the ERG rejected that as not hard enough.

Then Johnson voted for it.

Then he rejected it and says he wants something at 9 or 10.

And Farage...

He campaigned saying wouldn't it be great if we were like Norway. 2-3. Now he says anything less than 10 is a betrayal.

And some folk say it's the Remainers' fault...

[Glyn_Wigley]

It is the end of democracy as we've known it and people like YOU are responsible for it.

You like a youtube clip, so just for you...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laCv8nGq1Co

[BigH]

So with proroguing about to go nowhere, yer man is talking about wilfully breaking the law.

Anyone know the sentence for doing this i.e. gross misconduct in public office. (World King sometimes forgets that he is a public servant). Up to life imprisonment.

Way to go Boris!

[Filo]

Treason?

[Tarkovsky_Mikluzhkin]

I think if Boris broke the law he would be sentenced to smirking through 10 Newsnight interviews followed by everyone in the country ruffling his hair and calling him "a cheeky little chappie".

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

He cant break the law and wont.  He said in a speech just this week he will not do that.  If he does he is toast.  The rhetoric is part of his campaign.

[SydneyRover]

He cant break the law and wont.  He said in a speech just this week he will not do that.  If he does he is toast.  The rhetoric is part of his campaign.

I agree bfyp, he's a chinless wonder and spineless so he's not going to martyr himself for zero nett personal gain.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Strictly speaking, he HAS already broken the law, when he conspired to have that journalist assaulted.

But hey. This is 2019 and we no longer seem to give a shite about stuff like that.

[SydneyRover]

Questions being asked how Cummings being found in contempt of parliament is given a security pass to westminster. Another question is why that same person came be paid from the the public purse when in contempt?

''Doughty said last night: “Serious questions must be answered as to how an individual found in contempt of parliament, and over whom other allegations hang unanswered and unresolved, can be wandering around the parliamentary estate at will''

“Of equal importance the public have the right to know whether such an individual, at the heart of government, with access to the PM and potentially highly confidential papers and communications – has received the appropriate level of security clearance.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/08/call-to-cancel-dominic-cummings-commons-security-pass

[DonnyOsmond]

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1169679219259006976?s=19

Nice to see Farage has give an accurate representation of the Waterdale. 

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting that the french again suggesting they do not want to agree to a delay.  Also some talk of offering a different position on northern Ireland which the EU may accept. Essentially boris no longer needs the DUP hence it's less important to him....