The Voice Of Reason

[IDM]

I think the idea is to agree a deal with the EU, then put it to the people to agree.? Isn’t that what labour want.?

[Axholme Lion]

For the only time in my life that I can remember in 2016  I was given a chance to vote on something which really meant something to me. I cast my vote fully expecting to lose the referendum, but at least I would have had a chance to have my say. I could not believe my ears when I trudged down stairs in the morning and switched on the radio and found that we had won! Something that really mattered to me that I had had an effect on had come true. However it did not take long for the objections and all the rest of the sour grapes to come to pass. I can honestly say that had Leave lost I would have been miffed and had a moan about it for a few days and then looked forwards to who we were playing on Saturday. All that has followed since has been a shambolic display of self-interest, deceit and political game playing ON BOTH SIDES. At the beginning of this escapade I would have described myself as a Conservative voter, but I have voted for various other parties in the past depending upon their policies at the time. We were told our vote would count and whatever the result it would be honoured. This has clearly been proved not to be the case and the majority of those in parliament hold ordinary working people like myself in contempt. We are uneducated, little Englanders whose opinion is unworthy. All we are good for is paying taxes. Go to work, shut up and carry on! I know at times I put some outrageous stuff on here, but most of it is just a wind up. All that I have come to realise is that my vote is worthless so in future I might as well vote for a more extreme party if it makes no difference in any case.
PS. I hope this post from hasn’t been too sensible for you all. 

[Bentley Bullet]

I think the idea is to agree a deal with the EU, then put it to the people to agree.? Isn’t that what labour want.?

What Labour wants is anyone's guess, but I think the idea of agreeing on a deal with the EU then putting it to the people is what May and Boris were trying to do!

[IDM]

I think the idea is to agree a deal with the EU, then put it to the people to agree.? Isn’t that what labour want.?

What Labour wants is anyone's guess, but I think the idea of agreeing on a deal with the EU then putting it to the people is what May and Boris were trying to do!

May put her deal to Parliament only.  Johnson hasn’t presented a deal yet..

[IDM]

For the only time in my life that I can remember in 2016  I was given a chance to vote on something which really meant something to me. I cast my vote fully expecting to lose the referendum, but at least I would have had a chance to have my say. I could not believe my ears when I trudged down stairs in the morning and switched on the radio and found that we had won! Something that really mattered to me that I had had an effect on had come true. However it did not take long for the objections and all the rest of the sour grapes to come to pass. I can honestly say that had Leave lost I would have been miffed and had a moan about it for a few days and then looked forwards to who we were playing on Saturday. All that has followed since has been a shambolic display of self-interest, deceit and political game playing ON BOTH SIDES. At the beginning of this escapade I would have described myself as a Conservative voter, but I have voted for various other parties in the past depending upon their policies at the time. We were told our vote would count and whatever the result it would be honoured. This has clearly been proved not to be the case and the majority of those in parliament hold ordinary working people like myself in contempt. We are uneducated, little Englanders whose opinion is unworthy. All we are good for is paying taxes. Go to work, shut up and carry on! I know at times I put some outrageous stuff on here, but most of it is just a wind up. All that I have come to realise is that my vote is worthless so in future I might as well vote for a more extreme party if it makes no difference in any case.
PS. I hope this post from hasn’t been too sensible for you all. 

I understand your post completely.. I don’t necessarily agree with everything but you do make sense.

I believe, and I may be wrong, that the Parliament is lookng to achieve a deal with the EU but defaulting to delay rather than go with no deal.

I think they are trying to honour the referendum in the first instance.

[Bentley Bullet]

I think the idea is to agree a deal with the EU, then put it to the people to agree.? Isn’t that what labour want.?

What Labour wants is anyone's guess, but I think the idea of agreeing on a deal with the EU then putting it to the people is what May and Boris were trying to do!

May put her deal to Parliament only.  Johnson hasn’t presented a deal yet..

Apologies, I was referring to Parliament when I said the people.

[IDM]

No worries BB.  But Johnson still hasn’t got a deal yet to put to Parliament.  I can’t comment on the negotiations as they aren’t public, but what Johnson appears to have been doing is trashing parliamentary procedures to get a no deal.

If he does get an acceptable deal in the coming weeks, all well and good.  I can’t say I am holding my breath in anticipation though..

[Bentley Bullet]

 Obviously it is only a prediction but I think he will. I also think he would have got a better deal with the option of walking away.

[IDM]

I think Johnson will struggle with credibility to be honest, and sadly all of his own doing.

[Iberian Red]

The irony of the title to the OP!
He's surpassed his high standard of talking absolute shite,and taken it to a whole new level.
Well done BB

[Not Now Kato]

Pancho, how can you have a reasoned debate when the big difference between Leavers and Remainers regarding all the predicted doom and gloom is Leavers hope they're wrong, and Remainers hope they're right.

I think you're quite wrong there BB, every Remainer I know believes what the experts are predicting, and common sense would indicate that they, (the experts), are most likely correct; but every one of those I know hopes, (however unlikely), that they will be proved wrong when we eventually leave.
 

[Axholme Lion]

I find it depressing and rather sad that so much of the Brexit debate on here descends so quickly into petty bickering, mud-slinging, and personal insults.

Decent, sensible, reasoned discussion is, to a large extent, long gone.

I totally agree.

[Bentley Bullet]

Pancho, how can you have a reasoned debate when the big difference between Leavers and Remainers regarding all the predicted doom and gloom is Leavers hope they're wrong, and Remainers hope they're right.

I think you're quite wrong there BB, every Leaver I know believes what the experts are predicting, and common sense would indicate that they, (the experts), are most likely correct; but every one of those I know hopes, (however unlikely), that they will be proved wrong when we eventually leave.
 

So Leavers hope they're wrong? That's what I said!

[Not Now Kato]

If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?

The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
 
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level.  So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
 
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
 
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole.  But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
 
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?

[Not Now Kato]

Pancho, how can you have a reasoned debate when the big difference between Leavers and Remainers regarding all the predicted doom and gloom is Leavers hope they're wrong, and Remainers hope they're right.

I think you're quite wrong there BB, every Leaver I know believes what the experts are predicting, and common sense would indicate that they, (the experts), are most likely correct; but every one of those I know hopes, (however unlikely), that they will be proved wrong when we eventually leave.
 

So Leavers hope they're wrong? That's what I said!

My apologies BB, it should have read every Remainer I know believes what the experts are predicting, and common sense would indicate that they, (the experts), are most likely correct; but every one of those I know hopes, (however unlikely), that they will be proved wrong when we eventually leave.
 
But I think you knew that really 
 
I'll amend my original post accordingly.

[Bentley Bullet]

No worries NNK. Nobody is inflammable.

[Not Now Kato]

No worries NNK. Nobody is inflammable.

And here I was thinking I was being a light to the gentiles   

[Axholme Lion]

If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?

The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
 
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level.  So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
 
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
 
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole.  But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
 
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?

When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.

[Not Now Kato]

If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?

The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
 
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level.  So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
 
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
 
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole.  But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
 
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?

When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.

So you believe that Scotland should no longer be part of the UK?  Nor Wales?  Nor Northern Ireland?  All independent nations?
 
You voted knowing England would be worse off outside of the EU?
 
You voted leave knowing the issue that a border would be needed between Ireland and NI? And the problems that would cause?
 
And you REALLY believe that experts are full of crap?
 
With logic like yours no wonder the UK is in the state it is right now.
 
Tell me, how did you form your long held personal views?

[Axholme Lion]

If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?

The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
 
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level.  So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
 
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
 
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole.  But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
 
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?

When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.

So you believe that Scotland should no longer be part of the UK?  Nor Wales?  Nor Northern Ireland?  All independent nations?
 
You voted knowing England would be worse off outside of the EU?
 
You voted leave knowing the issue that a border would be needed between Ireland and NI? And the problems that would cause?
 
And you REALLY believe that experts are full of crap?
 
With logic like yours no wonder the UK is in the state it is right now.
 
Tell me, how did you form your long held personal views?

Because it seems to me that every time we get involved in anything abroad it ends up in trouble. Our constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era is a prime example. I feel it would be much better to let others sort out their own troubles and try to put our own house in order at home. Also Globalism is all for the benefit of big business. We should wherever possible be as independent and self sufficient as possible.

[Not Now Kato]

If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?

The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
 
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level.  So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
 
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
 
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole.  But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
 
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?

When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.

So you believe that Scotland should no longer be part of the UK?  Nor Wales?  Nor Northern Ireland?  All independent nations?
 
You voted knowing England would be worse off outside of the EU?
 
You voted leave knowing the issue that a border would be needed between Ireland and NI? And the problems that would cause?
 
And you REALLY believe that experts are full of crap?
 
With logic like yours no wonder the UK is in the state it is right now.
 
Tell me, how did you form your long held personal views?

Because it seems to me that every time we get involved in anything abroad it ends up in trouble. Our constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era is a prime example. I feel it would be much better to let others sort out their own troubles and try to put our own house in order at home. Also Globalism is all for the benefit of big business. We should wherever possible be as independent and self sufficient as possible.

You haven't answered any of my questions AL, would you care to do so?
 
Oh, and here's another - what on God's Green Earth has our membership of the EU got to do with our 'constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era' ?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I don't get what you are saying AL.

Was prorogation about Brexit or not?

Calling Brexiters a death cult. We only want what we voted for.

Don't blame Remainers then. You should be blaming people like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris. They've voted done one deal and are taking their time with this one. It's their fault you're not getting what you're asking for.

I don't want a deal.

But then you're going against the will of the people as that's what was said, that they'd get a good deal for the country.

We managed well enough before joining the Common Market trading block which has morphed into a super state without anyone being asked.

No. We didn't. That was the whole reason we joined.

Every single one of the EEC 6 did far better economically that us from the mid-50s to the mid-70s.  That's not an issue for debate. It's an established fact.

[SydneyRover]

How can you have a conversation with someone that believes experts are full of crap? who do you listen to the idiots? no wonder we have brexit

[BillyStubbsTears]

Billy, stop panicing when something is said on the radio that frightens you, I certainly will not change the station I listen to, it is not as slanted as the BBC and gives both sides equal air time.
   The gentleman on the programme was a collator of all polls, and was talking about information taken since yesterdays decision, if you think he was talking b******s that is up to you, it is only the same as I think about the reams of posts on the Brexit subject posted on here.

Nobody's panicking Selby. I've said my piece often enough about Labour and polls.


And no. It's NOT the same. One is an opinion. The other is an objective fact.

As it happens, there appears to have been one poll conducted yesterday after the SC decision. It showed that the Tories had dropped from a 2 point lead over Labour to level.

So I'll say again. It looks like you didn't get the gist of what your man was saying, or your man was talking ba-baa.

[foxbat]

when the ' voice of reason ' is in fact not based on either knowledge or reason,  that is why we are in this mess.
Only way out now is a 'peoples vote ' , legally run  , not like the 2016 Frauderendum , when we can kick Brex(sh)it well into touch

[Donnywolf]

I despair and return again and again to both the big 2 Parties who keep saying its about time we "sorted" B****t out and then get on with bringing the Country back together

Are they for REAL ? It wont happen in my lifetime

If they get "it" over the line there will instantly be lets say 50% of the electorate (to be neutral) clamouring for a return to the EU. After all the (mainly) Tory MP's did not let the 75 Referendum result get in the way of their ideal of leaving the EU. It took them decades but hey they got there

If they dont get "it" over the line there will equally be hell on. Nobody gave a s*** in 75 with such a big winning marging. We just got on with it BUT with Social Media things are more upfront so today it would be a massively different story and there would be outrage

I always thought the vote was too devisive - and said so on here the day after the Referendum - and I predicted that eventually the Politicians would not go ahead with "it" and would throw the whole thing back to the people and say it was them (the people) who had demanded they be listened to.

I have not been proven right yet and may still be wrong but one thing for sure is this is a political s*** storm the likes of which (I suspect) nobody has lived through

Apologies as I have written that so many times on here and here is another thing I often say. Think of the times a new Party comes to power. They immediately blame the outgoing Govt often for 2 or even more Terms of being in power for all the ills they inherited.

They say "they should never have commited to HS2" as an example as it cost us x Billion and we had nowt to spend on this that or the other. Both of them do it and its often but not always an excuse to cover their current failings (remember I am saying both do it)

Can you just imagine what they are going say if we do or dont leave. Just think of how many decades of thay you (perhaps not me will have to endure)?

If we had left ..... blah blah blah

If we hadnt left .... blah blah blah

So long ramble but can anyone tell me just HOW they are going to bring the Country back together cos I sure as hell cant guess
Modify message

[SydneyRover]

Which side of politics is responsible for bringing us Poll tax, Austerity and Brexit DW?

I think when you work that out you'll see which side of politics cares more about itself than the country or you or I or anyone else then that should give you by default at least an idea whom you should never vote for.

[Donnywolf]

I have been voting now for 50 years and I know which side of the divide I lie on - and whilst being a bit presumptous - I know which side 90 % + of working people should vote for but dont

So I know the Party that brought your ills above to our doors and would never ever vote for them

However that was not my question - which is really to distill it down . How the hell will we ever bring the country back together given the present "crisis" where everyone (or 50% of everyone) wants one thing whilst "hating" either litrally or metaphorically the opposite 50 % who want something different

Neither Party will do it in my lifetime and the Electoral system will not allow the Lib Dems a fair chance as we dont of course have PR

[Axholme Lion]

If the decision is taken off us despite how we voted what is the point of voting?

The point of voting was to make a decision based on information available at the time.
 
Since then so much more has become known and the reasons some, (many?), people voted leave have been shown to be based on untruths - things that WE, the UK could always have done as members of the EU and within the EU rules that we helped to formulate, but chose not to at Government level.  So many of those 'reasons' are no longer valid as to why we should leave the EU.
 
Further, there were things, like the Irish Border, that were not made clear at the time of the referendum which have become patently obvious afterwards.
 
Things have changes significantly since 2016 to the point where we should be questioning that original decision and choosing what is best for the UK as a whole.  But we have a situation where most Leavers won't change their minds because they continue to believe, (and repeat in many cases), the lies that have been fed to them over the years. And most Remainers can't change because they know with reasonable certainty that the best deal with the EU, (our major trading partner), is the one we already have and that the country will be worse off no matter how we leave.
 
What is needed now is for both sides to tell the truth. That would, of course, mean the right wing media and ultra right wing politicians openly contradicting, (admitting?), the lies they have told - but that is not likely to happen, is it?

When I cast my vote in the referendum I didn't listen to the promises or opinions of any experts or politicians because most of them are full of crap. It was a choice and I cast my vote in accordance with long held personal views. I voted with my conscience in line with my beliefs. I believe in a independent nation, with our own manufacturing base. I always buy British when I have a choice. I would prefer us to be out of the EU and NATO.

So you believe that Scotland should no longer be part of the UK?  Nor Wales?  Nor Northern Ireland?  All independent nations?
 
You voted knowing England would be worse off outside of the EU?
 
You voted leave knowing the issue that a border would be needed between Ireland and NI? And the problems that would cause?
 
And you REALLY believe that experts are full of crap?
 
With logic like yours no wonder the UK is in the state it is right now.
 
Tell me, how did you form your long held personal views?

Because it seems to me that every time we get involved in anything abroad it ends up in trouble. Our constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era is a prime example. I feel it would be much better to let others sort out their own troubles and try to put our own house in order at home. Also Globalism is all for the benefit of big business. We should wherever possible be as independent and self sufficient as possible.

You haven't answered any of my questions AL, would you care to do so?
 
Oh, and here's another - what on God's Green Earth has our membership of the EU got to do with our 'constant interference in the Middle East in the modern era' ?

I believe in the UK.

No one 'knows' that we will be worse off, and if so for how long.

For Ireland what is the problem with the Common Travel Area?

I just think the world would be a better place if we all stayed at home, minded our own business and looked after our gardens.

[selby]

  Which side of the divide took us into an illegal war and whose economic policy's caused austerity? Sydney.  Which side of the divide raided and changed the rules on most peoples pensions and has cost the ordinary working man more than any Tory government since Sydney?
  Your much vaunted ex leader should be still doing time for the first event buddy, instead of going around spouting off against a legal referendum he doesn't like the result of. He needlessly cost British Soldiers lives.
  If he had put his name behind remain, and been more involved in the run up to the vote, he may have solved the problem by getting more people to vote to leave.